Social Question

filmfann's avatar

Christian Trump supporters: does his newest ad move his religious supporters from Hypocrisy to Blasphemy?

Asked by filmfann (52486points) January 14th, 2024

In Trump’s newest ad, he is portrayed as being sent by God.

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72 Answers

chyna's avatar

His religious supporters haven’t seen him for what he really is, so this ad won’t shake their faith in him either. I don’t understand the blind faith people have in him.
Yes, I want my candidate to win as I always have in all the years I’ve been able to vote.
But I have never had blind faith in any of them. I saw their faults and misdeeds. trumpers wont admit to any misdeeds he has committed.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@filmfann you are trying to assign rationality to people who are fundamentally (!) irrational.

LadyMarissa's avatar

Jeremiah 17:5
King James Version

5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

Modern translation:

Jeremiah 17:5
New King James Version

5 Thus says the Lord:

Cursed is the man who trusts in man, and makes flesh his strength,whose heart departs from the Lord.

I feel that I’m seeing Blasphemy. I’m sure that they will DENY my thoughts as they assure me that I’m going to Hell for NOT supporting him!!!

JLeslie's avatar

I have said since the beginning of Trump running in politics that he is a televangelist.

I haven’t seen the ad, but he is portrayed as ordained by God for a long time now. Lots of it floats around social media. I see him in poses that remind us of Jesus. He uses language that speaks to evangelicals. Many evangelicals talk about him being part of the prophecy to bring the second coming. That’s nothing new.

Probably a lot of his most fanatic “religious” supporters aren’t really mainstream church going Christians, but more on the fringes or don’t even go to church, but rather listen to their social circles and right wing radio and self identify as Christian and evangelical.

Trump knows it’s easy to lead the religious fanatics by the nose. He can say almost anything and they will stay faithful. They have to. If they don’t their world crumbles, they are devoted.

My most religious evangelical friends who were serious church goers favored Ted Cruz (who I think is horrible) back in 2016.

ragingloli's avatar

The man is the embodiment of the seven deadly sins, and they had no problem with that. In fact, they considered him to be sent by god for quite some time now, the only difference is that the Orangutan is now embracing that delusion for campaigning purposes.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Trump is sent by the Christian God. I swear to God.

JLeslie's avatar

I wonder if the war in Israel even gives him more adoration. The fanatics are all riled up now with the left wing showing great sympathy for the Palestinians, and some antisemitism in some spots, and the far right has always been obsessed with support for Israel. Trump delivered naming Jerusalem the capital in the very early part of his term.

seawulf575's avatar

As usual, no citation.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, they were raised to overlook or excuse the nasty parts of the Bible so this is no great leap.

seawulf575's avatar

As usual, the OP on one of these threads puts out a question about Trump that is factually wrong and they give no citation so you can actually see what is really happening. And all the lefty jellies pile on as if what was put forth in the question was truth.

And once again, I will do the homework that none of you can figure out how to do and show how demented you all are. You, of course, won’t like this so you will attack me for damaging your little fantasy bubbles. So let’s get started!

I found this that shows a video that sounded like what the OP was referring to. Since they couldn’t be bothered with a citation of their own, you’ll have to deal with mine.

This article shows that there was indeed a video that put forth as suggesting Trump was put in place by God. It was not, however, an ad. It was not, however, created by Trump. It was made by someone completely without his knowledge who then posted it on their website, The Dilley Meme. Trump heard about it and reposted it on X. Some others liked it and reposted it as well. But again, this was not a campaign ad, it was a meme. The fact that losers on the left want to try making a big deal out of it shows how demented the left has become.

But let’s get to the other part of the question: how do Trump supports feel about it? It should be noted the OP, in their own Trump Derangement, gave you two options; either hypocrisy or blasphemy. I’m guessing this is coming from someone that is not very religious at all and has disdain for those that are.

But I digress. How would a Christian Trump support feel about this? Well, a GOOD Christian would go to the bible to see what God said about things like this. If Trump had said he WAS God, you’d have a really good case for blasphemy. But he said he was SENT by God. This actually is addressed in the bible. Romans 13:1 says Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. By that understanding, Biden was sent by God. Bush I and II were both from God. Obama was from God. Clinton was from God. Every POTUS and every world leader was sent from God. Even leaders like Hitler and Stalin were sent by God. Because all things happen for God’s purposes. That isn’t to say that he puts only the brightest and best into positions of power because he likes them or even feels they are good men or women. He does it because he wants their direction and leadership to move things in a way that is pleasing to him. Putting a crappy leader in place, such as Biden, might happen to allow people to see the culmination of their straying ways. He might put someone like Biden in place to destroy our country because he is done with the USA as a world leader. He might want to put Trump back into office to further split the country.

We cannot know the mind of God beyond the hints we get from the Bible. But he isn’t wrong, from a Christian perspective, to say God sent him. He MAY be wrong because of the reasons he gives for that choice but, again, no one knows that for sure besides God. And if Trump is claiming things that are contrary to what God wants, it will come out. It always comes out.

MrGrimm888's avatar

As a thought experiment, may I offer a hypothetical concept?

What if there is no God, anymore than there are Dragons, or Eight-armed Elephant headed deities?

As nonsensical as the Christian God is, it’s just as fanciful and impossible as any others.

Would a person even be on the ticket, if they were a Hindu, or Buddist? (We already know how our weak minded “birthers” felt/feel about Obama, when it was just a really stupid rumor he was a practicing Muslim.
Talk about lack of citation…

I would love it if the theists here, could imagine how it would feel to watch their president quote Muhammad, Allah, other deities or worst of all a belief in no god telling you that those beliefs shape their decisions.
☆As an atheist, it’s REALLY FUCKING SCARY watching the people who run our government, or any government, making decisions based on a “faith.”

So much for separation of church and state…

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I’ve heard that kind of thought before. But let me ask: why is it bad? Let’s say there is no God. Yet there are stories that relay His exploits for many different religions. But let’s say they are all made up. They are all written as guidelines for morality and how to live to be the best person you can be. So if people act in a may that is moral, why is that bad? Even if they use a book that is based on an imaginary creature?

This is the part I just don’t get. Now I get if people are using Christianity, for example, (could have been Islam or Judaism as they all believe in the same God…the God of Abraham) and committing gross atrocities and saying it is God’s will. But it seems that if someone believes in Christianity, they are probably more upset about that than atheists. But you bring up an interesting concept so let me turn it around on you a bit. What if you have someone running the government that has NO belief in a set of morals everyone can see? Doesn’t that set you up for the idea that morals are malleable, that they can claim just about anything is moral? You would quickly find chaos and mayhem in society and in the world…much like what we are seeing since Biden was elected.

I’ve had the morals discussion before. Many Atheists claim to be Humanists…doing what is right because you are human. The problem with that is that humans, when left to their own devices, do some seriously shitty things to each other. Look around the world and in history. People are just plain nasty. And many that are that way believe they have the moral right to do so. Hitler felt he was doing a great thing by trying to purify his nation…getting rid of all the polluting Jews. Blacks, Asians and Latinos as well.. His view of Humanism let him do that.

At least if someone claims to be a Christian, you can open up a book and see if he/she is living up to it or if they are just plain hypocrites. You can have questions like this one.

Smashley's avatar

There are no Christian Trump supporters. There never have been.

filmfann's avatar

@seawulf575. “I’m guessing this is coming from someone that is not very religious at all and has disdain for those that are.”

I really feel no need to correct you on my faith, or my politics, other than to say you’re wrong. Wrong ballpark. Wrong box score.

seawulf575's avatar

@filmfann Sorry. Maybe it was the crappy tone of the question that led me to believe that. Maybe it was the limitations of 2 possible options, neither of which is actually driven by the Bible. I dunno. It could be any number of things that led me to that conclusion.

KNOWITALL's avatar

It’s weird to be but God can use anyone.

@JLeslie Obsessed with Israel? Pretty rude and untrue. We are to protect Israel and Jews. You’re welcome.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I don’t consider you to be extreme or a fanatic. Are you taking that statement personally?

I’ll try to use better words to be careful not to offend, so I appreciate your comment.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie You know I have given my view on the Israel/Palestine thing. Personally I feel we should just stay out of it altogether. You know my views of the Pro-Palestinian protests as well. Hell, we have a ton of them and still the radical Islamists are attacking us. I don’t give a hoot what Trump thinks about things like that. But I did notice that Russia attacking Ukraine and Hamas (with Iranian backing) attacking Israel only after Trump was out of office.

Now something I DO respect Trump for was him starting to get countries in on the Abraham Accords. He was working towards peace, Biden and the left are working towards war.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Yes I take my religious committment to Israel very seriously so thats pretty hurtful for you to make it sound weird or tawdry.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Again, I was not talking about you, but I understand why it seems that way. My apologies for not being very specific. What exactly is your “religious commitment to Israel.”

@seawulf575 How was Biden working against peace in The Middle East?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Accepted. I’ll pass on discussing further.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie By being a weak-ass POTUS. These radicals know they can do whatever they want and he will dither and do nothing. Same reason Putin invaded Ukraine.

Forever_Free's avatar

I think there was a guy who did this in Europe in the 30’s and 40’s.

LifeQuestioner's avatar

The only ad I’ve seen of late started off saying that he was created by God. But I thought that was pretty silly to be making a big deal out of, because if you’re a Christian, like I am, you believe God created everybody. By that reasoning, I could put out my own video saying I was created by God.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 So your argument is Hamas did a brutal attack now, because Biden is weak? Or, your argument is Biden can’t control Netanyahu? What exactly are you saying?

elbanditoroso's avatar

@JLeslie I would agree that Biden can’t control Netanyahu. But this is nothing new; no US president has been able to ‘control’ any Israeli prime minister. They are independent countries with wholly different imperatives, after all.

Hamas attacked because Netanyahu was weak, not Biden. Netanyahu was so busy trying to take over the Israeli supreme court that he took his mind of being a prime minister.

JLeslie's avatar

@elbanditoroso I agree no president is going to control Israel.

Netanyahu was distracted, and I think he is so full of himself and encouraging the ultra orthodox it’s a mess.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Because Biden is weak. Because he unfroze the billions for Iran. Because he has shown he has no clue as to what is going on in his own house, much less the rest of the world. So the radical Islam factions see no real problem with attacking Israel. They figured that Biden wouldn’t give military assistance (and they were right) to Israel and that he would try to tone down Israel from any relations (which is also correct).

Hell, Biden even supports both sides of the conflict. He support Israel because he is told to and he is still pushing to hobble them and give humanitarian support to the Gaza Strip. Nothing like pushing both sides to tone things down, eh? That’s great foreign diplomacy, right?

We can expect to see even more of these sort of things and you can bet they will pointed at the US. We are already seeing increasing violence in the protests in the US. Huh. Charging the fence, tearing it down in an effort to get to the POTUS. Sounds like insurrection to me, doesn’t it? Or is this just another “mainly peaceful protest” the left loves so much? Not sure what the difference is, really. Attacking police maybe? No…the protesters did that too. Ya got me there! But they know they can get away with it. Zero arrests even though the Capitol Police Chief says violence will not be tolerated. Apparently either this isn’t violence or it really will be tolerated. From those favored by the left.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 You know I have some problems with the far left, so we will have some agreement. Biden is not part of the far left though.

I really doubt a Republican in the White House would have deterred Hamas. Hamas wants violence. They love all of the death. You are saying a Republican, or let’s say Trump, would have given more fire power to Israel and not cared about any humanitarian aid to The Gazans? You think that is a deterrent to Hamas? They do not care how many die, they only care about getting the land. They are religious zealots and obsessed about getting back control over “greater Palestine.”

Hamas struck now because treaties among more countries in the Middle East were getting very close.

The Arab countries need to push forward with the peace process in my opinion and let Gazan refugees into their countries or put them in the West Bank temporarily and then push for a two-state solution. That’s what I think, but it still very well might not work no matter what is tried. No one wants the Gazan people, because all countries don’t want to deal with the Hamas among them.

The current conflict is horrific. There are 250,000 Israelis that had to relocate, that’s the figure I heard, plus the Gazans in dire straights and being killed in large numbers. Gaza had a tremendous amount of destruction and will have to be rebuilt. Something has to change, it can’t go on like this.

Has Trump said what he would do to fix it? Just wondering.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Wulf. You seem to understand exactly what I’m saying. You’re just on the other side, where people are trying to make America a theocracy.
No offense, but referencing a Bible, as a guide for morality IS the problem.
Slavery, rape, murder, child sacrifice, and any number of other “bad things,” are NOT only not forbidden, it is common content.

I don’t plan on starting a religion based on “Game of Thrones,” because I can only understand wrong through story.
I wonder, are there any similarities in Christianity, and Scientology?...

I’m not even going to get into the FACT, there are multiple versions of the Bible, in which some “morals,” are different.

Next time you need a source, I’ll reference “Fahrenheit 451.”
Then maybe you can see the problem with book burning. Which you coincidentally support, by pushing the current conservative agenda.

Thanks for likening me to Hitler, by the way. I’ve been called worse.
Ironically, it’s he and the GOP, both support book banning. Not me.

Honestly. I get no pleasure from talking to theists, in a negative way. I often ask their opinions, to try to understand them.

I observe a LOT of cherry picking. As I must assume Trumpers do.

Which verse says “grab ‘em by the pussy?” I don’t know which version you adhere to. Is it in all the transactions?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 You got all that right.

Don’t think he has been in a church is 50 years or more, last time he held a bible was after he had a minister gassed for a “photo-op” ! ! !

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Hamas could have attacked at any time…this is true. Except they didn’t attack while Trump was POTUS. What is the difference? Preparation? Okay, what helped them get prepared for this attack? Backing from Iran. How did Iran suddenly become able to help Hamas? Because Biden gave them billions of dollars that were frozen. You see how all this comes back to Biden.

And your claim that Biden is not a far left is partially true. His policies are increasingly dictated by the far left. But I don’t believe Biden has enough cognitive ability left to make any decisions. He is a puppet. He goes where he is told, says (or tries to say) what he is told, signs off on decisions for which he has no understanding, all because someone tells him to.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Yep, things like slavery, rape, murder, child sacrifice, and other “bad” things are talked about in the bible. They were very commonplace in the day. But have you stopped to see what God said about all these things? He never asked for child sacrifice…other gods did. And He abhorred it. He says we are to take care of the children. Slavery was a way of life. But what did God say about it? He said that owners should take care of their slaves and see to their needs. He said that slaves should obey their masters. Far different from what happened in the 16th-18th century, eh? One of his Big 10 commandmants was that thou shalt not murder.

Just because something is written about in a book doesn’t mean you get to make assumptions about the characters in the book without knowledge. THAT is cherry picking. And there are so many other moral values that are pushed in the Bible that are “great” things.

You seem to have the belief that if someone gets a job they have to put their religious beliefs on hold. I’m not suggesting that we put a Bible in every office…nothing of the kind. But nonetheless, you continue to make my point. You can bring up an issue and say to me “what does the bible say about that!”. The fact that you can point to a book to see what the values in it say about something you don’t like is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Now, go to an Atheist or a Humanist and try that. What? They don’t have any book? Well what are their morals based on? Their own feelings at the moment? How well they can try justifying to themselves when something they are doing is acceptable of not?

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I don’t see Biden as a puppet, but I do think he sometimes caters to the more left of the party than I would. There are Republicans who placate the “base” of that party when I’m not so sure that is where their hearts and heads really are.

As far as the Iranian money, I’m not sure where I am on that. Most people have been criticizing Netanyahu for giving money to Hamas. Similar to the Iranian money it was to help with humanitarian issues.

The money to Iran was to free hostages and went to Qatar. Supposedly, it was already Iran’s money that we were holding. From Qatar it was supposed to only go directly to vendors supplying goods and services not the Iranian government. Did the money actually provide new and extra services? Or, just free up millions for Iran to use for their war machine in the ME? I don’t know the answer. Not sure if that money made a big dent in how much already being spent on arms and tunnels.

Sucky situation for sure.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Let’s get to the issue. The money Biden freed up was held in S Korea. It was frozen because there are so many sanctions against Iran that the banks were afraid if they gave them the money it make them in violation of the sanctions. The sanctions involved Iran’s pursuit of making nuclear weapons as well as their support of terrorism. The money was indeed part of the prisoner exchange and was put into a bank in Qatar with the rules that it could only be used for humanitarian uses…food, water, medicine, etc.

But think about this for a moment. If someone suddenly gave you a big pool of money and said you could only use it to pay your mortgage and buy food, what happens to the money you are already spending for those things? It is freed up. You get to use that for whatever you like. So it is effectively giving Iran the funds. The deal of putting it in Qatar was a political move so the Biden administration can claim they are only helping humanitarian issues.

I’m not sure why Obama and Biden have worked so hard to give this money to Iran. It makes no sense.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I touched on that. I said I don’t know if the money was clearly marked for additional aid that would not have been supplied otherwise. Even if it was, I agree there is room for mishandling and freeing up other moneys. I still don’t know if it is a drop in the bucket regarding funds. Still, I too question the whole thing.

The Arab world is coming together somewhat realizing Iran and the Iran allies are a threat. Coming together means allying with Israel and the US. The dynamic in the ME is so complicated.

MrGrimm888's avatar

No Wulf. You mentioning “The Bible,” or “a” book.
When it’s not.
Christianity’s holy book, is the Bible.
But. You conveniently left out that
A. The Bible has multiple versions, with different people changing things to suit them, throughout the years.

B. The religion seems to use multiple other sources, to come up with the “refrigerator stew,” that is the basis of the religion.

C. The Bible is a work of literary fiction. Even the authors (pleural,) are unknown. Some are convinced that Shakespeare wrote some of it. (A playwright.)

And by the way, your understanding of atheism, is far worse than my knowledge of The King James version.
And you’re absolutely right about me, in that I don’t know what “God” says about some things. The fact he’s such a nice guy is well proven by you, when you mention that God wanted people to be nice slave masters.
No. Your God, seems like a horrible creature. The jost of the Bible, is to enslave the human mind to carry Christianity (like a disease, no virus,) with them as they migrate and/or reproduce.
It’s a quite effective trap. It plays on mankind’s biggest fear, death. Heaven. Really?
All I have to do is whatever this man-made rulebook says, and I will get to spend eternity in a 5star resort in the sky. Wow. Why that’s much better than the fear of the unknown. I’ll have to study that book, and ALL other lost scrolls etc. After a while, it won’t make any sense. But if I don’t cling to this idea of an afterlife, I might be left out.

There are thousands of fiction novels, and literary collections. I don’t read them all. As for the Bible. “The King James” version is hard to avoid. It’s in almost every hotel/motel nightstand.
Every hospital. Every drug rehabilitation facility. Every homeless shelter. Gosh. If I know humanity, I’d be a fool to be bound by something so clearly being forced on me. If you look into ANY cult, you will see the similarities.
Bad people, looking for vulnerable people to control.

Many of the stories in the Bible are hypothetically explainable, without any divine intervention/existence.

Like Moses, when he talked to God, though a burning bush.
It turns out that bushes that create hallucinating effects when burnt, are common in that region. If he did see a burning bush, he likely inhaled the smoke. Next thing you know, a guy accidentally tripping balls, played a BIG role in this convoluted, contradicting, ever open to interpretation and change “holy book.”

ALL ancient civilizations have a flooding myth, and the two of every animal on a boat story? Not even REMOTELY possible. And of course, there is no proof of an Ark, or ANYTHING other than historical happenings that were assumed to have been miracles.

I don’t take ANY pleasure from talking to Christian people about the religion, and I would not have to, if they weren’t trying to spread their disease. And apparently subvert national interests, whenever needed, to make sure we’re considering “WWJD?”...

Churches, don’t pay taxes. I see ZERO reason why they should have ANY sway over ANY thing.

According to polls I see, and religious leaders’ words, all religions are in steep decline. Even most people who consider themselves Christian, cherry pick and do whatever makes them feel like they are “getting a passing grade.”

If we revert to our Founding Fathers/constitution discussion you are of the opinion that those men thought/talked about EVERYTHING. But. They were VERY clear, to me, about what they understood about religion, when they included that separation of church and state be mandatory. They foresaw the power in religion, and tried to hamstring it. Because they are competing concepts, government and religion.

To me, when I see Biden with his black dotted forehead, I cringe.
I always thought Obama was a closest atheist. He just knew he had no chance in politics being an atheist named Barack Obama. So. The politician did what politicians do.
He even sang “Amazing Grace,” at the AME church, after the D. Roof shooting.

I believe that there WAS a time, long ago, when religion was a tool in keeping civilizations civil.

Modern day religious zealots, are a clear and present danger.
I don’t care what they practice in their church. But when they walk out if the Church, they’re in America. Until Trump and his flollowing change the government, religion should have NO place in any decisions involving how the country is run, or what books you want to shove up my ass.

If voter fraud is a concern, you should be pissed that God (not an American citizen,) essentially gets to vote when people vote for who they think their God wants to win….

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I didn’t address the multiple versions of the Bible because it is irrelevant. The Bible is a compilation of writings from many different people at many different times. Some of the stories were written in Greek, some in Aramaic, some in Hebrew…a melange to be sure. And the different versions were written at different times by different people. For example, the King James version was written first published in 1611. The New International Version (NIV) was published in 1978. The King James had a lot of “ye” and “shalt” and “thou” and many other words that were very common place in 1611 bur are archaic today. Additionally, many of the words from the various initial languages have several meanings in English. One interpretation may look at it one way and another interpretation may pick a different meaning. But what I have found is that (a) the interpretations are not that far off and (b) the newer interpretation can usually go back to show why that word was changed in the new version of the Bible. Example of this might be the 10 Commandments, #5. In one version it says “Thou Shalt Not Kill”. In another it says “You Shall Not Murder”. The meaning is close enough to be reasonable on meaning, but the latter was a slight variant of the meaning of the word in the original language. It is more clarifying than contradictory.

The rest of your comment shows exactly what I have been saying. You say the Bible is horrible yet you can’t actually point to what an Atheist or a Humanist has to use for their moral compass. Stephen Hawking and John Wayne Gacy probably had very different moral compasses, eh? So who is right and who is wrong and more importantly, why would you choose one over the other. It becomes very subjective as to who you agree with and why. “Murder is wrong! Everyone can agree with that!” Except not everyone does. Also, by the mentality of the Atheist and the Humanist, Slavery was never wrong. It was something that everyone at the time accepted. We can see that all the way back to the biblical times and beyond. But Jesus did tell us to love one another as He loved us. You can’t “own” someone and beat them and work them to the bone and sell them if you love them. Without the morality of the Christians, it is likely that slavery would exist today across the world and nobody would think twice about it.

Smashley's avatar

The rational humanist has 350 years of modern moral philosophy, and others older, precisely on the subject of the sources of morality. “Divinely given” is a punk fraud answer with no meaning. Ascribing slavery to Atheism has not even a smack of intellectual integrity; Atheism was a very small movement even during American slavery, anything any one of them had to say about slavery was going to be about politics, just like within Christianity, the overwhelming language of the day, which was used to insist for and insist against slavery. (“Did God not make me?” VS “God made you a slave”) Christianity did nothing about slavery for hundreds of years, yet you put blame of the thing on those who’s morality you have zero understanding of. A 101 class on western philosophy is by far the superior tool for crafting one’s moral compass, which seems to be what you need. If you aren’t being graded, I fear you’ll never be able to learn. So, for what it’s worth, boo. Bad job thinking. F+ (for effort)

Old Testament morality, to begin, is so plainly wrong so often, to suggest it isn’t is an absolute fucking joke. Jesus’ bit was better, but the morality espoused in His name, (like the harmless “correcting” of kill to murder) can often be absolute poison, and the manner in which it is used in politics is not like any morality of Christ. It is vengeful, hateful, exclusionary, boastful, predatory, conniving, paranoid, selfish, and shortsighted. If you think Christianity or any other religion is stopping anyone at all from being a bad person, you are absolutely mistaken. In every way that religion can enforce pro social behavior, it can excuse, encourage and require anti social behavior. Our observations, our reality, is that the usefulness of religion to push anti social behaviors is again on the rise, in ways many of us thought were reserved for history books.

The reality, supported by observation, is that morality grows, changes, and develops over time. It is a social construct, based in philosophy and the material world, beginning with the selfish sensibility of caring for children, family and friends, and telescoping into the rest of human interactions. People love Jesus because he was all about that. If you really love Jesus, we’re actually coming from the same place. I mean, you can believe the resurrection story or whatever if you want, but His real contribution was bringing a new kind of philosophy to the west, albeit one dressed up as a religion, like people of the time expected.

Simply imagine that before your birth, you could choose the moral philosophy of the world you were born into, not knowing the circumstances of your birth. Would you choose a world of injustice? No, you would choose a world of fairness and equity, as best as it was possible given material reality. This is the philosophical origin of the golden rule and the categorical imperative, the guides for morality. The right way to behave is the way that I should wish should become the way for all others to behave. To treat others how you would wish to be treated. Make the world into the one you would want to live in. Strive to make the world the best place for everybody, period. All other moral arguments are subsets of this truth.

Read a few old books, or better yet, read “The Enlightenment” by Ritchie Robertson, for a primer on the many dumbass arguments settled 200 years ago that never really die. You’ll see some of your favorites.

seawulf575's avatar

@Smashley and for the last 350 years, much of what they have done is take Christian morals (or Islamic, or Judaic) and picked out what they like. Much of what they have adapted from the more recent past hasn’t had time to bear out the problems. Sorry, that is a punk ass argument.

I never said that Atheism was responsible for slavery. What I DID say is that slavery was considered moral for millennia before it was outlawed. So slavery WAS a human moral for all that time People are great at justifying the evil they do. You talk about selfish sensibility of cariing for Children, family and friends and telescoping out from there. So when someone feels it is moral to beat their children or family members to ensure they are living in a “moral” way, that should be okay, right? I mean, after all, they are doing it out of love…they want them to be the best they can be, right? And friends! Friends sleep with their friends spouses, they steal from them, they use them, and they justify it to themselves in any number of ways, espousing morality all along the way.

Most of the good morals and values that we have in society come from religion. You mentioned (in a whole paragraph) the Golden Rule and how it applies. So let me enlighten you a bit:

“12 “Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.” – Jesus, from Mark 7:12. This is not something we all know at birth. Children don’t all grow up acting like angels. They have to be taught that taking little Jonnies toy is wrong, or that hitting little Mary is wrong. They don’t know it up front. It is the job of parents to teach them. So to claim this is something you just know at birth is out there. To say it wasn’t from religion is demonstratively false as well. Keep trying.

Your overall attitude seems to be that saying the Bible is a recorded set of values is wrong. Your justification seems to be that either the Bible is wrong somehow or Christians are just flawed. I’ll give you that many (if not all) Christians fall short of what they are supposed to be. Myself included. But that doesn’t mean the morals listed are bad. And it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be able to point out to me, using my own written down set of values, where I am falling wrong. Meanwhile, what you are suggesting is that man is somehow noble by nature and that everyone really already knows what is right or wrong. But how can that be? People don’t agree on what is right or wrong on small things. Values and morals vary from person to person. But if I decide to go on a killing spree because I believe it is the best thing for society, my purpose might be good. So how does that make killing “bad” people a bad thing? To YOU, killing is immoral and should be against the law. But all that does is prove that not everyone shares the same values. Which is proof enough that the entire Humanist argument is garbage. How can someone be held accountable for a moral wrong when they don’t see it as a moral wrong?

If you are saying it is wrong because the laws say it is, then I get to ask you why the laws say it is wrong. Many of those that wrote the laws were influenced by their religious upbringing. They learned right from wrong from it. So the laws are often based on morals that came from Judaism or Christianity. I’d throw Islam into the mix as well, but we know that Islam okays killing people that have sinned. We still see that today with honor killings. So their morals tell them that is okay. If humans knew right from wrong, it those sorts of things couldn’t be in a religious text.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I think some things are, I guess instinct.

If I see someone drowning, I’m probably going to leap into action. If it means endangering my own life, so be it.

When something/someone vocalizes/is clearly suffering, or experiencing trauma, it “bothers” me.

Not because a book said so.

My feelings, as an atheist, aren’t universally “right.” I could even agree that my basic principles originated from my Baptist childhood. Then, that changed when I could draw my own conclusions from what I observe.
THAT would be what led me first to agnosticism.
Then, all my knowledge and observations shaped me into a “spiritual atheist.” As I have never lost touch with nature.

I have my own code of ethics. I do not live to fear or appease anything.

I have opined many times, and still do, that I admire theists.

Personally. I don’t have a higher power, than my own “heart.”

People have carried countless faiths, over the eons. Most were very prolific, and complex. Involving celestial movement, environmental awareness, and their explanations for things they could observe, but not understand. Like gravity.
These beliefs spread across thousands of years, without being written.

Gravity is, to me, like a person’s religious faith.
We can observe nether, yet believe in it’s effects.
A belief, and a known fact, are two exclusive concepts.

We have proof, of gravity.
We have conjecture, about the Christian beliefs.

Wulf. You’re always harping about hearsay, and conjecture, when it comes to Trump.
The Bible, as you describe it, IS solely conjecture.

Many books, have led to my current moral compass. I do not worship, any of them. Nor any thing.

I am having trouble with your concept, that a person is incapable of “moral” behavior without a written guide.

As far as efficiency goes, people have been reading one version or another of “Christian” beliefs, for over 2,000 years.
It does not exhibit that has any “answers.”
What it HAS exhibited, is a large amount of historical inaccuracies. Like “creationism.”

One thing everyone who has ever been “saved” by a religion has in common is introspective thought, and the desire to be a better person. Not the religious texts.

Otherwise. There would not be SO many similarities between most religions’ morality.

I am not a theologian. But I have been studying some Eastern philosophy lately. Much of which, has ties to Buddhism.
Authors of articles and books on these subjects are always quick to point out that some basic principles are covered in all religious texts.

The murder/kill thing.
Despite those being actually quite different. Not synonymous, I do believe that they both attempt to convey that taking the life of a fellow human, a is systematically flawed action.

This concept, may even originate in ancient cannibalistic tribes. A human, cannot consume certain types of tissue, from It’s own species.
When times were hardest, before even language, people probably had to occasionally eat human meat to survive.
With that universally ending up sickening the eaters of the dead, it would not have aided any group of people to commit homicide. Intentional killing other people, originally, was a hunting or resource protecting behavior.

As humankind was struggling mightily with the changing world, losing people meant losing contributors to the common good.

The concept of “murder” being something we shouldn’t do, would be a very sensible adaptation of a higher functioning brain.
Not requiring the fevered chiseling of commandments. But quite natural.
Notice most animals, do not kill each other for reasons other than an opportunity for a rare meal, or resource protection.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I would agree with much of what you wrote, but a lot of it makes my point for me. You live by your own set of ethics. So do I. So does everyone. And not everyone shares the same ethics. That, alone, shows that Humanism is a crock of shit. Humanism believes that people act ethically because it is how we are wired. Most Atheists and Humanists share this belief and neither can actually admit that simple fact: that not everyone is the same. Beliefs are different therefore ethics are different.

As for your example of gravity, I find it incredibly intriguing. You believe in the law of gravity because you can see its effects. You believe this to be universal as we can see effects out in space. Yet you reject a God that created everything. So you seem to believe in the laws of science. Science has determined that all things in the universe tend towards chaos. Over time, order and structure breakdown. To reverse this requires energy to be exerted. So all the scientific “laws” are nothing more than sets of ordered behavior that don’t change. They don’t tend towards chaos as everything else. So what is the energy that is being put into these things to keep them exempt from the rest of the universe? Something has to be supplying the energy or else the universe sink into mayhem and chaos. Gravity would work when it wants to but not other times for example. There are rules to the game. A universe of chance does not have such rules. Rules indicate structure and structure indicates planned creation.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^No. Just no.

Chaos indeed rules. At the VERY least, we know that the creationism myth, is inherently flawed in every way. It does not even have enough evidence to be considered a realistic theory.

I believe in the scientific process.
Creationism is where Christianity unveils it’s true nature. Unlike Christian theme parks, humans never saddled dinosaurs, and every second that ticks by, we learn more how ridiculous the notion is.

Then there is the most glaring problem with a god. If a god created everything, who created the god?
Any God, would have had to spring from “nothing.” So. A God, sprang into existence, out of nothing. But “he” came prepared. With a universe building kit, built by himself I must presume.
The Adam and Eve story? Really? Good ol white god, made two white people to start things off? Hate to drop some chaos on you, but DNA evidence links ALL current humans with a black woman in Africa. Much further back, we were mice-like forrest dwelling little creatures. We are even linked to vegetation.

Most perplexing, to me, is the notion that this creator loves us. That’s some good brainwashing.

Murder v killing.
Two VERY different things.

Different versions… Gotta be kidding me.
I challenge you. Would you believe ANY other story, with the “evidence” that supports your faith? Of course not.

The problem with faith, is that it is a human construct. Not a variable of the machinations of the universe, like gravity that exists with or without a name.

If Christianity was a case brought against Trump, you would never tire of ridiculing it.

NOTHING indicates planned creation. EVERYTHING tells us we are a part of the universe. Not created to rule it.
Evolution is your creator. It makes quick work of “designs” that don’t change.
The Earth, Moon and other things are not “made perfectly” for us. We, are perfectly adapted to our environment. And we see those steps in our Earth’s history of living things. Each adapted to suit it’s time and place.

I agree that there seems to be an energy, that inhabits all living things. Theism is a easy cop out. The truth is far more interesting, and Christianity is only 2,000 years old. Christianity is just the latest fad, in trying to control large amounts of people.
Billions of years from now, the Sun will become a “Red Giant,” and destroy the Earth as we know it. ALL whispers of deities, or magic, will be gone.
The universe, a real thing, will still be a galactic pool table working in complete, harmonious chaos.

seawulf575's avatar

“If God created the universe, who created God?” Fair enough. If the Universe exists, who created it? If you go with the Big Bang theory, you end up with a situation where it didn’t exist one moment and then did the next. Who created the Big Bang? If you go with the “it just does” ideal, then you have to believe it goes towards chaos which is what it has shown itself to do. So when it doesn’t, and you have scientific laws to prove it, aren’t you arguing against your own belief?

“The problem with faith, is that it is a human construct.” So is science. In fact, throughout history, many (most) of the scientists that researched things and discovered the scientific laws were religious. They started with the point of view that there was a God that was providing the order…the laws.

“If Christianity was a case brought against Trump, you would never tire of ridiculing it.” Again, you are wrong. It has been brought against him and I do argue against what is brought for a number of reason. That argument is usually brought by people like you that have no true understanding of Christianity. You THINK you do, someone told you a biblical passage that you THINK you understand, though you have never bothered to actually research it yourself nor to see if it truly applied or was taken out of context. And when I argue against these things you all just try ridiculing Christians…ridiculing what you were trying to use as ammo against Trump. So yes, I will argue against the arguments that try using Christianity as some cudgel against Trump. But the problem you really have with this statement is that you make an assumption that I believe Trump is a good Christian. He isn’t. He is flawed, just like all of us. I don’t consider myself a good Christian. I’m a sinner. Just like Trump. Just like you. Just like every human on Earth. And statements like that are what make you wrong. I recognize him as a sinner already.

“NOTHING indicates planned creation. EVERYTHING tells us we are a part of the universe. Not created to rule it.” And yet, creationism doesn’t say God created only this planet. It says he created the universe and everything in it. We are a part of it. It DOES say that God gave us dominion over the Earth and everything in it…to rule it. And amazingly, don’t we hit that point? Aren’t we the masters of this world? But we fell way short. We were tasked with being good stewards of what was given to us…to take care of it and use it wisely. And we fell far short of that, in my opinion. But that wasn’t God’s plan, that is man’s hubris that led us to where we are. And part of that hubris is to believe everything we have is just a fluke and that we don’t have to worry about it.

“I agree that there seems to be an energy, that inhabits all living things. Theism is a easy cop out.” So, Mr. Scientist, Mr. Atheist, where does this energy come from and why is it there? Isn’t that what science tells us to do…question everything? You made a claim, defend it. You say theism is an easy cop out…fair enough. What is the truth then? Why do you think there seems to be an energy that inhabits all living things? It can’t be God, according to you, but you can see it there. Just don’t care about why it is there? Not very scientific of you. You say the truth is far more interesting but then fail to actually state what that truth is. All you can do is roll right into an attempt to minimize Christianity. That isn’t scientific method or process as you claim you believe in.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^You got it all figured out.
I can’t see any holes in your theories. Can we leave it at that?

I have nothing further to add.

JLeslie's avatar

If God created the universe there still can be evolution. That’s what matters most in every day politics, science, and education.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

WAIT WAIT WAIT – - – trump created the Universe just ask him . . . . . just ask him ,he never ever lies ! ! !

MrGrimm888's avatar

^And on the 7th day, Trump ate steak, with ketchup.
Hallelujah!

MrGrimm888's avatar

@JLeslie There was a time in my agnostic era, it occurred to me we could be some much greater being’s pets.
The universe, could be like my aquarium. I love my fish. I “created” their “universe.” Although I love them, I cannot heal them, if they are sick. I cannot hear them, if they are suffering. So. I hope they don’t think I don’t care. It’s just that the dynamics are different, than any of my religious fish may think.

If your hypothesis has weight, then perhaps God “himself” evolved into something no longer caring or in control.
Or maybe God has lost interest in this aquarium.

My observations of reality, coupled with my understanding of how things actually work, lead me to what I currently believe.

With all due respect, ANY talk of theism, has no place in any public school. Unless it is being spoke of in the same light as any other mythology.

This IS America. You can practice whatever you wish, in the confines of your religious buildings. Nobody has the “right” to indoctrinate children, in public education.

And just in case there are any conservatives who want to bring up the hard left lean of most universities, those students are 18 years old. They can think for themselves. Which is why colleges are liberal, ro begin with.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 with Diet Coke . . . opened in front of him !

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I was not promoting teaching God in school. I was only saying teaching evolution is not against God. It’s only against God by the interpretation of some Christians, but definitely not all, and evolution in school is just wedge issue politics at this point that some very far religious right people try to use.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 So theism is the ONLY thing they can’t indoctrinate children with in public schools then. Kinda says something of our society and your views.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^If public schools had Muslim prayers, I wonder if your view would be different…

MrGrimm888's avatar

@JLeslie In my opinion, it is the interpretation part, that is what makes ALL religions potentially dangerous.

Religions spread on the tips of swords, not their claimed morals.

Religious groups are constantly seeking vulnerable minds, to spread their ranks. Our children should be learning how to read and comprehend their environment. A thought process should be instilled where children habitually want to ask more questions, and weigh what they observe versus what they are told.

Religious saturation only dilutes any other actual fact.
I believe that religions and sciences are often competing concepts. They cannot be given equal grounds, in ANY context, with proven fact and the process of how we arrived at what is considered fact.

Theists who know the Bible cover to cover, usually know little else. The concept of “magical,” “mythical” machinations controlling the universe is not conducive to critical thinking. Religions teach people to be followers.

I know most theists’ motives, are well intended. But repeating lies to them, rather than letting them use their “God given” senses, is not productive. Nor is it sustainable. As far as most data I’ve heard about, ALL religions are declining in membership.
Studies of the numbers revealed that a growing number of people who claim a faith, actually don’t adhere to any religious beliefs. If they are asked what religion they are, they usually say what they were born into.

That’s another VERY telling problem with religions. Funny thing is, most people believe that their religion, is the one true religion.
It doesn’t take a genius to see that wherever you happen to be born, you will likely believe in the most common religion in your region.
Obviously, ALL religions cannot be THE right one. With that logic, one could easily conclude that ALL religions are likely not THE right one.
To each zealot, their faith is beyond reproach. Yet faiths have many different versions, based on historical agreements /disagreements. Each individual cell of each religion, is the unquestionable truth.
It’s clearly toxic, to a healthy society.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I think we have covered this plenty in other threads and my stance has not changed one whit. I have no problem with not forcing people to pray to a religion they don’t want, or even to pray if they don’t want. I don’t have a problem with making it okay for them to do it on their own time, even if it is on school grounds. Now, compare that to the recent rash of pushing to allow teachers and school administrators to force their ideologies on students. Look at how they push gender ideology, look at how they push white privilege and how whites are evil, look at how they push just about any of the fad-of-the-moment ideologies pushed by the left. Hell, I even had my kids, when they were in 2nd grade, come home and grill me about how I was going to vote on a particular issue on the ballot. When asked why they cared they said their teacher told them that if their parents didn’t support it, that meant their parents didn’t love them.

So compared to all of those things, you seem to think that even allowing private prayer on school grounds is far worse and all those other things are okay and even something that should be encouraged.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^To be clear, I do not oppose people praying anywhere.
I think I’ve tried to make it clear as well, that I genuinely envy theists.
I am genuinely interested in their views, and opinions.

I guess I have this unrealistic position that children should not be brought up adhering to a religion. Rather. They should first learn about their world, as something to be curious about. Learn the reasons for data your senses collect. Know how to use the parts of something you do understand, to connect the dots and form a complete picture. Then after knowing exactly what they are looking at, making decisions based on observable cause and effect.

A child that seeks to better themselves, can decide on their own, and based on what they consider reality.

Several people my age have kids that grew up that way. Without a suggested religious affiliation, but fully supporting any choices of each individual.
Most of those kids are in their 20’s now. Many of my nieces, and nephews included.
Some of them did choose to follow a religion. But. Spiritual development, to me, should not be guided by anything other than one’s heart.
It may not seem like religious people force their views on others. However. Choosing a team for someone at their birth is clearly planting preconceived notions. Notions that sometimes contradict reality, sharply.

I think I understand why conservatives are, the way they currently are. To a degree.
I can see many issues, that are controversial to them being forced on them.
If you are brought up as a participant in religious groups, you will view the religion’s perceived view on things as fact. That will shape your thinking, for life.

I agree Wulf, I can’t recall you supporting forced prayers.
The problem is that public schools are mandatory. (If you aren’t being homeschooled, or in private school.)
Public schools, cannot allow religion to creep around, anymore than a stranger.

There is already an agenda, for America. Part of that IS flossing over heinous behavior/acts that make America possible.
A vast majority of American history IS quite objectionable. People seem to want certain people to sort of admit “privilege,” as part of the process of making their lives easier.
A huge problem with that, of course, is people don’t like apologizing for something they had nothing to do with personally.
And the reality is, ALL current humans likely descended from a group of people doing awful things, at some point in history.

The idea, I thought, was to put religion in it’s place. A religious building. Removing it from schooling was needed, and never had a place in school by law.
I think that was viewed, by conservatives, as a “war” on Christianity. Their reaction, so far, HAS been to try and push Christian beliefs on everyone.
Not just me, but the majority of Americans are (at minimum) not using religion to make decisions.

I have had evolving thoughts, in regards to abortion. At this point, I don’t like it. As an act.
But. I see it as an option to ease suffering. Not really going to get into that. I obviously am referring to the fact that conservatives stocked the SCOTUS, and lower courts, with kindred spirits.
Removing a majority of women’s rights, because of a minority’s beliefs IS RIDICULOUS.

When Trump wins, I will accept it as what the system has legally produced. Any/all negative ramifications will have ro be absorbed and endured. Likely to eventually see a far left POTUS emerge, and restart the process of shaping things back to the center/left.

Call me crazy. I notice a pattern. I see 2 bedfellows. Forced to share a blanket that legally, cannot cover all of one, or both.
So. They pull the blanket too hard in one direction, exposing the other side. In turn, the other stubbornly pulls it back too far in their’s.

That’s not sustainable.
A big problem, IS forced beliefs. I don’t have a great answer for how ot should be done, as far as government regulation. My understanding, used to be, that government should stay out if people’s religion, and out of their bedrooms.
However. When the government system has been manipulated to veer right for the near future, I wager the majority will be upset. Resulting in yet more division.

Unity, means strength. There is strength in diversity. The current religious right, seems to be bad for any progress that the country will inevitably make anyway.

That’s my opinion. I’m no majority. As we know, I don’t vote either. So. Worry not. My concerns will not represented by the US government. Not in my lifetime.

I’m tempted to opine that artificial intelligence should ultimately rule, with the presumption that it would be unbiased, and uncountable.
However. I can’t see anyone agreeing on who designs the AI, etc.

Perhaps American women, who claim not to appreciate unequal rights, will not allow a conservative candidate to win the highest office.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Whoa! Who are you? You are sounding more like the guy I had come to respect. I still don’t agree with everything you have to say, but there is a lot more thought put into it. Welcome back.

You made several statements that I think are important to look at. They shape my views to an extent. The first was your statement about that children should not be brought up being forced to adhere to religion and the subsequent statement that when/if a child decides on their own to seek it, then it should be okay. There is some inherent problems with this. You see it, don’t you? The first is that it should NEVER be the right of the government to tell a parent how to parent. That is WAY too much overreach. Yes, some parents are horrible parents and sometimes the government steps in to take the children away. But that is done when something occurs to show the children are in danger. I have a hard time putting “going to church” in the same bucket as “being molested” or “being chained in the basement”. The second inherent issue with your statement is that if the child is never exposed to religion and is not allowed to have it as part of any upbringing, how will they know they want it later on?

Let me give you a little anecdotal history. I was raised to go to church every Sunday. Get dressed in my best clothes, go to church, do the Sunday School thing, and basically lose a Sunday morning every week (as my child self saw it). When I got older and things in life changed, that routine went away. Yay! Freedom! Then I got to be 18 and moved out on my own. I didn’t go to church for a long, long time. I was master of my own life. I was making choices and learning how to progress through life. But life is funny. It hits you with curve balls all the time. Rough patches happen. I finally hit a point, when I was about 39, where life had just piled on. I was divorced, single parent of 3 little kids, had a good paying job but had to work rotating shift work for it. Bills were up, stress was up, and I saw no fixes anywhere on the horizon. I sat down with my brother (who was very religious) and talked with him. I finally hit a point of just turning my life over to Christ. I felt He had a much better handle on being able to fix it. This helped me in a number of ways. I almost instantly felt more relaxed and at peace. And I found that within just a couple months my life had adjusted itself for the better. many of my stressors were gone. My point is not to be a recruitment poster. My point is that if I had not been exposed to religion as a child, I wouldn’t have even thought of it as an option. I’d only have viewed it as “a myth” because isn’t that what non-religious people want everyone to think? So to say children should not be allowed to be raised with it would have denied me something in my life that I have since viewed as a blessing.

But that brings up another issue. If you feel children should not be allowed to have religion in schools and feel they shouldn’t be raised with it, how do you feel about gender issues? Why should a child be raised to believe they are a different gender? Why should schools be allowed to push that idea on children? The obvious answer should be that you don’t. Unless you are some gender activist. And that brings us to another issue you mentioned.

“I think I understand why conservatives are, the way they currently are. To a degree.
I can see many issues, that are controversial to them being forced on them.” Yep. And the gender activism is just one. But look at how divisive it has become. It isn’t brought up as an idea to be discussed to determine if it is a good course of action. It is done secretly to our kids. It is institutionally supported over parental rights. Anyone that dares to speak out against it is treated as a terrorist. Hell, look at what happened in VA. A teen girl was raped by a “trans” student in the girls bathroom. It was a boy in a skirt. Obviously not a “trans”. But no one was allowed to challenge him on that. After all, a child identified as that, who is anyone to challenge that? When the police were called and it was found what happened, was there any justice? Nope. Because the “trans” issue was so dynamic and being pushed so hard, they had the police bury the report, they transferred the boy to another school. When the father of the girl spoke out at a school board meeting, they had him arrested and charged as a terrorist. They even got a national teachers group to write a letter to the DOJ asking for them to brand any parents that speak out at school boards as terrorists. See how this morphs quickly from an idea to violent force? And the DOJ did just that. Until it came out what happened then Garland, of course, tried backpedaling like crazy. And a a close to the story, for now, the “trans” student went to a new school and raped another young girl.

There are so many key take-aways in this story. Let’s look at a couple. Yes, you are right. Things are being forced on people. Not just religious people, but everyone. They are being forced not as ideas but as actions that everyone is expected to not only accept but to endorse. Institutionally they are being accepted and acted on sometimes even on children without that permission or even feedback from their parents. This is a dangerous situation. So let me give you my view of the entire trans issue. It’s bullshit. It was pushed by people that want to prey on little kids. It was pushed by perverts. I have said before that much of the opposition came from people like me who see the danger for what it is. Know what we are told? We are ultra-right religious nuts that can’t accept change. That is the common phrase for “shut up! we can’t actually defend our position so we will castigate you!” When Target first tried doing away with different sex bathrooms, I said it was a dangerous thing, that it would allow perverts to prey on women. I was of course greeted with lots of comments similar to the one I already stated. And almost immediately there were stories coming out of men filming women, exposing themselves, and all sorts of other things that women should not have to be subjected to. But hey, it was all in the name of pushing the trans agenda so we were STILL wrong. Then we get cases like the one in VA where a teen-aged girl (I think she was 14) was literally raped by a pervert and we are STILL treated like we are the bad guys.

So let me ask: you claim change is good. So is it better to push the idea of loving one another or is it better to push an agenda so frought with genuine peril to everyone in its way? Society is telling us the latter. You are telling us the latter. But what you are saying is that it’s okay for a girl (several actually) to be raped. It’s part of the sacrifice people should be willing to make for change. But let me ask: what sacrifice is being made by people that push this craziness?

And the trans issue is not the only one that is treated like this. You mentioned in a previous comment about the “militias”. You mentioned that 2A says guns are for a well-regulated militia and that is why these gun nuts are forming militias that present such a danger to society. But go back and think a bit. Gun grabbers created the argument about the militias. They wanted average people to not be allowed to have guns because they were not part of a militia. Yet when people form into a militia and start training, those same people tell us how horrible that is. It is all part of the narrative from the elite in every country to disarm the populace. That is how despotism grows. That is how tyranny takes hold. That is how dictators gain power. This isn’t fear-mongering, its a history lesson. It is a lesson that those pushing against guns conveniently don’t want to address. And many of the arguments against guns are the same as what we see here: You are afraid of change, you need to open your minds, what do you have to be afraid of?, if you weren’t so ultra-right, you’d see how great it could be. Yet guns are used more than 100x more in self-defense (or defense of a helpless victim) than in murders. So the idea being pushed is not one that wants to look at all the facts, doesn’t want to have any discussion, doesn’t want to consider any other view point. Sounds like a trans discussion, eh?

So the point of this whole book I’m writing is that change can be good, if it is done with full thought and discussion and is almost never good if it is forced on people. And just because you push back on an idea doesn’t make you wrong or bad. It means you have concerns. True, honest efforts at change would be willing to address those concerns, not try to hide and avoid them.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Ok. Much to cover. I’ll try.

It’s VERY important that we clear this part up. And we can.
Most of my friends are either agnostic, or on some spectrum of the religion they were raised around.
We want our children to think.

When many theists make a decision, they consider their religious beliefs over any other philosophy or system of laws.
Loyalty, is a virtue.
But. Logic, is what should trump everything.

How does someone decide to adhere to a religion, if they are taught it’s a myth?
Well. First of all, I don’t ever say that it’s nonsensical. Any religion. If questioned about something religious by a child, I often tell them to think about what they know, and come to their own conclusions.

We are in the South, so there are plenty of religious people around. We don’t make fun of them, or insinuate that religious people are inferior.
My nephew played basketball in a recreational league and one of the teams was Jewish, I guess. The whole team of kids, and their families were wearing yamikas.
We just explained that those people had different beliefs. Not to treat them different.
I don’t really dig too deep into why a kid decides to join a faith.
I think it’s fine.

You aren’t a fan of children making decisions about gender/sex when they are young, because they are too young to grasp some of these concepts.
By that logic, they probably shouldn’t be trained to adhere to something as important as one’s spirituality either.

I think we both support children making decisions, once they are old enough (clearly subjective,) to fully understand the decision, and then follow their heart.

No disrespect intended, but if a child only knows one book, I feel like that IS chaining them.

Your story is not so uncommon. You know that.
You were weak/vulnerable. You needed help. You pursued happiness, and found it.
I respect the effort to better yourself.

“You claim change, is good.”

No. I claim change is INEVITABLE.
And I support the type of change I see in America. As far as the country absorbing immigrants from everywhere. As far as mixing cultures.
That’s what I believe that the GOP, is afraid of. As I said. In this universe, white Christians have a future of being a minority. That will inevitably change the appearance, and beliefs of our democratic republic’s leaders. In theory, ALL groups of Americans will eventually share power.
Coincidentally. That WILL result in reduced representation for white Christians. Not maliciously.

As far as the rapist kid, that’s an extreme anomaly. What is also anomalous, is the amount of children committing suicide linked to “gender issues.”

Again. We have a common goal, of seeing our children succeed, and live in a fair and just world.
And we want our children to tell us, what they’re thinking/feeling.

seawulf575's avatar

“You aren’t a fan of children making decisions about gender/sex when they are young, because they are too young to grasp some of these concepts.
By that logic, they probably shouldn’t be trained to adhere to something as important as one’s spirituality either.” There is a big difference between taking a child to church when they are young and having complete strangers push them into believing they are somehow wrong for being what they were at birth. There is a big difference between teaching a child how to treat others with love and respect and pushing them to do things physically to their bodies that cannot be undone easily if at all.

“I think we both support children making decisions, once they are old enough (clearly subjective,) to fully understand the decision, and then follow their heart.” I don’t know if you have ever been a parent. I don’t remember you ever mentioning your children. But as a parent, your one, truly sacred duty is to raise those children to be healthy, sane, and good people. How one does that is really up to the parent. I was raised having to go to church. Far from being harmed by it, it actually opened my mind quite a bit. It made me question. It made me search. It made me use that Logic you were talking about. My path through life has been much like many people’s lives…ups and downs, trials and tribulations followed by wonderful periods of joy. Along the way, I have looked into Buddhism, Islam, and Atheism. I can find good and bad in all of them. But I keep coming back to Christianity because it gives me the best sense of peace. I raised my children as a single father, and with the help of my current wife. We introduced them to church. But you act as if that is all a parent has to do to influence their children. It isn’t. As they got older, not yet adults, they started saying they didn’t want to go and we let them drop off. I taught my children to use their minds and their hearts. I taught them to be responsible for their actions. I had discussions about religion with them that weren’t demands or orders or anything like that. They were discussions about why I like church and what I see in it, how it influences my life. But I always told them that I wanted them to live their lives. 2 of my 3 children now go to church, the third doesn’t but isn’t offended by those that do. All three of my children are good people with kind hearts and sharp minds.

Now compare that to the push by many perverts (and yes they are perverts) that target young children online to get them to rebel against their parents, to sneak around them, to start doing things to their lives and bodies that are confusing and even harmful. Who is REALLY letting the kids make their own decisions? Who is really indoctrinating them?

A parent is responsible for their minor children legally. If your 16 yo child harms someone, you can be sued. Their actions can reflect on you legally. So letting them start to make their own decisions can sometimes be a risky thing. To have complete strangers, and even worse, people in positions of power over those children (i.e. school teachers and administrators) telling those children to do things and think things is making the job of parenting exponentially harder and less likely to create healthy kids. But they do make kids who are confused and easily manipulated, which really seems to be the whole purpose.

Change is inevitable. That is a true statement. But not everything that is pushed as “change” is something that makes sense, is healthy, or good for society. It is the job of adults to open up the discussions to figure out what change is good and which is bad. What we have happening now is a bunch of radicals pushing their agendas with no discussion. With discussions being shut down. Accept it or be branded as a threat to humanity is the message that gets used. But when was the open, honest discussion?

“As far as the rapist kid, that’s an extreme anomaly. What is also anomalous, is the amount of children committing suicide linked to “gender issues.”” Think about that one for a moment. An entire school board had already adopted a radical idea (change), implemented it, and then tried to hide the negative results of their choices. Even tried to punish the parent of the raped child for daring to question them at a public meeting. That isn’t an anomaly. It is institutional. It shows that it isn’t just a lone person acting badly. It shows that the ideology is horrifically dangerous to our children and it shows that the institutions are pushing it as well. In my book, every single member of that school board should be charged with accessory to rape and conspiracy to rape as well as abetting a rapist after the fact. Because that is what they did. And I’m sorry, to take something so horrendous and say it was an anomaly is really disturbing.

You also mention the number of children committing suicide over “gender issues”. Isn’t it funny that those suicides revolve around a subject that didn’t really exist even 5 years ago? Kids have problems enough as is. Their bodies are changing, their hormones are out of whack, their emotions are all over the place. Now throw in people trying to confuse these kids even further, telling them their biological body doesn’t match what they are being told their gender should be. It’s a mess. And a study shows that many of those “gender issue” suicides are by the kids that embraced the transgender bullshit that has been shoveled at them. What a surprise.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I know it’s not exactly a religious thing, in America, but circumcision is pretty permanent.
That IS genital mutilation though. Done to babies usually.

No. I disagree with you here. I still think the damage religion does to the thought process, is worse. That trains a child to keep God in mind, as they are learning how to learn.
I too had Sunday school (until I was 6 years old.)
It is ,without question, indoctrination. Brainwashing.

You can’t possibly misunderstand that as beneficial in this day and age.
I hear otherwise frequently, but I do believe that religions and sciences cannot coexist.

A child needs a foundation. On this we agree. But you cannot give children inconsistent information, or they will not have a stable foundation.
When basic scientifically proven/acceptable knowledge is
not acknowledged, we are not helping a child. We are blurring lines.
As you say “children are confused and easily manipulated.”
That is exactly what religion targets. People who are vulnerable to brainwashing.

Back to the rapist. This dead horse has been beaten before. The attempt to “accommodate” children with “gender issues,” was institutional.
The perpetrator, was an anomaly. Obviously.

I’m going to do a rare thing, and claim my life experiences, including law enforcement, private security, executive security, and just my journey, to make a declaration. I believe that this rapist, are rapists.
Thieves, are thieves.

As I have stated in other threads regarding criminals, they are largely opportunists.

We can opine that this specific original incident, was likely just a sick person taking advantage of an opportunity. I could opine that the rapist would have gone into areas he was not allowed, to commit crimes, and that simple social barriers did not contain this individual.

Women’s restrooms, are not exactly a secure place to begin with. Typically a single entry/exit area, with mostly females, and no men. The only thing usually stopping males from going in, is just a sign. (At “Outback Steakhouse,” I get confused.)

Giving someone permission to be somewhere, does not remove all other laws. I find the notion that this rapist would behave somehow differently with different laws is fairly indefensible.
I have personally stopped countless types of attacks on females, by males. There are commonalities in these “men”

It is indeed sad, that our children are not protected in a place that they must attend, by law.

However. With due respect Wulf, past gun law debates, could be interpreted as you being more concerned with these “gender issues,” than you are about school shootings…

Different issues? I think that they are both about safety.

For the record, concerning me, I am listening to “transgender BS.” I will always listen to our children.
Your rhetoric suggests you may feel that schools are intentionally trying to increase the number of people who have gender/sexual issues.
I am afraid to tell you, there have been “gender issues,” since well before Christianity.
Yeah. There is actually evidence of homosexuality existing. History, and art suggest it was common. “Bathhouses,” were not invented in the 80’s.
A supposedly male pope is rumored to have given birth, during a ceremony. It is depicted in multiple works of art.
From Alexander, to Senator Graham, history is full of gay stuff.
It seems, to me, there would likely be more LBGTQ+ people, if not for Western taboos, and religious stigma. It IS a Capitol crime, in some nations to be gay. I wager that declarations of “gender issues,” are “reduced” in such places.

It is my opinion that such “issues” have been right under your nose, this whole time.
But. People want to be represented, by there government. And so, these people (and they are people,) are fighting for representation, and more than anything (probably) respect.
Yes. Your God has blessed this nation with good ol crazies, on the left too. And like the most radical right voices are usually the loudest, such is the case with the radical left.

I am not well educated on what exact changes are being implemented. I can promise you, if I thought that a law or movement was threatening our children, I would be offering my usual unvarnished opinion.

I do see some logistical impossibilites, and some potentially unreasonable expectations, mixed with largely “click bait” storylines.

Again. I see similarities in our goals. Not in our ideas of how to arrive at that desired place, is where a LOT of us disagree.

I do think it is relevant to acknowledge that we do ultimately have the best interests of our children at heart.
It is my opinion that through amicable, honest discussions and some compromise, can make this issue less muddy.

I think part of this is just a culture thing too. The dissemination of “information” is almost too much. It’s easy, nowadays, to find something that supports one’s argument, in many cases. Or. Hard to prove something false.

Schools used to be, at minimum kind of safe.

Now. It is a political battleground. And we are literally losing lives. A measured attempt to increase the quality of life for those who have it harder than me, is something I support.

Overall.

seawulf575's avatar

“It is ,without question, indoctrination. Brainwashing.” Yet you never speak out about schools indoctrinating children and pushing a radical agenda. Can you not see how disjointed your thinking is?

“A child needs a foundation. On this we agree. But you cannot give children inconsistent information, or they will not have a stable foundation. When basic scientifically proven/acceptable knowledge is not acknowledged, we are not helping a child. ” Again, you are still supporting gender issues as something that needs to be addressed at schools with elementary school children. You do realize there is zero actual scientific evidence supporting that argument, right? Oh, the activists will tell you there is until you challenge them to show you some. What they generally pull out is an article written by another activist that is an opinion piece that has no scientific backing either.

The rapist. He was not the only offender of this sort of thing. Look at all the pervs in the bathrooms and changing rooms. It is even more offensive when you for teenaged girls to change clothes in the locker room at school with a biological male there doing the same. That is institutionalized as well. What you are missing and is TRULY offensive is that the institutionalization is what leads to the crimes. And you want to down play not on, but two rapes that were allowed by the same school board. What does someone on the left have to do wrong before you can actually admit their policies are dangerous? This is one of those changes that was forced on everyone without discussion and in complete contradiction to people’s feelings. Who cares about the feelings of the girls that are forced to expose themselves to biological males, right? Who cares about the rights of two teenaged girls that were raped. The offense is institutionalized so it’s okay. Yep, women’s restrooms are not always a safe space as any guy can walk in by ignoring the sign. Yet in a sane world, he wouldn’t be protected for exposing himself to the women or even by that insignificant rape you want to avoid and downplay. It is the same policies that make it okay for those men to now be in the women’s restrooms. It is a horrible ideal to embrace, fraught with danger to our women and girls. But hey, you don’t have a wife or kids so who cares, right?

You want to compare trans policies to gun issues on campus? Okay, let’s. Trans policies that allow a boy to rape two girls – legal by the rules of the school. Guns on campus – illegal in the school. So which one is being urged by the administration? Don’t be an idiot. It is against the law to brandish a gun, it is against the law to even carry a gun on school property, it is against the law to shoot at school property like windows, it is against the law to shoot at someone and it is against the law to kill someone. All sorts of laws that are supposed to help stop this sort of thing. School administrators do not support someone coming into the school and killing people. See any differences here? Question: How many girls need to be raped because of these idiotic policies before you are willing to actually hold them accountable?

Historical: how many of those depictions were adults pushing gender affirming surgeries on children? How many of those depictions were of children dressing up in drag? How many of those depictions were of children at all? If you, as an adult, want to get hormones, dress in a dress, cut your pecker off…have at it. I am not under any obligation either legal or moral to agree with that path and I certainly am not required to embrace your delusions. Don’t have sex in public in my front yard and I don’t care what you do. Start pushing nonsense onto children and I feel it is my responsibility to speak out against an evil that is happening. It is called being a predator.

” I can promise you, if I thought that a law or movement was threatening our children, I would be offering my usual unvarnished opinion.” Yep, you did. You took the side of the movement and the policies that led to rape, protected the rapist, and punished the father of the victim. Good job.

“I do think it is relevant to acknowledge that we do ultimately have the best interests of our children at heart.
It is my opinion that through amicable, honest discussions and some compromise, can make this issue less muddy.” I don’t agree that we have the best interests of our children at heart. Unless you believe raping them is in their best interest. And no, you can’t have an amicable or honest discussion about it. You want to down play it. You will say it was institutional, but then hold the rapist as the sole problem. That isn’t honest. The rapist is responsible, that is true and we can agree. But the policies that put him into that position of power over the victim are also responsible. Until you can amicably and honestly acknowledge that, any further discussion is useless. And THAT is why things are the way they are in the world.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I spoke of other agendas.
Mainly the misrepresentation or omission of offensive history, that could make someone judge America for it’s behavior.
The pro-America agenda is pushed hard in schools.

Although I am not proud of some parts of American history.
I view patriotism, as the lesser evil than religion.
Because that is essentially what being American is about, choosing the lesser of two evils.

“How many girls need to be raped because of these idiotic policies..?”

☆It takes real “original” balls, to support a conservative agenda that is focused on removing women’s rights (like the right to abort a pregnancy from rape.)
Your ilk clearly think highly of the female gender.

How you link my favoring scientific fact, over myth, to gender issues is beyond me.
I am talking about critical thinking. Not your petty political weaponization of a few hand picked tragedies.

Don’t play chivalrous now.

The gun analogy is sound.
As by your logic, there are laws against guns in school.
But there are no laws that say male rapists can use the little girl’s room. You act as if your examples aren’t of the most extreme, and hardly constitute a dangerous pattern.

I also thoroughly enjoyed the fact that you brought up creepy men assaulting women in dressing rooms.
THAT is an excellent point.
I agree that Trump, is a real problem. Thank you for saying it for me. And no doubt the children you know, will be better with pussy grabber setting civil rights back many decades.

I challenge you to explain why it’s OK to have a president that sexually assaults women, and that’s what God wants?
But you ARE opposed to rape?

I’m just so brainwashed by left-wing media, I somehow see you painted yourself as a hypocrite here.

If your defense rests, that’s probably a great idea. I agree further discussion is redundant, and your position is clear.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 interestingly, the uber-left agenda does make people around the world judge America and it’s behavior. They laugh at us, think us insane or at least fools. Yet you don’t seem to have a problem with that being pushed in schools. But heaven forbid someone should suggest respect for their country! That’s too much! Look at our past!!! Stop living in the past. Or, as you say, stop omitting the parts of history that are uncomfortable for you. Democrats. Democrats pushed for slavery. They passed Jim Crow Laws. They pushed for segregation of schools. Even Joe Biden once state he wanted schools segregated because he didn’t want his kids going to some “racial jungle”. Every statue of Confederate figures the left tore down because they deemed them offensive were all Democrats. You really can’t show one thing the Dems have done to advance the country but you can point to dozens where they had horrific policies. Care to discuss that or is that an omission of offensive history you’d rather keep omitted?

You talk about conservative agendas that are removing women’s rights (like the right to abort a pregnancy from rape). Okay, let’s review that. Lefty policies created the environment that enabled the rape and they supported the rapist and punished the victim. Is that removing women’s rights? How about biological males competing in “Women’s” sports. They have the biological advantage and can win most times. That means “Women’s” sports are no longer for women. They are just “sports” and women can’t compete. Is that removing women’s rights? How about forcing women in these sports to have to deal with biological males in the locker room and showers? They don’t like it but it is being forced on them, even punishing them if they dare to speak out. Is that removing women’s rights? Please, tell me…just what women’s rights are important to you and which are just talking points?

I linked your hate of Christianity to gender issues because you act like only allowing religion into anyone’s life at any time is horrible. And so far in these discussions you have 100% refused to admit the danger of pushing the trans issues on our society. You know…pushing it like pushing religion is dangerous. That’s part of Critical Thinking. You have an agenda you want to push. you don’t want to discuss, you don’t want to hear contradicting evidence, you just want your side and no other. How is that Critical Thinking? How is downplaying rape and trying to minimize the impact the open policies of the left had in those rapes critical thinking? The answers are simple. They aren’t critical thinking. They are omission of offensive history. They are making excuses for bad behavior so that you don’t have to change.

“But there are no laws that say male rapists can use the little girl’s room. You act as if your examples aren’t of the most extreme, and hardly constitute a dangerous pattern.” Yes, there are laws that say the male rapists can use the little girl’s room. The VA school board created the rules saying they could. All they had to do was to say they identified as a woman and they were clear to go. THAT’S WHAT YOU ARE IGNORING! And you keep downplaying a rape like it is nothing. Yet you dare to talk about women’s rights? Do you see getting raped as a woman’s right? Do you see sexual assault as something women deserve? You even dare to bring up a statement from Trump from about 10 years ago as your proof of something. Just so you can cast blame away from the real problem.

Why do you hate women?

MrGrimm888's avatar

^What does mentioning the fact (a fact you don’t dispute,) that Trump IS one of these “perverts” you are worried about, have anything to do with me hating anyone?

I have not minimized anything. I have only put things in appropriate perspective.

The thread IS about Christian morals, and Trump’s behavior.

Sadly. There are sexual assaults, and rapes happening all of the time.
There are laws against it.
Most people morally object to sexually predatory behavior.

Since being a Christian is, I thought, supposed to guide you to your proclaimed ethical supremacy.

Is it not clear to you, I’ll explain.

A. In this thread, you have proclaimed to be Christian.

B. You claim you are moral.

C. You claim that your morals are rooted in Christianity.

D. Perhaps it was a Freudian slip, but you finally helped check all of the boxes that you find morally objectionable. (A courtroom today, found 83 million more reasons Trump is scum.)

F. In spite of Trump fitting the description of someone who repulses you, you support Trump.

So. We have our answer.
Trump is either more important than your Christian values, or maybe we should be looking at Christian values.

This concludes our scientific process.

Trump > God.
Trump > Country.

(Side observation. Trump’s “Godliness,” is now more expensive than most entire campaign funds. $83,000,000.00.)

…more trials to come…

seawulf575's avatar

And still you can’t admit the leftist policies have anything to do with it. You down play 2 rapes by the same person that were set up by the policies of the left, yet you get bunched up by something Trump said 10 years ago that was tacky. Why can’t you admit that you LIKE men being able to target women in the bathrooms and locker rooms? That is a moral choice you have made. But since you are an atheist I guess it isn’t a moral choice. You morals are fluid, right? Okay to be offended by a 10 year old comment that was off the record and okay with raping little girls. You see where your morals are. And yet you insist on bashing Christian morals.

And no, this thread was about an “ad” Trump put out which he didn’t put out. It was a question based on erroneous assumptions…like many things having to do with Trump.

So let’s look at your “scientific” process. It is garbage as you started with a false assumption and moved on from there. And, predictably, you arrived at the wrong answer. Sorry hoss, I WAS a scientist. I know how these things work. You assume I put religion and politics into the same boat. Wrong assumption. But let’s look at what your own argument has said about you and what non-Christian “morals” are.

A. You claim to be an Atheist
B. You claim Atheists have morals even though they don’t have anything to base them on other than being human.
C. You hate Trump.
D. You claim Trump is immoral.
E. You claim this immorality because of something he said 10 years ago.
F. You cannot acknowledge policies that lead to rape.
G. You downplay rapes so that you don’t have to acknowledge these rapes.
H. Therefore the only conclusion that can be reached is that Atheistic morals support raping little girls but don’t like tacky words.

Yeah, you are a pillar of morals. But you do make my point perfectly that claiming morals are baked into us at birth is garbage. You have nothing to base any morals on so you end up where you are today…Unable to acknowledge horrible evils that lead to rape because you don’t want to. That is how your morals work…whatever you want is moral, whatever you don’t want is immoral. All you have to do is a whole lot of cognitive dissonance to make it so. But when you have nothing to base your morals on it’s all okay.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Trump is a loser !

@seawulf575 your circular logic doesn’t make sense. ==>> “Therefore the only conclusion that can be reached is that Atheistic morals support raping little girls but don’t like tacky words.”

Trump is a sucker too!

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie to start with it isn’t circular logic. I don’t believe you even understand that term. Secondly, you don’t see the logic because your brain is filled with hate for Trump. So let me ask you a straightforward question. I’m willing to bet you will not answer it but will only try to malign Trump as your answer. But here’s the question:

Is Trump talking about grabbing women by the pussy as bad as implementing a policy that allows a rape, leads to a cover-up for that rape, and allows another rape?

Go ahead, tell me how Trump is worse than supporting rapists.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

I pity Trump, he will pay and pay and pay for his crimes. You love Trump (he is a dictator wannabe) you must LOVE Putin too!

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Response moderated (Flame-Bait)

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