Do YOU think the Jewish people are the same as a nationality?

No, not anymore than I think of “Christian” as a nationality, or “Spanish speaking” as a nationality, or “blond” as a nationality.

@canidmajor So, do you see being Jewish as purely a choice?

How do you explain genetic tests like Ancestry listing Ashkenazi Jewish? Should it not be listed?

Again no right answer, I’m just curious how people think about it. Even Jewish people have varying views on the topic.

Yes, @JLeslie, in the purest interpretation, I see it as a choice. Obviously, such a choice is heavily influenced by emotional, familial, and community environments, but a choice, nonetheless. I have Ashkenazi Jewish ancestors, which I didn’t know about until after I had my child, and I wish I had known so I could have tested for specific genetic anomalies, like Tay-Sachs. I myself am not Jewish.
Do I think it should be “listed”? Like in what? Ancestry.com? 23andme? Not necessarily, in fact I abhor the concept of a registry like that of any kind, unless it is wholly beneficial to the registered ones. And that doesn’t seem to ever happen.

@canidmajor I didn’t mean registry, I meant results given to the individual who took the test. Should Jewish not be listed in the results and only list the countries or region of the world?

This is mostly a matter of Jewish self-identification and what the label means to the person identifying as Jewish.

It’s a religion, it’s an ethnic group, it’s cultural group, it’s even a nationality. It’s any of those, none of them, or all at once.

@JLeslie a “list” that is in a database that can be accessed by authorities, can be classified as a “registry” given the opportunity.
And no, I don’t think the Judaic connection should necessarily be listed, especially since Jews tend to get targeted. As do Muslims.Etc. Etc.

I think of Jewish as an ethnicity. We have a common history and some distinguishing values.

I also think of blacks, certainly those living in the U.S., as being an ethnic group. Whether or not they can be considered as a separate race is immaterial. What matters is a common history, heritage and way that they are treated.

Agree with @Kropotkin.
Depends on the person.

I consider a Jew to be someone who adheres (or aligns with) the Judaism religious beliefs. It is not limited to one nation nor to one race. I guess technically it could also be anyone that can trace their lineage back to the original Jews.

There is no such nation, so no. There’s one officially Jewish nation, which is called Israel.

I think of Jewish mainly as a religion, and also as various different cultural and ethnic groups in different places, that share some history and culture and religion.

Something like that, though I know I am not particularly knowledgeable about the many details of the various Jewish communities around the world.

I don’t. I don’t see Jewish people as ethnic either. Genetically there is no test that tells you if you’re “Jewish.” Only a few genes were loosely connected to some specific populations that were traditionally associated with known Jewish ancestors. I guess the old saying that if your mother was “Jewish” you are Jewish stands. People can simply claim they’re Jewish, and there is no way to prove or disprove that assertion unless you know their deep ancestry. Does a belief in Judaism make you “Jewish?” IMO it does if there is no other universal discriminator. What if someone comes from a Jewish family or has Ashkenazi ancestry but they don’t practice Judaism? Are they Jewish? I’m not sure. They seem “Caucasian” to me.

Judaism can be thought of as being simultaneously a religion, a nationality and a culture.

Throughout the middle ages and into the 20th century, most of the European world agreed that Jews constituted a distinct nation. This concept of nation does not require that a nation have either a territory nor a government, but rather, it identifies, as a nation any distinct group of people with a common language and culture.

If you are referring to a nation in the sense of race, Judaism is not a nation. People are free to convert into Judaism; once converted, they are considered the same as if they were born Jewish. This is not true for a race.

Nationality can mean a couple of things, including citizen of a nation or member of an ethnic group. Jewish people meet the latter definitions.

I would say it is similar to being Polish or Italian with the caveat that diaspora is a far more prominent feature of Jewish history. That’s also how I would explain allowing for physical and cultural differences among Jews in different countries. I also imagine the hypothetical Iraqi and German would think of themselves as part of the same people.

Oddly enough, I just watched this lecture on “All Jewish History in Less Than an Hour,” which means I know a little more today than I did yesterday.

Never as a nationality. I see it as a faith, and often colloquially used to refer to ethnic Ashkenazi Jewish people and their culture (e.g. Yiddish expressions, food, music, etc.). I imagine there are many other groups of Jewish people (primarily in the Middle East and Africa, but possibly elsewhere) with other ethnic identities. I honestly don’t know much about them or how large of a percent they represent relative to the Ashkenazi. I have spent very limited time outside of the US though so I imagine that has colored my views on the topic.

Thank you all for your answers.

One thing I always say to Jewish people who “deny” any association as a Jew, because they do not practice the religion or some other reason, but they have Jewish parents, is it doesn’t matter what your religious beliefs are, if you are born a Jew the antisemites will still hate you and kill you. It is different if no one has practiced Judaism in the family for generations, but now with the genetic tests it is an interesting situation.

I think of Jewish people as an ethnic group, but also I say the phrase “the Jewish people” usually in reference to the Jewish people having existed for over 5,000 years. We were in many parts of the world, because we were either forced out, or we moved to be safer, or moved for opportunity. Jews don’t convert people, you can convert into the religion, but Jews did not spread the word and actively try to convert people, so most Jews are from a line of Jews.

In the US ⅔’s of Jews are Ashkenazi Jews, so that is why Americans associate Jews with being white as opposed to what is now called “brown” to describe people from the Middle East, even though technically Middle Easterners are classified as White. My husband is Mizrahi Jewish on his dad’s side, which means from the Middle East or Northeast Africa, but Mizrahim fall under the umbrella of Sephardic. Sephardic Jews were from the Iberian peninsula. Israel today is about 50% Ashkenazi and 50% Sephardic.

I googled a little and found this wikipedia page on genes and Judaism if anyone is interested, It gets kind of technical. Interesting, weird and a little scary to me that researchers spend time on it. I was recently on a thread on facebook in a Yiddish group where they were talking about that some of them or their children having slanted eyes, especially as babies and young children. One woman posted a photo of her son and said people would ask where they adopted him from. Most of the members believed it to be from the Jewish history in parts of Asia. Some blamed Genghis Kahn. Some members were afraid that the thread would blow up quickly, but instead it turned out to be a serious discussion. My dad actually used to be called Chinese eyes by some schoolmates when he was very young. My dad’s family is mostly from Latvia.

@canidmajor You are talking about reasons to fear some sort of registry, which many Jews do fear. You obviously had the test done, so your information is out there on some test result somewhere. Everyone who takes one of those ancestry tests now risks being tagged Jewish. The genetic results are part of science, and as @Blackwater_Park it is tracing back genes, which actually includes both the maternal and paternal side. Here is an explanation from 23 and me if you are interested.

@LostInParadise Good point about Blacks in the US being an ethnic group. I don’t think when they get genetic tests done that the labs return a label of Black though, it just says what parts of the world they are from like all other groups. except Ashkenazi Jews as far as I know. I don’t even know if Sephardic Jews get tagged Jewish. My SIL had her genetic testing done and I know it came back exactly as we thought it would for what part of the world, and I don’t remember if she said her West Asia percentages also said Jewish, I don’t think it did.

@Forever_Free I understand your point. It is true people can convert into Judaism. For me, I would accept that person as Jewish like any other Jewish person, but can you convert out of being Jewish if you have the genes and your family were all Jewish before you? You could say anyone can become an Italian citizen, so then you would have Italians who trace back family for hundreds of years and also new Italian citizens. The person who is Chinese Italian, are they now not Chinese? They look Chinese, they still have some cultural or ethnic practices and commonalities with their history of being Chinese.

@Jleslie, no, I have not had any test done because there are not legal safeguards in place to protect my genetic identity.

@canidmajor Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you found out you were Jewish through genetic testing. We have the same concern. I haven’t done it either, and one major reason is not feeling it is protected well enough.

I suppose all three. I’ve known more non-practicing Jews than practicing, but to me it’s a personal self-identifier.
If you told me you’re from Israel, I wouldn’t assume you’re Jewish. Only the ones who wear the clothes and hair would I assume the religion. Hasidic I think it is?

I think of it ias a religion and a culture. I know there are Jews from all over – Russian Jews, Ukrainian Jews (Zelenskyy), Turkish Jews, Lebanese Jews (Neil Sedaka), Polish Jews, Sephardic Jews, etc.

I think there are many cultures and identities that call themselves Jewish. The extent to which they consider themselves a nation has to do with their concepts of connection and self determination. I am sure some Jewish groups consider themselves to be nations, so I shall oblige their definition.

I’ve never been into genetic arguments of identity. Race is essentially meaningless as a genetic concept, anyway. Genetics spreads faster than culture, and is dispersed more randomly. I know people get huffy about this when they claim Jewish status based on their grandparents religion, but this has a more important cultural connection to who they are, than their genetics does.

There is also an ethnotheocractic state called Israel, whose people most likely consider themselves a nation. Though this state wields international influence, and offers citizenship to all those with the proper bloodlines, or willing to do the religious compliance activities, the state of Israel is not in charge of Judaism, and does not have a monopoly on definitions,

The answers on this Q really have me thinking about the Israel Palestinian war, which was not my original intent with this Q. It’s becoming clear to me that a lot of people see the Palestinians as a people, but don’t see the Jews in that way, and that partly might influence how they perceive the “right” to the land of Israel.

@Smashley Since you bring up Israel, there are 2 million Arab-Israelis, most of whom are Muslims, some are Druze, some Bedouins, some Christians. It’s a huge number when you consider Israel’s total population is about 9 million.

@JLeslie – this is true, though I doubt those other millions would consider themselves of one nation with the Jewish people of Israel, the beneficiaries of the ethno-theocratic project. There are the mostly Jewish, real citizens of the state, and then there is everyone else, so I don’t consider that amalgamation of people in nearby places to be a nation.

And for clarity, I only use the definition of nation meaning a group of people with a shared identity, not the political entity better described as a state.

@Smashley I agree the identity is probably different for Arab Israelis than Jewish Israelis. It does seem some of the Christian, the Bendouins, and Druze do seem to feel a strong Israeli identity and allegiance in terms of it being their country and fighting for it with the army.

@JLeslie So how different is Mizrahi in terms of food, music, and other things? As someone who’s been fortunate enough to attend many Passover Seders would I, for example, recognize the dishes being served at a Mizrahi Seder or would it be very different? Would they break glass at a wedding? Would we expect to hear “Hava Nagila” and see the bride and groom hoisted into the air on chairs? Is that “Jewish culture” or more exclusive to “Ashkenazi Jewish culture?”

@JLeslie – yes, I agree that some people may be fighting, serving and holding out hope for a panisraeli identity, and some idea of a state that sees everyone as equal, but the reality, and majority opinion of the group in control, is that those considered Jews by the state are the upper caste. The state and caste system can be defended by elements of the lower castes, but it is not a model most of the lower castes will ever celebrate, unless they are able to join the upper caste in some manner.

@gorillapaws Sephardic/Mizrahi Jews allow many more foods for Passover. The Ashkenazi don’t allow rice, corn, beans and lentils, just to name a few. I found this article: https://www.pbs.org/food/features/passover-seder-menu-with-sephardic-flavors/#:~:text=Ashkenazi%20foods%20are%20more%20familiar,boils%20down%20to%20the%20weather. I’m in a Jewish food facebook group and during passover people trade recipes and ideas, and people are careful to say or ask if they follow the ashkenazi rules for passover when asking for or giving recipe suggestions.

So, as an example my husband’s Mexican family can eat corn tortillas during Passover, but my grandparents would see that as breaking the rules. His family can keep eating their rice and beans, but my family couldn’t.

As a generalization Sephardic food is what we think of as Middle Eastern food and Askenazi is European, I would say emphasis on Eastern European. I’m sure it’s because of where they lived in the world, climate, food availability, etc.

As far as every day kosher regarding dairy and meat, the Ashkenazi are supposed to wait 6 hours after a meat meal to have dairy. I’ve read a few different things regarding Sephardic, like you have to wash your mouth and hands after meat to have dairy, and I’ve also read waiting 3 hours. It all probably varies a little based on interpretation in various communities. This rule would apply for Passover too.

Needless to say, dessert at Sephardic meals have more chance of being more delicious. My mom always said if they are serving beef or chicken at the wedding the desserts won’t be very good. Lol. She’s a chocaholic and cares about the desserts.

From my personal POV, the Sephardic menu is better for health, taste, and convenience.

@Smashley I don’t think the intention of the majority in Israel is to have a caste system, although I understand it sort of works out that way. Arabs can have almost all the same rights, but there is some discrimination against them, which can result in harassment and sometimes lack of opportunity. A lot of it has to do with fear or not trusting, which is understandable, both groups have trouble trusting each other. The Arabs in Israel can go to university, serve in the parliament, use the healthcare system, so it’s not apartheid like some want to suggest, but for sure not total equality, and should be addressed.

As far as Netanyahu, I have a lot of problems with him, he aggravates the situation making things worse.

If the Palestinians were in charge of the entire area I doubt they would treat the Jews equally, especially since they are more likely to govern with a lot of Muslim religion mixed in, which would be more restrictive not only for the Jews, but for the Muslims too. I could be wrong, but that’s my impression. Not that I think all Palestinians in the region want that.

I don’t think the religion equals the nationality, any more than the term Jewish (or any other term that relates to the religion/culture) would or should be equivalent to Israeli (or any other term that relates to Israel).

On a related note, my wife, an amateur genealogist, has come across several instances where a Catholic Hispanic family has certain seemingly Jewish traditions passed through the generations that nobody can say why. For example, a family with whom we are close friends never eat pork. When asked why, the mother said there was never any pork in their house, and no one can say why. When their genealogy was investigated, it was discovered that their ancestors were converso, or Sephardic Jews who “converted” to Catholicism during the Spanish Inquisition in order to escape persecution!

@Strauss It’s well known during the Spanish Inquisition Jews converted or left the country. Many who stayed still practiced some of the traditions in their homes. Some traditions held on even if they didn’t identify as Jews.

I wasn’t talking about being Jewish as equating to being Israeli, but I do think I should have been clearer about that in my OP. I just meant Jews as a people the same way in America we think of Italian-Americans or Polish-Americans. Maybe even Black African-Americans, but I’m not sure if I consider being Black the same, because I simply don’t know how they feel about it.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

@Blackwater_Park What does that mean?

It is unexpected