Would throwing out election ballots earn one some prison time?

It would depend on several things, I think, as to whether there would be jail time. Was it done purposely, was it a lot of them, etc.

This is one of the things Conservatives always talk about when we talk about election fraud and ballot harvesting. The way it could impact an election is very simple. If you have an area that is largely conservative (or liberal) and you don’t want the candidate those people favor to be elected, you take ballots from that area and throw them out. They are just never counted so that candidate gets less votes.

There are several ways this could happen. It could happen with “mail-in ballots” if they are being dropped in a collection box. That is the ballot harvesting issue. Someone gathers a bunch of ballots, ostensibly as a convenience, and then drops them in the box. Except if they know or suspect someone is favoring a candidate the harvester doesn’t like, they can just “accidentally” drop it in the trash.

Another way comes from whether the vote talliers are interfering with the “validity” of the votes. This has become a bigger issue recently. Yep, a lot of election workers are volunteers. But not all of them and not all of the ones that run the elections. And again, it comes back mainly to mail-in ballots. In this scenario it usually is the signature verification that is the issue, or some other aspect of properly filling out the ballot. This version hits both sides of fraud aspect. It can be used to negate votes for candidates those people don’t want to be elected and it can be used to allow votes that are illegitimate for signature or proper filling if the ballot supports a candidate they do like.

There have been quite a few cases around the country recently where fraud has been exposed and yes, they could have influence the outcome of the elections. You likely don’t hear a lot of names (or even a lot of the cases) because the MSM doesn’t want to start reporting heavily on these things. Example: Maricopa Country and the State AG just lost a case that claimed the rules for signature verification put forth by the AG and that the election officials were following completely violated state election laws. The law spelled out, in plain language, how a verification was to be done and what was and wasn’t acceptable as a match. The AG put out guidance that basically said to use whatever as a signature verification. At one point during the investigation they found that one worker verified over 70,000 ballot signatures in less than 2 seconds. Not what isn’t throwing ballots away, but it is a violation. And, as I remember, they couldn’t go back to compare all of these votes because they had “inadvertently” thrown away envelopes that are used for comparison. The law requires these to be kept as well.

TL/DNR

Except how do you “accidentally” throw thousands and thousands, even millions of ballots in the trash?

@Dutchess_III the simple answer is…you don’t. The hard part of voter fraud is trying to prove it. Even when you prove it, punishing it is very difficult. If I throw away 500 ballots and am caught on camera doing it, to be punished they would first have to prove what I threw away were ballots and secondly that I purposely did it. In the end, punishment for voter fraud is very lenient, even when it is obvious.

Yes, they go to jail if caught tampering with multiple ballots. They don’t always go to jail for one vote type of fraud, but sometimes they do.

Multiple people are watching over the voting process. There are all sorts of checks in place.

In FL an individual can check electronically if their mail-in ballot was counted. You can’t check online if your in-person ballot was counted, but you are there at the polling center so I guess that’s why.

Give me an instance where someone was convicted of voter fraud, along with their punishment. Just one @seawulf575.
And throwing out 500 ballots wouldn’t do jack to affect an election.

Not sure what this woman’s sentence was. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/woman-convicted-voter-fraud-scheme

Republican by the way.

Keep in mind sometimes you hear about fraud and it’s not really fraud but stupid laws and not really voting twice. Those usually get straightened out and dismissed or a conviction with no penalties no jail.

Voter fraud is extremely rare.

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/#choose-a-state

Thanks @Blackwater_Park.

So, looking at the dates, minor voting fraud has always gone on. Not that it made a difference.
However I was looking for proof of ballots being thrown away.

@Dutchess_III Ask and ye shall receive.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/cincinnati-poll-worker-sentenced-to-5-years-for-voter-fraud-in-presidential-elections

The problem is that much of the fraud is more institutional that just throwing away ballots or voting for someone else. There were a number of cases more like the Maricopa County one I gave you earlier where someone up the chain in the election workers makes a unilateral decision that completely violates the state election laws. By doing that, they are ensuring unapproved methodologies are being used. But the extent of the damage is so massive that it is almost impossible to show how it impacted a given election until years after the election is over. And then it takes drawn out legal challenges.

Do you really think that silly actions by individuals here and there make a difference?

Also @Blackwater_Park had a much more extensive list of silly individuals going back years. Ridiculous.

still waiting for proof of ballots being thrown away which was my original question.

@Dutchess_III “Give me an instance where someone was convicted of voter fraud, along with their punishment. Just one @seawulf575.” That was what your question was. You then made a statement that throwing out 500 ballots wouldn’t make a difference.

I also pointed out that fraud is on an institutional level in some places. And while you are pooh-poohing away 500 ballots like they are nothing, let me point out how ignorant that sounds. What would be the acceptable number of ballots you should be able to throw away without any fear of reprisals? And does the size of the voting population make any difference on that number?

Answer the original question or we’re finished @seawulf575.

That list is people who got caught. You have to assume that the vast majority don’t. I would think it would be hard to get caught. I think voter fraud is wide-spread, mostly absentee ballots and ineligible voting. That said, both sides are doing it and it probably washes out in the grand scheme of things, especially a big election like the US presidential race. I think small local elections are where it may have the largest effect.

@Dutchess_III I did answer the original question. Just because you don’t like my answer is your problem, not mine. Let’s look at it this way: Your original question says “I keep hearing that…” Got a citation? Or are we supposed to all be privy to the voices in your head?

Uh, voter fraud is a federal offense.
By those who don’t wear aluminum hats, this has been thought of.
It’s REALLY hard to vote, more than once. That plus the penalty for being caught make it a NON-issue, for law makers.

The 2020 election was gone over MANY times, and there is just no evidence of above average (extremely rare,) election fraud.

Trump wanted a recount, when he lost the popular vote against “Crooked” Hillary.

@MrGrimm888 take a look at the AZ case. The issue was that the AG created his own marching orders for how to count ballots…orders that completely ignored state law. Yet no one was held accountable. It has been proven, in court, that a large number of ballots should have been thrown out. Hell, they even had computer records showing one poll worker did signature verification of over 70,000 ballots in less that 2 seconds. But because it took a long time to get to where no one could call the plaintiff an aluminum hat wearing nut because the evidence showed he was right, now the court is in a situation where it doesn’t know what to do. To punish someone seems wrong because that says the election was bogus. All the people have been in their positions, making decisions, etc for over a year. Bogus election would seem to mean all those elected are illegitimate as well so that creates mayhem.

So all the courts can do is basically berate the ones guilty of the fraud. Ever been yelled at? Yeah, I have too. I survived just fine. They were told the rules they used were invalid and not to be used again. Okay…so what? If they create new rules that are just as invalid, then what? Yeah, it was proven there was fraud but nobody was held accountable.

Oh, that’s just AZ, right? Except the same sort of thing…some official creating their own rules…happened in several states. I seem to remember PA, MI, and WI in the mix. Nobody held accountable.

Yep, the votes from the 2020 election were gone over many times…they were recounted over and over. But if they were not supposed to be counted, as we saw in AZ, then what? Because those that unilaterally changed the rules fought against, with the help of a complicit media, the charges that what they did was illegal. And by the time it all gets settled, again, the results have been certified and it is a fait accompli.

Question: isn’t interfering with an official proceeding one of the ear-marks of an insurrection?

@seawulf575 I thought the AZ case is about try to fix unsigned mail-in ballots, is that what you are talking about? Did you give a link?

@JLeslie You know that I do have a link. I always have a link

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/election-integrity-victory-arizona-court-rules-against-the-state-s-unlawful-signature-matching-process/ar-AA1glurB

The issue is not just unsigned mail in ballots. The state law specifies what signature is acceptable to be compared to when looking to see if someone actually signed the ballot. The AG’s office decided any signature would be good enough. Ballots compared to just about anything supposedly from the person voting. In other words, it didn’t matter if they matched or not. The state laws gave explicit instructions on how to do signature verification. These rules were countermanded by the AG. He basically ordered people to violate the law. Ballots could be unsigned, the envelopes could be unsigned, the signature on the ballot might not match the one on the envelope, the signatures might not be close to the one of legal record….it didn’t matter. Basically all ballots were considered verified from the very start.

@seawulf575 And was this lower bar of signature match applied during 2020? I read your article, but that wasn’t clear to me. You do realize that if a signature doesn’t match they are supposed to try and cure the signature. Most unmatched signatures are valid most likely. I don’t mind the signature match being done within reason, but I’m just saying the chance of fraud is low. So, does that ruling just mean the match will be done more slowly?

I had read that the Republicans wanted the unsigned ballots to be thrown out and no attempt to cure the ballot.

Also, remember that AZ wanted Rusty Bowers to sign off on letting the AZ overturn the vote of the people and he was horribly harassed and threatened and his very sick daughter. What they did to him and his family is unfathomable to me.

When I bought my most recent firearm, there was a new draw your signature part.
My actual signature, was invalid.
I had to write it over 7 times.
It wanted me to write it like a normal cursive word(s.)
So. My “signature” in that case I had to manipulate, so the computer could read it.
I thought that was really stupid. It seems to be a new way of confirming a person’s identity. But, it makes you change you signature.

At this point, when signing almost everything, I just draw a line across the screen. Not a single letter. The machine accepts it. The employee accepts it, because they watched “me” “make my mark.”

In addition, signatures change over most people’s lives.
Wulf. You may not be aware, but AZ does a LOT of things that other states don’t.
When I was a LEO, I had to deal with IDs, and trying to verify if people are, who they claim. I’ve seen multiple versions of each state’s ID/DLs.
Arizona licenses have CRAZY expiration dates. They get like 50 years before they have to renew. People from AZ, tell me it’s like that with many documents, or state processes. I guess because it is considered a state where travel is difficult, due to environmental factors.
So. It doesn’t surprise me that they may have skipped/changed some things. You should probably be more concerned about the people who did vote, actually being who they are.
People can look VERY different throughout the years. Unless we were really having an issue with someone with an AZ DL, we had to make some concessions about how different people looked. Otherwise. We’d have had to detain almost all AZ people, for an inordinate amount of time. It was a quality of life thing. For AZers, and us. It was like harassment, to people who just happened to have AZ cards.
I think Alaskan IDs had similar issues. But. We don’t get a lot of Alaskans, in SC. So I don’t remember.

We had a booklet, for ALL IDs, and stuff changed yearly.

We could use finger print scans, but a lot of people wouldn’t like that. Having one of their prints on file, if they were never arrested, or were otherwise required by employment, bothers some people. I guess I understand that.

ALL of these issues, to me, are avoidable. There will inevitably be some people who WILL try to be nefarious, but there just aren’t a lot of people willing to go through that much trouble, to vote more than once and go to federal prison. Sorry. Voter fraud is considered what Trump would call, a witch hunt. A non-issue.

I am in full agreement that the process should be well scrutinized. But. Most of the polling workers are volunteers. You can expect things like what you espouse, unless the government hires everyone. A cost that would likely be considered as exponentially too much.
That’s a problem with border security too. If there were enough US workers to process these immigrants, it would not be such a troublesome thing.

More often than not, the government prefers to sacrifice quality, for just getting something done.

Democracy is supposed to be this sacred thing. Clearly, the voting process is not as deserving of funding as say military spending. Or as it always ends up being, “we seem to have a few billion dollars somehow unaccounted for in this war.”

As with most government/state services, you get what you pay for.

@JLeslie The rules in AZ involve comparison with the ballot signature (and envelope signature) to a signature on a form that is already on file with the state. I don’t think it was a “voter signature” thing, but something like the signature when getting an ID. So what is supposed to happen, with all mail-in ballots, is for each ballot to have the signature on the envelope compared to this reference signature as well as the signature on the ballot has to match as well. The entire process takes a minute or two per ballot. And so when the poll workers are suddenly doing 10’s of thousands of ballots in a minute or two, it shows the comparisons are not even being done. What the poll workers were told to do is basically accept all signatures or even not signatures. If the initial review rejected a ballot because the signatures didn’t match, or that there wasn’t a signature, these ballots were set aside for further evaluation by someone higher up the food chain. Amazingly most of these were then accepted.

One of the things that pro-mail-in-ballot folks always brag about is that signature matching keeps it honest. Except we can see by this case it doesn’t. This is just one more example of something in the mail-in ballot process that can be corrupted to allow cheating.

@MrGrimm888 I understand that signatures change for many people over time. But that can be addressed ahead of time as well. @JLeslie pointed out (on a different thread) that FL has you re-register every 2 years. Most signatures don’t change that significantly in 2 years. And much of what you say about AZ may be perfectly true as to oddly they are to other states. But many of the same sorts of things were going on around the country.

Multiple statements and lawsuits came out of the 2020 election showing several battleground states changed their voting rules without the proper authority to do so. The SCOTUS declined to hear the case from TX against GA, OH, WI, and PA because they said TX had no say in the election rules from these states. But AZ had this case brought from within AZ and it showed the criminality of it. Unfortunately the election is long over and no one will be held accountable for the crime.

At any time in FL you can update your signature for mail-in voting. You can go in person or mail in a form. The form is in both English and Spanish. If hour signature doesn’t match when you vote, they are supposed to get in touch with you to cure it.

When my mail-in ballot status was expiring (nearing the two year mark and the coming election I would not still be registered for mail-in) I received a notice in the mail that I could fill in to update any and all voter information about myself, including updating my signature, and mail it in. I didn’t use that form, rather I just went online and put in my request for another two years mail-in ballot. My signature hasn’t changed much, so for now I didn’t worry about it. By the way, when you log in for mail-in ballot it lets you choose only the upcoming election or a full two years.

Here is the case about not allowing unsigned ballots the same amount of time to be cured as signatures that don’t match. https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2021/12/08/court-cant-fix-unsigned-ballots-after-election/

The polling staff have plenty of time to check signatures if ballots can be processed early. The other choice is checking signatures as voters come in in person or checking they look like their ID. Think about it. It’s the same amount of checking. In my county they seem to check my signature when I come in person, but I’m not 100% sure about it. The lady always seems to be looking at my signature and comparing.

If so many ballots had bad signature matches and then were pushed through and if they were actually fraudulent, it seems to me it would be so easy to find 100 ballots with bad signatures and bring charges even after the election, but we don’t see hundreds of cases of fraud.

@JLeslie Thank you for that citation. But you mentioned that checking signatures when you vote in person and are voting. That seems odd. If you are showing your ID, that is better than any signature match AND you don’t have to sign your ballots anyway.

Your concern about so many bad signature matches not getting punished has a very simple answer. Think about how voter fraud is found. You see unexpected results on an election. You don’t know why those results are the way they are and suspect fraud. So you start looking. Then you find someone that is willing to tell you what was going on. Now you have a place to dig into. So you start getting into the weeds, looking at the details and you eventually find that someone way up the chain, the state AG for instance, told people to do something that was contrary to state law. So do you hold the poll workers accountable? That doesn’t seem fair, they are just doing what they are told and they likely are not that familiar with the actual law surrounding their actions. Do you hold the supervisors accountable? They should be familiar with the law, but they are being told to do something by someone up the line. Should you hold that AG accountable? Probably. But here’s the problem with that: He/She will just say they are in charge of elections and when it is necessary they can make changes to how things are done. So their claim is they made a mistake. To hold them criminally liable, you now have to show they knew exactly what the law said and they willfully violated it.

All the while this is going on, time is elapsing since the election is over. You are now 2 years down the line and you are just getting a court to agree what was done was wrong. But, again, since no one is held accountable, the same person that perpetrated the fraud will say they will ensure all future elections will follow the law and that is the end of it. Whether they do or not is unimportant at that point. The election that was likely erroneously will stand, there is nothing in place…no plan with milestones…to show that corrections will be made or that the corrections will not violate the law some other way. And there is nothing for that person to have to present to the court as a follow up showing what they did or even have a deadline for when it has to be done. It is the scam that the scammers are counting on.

@seawulf575 if I remember correctly, in FL when I go to the poll I show ID and I sign in.

In FL we had people charged with voter fraud well after the election.

Okay, do you remember what the voter fraud was?

^^I found this. https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?state=FL

Here’s another that applies to my town. https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2023/01/30/4th-resident-of-the-villages-admits-to-voting-twice-in-the-2020-election/

Also, DeSantis passed some law or signed some order that encouraged police to pick up people for voter fraud, and they got a little carried away and a lot of those were incorrect arrests or what seems to be very confusing, but not a person casting more than one vote, but rather eligibility to vote. Florida excon’s have their right to vote reinstated after serving their time so I don’t quite understand what happened. A lot of the cases were dismissed. It wasn’t very many anyway. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/26/desantis-voter-fraud-defendants-florida-00053788

The only time I think it was legit to throw them out was for mail-in ballots that were done incorrectly. Some states had requirements that they had to be provided with driver’s license numbers or whatever, or they were mailed past the acceptable date.
My daughter volunteers every year and she tells me all the steps they take to make it impossible for them to be messed with. The electronic data has to match up with the ballots. The ballots are counted and verified by both a Republican and a democrat and they have someone who oversees them. Then its put in a lock box. One time she had to go drive the box to (I think it was city hall) and she had 15 minutes to get there because that is the length of the drive. Someone at the other end is called and she verifies she’s on her way. Then she drops the box off to the person waiting. Then they verifiy the box hasn’t been tampered with. She does not have the key for the lock. They have one at the other end and then they are left to count it and verify the exact amount of ballots are in there. So I don’t know if they do that in every state but I can see where that would be difficult to do.

@Pandora You might be in a state that doesn’t allow voters to fix a mail-in that was done incorrectly, which I think is horrible. Here’s some info https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_curing_rules_by_state,_2022

Wow @Pandora! You actually answered my question. That was a very informative post. Thank you for it.

So. It sounds like one of the biggest variables is that it is done differently state, by state.

How so @MrGrimm888? For example…?

KISS

Keep it simple stupid.

If all 50 states have the exact same system, problems should naturally be less frequent. And would certainly be easier to be considered valid.

KISS don’t wanna answer.