Was the targeting of civilians by Hamas when they attacked Israel considered war crimes?

Yes. Of course.

Terrorism or war crimes. Maybe it depends if you actually acknowledge them as political leaders, which I guess the world does now.

War crimes rarely get prosecuted, but it does happen once in a while.

I was watching the news last night (NYC news). NYC had big protests yesterday and one of the protesters quoted Madelyn Albright, who made a statement about it being ok to kill babies. I googled it and she did say it, which I was surprised that it was actually true, but I am wondering if they’re going to use that as justification.

Someone being investigated is completely separate. Humans are corrupt and even if not corrupt, there’s not enough manpower to actually hold every single entity responsible.

Half the world would be fined and in jail.

I would think any military of any country attacking civilians would be considered a war crime.

The words “war crimes” have been thrown around a lot the last few days. It’s helpful to actually read the law.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule156

It constitutes war crimes for these clauses
• wilful killing; (sic)
• extensive destruction or appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly;
• unlawful confinement;
• taking of hostages
• making the civilian population or individual civilians, not taking a direct part in hostilities, the object of attack;

Probably others.

Hamas isn’t specifically Gaza based. It is multinational, which makes it difficult to hold anyone accountable.

@filmfann Right. It’s a multinational terrrorist organization that has in its charter arguments that are rememiscent of Mein Kampf and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Here is a particular unhinged part, taken from here :

“For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realization of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

“You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.

No, Hamas is not a country’s armed military force.
It is a terror group, not bound by any articles of war. What they did was mass murder on a grand scale, so it cannot be a war crime.

Are we seriously asking if terrorism is legal?!

It’s forbidden by the Geneva convention if you were wondering.

@Caravanfan That is some insane asylum level crazy shit!

@filmfann Yeah, even I was surprised that a homicidal, racist/antisemitic and evil terrorist organization would be that crazy…

@gorillapaws And they’re allies with Iran, who could be a nuclear power soon. Just think-let’s say Iran develops a small nuclear weapon. or buys one from North Korea. They give it to Hamas, who smuggle it across the border to Israel. A truck on a few back roads later, a deployment in Tel Aviv or Haifa, and it’s all over.

I see that as a nontrivial possibility.

It is said that Israel is already a nuclear power so let’s not forget that.

@kritiper Of course they are. So let’s say Iran, through Hamas, deploys a tactical nuke in Tel Aviv. The crazy Netanyahu government retaliates by dropping one on Tehran. End of world.

End of world.

Maybe. It could just be the end of Tel Aviv and Tehran though. That scenario is a little different than US/NATO vs. Russia and/or China. Still terrifying though. All the more reason to move to a 2-state solution, restore the Iran deal where we have inspectors who can verify what Iran’s doing.

@Caravanfan So be it.
I have always thought that there would be a nuclear exchange between some governments at some point in my life.

While we’re on the subject of batshit crazy theories by world leaders, Netanyahu said in a speech that Hitler originally only wanted to expel the Jews from Germany, but the Holocaust was the idea of then Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini. Apparently this isn’t widely accepted by scholars of the Holocaust.

@gorillapaws I don’t really know the history on that, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there was some sort of coordination or relationship with him and Hitler. Antisemitism in the 1920’s and 30’s was getting really bad in what is now Israel. I mentioned on other Q’s my husband’s family emigrated to Mexico in the 30’s. They were not the only ones, lots of Jews left the area because it was getting difficult to live there and too dangerous. I don’t understand why Netanyahu would want to play down Hitler in any way, that does seem crazy, except that I guess he is trying to create some sort of link between al Husseini and Hamas? Was that the point?

@JLeslie ”... I guess he is trying to create some sort of link between al Husseini and Hamas? Was that the point?”

That’s essentially the analysis I heard on it. He’s trying to stoke anti-Arab sentiment with his base, essentially blaming the holocaust on the Arab people. Not unlike Trump and our neighbors to the south.

@gorillapaws That’s awful, but the Arabs at that time in the area were pretty awful to the Jewish people from how I understand it, so even without blaming an Arab for the genocide during the Holocaust in Europe, you can blame Arabs in the area for many thousands of Jews having to leave their homes. My guess is the Israelis already know that history. Israelis have their own experiences with Arabs and Muslims, and history that long ago doesn’t mean much.

I found this wikipedia. I didn’t read it all through. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini

Natanyahu does some of the same stuff Trump does. Dog whistles and using hate and fear to build loyalty.

Unfortunately, like most things said to stir hate, fear and conspiracies, they use a grain of truth and then expand it into all sorts of stories.

Yeah, it’s another fringe conspiracy theory. But it’s still not as badshit crazy as Hamas saying the Jews control all the money in the world. (If we do, I’m still waiting for my check)

https://www.yadvashem.org/blog/adhering-to-the-historical-truth-about-the-mufti-during-the-holocaust.html

@JLeslie I’m certain you’re correct about the antisemitism in the area at the time. It was rampant around the world (even the US). I think it’s more to the idea of getting current generation extremists riled up to hate Arabs.

@Caravanfan I agree. Hamas’ clams are even crazier.

@gorillapaws Your video was from 7 years ago. Israelis have Netanyahu’s number. Sure he has some supporters who think like him, and you have additional people and politicians who fell in line to help get him elected, but there are millions of liberal Israelis who think Netanyahu is horrible.

Right now Israelis are united in their mission to finally undo Hamas. Nothing else matters.

I think Hamas probably acted now because Saudi was in negotiations with Israel and probably Hamas felt if they don’t do something now they would lose their hold. That’s my guess, I don’t know what the experts are saying. They want Israel to react so they can get the world to hate Israelis and be sympathetic to the Palestinians and the Arab world in general to help them try to destroy Israel and the Jewish people.

I am not confusing Hamas with the average Palestinian, nor do I think all Arabs are the same, I am just saying what Hamas hopes in my opinion.

I think Hamas went too far, most of the world is horrified. It reminds me of Rwanda. The brutality, the depravity.

@JLeslie I think you’re probably exactly right.

Some of the rumors I’ve heard was that Hamas was not expecting the event to be as devastating and brutal as it was, and that individual Hamas terrorists went way beyond what they were supposed to do. They’re still 100% culpable, of course, but it changes the perspective of what their strategy might have been.

If those reports are true, and the extreme barbarity was not part of the original plan, then it does seem likely that these attacks were an effort to get back on the world stage. Netanyahu held up that picture of Israel with no Gaza or West Bank, essentially proposing the complete ethnic clensing of the Arab populations only a couple weeks ago. Though this attack has been in the making for years as some reports have claimed.

The thing I don’t understand is why the Israelis don’t flood the tunnels. It seems like a reasonable enough tactic to kill Hamas and not citizens.

@gorillapaws I don’t know about Netanyahu holding up a picture of Israel without the West bank or Gaza. When was this? What did he say?

I guess Israel is destroying Hamas Infrastructure. Hamas basically builds “military” installations under hospitals and adjacent to residential housing so when Israel goes after Hamas’ bases they are also supposedly committing crimes against the Geneva convention. Hamas is very purposeful. Hamas doesn’t give a damn about Palestinians dying. They encourage women to have babies to create suicide bombers.

I recently heard the BBC and NYT won’t call Hamas terrorists now. Seriously? I am not sure if that is correct. Supposedly, using the word terrorist would be too biased.

Eventually, I assume the Israelis will be going in on foot, but it seems like they are trying to collapse a lot of the buildings first. Maybe less places to hide if the buildings are flattened? I don’t know the strategy either.

@JLeslie “I don’t know about Netanyahu holding up a picture of Israel without the West bank or Gaza. When was this? What did he say?”

It was September 22. Here’s an article. It’s not JUSTIFICATION for the violence that followed, but it’s certainly a causal element.

I am willing to stipulate that Netanyahu is a mother fucking crazy right wing asshole sonofabitch.

In many ways he’s worse than Trump. Because Netanyahu is smart as fuck and he’s articulate and charismatic.

@gorillapaws I googled a little, and some say his map was to show the alliances or treaties with “greater Israel” and the other Middle Eastern countries in green. That he was including Gaza and the West Bank and not getting rid of those regions. Others of course say he has a plan to take over the lands of Gaza and the West Bank.