What is it you think makes some Jewish people support the state of Israel and others just not?

Jews don’t think monolithically – most of us think for ourselves.

Background: I lived in Israel for about 18 months, and have visited probably a dozen times. I have family over there (currently in their safe rooms because of the rockets).

Israel in 2023 is not Israel from the 1970s.

In the last 50 years, Israel has increasingly become right-wing religious, giving the country to the orthodox Jews who don’t even want to serve in the army. It stopped being the pluralistic country that I remember, and became – at least in Jerusalem – almost Taliban in terms of enforced religion. And note that the orthodoxization of Israel was permitted and enabled by – guess what – the Likud party, led by Benjamin Netanyahu.

He sold out to the religious minority in order to keep his political power as prime minister. Note that he is under indictment for bribery and several other charges, and should not be prime minister in the first place. (Sound familiar? He and Trump are buddies)

Finally, the Israel of 1975 wouldn’t have tried to rip up the basic laws in Israel and screw with the supreme court. But Netanyahu’s leadership allowed- even encouraged – that to take place. And it’s not over.

Bottom line, I was brought up as a strong Zionist in a strong Jewish family. But the Israel I grew up with is not the same one today, and I have a hard time supporting it.

As for the Palestinians: Israel avoided the problem of what to do with the population of Palestine areas for 50 years – that head-in-the-sand view (led by Benjamin Netanyahu and his right wing kin) got us to where we are today.

But this isn’t just Israel’s fault. Palestine hasn’t lifted a finger to move towards any sort of peace process for 40 years. So they both are guilty of neglect and status quo.

I agree with @elbanditoroso

@tinyfaery Perhaps you should consider differentiating between “support for Israel” and “support for Israeli government’s treatment of Palestinians”.

@elbanditoroso gives an excellent summary of how things were before last Friday. I don’t think the general feeling amongst Jews in the US is much different from that of the US government. We support Israel’s right to exist; we don’t think the right Netanyahu government is running things very well.

I agree too that Israel has created a lot of the problems of the last 50 years. They should never have held onto the lands taken over in the 1967 war. And letting Israelis build settlements in the West Bank is awful. My heart breaks for both Palestinians and Israelis and knee-jerk support of Israel exacerbates the situation. And I’m over 55!

It serves some political ends to present American Jews as a monolith but we’re not.

None of my Jewish friends support Netanyahu. Their reasons are the same as the ones I’ve been reading here in Fluther the past two days.

A significant correlate is political affiliation, which has its own underlying variables and motivations.

Take any group, and the more right-wing and religious they are, the more nationalistic and supportive of tradition and established hierarchy they generally are. This can mean being uncritical and defensive about things that are important to that person’s sense of identity.

Why the media paints Jews as a monolith supportive of Israel. I think it’s broadly two things:

The pro-Israel view might be less popular, but it’s more organised and motivated with established advocacy and community groups that influence media output and provide a go-to source for journalists wanting a “Jewish perspective”.

Journalists are lazy and go to the easiest source for Jewish views on Israel, which are mostly pro-Israel ones.

Do you mean support that Israel has a right to exist? Or, support all of the actions Israel takes? If it is the latter, it is the same as not all Americans agree with the actions the US takes.

Some Jewish people feel the Jewish people were on that land first and deserve it.

Some Jewish people feel the UN decision is a valid decision and so the state of Israel has the right to exist and protect its borders.

Some Jewish people are very upset with the settlements that go beyond the original borders and are quick to criticize Israel and especially they criticize the religious right-wing fanatics in Israel.

Some young US Jews have felt overall safe all of their lives and don’t think about Israel as being a place they can go to if and when our country wants to oppress and kill us. They may not fathom a situation where Jewish people would feel they need to leave the US. I think most Jews over the age of 50 think about this though, not just in the US, but everywhere. Most of us never feel completely safe, we have our antennae up all of the time.

Lately, in the US, the people more extreme to the left politically are very sympathetic towards the Palestinians to the point of being practically anti-Israel including some Jewish people. I feel most Jewish people are sympathetic to a point for the Palestinians, we want them to be safe and prosper, and stop killing themselves and Israelis.

It is such a long history and so many years now. There is a good episode (it might be two episodes) on the show West Wing that you can see on demand that discusses a lot of the difficulties in making a treaty between the Palestinians and the Israelis. It is a take off from the Clinton years. It is not in depth, but it is a good brief and easy to watch if you are interested.

That Jewish people disagree about Israeli actions and discuss it without some sort of blind allegiance I think is a good thing.

@tinyfaery Interesting that most Jews you know are observant Jews. Most Jews I know are atheists, even those who observe holidays. I know a very few who actually believe in God.

There is an old joke; here is a variation. When a Jewish atheist heard that the best school in town happened to be Catholic, he enrolled his son. Things were going very well until one day the boy came home and said he had learned all about the Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost. His father, barely able to control his rage, seized his son by the shoulders and said: “David, this is very important, so listen carefully. There is only one God—and we don’t believe in Him!”

(From https://religiondispatches.org/there-is-only-one-god-and-we-dont-believe-in-him/)

More seriously, the Netanyahu government is a travesty and has committed horrors and crimes. They are taking the Israelis down a very dark path similar to the path that Trump took the Americans in their treatment of undocumented migrants. The treatment of many Palestinians has arguably constituted war crimes. No question. Most Jews I know also feel this way (perhaps not the ultra conservative Jews, but I’m friends with very few of them). And, I still support the State of Israel, just as I support the United States of America.

Furthermore, people who use the Bibi government policies as justification of a mass homicide of concertgoers (even if it’s just shadenfreud) are just as reprehensible as Bibi.

I think you can be for something and against it at the same time. It’s really that simple. Like the way you can love a certain relative and be supportive of them but never support their stupid foolish ideas. Doesn’t mean you don’t love them or support them. You just don’t believe in what they are doing. I think oppression and violence are often not something one is supportive of and yet still find something to love and appreciate in one’s culture or faith.

You want to support the good but never what you believe to be bad.

@Caravanfan I thought maybe @tinyfaery used the term observant incorrectly. I assumed she meant they only do the holidays. Otherwise, it didn’t maje sense to me. I’m glad you mentioned it, I’m curious to know the OP’s answer.

Typo: maje should be make.

@JLeslie Goyim don’t understand Jews and what it means to be Jewish. They generally don’t understand how we can be observant, go to shul, participate in all the holidays, and yet be hard atheists.

I once was walking with an evangelical Christian friend of mine in front of the hospital. She did not understand how I could be Jewish and atheist at the same time, and when I told her probalby more than 50% of Jews she knows are atheist she didn’t believe me. I said, “Watch”. Walking on the other side of the grass was a friend of mine David. “Hey David! You’re an atheist Jew right?” He looked at me with a sour expression and said, “Of course!!”
I turned to the woman and said, “See?”

@JLeslie And I’ll just add that other religions also have atheist people. I have two good friends who are atheist Muslims.

@Caravanfan Oh yeah, I totally know Christians don’t understand being Jewish and being an atheist and that even Jews who go to temple or do other religious or traditional things can be atheist.

I have been known to say “shhh don’t tell the Christians that about 40% of Jewish people identify as secular or atheist.” I’m not sure if the evangelicals would be as supportive as they are if they really understood that. Maybe it doesn’t matter, because they still think we will help fulfill the prophecy. @tinyfaery isn’t Evangelical and has been on fluther with us atheist Jews for years though.

Edit: I have atheist Muslim friends, but they don’t really identify as Muslim in the same way as Jewish people do. They would say they are Persian or Pakistani and their family was Muslim but not religious.

I guess I used observant Jews wrong. They are atheists for the most part but participate on the holy days. Funny that most atheists I know were/are Jewish.

Who would ever think I am religious let alone Evangelical? hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I am a staunch atheist. Have been since I was teen.

@Kropotkin thanks for your response. A lot to consider. I also think the media has a lot to do with it.

I am most disturbed about the US Government unwavering support of the Jewish state. I have not heard one thing about the Netanyahu government being a problem. My congress people don’t speak about it either, and I come from the most liberal state in the US.

If most Jewish people have issues with Netanyahu why don’t we hear anyone speak on it?

Here’s an article in Politico reporting a Massachusetts representative denouncing Harvard for failing to shut down student protests that blame Israel for the Hamas attacks. The rep appears to be quoted as equating anti-Israel sentiments with antisemitism. Perhaps that inept assumption on the part of many is creating some of the controversy and confusion around this situation.

I anticipate being attacked on this list with people arguming with me and calling me epithets for saying this (I won’t engage on this thread—I’ve already experienced it), but Israel is the only democracy in the region. It’s certainly the only democracy in the Middle East. So they are worth supporting just for that fact, regardless of whether or not it’s run by Jews.

democracy