Can Israel free Palestine from the grip of Hamas?

What is the percentage of Palestinians who support Hamas compared to those who disapprove of Hamas?

If some Palestinians support Hamas’ war against Israel, should those Palestinians decry how Israel is responding?

Would they prefer instead that Israel do the same brutal acts of Hamas decapitating babies and killing the same number of civilians and then call it quits… for now?

I’ve read close to 60% in Gaza support Hamas. Like any poll, it depends how the question was worded. It is not a small percentage of people even if that number is off by a lot.

I don’t the percentage for all Palestinians, were you wanting to include those living in the West Bank?

^^Every Palestinian anywhere who support Hamas’ main objective and its methods.

Well, whomever didn’t support them before, probably is going to support them more while Israel is destroying Gaza and bombing Lebanon.

Yes.

@mazingerz88 I think the percentage is much lower for all Palestinians, but still too high to dismiss as some small minority. Every Palestinian I’ve known thinks Hamas is horrible and part of the problem, but I only know maybe ten personally over the last 30 years and only two live in the region, the rest are here in the US, and they are very educated or their spouse is.

I wrote on a different Q that Nas of Nas Daily who has 60 million followers made a statement after the attack on Israel that he no longer considers himself Palestinian first and Israeli second, now he feels Israeli first. He was raised in Israel. I don’t know if he is changing his mind with the retaliation. His degree is from Harvard.

NO ONE should be surprised at Israel’s response. Israel consistently over the last 75 years retaliates with extreme measures. Now, Israel will probably have to shift to preemptive strikes unless some governing body can get the Palestinians to stop stockpiling arms and stop their attacks.

Pfft. That is not their goal.

^^So what is the goal of which segment of Israeli population that you know about? Or is it the goal of all Israeli citizens?

And would you also happen to know what the goal of Hamas is and its supporters in Palestine?

@janbb wrote: Well, whomever didn’t support them before, probably is going to support them more while Israel is destroying Gaza and bombing Lebanon.

That statement encompasses the problem.

Israel has been comparatively gentle in the past. (Yes, I know all about the various Hamas-incited wars over the last 10 years) But by not striking a compelling blow in 2015, 2018, and more recently, the Iran-Hamas-Hezbollah axis – now helped by Russia – has gotten stronger and more brazen.

It is not in Israel’s long term interest to be as gentle as they have been previously, because it doesn’t work. You’re just asking for another war in 3–4 years.

The Palestinians have a decision to make:

Support Hamas and get blown up (and lose houses, and starve, and lose loved ones) every couple of years.

or

Talk with Israel and work on some sort of semi-peace that keeps you alive.

Sure, lots of details. But the main issue for the Palestinians is how much Hamas are they willing to take.

If you think that continuous carpet bombing will turn the civilian population against its leaders, know that this approach has never worked in history.
“Look what you made me do” rarely works outside the domestic setting.

Israel missed their chance to stand down and solve this another way. It’s too late now, they have to launch a ground invasion, methodically eliminate Hamas and then occupy the Gaza strip indefinitely.

If you didn’t see Fareed Zakaria’s show 360 this past Sunday, I recommend watching his interview with Ehud Barak if you can see the show OnDemand. The interview is near the beginning of the show. Barak talks about prior negotiations and the dynamic with other leaders in the ME regarding the Gaza situation.

@ragingloli Does constantly sending rockets and suicide bombers usually work?

Edit: @Blackwater_Park They can change course, but they probably won’t. They need to follow through I guess to look strong, but if the Arab leaders would step forward and do something to govern Gaza and promise to control Hamas it could work.

@JLeslie
Clearly not. Why are you even asking?

Hamas essentially is their gov’t

@ragingloli That is exactly what Hamas does. You seem to be saying Israel is the whole problem, did I misinterpret that? Imagine if there was no iron dome.

“You seem to be saying Israel is the whole problem, did I misinterpret that?”
That much is obvious.

@ragingloli You don’t think any part of the problem is the Palestinians since 1948?

@JLeslie When you say Israel does things to look strong, to whom do they believe they have the need to look strong for?

And how is that going to lead into Israel having a peaceful existence?

@JLeslie
You misinterpreting what I wrote is what was obvious. Even with that last response you repeat that.

@ragingloli Maybe spell it out for me.

You would misinterpret that, too.

@JLeslie @ragingloli is saying that carpet bombing civilian targets don’t turn the bombed civilians against their leaders. They are also saying that suicide bombers do not achieve geopolitical strategic objectives.

I have had many Palestinian patients. If it comes up I tell them freely that I am Jewish. More often than not they would hug me and say something like, “You are my brother.” No, they are not supporters of terrorists.

But the answer to the OP is no, of course Israel can’t do that.

@Caravanfan Me too, I actually have less reservation telling someone who is Palestinian or any Arab I am Jewish than telling someone who wears a confederate flag t-shirt.

No way in Hell…

Tunnel systems as used by Hamas are extremely difficult to counter. I think militarily, it gives them a near impregnable defensive advantage.

Try dislodging 30,000 or so armed fanatics in about 300 miles worth of deep tunnels that are largely immune to any ground attacks.

I’m really not optimistic of them being removed by force. I think the current strategy in Gaza will only create new Hamas recruits.

Hamas has a lot of outside material support from some rather cynical states that don’t actually give a damn about Palestinians, which is also helping them stay in power.

Even if they kill every Hamas fighter, the sentiment will persist (possibly under a new name). Occupied people resist their occupiers. It’s human nature. I can’t think of counter examples in history. Either Israel goes full genocide and kills them all, or they realize they have to return the land the’ve been illegally settling and begin the process of peace in earnest.

@gorillapaws Hamas won’t stop after the settling is reversed. Possibly, Hamas will have fewer supporters if the Israelis clear out of the settlements, but Hamas doesn’t agree with Israel having a right to exist. If the Palestinians were living a happy overall safe and prosperous life then fewer of them would support Hamas, but I don’t see how that is easily achieved in Gaza. If Hamas keeps firing rockets and doing attacks on Israel, that small strip of land remains very unstable. The size of Gaza is about the size of the community where I live. I can only imagine what it must be like in Gaza.

The whole settlements issue (by Hamas) is a smokescreen, not to be believed.

Hamas wants to get rid of Israel completely, make it Judenrein, just like Hitler tried to do. Settlements is a step to that goal, not the goal itself.

Let’s say that Israel stopped building settlements. Hamas wouldn’t go away. They would have something else to gripe about and make their national goal. Keep in mind that Hamas is getting its money (and leadership, and guidance) from Iran, and Iran wants Israel to disappear.

Disappearing Hamas is ultimately the answer. But it’ss going to take years and a lot of dead terrorists.

@JLeslie “Hamas won’t stop after the settling is reversed.”

They certainly won’t stop until that happens. You can’t use force to cajole an occupied population into liking their occupiers. Name one time in history that ever worked? It’s shocking that that’s even an argument. “We need to keep committing war crimes because if we stop some of them will still hate us.”

At this point, I don’t think the rockets are nearly the threat they used to be with the Iron Dome. How many Israelis have been killed from rockets since 10/7? If expanding the Iron Dome even further is possible, I 100% support it. I don’t think you appreciate just how asymmetrical and oppressive the relationship is.

@elbanditoroso “Let’s say that Israel stopped building settlements. Hamas wouldn’t go away. ”

Israel at a minimum needs to LEAVE the occupied territories, and pay reparations for the war crimes committed against the Palestinian people (a good starting place might be the total sum of the GDP of all of the settlements since 1967). They are ILLEGAL under international law.

@gorillapaws why should Israel leave the territories? So that terrorist groups can be even closer to the border under Palestinian/Iranian control?

Sounds like suicide to me.

Note that Israel left Gaza in 207 – Palestinians took it over – and the result of that is seen today.

Getting out of the territories makes it easier for Iran, Hamas, and Hesbollah. Bad idea.

@elbanditoroso “why should Israel leave the territories?”

Because it’s not their fucking land!

@elbanditoroso “Note that Israel left Gaza in 207[sic]”

It’s been under blockade since then. They can’t export anything, can barely fish, can’t travel. It’s a prison.

Can Israel free Palestine…Hahahahahahahahaha! Oh wait, you were serious? No. If they could it would have been done 60 years ago.

I’m through with this discussion, @gorillapaws – we have such fundamentally different outlooks that I’m not going take any more time with you.

@elbanditoroso That’s fine. History will look back on those who supported war crimes and genocide and those who opposed it. I’m fine with where I am.

@gorillapaws They can’t travel? Something like 17,000 Gazans cross into Israel every day to work.

People in Gaza can’t take a vacation? Can’t emigrate? Cross into Israel or Egypt and fly wherever they want to go? I really don’t know the answer to that. I assume they can. I would think Israel would be just fine with Gazans leaving for a new life on new lands, why would they inhibit that?

I remember there was a fisherman issue, I remember hearing about it. Supposedly some of that was loosened up around five years ago I thought, but maybe it is still an issue, I don’t know. Why is Israel so controlling of the seas? I assume they are afraid of arms trading and being attacked from the sea, but I really don’t know that entire issue.

Genocide is a powerful word to be just throwing around.

@JLeslie “They can’t travel?”

Not freely. Here’s the UN’s report on it from January.

This is a reasonable summary of the situation:

“Background: Palestinians are banned from leaving Gaza via Israel, including for passage to the West Bank, unless they obtain an Israeli-issued exit permit. Only those belonging to certain categories, primarily traders (including de facto daily labourers), patients and their accompaniers, and aid workers, can apply for such permits. Other people are not eligible for a permit, even if they do not pose a security risk, according to the Israeli authorities. In most cases, the Israeli authorities do not provide specific reasons for the rejection of an application. If an application is approved, the permit holder may cross through the Israeli-controlled Erez crossing, which operates during the daytime, from Sunday to Thursday, and on Fridays for urgent cases and foreign nationals only.”

It is my understanding that the vast majority of the people leaving are day-laborers, the same person exiting multiple times counts as multiple exits in the data.

@gorillapaws Why would a day laborer exit multiple times in a day? They are working all day in Israel. Do you mean truck drivers? I doubt Gaza has a lot of exports to Israel.

Israelis can’t go to multiple countries and people who recently visited Israel can’t go to multiple countries. Should those countries change their policy? This is the nature of the Middle East unfortunately. It is also the nature of any country to regulate their visas and borders.

Does Egypt let Gazans cross freely? Are you critical of the Egyptians too?

Little Gaza is bordered by Israel and Egypt, and some are calling it a prison, and Israel is little also, and bordered by too many who want the country to disappear, and even two and three countries away.

It’s a clusterfuck.

Bombing destroys hearts and minds it does not win them over. Who could ever have thought otherwise. Frankly, if this sort of bombing is what it takes for Israel to survive it would be better had Israel never been created and I am not antisemitic.

And then there’s this.
https://ktla.com/news/local-news/studio-city-family-targeted-in-home-invasion-suspect-shouts-free-palestine/

Iranian born Mandana Dayani this morning on Morning Joe on the link below.

https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/-we-are-actually-terrified-i-am-a-voter-co-founder-shares-fears-over-growing-antisemitism-196447301836

I feel like the protests that are pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel are similar to Trump throwing around “build the wall” and “people coming across the border are criminals.” They are inciting terrorizing Jews and harming Jewish people. There are other ways to ask Israel to not respond as they did. The way it is happening on the streets and campuses completely forgets what happened to the Israelis and Jewish people.

@Caravanfan I heard about that. Confused people acting impulsively here in America. It’s very sad.

No one forgets about what Jews have gone through, it’s just that there is no justification for what Israel is doing. And the irony is astounding. Many people are talking bout it. No matter the past, there is no excuse for this.

As the days go on I am more and more disgusted by everyone using the past as an excuse. Fuck that.

^^No justification? How about rage? When your baby’s head is chopped off in front of you?

So you admit Israel is just full of angry warlords, and have no real justification, especially since they are doing the same and worse to the Palestinians. Cool cool.

^^Rage brought upon by somebody chopping your baby’s head in front of you is enough real justification.

Remember Hamas and Iran knew what would happen if they attacked Israel. Just like Japan and Pearl Harbor.
War is not good for any living thing but Israel didn’t start in in 625 AD nor 2023.

^^Oh the past doesn’t matter. Raging after your baby’s head is chopped off in front of you is not justified.-~

@mazingerz88
“Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, ISIS, al-Qaida. They may be watching this right now. Our military should not be mistaken for a cable news gabfest show. We don’t care what you look like. We don’t care who you voted for, who you worship, what you worship, who you love. It doesn’t matter if your dad left you millions when he died or if you knew who your father was. We have been honed into a machine of lethal moving parts that you would be wise to avoid if you know what’s good for you. We will not be intimidated. We will not back down. We’ve seen war. We don’t want war. But if you want war with the United States of America, there’s one thing I can promise you, so help me God: someone else will raise your sons and daughters.

We fight so our children never have to. We fight for one day when our children and our enemy’s children can discuss their differences without fear or loathing. We fight so that anyone out there thinking about raising arms against our citizens or allies realizes the futility of attrition against a disciplined, professional and lethal force built to withstand anything you can dream of throwing at us. Americans want this kind of country, Americans want this kind of world, and we stand ready to defend it, to protect us, so help us God.”

https://www.legion.org/magazine/246813/medal-honor-recipient-david-bellavia-americas-warrior-class

EVERYONE CAN GO FUCK THEMSELVES!!!!

Gaza is being DESTROYED and you are still justifying it because of the past and all of your RELIGIOUS BULLSHIT! THERE IS NO GOD. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO LAND WHERE PEOPLE ALREADY LIVE. Israel is committing genocide and war crimes in front of our faces and still you justify it.

I do not think I can ever come back here. You are all morally bankrupt and care more about bronze age mythology than people. You care more about the past than the present. Even if there is a heaven, none of you are going there.

^^Fuck yourself. Get a good grip while at it.

Wow, this subject, across the board, has gotten out of control. The slaughter of civilians, no matter who they are is egregious, and meeting slaughter-of-innocents with more intense slaughter-of-innocents is no better, no matter who started it.
How self-righteous of so many to sit in their living rooms and point fingers.

I am only able to help by donating to and supporting humanitarian, third party organizations. I hope like hell you guys are, too.
Geez.

@tinyfaery Being Jewish is not only about the religion. It is about the Jewish people. You know almost all of the Jewish jellies are atheists.

Israel is not just about Jews being there first, obviously first doesn’t matter around the world. The Native Americans were on US soil way before the Europeans, and we don’t give all the land back to the Native Americans although that is complicated and upsetting too.

Forget 100 or 1,000 years ago. The Jews were given Israel by a UN decision in 1948. You seem to be saying Jewish people weren’t there at the time. Yes they were. Plus, there were Jews driven out just 10–15 year before. My husband is Mexican because in the 1930’s his father’s side was driven out of what is Israel today. Jews were killed or driven out of Iran, Palestine, Lebanon, in the early 1900’s you don’t need to go back to 500BC.

Do you want the Palestinian people to continue living under Hamas leadership? Hamas swears to kill all Jews and get rid of Israel and keeps the Palestinians from prospering. Hamas steals the funds given to Gaza to increase their war machine.

That’s fine if you don’t want Israel to be so aggressive with their bombing, but are you saying Israel shouldn’t exist at all?

Hamas uses religion to control people. 40% of Israelis people are secular just like Jews in the US. The country is more secular than the US.

Also, the count of how many Palestinians have died is likely wrong, but it’s still very upsetting. Getting death counts from Hamas is obviously not yo be trusted. They reported 500 at the hospital that now sounds to be one of their own rockets. New numbers show less than 300. Still not ok.

Edit: Egypt and Jordan and no other country is taking in the Gazans right now while the Israelis will be risking their lives to get to Hamas and try to get the hostages back. Both Israelis and Palestinians suffer for the war games of the region. They are the pawns.

Is it possible to have a discussion without people telling others to fuck off in all caps? Just wondering.

My father, over 65 years ago, said “that area of the world has been fighting over sand since the Hittites and Egyptians !”

The irony of Americans being outraged about war crimes or innocent lives lost is astonishing. Bush pulled us out of that agreement in 2002 to avoid hypocrisy and guilt in an international court. They also agreed terrorists ‘don’t count’ regarding war crimes.

No American ever faced an indictment before a world court for the dropping of two atomic bombs on Japan or the firebombing of Tokyo or the carpet bombing of Dresden. Not to mention Kandahar and many, many others. Call it defending our allies or democracy all you want. Our birth certificates make us all guilty by association in that aspect. Not to mention all the governments we broke, displaced innocents, etc…all to secure our own interests.
Regardless of who we elect it will continue. Ukraine has been accused of war crimes , too, by the way. But no one wants to talk about that do we?
I love my country but we are not innocent in any way, shape or form.

@Caravanfan “Is it possible to have a discussion without people telling others to fuck off in all caps? Just wondering.”

Nope, it’s really not anymore.

These people act like we are all ok with Gaza being destroyed the way it is. None of us wanted Hamas to slaughter innocents either. I know none of us want innocent people killed, regardless of what side they’re on. I’m no military expert on what it takes to stop Hamas, neither are these people speaking in all caps and/or telling us to go f ourselves. They seem to need someone to be angry at.

This is a video from 2017 that shows the attitudes of Israelis towards the Palestinians. It’s possible these were cherry picked out of thousands. I really couldn’t say other than it appears to be accurate, candid and not doctored/selectively edited in any way to give the audience a misleading interpretation of their respective beliefs.

Also in fairness, this is a somewhat similar video from 2015 with the same caveats interviewing Palestinians on the street on their perspective.

^^In other words peace is impossible.

Jews and Muslims lived together for hundreds of years. It wasn’t always rosy, but I think they managed to make things work. I think if the world can force Israel to obey international law, the long healing process can begin, but it will never be peaceful as long as you have an occupier and occupied dynamic.

^^There will always be Muslims hell bent on destroying Israel. It seems to me. Whatever they do. You don’t really believe Israel giving up the occupied land will make a difference do you?

Maybe you are hoping there will be enough Muslims who will work very hard to stop their fellow Muslims, those who wish to see Israel destroyed no matter what when the territories are given back.

Seriously?

@gorillapaws Idealistic and unrealistic. What type of government are you going to have? Secular democracy with equal rights? It’s not going to be like America, which has it’s own problems anyway. The Arab Muslims will quickly become the majority, the country would likely fall victim to a theocracy in my opinion, which is never good, or at least some power given to very religious Muslims. Israel already has trouble with the ultra-orthodox Jews, but the types of problems are different.

You are talking about a one state solution, the Palestinians won’t do it and allow Jews to stay, you saw they want Jews that came from other places in the last 75 years to leave or all Jews to leave. They want to go back to 1947 forgetting that Jews were forced to leave in years just shortly before that. It was like they had ZERO knowledge that there was antisemitism in the region before 1948.

The Palestinians want to go back before 1948, why stop there? Why not go back to the beginning of Judaism? Why not just go back 75 years before 1948?

At the same time, like I have said many times, I understand the Palestinian perspective, and why they don’t think it’s right that the UN makes a decision to make a Jewish state.

Both groups have been pushed around by each other and outsiders.

Believe me, I have said for years I wish the Jewish state was not created there. I think it would have been better to get half of Alabama (chosen at random) or half of Germany, or both. Half of Germany to punish Germany, but Jews would not have wanted to go there, so that wouldn’t have worked.

Here’s a documentary from 2007 interviewing former female IDF soldiers about their stories.

@JLeslie It’s a fact. Muslims, Christians and Jews did coexist for a long time in that region. I think a 2-state solution makes the most sense if the world decides they want to preserve some kind of Jewish ethnostate. If the tunnel is not possible or impractical, we could always shrink Israel’s borders back to the original 1948 and let them keep West Jerusalem with some kind of protected land bridge to access it.

The more I learn about Israel, the more grossed out I become. They have a very polished team that makes the rounds in the mainstream media, but when you see the barbarity that the occupiers inflict on the occupied, it’s impossible to see that and think Israel has any kind of moral high ground at this point. Occupying another people requires you do dehumanize them and it ruins you. Are there any examples in history of occupiers attempting ethnic cleansing who are celebrated?

Arabs do coexist with Jews in Israel.

Jews didn’t live there in complete safety. Through the years they were killed, hated, oppressed, and then some years were ok for a while.

Your video of the Palestinians showed mostly Palestinians wanting to rid the whole area of the Jews. The one guy that was kumbayah we can all live together, was a guy who lived in the US for eight years if I remember correctly. Years ago I was talking to a Lebanese man in Macy’s and he said everyone in the Middle East should spend five years in the US.

I want what you want. A two state solution that will work for peace. I just have trouble seeing it like I used to. The more I learn and the more I see, the less I feel it is possible. The extremists won’t do it.