Why are so many people saying "Free Palestine!" after the Hamas attack? Why weren't they saying that prior to the Hamas attack? Aren't they just responding to a Call of Action by a terrorist group?

The living conditions in Gaza have been abysmal BUT if you want my support, don’t get videotaped kidnapping women and children, and taking them into your fucked up country.

People have been saying “Free Palestine” for decades.

“I am non-ideological, except for the ideology of sticking to facts.”

“Talk about rewarding evil.”

Yeah. Okay.

Why weren’t people chanting “time for peace” a long time ago and putting pressure on the Palestinians and Israelis to make a treaty. Hamas would never and will never make a peace treaty. They need to go.

A lot of people seem to not care that the Oct 7th attack was nothing less than barbarism worse than any Game of Thrones episode.

I’ve always wanted a two state solution, but I just don’t see what will change significantly for the people in Gaza with the two state solution. They still live on the small strip of land. The barriers will still be up, it will be an international border. There is no way in hell Israel will agree to a right of return. I have no idea how many Gazans lived within the Israeli border before 1948, I assume it actually wasn’t many.

Something like 12,000 Gazans were crossing into Israel daily to work already. As far as I know Israel doesn’t stop the people in Gaza from traveling or emigrating to other countries.

For the Palestinians to be more free Hamas needs to be crippled. Why aren’t the Gazans rising up against Hamas. Hamas is a significant part of the problem.

You DO have a horse in this race, either as an American or other, suppporting on side or the other, or just as a sentient being on the planet. :)

@JLeslie A lot of people seem to not care that the Oct 7th attack was nothing less than barbarism worse than any Game of Thrones episode.

Dude, have you watched that show?

Yes, I have.

There are 2 possible outcomes where we never see a slaughter like 10/7 again.

1. Israel commits a genocide and fully ethnically cleanses all Arabs from the “Greater Israel” geography. They’re currently pursuing this as revealed by leaked documents and public statements by Israeli leaders to this effect.

2. Israel ends the illegal occupation as a STARTING point for a peace plan. and enters into peace negotiations in good faith*. This is what “Free Palestine” protests are calling for. It’s the only way to prevent the killing of Jewish people in the long run that doesn’t make Israel a terrorist state worthy of being treated like North Korea.

I don’t think this is about “rewarding evil” but more of a recognition that Israel has been a brutal oppressor for decades and that history has shown that oppressed people will commit heinous acts of terror in retaliation. Times are changing and people have access to information like they’ve never had before. We’re no longer trapped by the perspective of corporate media that has framed the situation in Israel in a particular way over the years.

*Israel has never done this in their entire history, and have always asked for higher proportion of the land than their population. Jews were actually a minority in the proposed Israeli boundaries in 1948, which is why they massacred thousands and forcibly evicted hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and relocated them to places like Gaza. You can’t have “Jewish state” when Jews are a minority of the population.

Some people were. Social media just didn’t notice.

@gorillapaws Israel isn’t proportional for the Jewish population in the greater Arab lands of the Middle East? Remember Jews lived all over the ME and were driven out all over the ME also. The Brits and UN divided up the lands and gave the Jewish people Israel.

I’m not saying the Palestinians haven’t been pushed around, they have, but it’s not just Israel doing the pushing. The Palestinians and Jewish people have a shit ton in common in terms of history and trauma. The Arabs who united with Israel and took allegiance living in Israel faired pretty well. They serve in the Israeli army, they have a strong Israeli identity.

@JLeslie “Israel isn’t proportional for the Jewish population in the greater Arab lands of the Middle East? ”

What I’m saying is that the Balfour Declaration proposed giving Israel 55% of the land for a Jewish state but Jews were only a small fraction of that at the time something like 10–12% of the overall population in the area. The Palestinians didn’t find that to be very fair. And even within the boundaries of the original state, the Jewish people were a minority. Future peace plans put forth from Israel never really addressed this point. They BEGIN from the point of having purged Palestinians from large parts of the territory—often with extreme brutality (based on eyewitness accounts from perpetrators and victims and other primary sources).

Many Jews wanted to immigrate to the new nation of Israel from all over the Middle East. There was also severe retaliation on Jews in other Middle Eastern countries following the Nakba.

It was Britain that kicked things off, primarily based on an anti-semitic desire to reduce their domestic Jewish populations and the UN that ratified the boundaries. I’m not saying Israel is to blame for things it didn’t do, but the intention for ethic cleansing was there from the outset. They were the aggressor party from the beginning. Here’s a quote from David Ben-Gurion in a 1937 letter to his son.

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places…. And, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places- then we have force at our disposal.”

He also said:

“Does the establishment of a Jewish state [in only part of Palestine] advance or retard the conversion of this country into a Jewish country? My assumption (which is why I am a fervent proponent of a state, even though it is now linked to partition) is that a Jewish state on only part of the land is not the end but the beginning…. This is because this increase in possession is of consequence not only in itself, but because through it we increase our strength, and every increase in strength helps in the possession of the land as a whole. The establishment of a state, even if only on a portion of the land, is the maximal reinforcement of our strength at the present time and a powerful boost to our historical endeavors to liberate the entire country.”

The point is to take the rose-colored lenses off when it comes to looking at the state of Israel. They’ve been horrific, committed terror and have NEVER been held to account by the international community. None of that justifies 10/7, but it’s not “good Israel” vs. “evil Palestinians.” That’s propaganda. It’s evil Hamas fighting evil Israel with terrorism and Israel fighting back by massacring Palestinian civilians intentionally (many times over at this point) to create an opportunity for expansion of their territory.

Israel doesn’t want to defeat Hamas. If they did, they’d be storming the tunnels with special forces troops and drones and using the billions of dollars in military tech they receive from the US every year. The civilian casualties ARE intentional. This is what genocide looks like—and we’re helping them do it.

Many nations created Israel to entice Jewish people to move. I usually say many of the UN countries voted in favor of Israel to purge their own countries of Jews. There was still plenty of antisemitism. There were Jews driven out of Palestine not long before the UN decision. Do they count?

I understand why Palestinians feel it’s unfair, that’s why I have sympathy for their perspective, I always have.

I don’t think the civilian deaths are intentional, but there might be some apathy, which is very sad. Also, the number of deaths being quoted doesn’t separate out Hamas soldiers (for lack of a better word) and leaders.

From the Israeli perspective they are limiting civilian deaths. The numbers could easily have been ten times what it is. There are 2 million people in Gaza, killing 6,000 or 8,000 isn’t going to eliminate the Palestinian population, but at the same time it is a lot of deaths. I’m hoping for a cease fire and some sort of way to solve the current situation, but Israel is unwilling for now to only accept a short term solution, they want this to be the last time because what Hamas did was so horrific.

You say Israel has the power of the US behind it, but Hamas has Iran, Russia, Hezbollah, and those countries do not ask for peace or want peace, they support jihad defined their way, which is cleanse the Middle East of everyone who isn’t Muslim.

Does Hamas do anything to try to make a treaty with Israel? I’m agreeing Netanyahu has been part of the problem, but both sides are a problem.

The people in the settlements attacking innocent Palestinians are criminals in my opinion, like I said I think they should be arrested and put in jail.

Bill Maher. https://youtu.be/wnl243DjsUE?si=j5OKTY37SGH6TSiz

I don’t agree with everything he says, but he makes some worthwhile points.

This guy explains why other ME countries don’t want to take in Palestinian refugees. I don’t know if all of the history is correct. https://twitter.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1720755123805196510/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1720755123805196510&currentTweetUser=MarinaMedvin

@JLeslie I respect you and agree with a lot of what you have said. But I absolutely believe the civilian deaths are intentional and I absolutely believe Israel’s goal is to level and overtake the land of Gaza.

My guess is that most of the people chanting “Free Palestine” are on TikTok and other forms of social media and their feed is mostly comprised of on-the-ground, traumatizing video of civilian and child deaths, wounded children covered in dust and debris crying out for their dead parents and siblings, hungry and ill people with no source of clean water. My guess is that people calling for “Free Palestine” do not conflate the average Palestinian (or Arab or Muslim) with terrorists. My guess is that they are watching videos of kind, loving men digging with their bare hands for any remnant of their family, of their home, running dead and wounded children to the hospital, praying and chanting and reciting poems, calling for peace. My guess is that they are watching videos of Israeli defense forces cheering the deaths of Palestinians, dancing and celebrating their “successes” and see little difference in behavior and attitude between them and the terrorists. Because that’s what social media algorithms do – they push you further and further into your bubble of information. And you don’t see conflicting sides unless you seek them out yourself.

That’s my best guess, because that’s what I’ve been watching for the past month.

And I wish it wasn’t necessary to reiterate, but it is – caring for the survival and freedom of Palestinians does not mean that I am anti-Semitic. I have many people in my life who I love and respect very much who are Jewish. Caring for Palestinians does not mean I support Hamas or terrorists – what they have done and continue to do to both Israelis and their own people is horrific and vulgar and atrocious.

And to be clear again, I am seeking out information contrary to that which is filing my social media feed. I am following the links and watching the videos posted by my Jewish friends. I am finding Israeli and pro-Zionist and politically neutral accounts to find balance and try to understand why each side sees things so differently.

I heard something on NPR today that was a quote from an Israeli father whose daughter was killed who has become friends with a Palestinian father whose child was also murdered. I don’t have the exact words but he said something like, “It’s not a football match; there are no sides to choose. There is only the choice to work towards peace and the end of injustice.”

I think there are so many voices that are being silenced and there is so much gray area in the conflict that it is pointless to post about it on social media and so I generally refrain. But clearly, the slaughter of innocents and the destruction of cities is morally wrong.

Social media is a terrible place for nuance and I find a lot of nuance here. But I agree completely that we can all grieve the loss of life of innocent human beings and loss of homes, religious buildings, universities, etc.

@Cupcake I consider this social media too!

I care about and am heartbroken watching the Palestinian families being harmed. Of course their loss and pain matters.

When I explain or defend Jewish people and Israel it is not to say Palestinians deserve to be harmed or killed. I have not one ounce of retaliation or revenge in my head or heart.

This is about dismantling Hamas who treats Palestinians horribly and wants to kill all Jews and eliminate Israel.

The Palestinians and Jewish people have been pushed around in the ME for as long as I can remember. They have that in common.

@janbb I agree! To clarify, by “here” I meant the topic area, not Fluther.

@JLeslie “This is about dismantling Hamas…”

Why do you believe this to be true?

According to Euro-Mediteranian Human Rights watch, an estimated greater than 92% of all deaths in Gaza are civilians. Israel has dropped the equivalent of 2 nuclear bombs worth of explosives on a population that’s mostly women an children. They’ve killed more civilians than the fucking Russians (who are intentionally targeting civilians) have in nearly 2 years over the course of less than a month. Israel has murdered more children than the total of all armed conflicts across the entire globe since 2019, and it’s not slowing down.

So why would anyone hear that and come away thinking that what’s happening has anything to do with killing Hamas? The US couldn’t kill off the Taliban after 2 decades and trillions of dollars. The goal isn’t to kill off Hamas, it’s to depopulate Gaza and annex the territory for themselves. And every kid or woman they massacre, is going to generate at least as many new sympathizers for Hamas.

If this were about dismantling Hamas, the IDF would be be storming the tunnels with special forces and killing the terrorists. I don’t think any honest military strategist would argue with a straight face that what the IDF is doing is designed to primarily fight Hamas. Hamas will be the last fucking people alive in the that godforsaken place if Israel keeps up the current strategy.

At what point do we treat Israel as the terrorist state? How many kids do they have to bury alive? When does the word Genocide become appropriate?

I don’t know what will wind up having been the right answer. I want there to never be any wars.

Here is a clip today from an interview with the son of the Hamas founder. https://youtu.be/bKQrBdWNIBo?si=O0ZV5BD50hcggFEG

I thought the Israelis are in the tunnels now. Some of them have been killed engaging with Hamas operatives while on the ground in Gaza. I do not know all of the details. In the tunnels I would guess Hamas has an extreme advantage over the IDF.

The Israelis were viciously attacked by effectively what is the government of the Gazans, they voted Hamas in. As far as I know the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank has done nothing to stop Hamas or help with negotiations for a peace treaty. What should Israel have done after the attack? Nothing? If there were a way to get Hamas just by arresting them I would be all for it. I have no idea if the strategy of bombing the buildings was necessary, I have not heard one military strategist say that the Israelis could have reasonably just gone into the tunnels to get Hamas, so I am assuming there was a reason for it, but I admit to not having all of the answers.

In Ukraine many of the women, children, and elderly were moved to other parts of the country or out of the country, millions were taken in by Poland. It seems to me if Egypt would let Palestinians into their country it would help Israel get to Hamas and get the hostages back. Part of the problem I guess is how do they distinguish between Hamas and Gazans who do not work for or with Hamas.

The link I just provided the son speaks more than once in the clip, it isn’t very long.

Here is one more interview with him talking about the Gazans will celebrate on the streets if and when Hamas is destroyed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2BSDLFVT74 Of course, those who lost family and their homes have devastating losses, but anyway this is his view. I don’t claim to know what will happen.

Omg Mahr is such a stooge. His argument is that the state Israel is good and deserves your support in all it does, because it is “western” and the people of occupied Palestine are not good or worth supporting because they are not “western.” Where did John Locke advocate for apartheid again? What simplistic claptrap.