Should abortion laws be left to the states?
Trump recently refused to endorse a nationwide abortion ban and said the issue should be left to the states. Is that a solution that will make most people happy, or should the “abortion question” be settled at the federal level? Is the ultimate goal of the anti-abortion movement a nationwide ban?
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The SCOTUS just ruled that abortion issues are not a federal thing. They said determination for how to deal with abortion was a states issue. This is the ruling that everyone went nuts about, overturning RvW. I personally agree with their assessment. At a state level it is much easier to implement change by the citizens than at the federal level. If the elected officials in a state are not passing laws the citizenry wants, they can get voted out and changes can be made a whole lot easier.
The real issue is what is the make up of our nation? Are we a federal government with subservient states or are we sovereign states with a federal government to deal with things that would be difficult to do from a state level (wars, federal highway system, Foreign trade, interstate trade, etc.)?
As for what the goal of the anti-abortion movement is, it’s hard to say. There are some way out there that believe abortion should be illegal no matter what. But most people are relatively moderate believing that using abortion as a form of birth control is not the right way to go, but there might be reasons for wanting an abortion that have nothing to do with convenience.
But given all the hoo-haw, I guess the better question is what the goal of the pro-abortion movement is? All abortions, all the time, dictated from the federal level? That is where RvW and PPPvC were driving things. There were even state governments that were looking to allow post-birth abortions, as crazy as that sounds.
The true irony of this whole thing is that RvW was superceded by PPPvC long ago. And the case of DvJWHO which was the case where the SCOTUS returned abortion back to the states was a case where the left was upset by the proposed rules for abortion that were pretty much identical to what RvW outlined. Roe v Wade was no longer far enough to the left for the left.
The basis of the issue is not about abortion. It is about controlling women.
Anti-abortion activists also want to do away with birth control pills. Right wing activist Ann Coulter even went so far as to say women’s right to vote should be rescinded.
I’m in agreement with you, @Hawaii_Jake. These old men politicians want total control over women and their bodies. I even heard one old man politician say that if he was a judge and a woman was raped while wearing shorts, he would not convict the criminal who raped her.
They are trying to turn the clock back on women’s rights and we need to vote these people out.
This whole “leave it up to the states” crap is just a misdirection. Anti abortionists do not want to leave it up the the states. They want to ban it federally, and they have made their intentions clear from the beginning.
@ragingloli Well, that’s what I’m asking. Is this an endgame or just a stepping stone toward a federal ban? It seems to me that “leave it up to the states” is only satisfying for people who live in a state where they happen to agree with the state’s laws. To everyone else, it’s deeply unsatisfying and “leave it up to the states” is often the step before federal action is taken (as is what happened with same-sex marriage and marijuana).
Sure as long as the state doesn’t make it illegal for the woman to travel outside her state to seek an abortion, because Texas , and Florida want to do just that.
The state of Texas just recently seeked to bring manslaughter charges against a young woman for having a miscarriage ,How stupid can these frightwingers get?
They want to control women and their bodies, I totally agree with @Hawaii_Jake on that. It’s women’s fault if they get pregnant, they are whores, they need to stop dressing sexy, they need to stop acting like sluts, they must have wanted it, the man gave them what they wanted, dontcha know? The baby is their penance for acting like a total whore. They need to learn their lesson and keep their legs closed. ~~
I am so glad I live in a state that is pro-choice (not pro abortion as some person wrote on this thread). Women should be able to choose. Not the old geezer politician who is holier than thou, yet he had plenty of girlfriends back in his day and is just a hypocrite.
I am also glad NY state took abortion out of the criminal statute a few years ago, so no matter what happens on the Federal level, doctors and nurses and moms can’t get prosecuted in this state for aiding in or having an abortion.
Also, just to add, there is no such thing as “post birth abortion.” The definition of abortion means there is no such thing as a post birth abortion. It’s lunacy and makes the person using the phrase “post birth abortion” sound not too smart.
Teh bright to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” should cover control over one’s body at a minimum. Trump is just trying to play both sides. It is a Federal issue; why should a woman be punished for being too poor to travel or for living in the “wrong’ state?
@jca2 I agree there is no such thing as a post-birth abortion. The idea that it represents the opposite side of the coin of a federal ban is absurd. But I do think it is true most Americans do not desire a blanket ban or unrestricted abortion.
I’m here today very likely because of strict abortion laws of the past.
From what I read from 1880 through 1910 abortion was vilified and criminalized in the USA.
Abortion was not only restricted but outright illegal at every stage in pregnancy in every state in the USA. These abortion bans had some exceptions in instances to save the patient’s life (a decision that only doctors).
That’s very lucky for me. ^^^
My Great Grandmother (100% German descent) got pregnant (don’t know the details) from a “Mexican” (actually a 100% indigenous American from El Salvador). She got pregnant while visiting California and when she returned home to Wisconsin she became a huge problem for her family. Problem was solved not by abortion but by a pay-off. My Great Gramother’s Father (Who apparently was very wealthy) paid a man two farms to marry my Great Grandmother. They never had any children together (so it was likely a platonic contract marriage). They just raised my Grandmother (who was ½ indigenous American. My Father was ¼ indigenous American and I’m 1/8 indigenous American (plus 4% Asian and 86% German).
Life is good!
Edit: “The right” not “teh bright”
Don’t worry. There won’t be a federal ban on abortion.
Republican politicians will still want their mistresses to terminate their unplanned pregnancies.
@Kropotkin Don’t you know, the laws apply to other people?
@Kropotkin even if there’s a ban, the well-connected will utilize their connections to get things done that they need to be done.
“Trump recently refused to endorse a nationwide abortion ban and said the issue should be left to the states.”
– This is what the recent SCOTUS decision said.
“Is that a solution that will make most people happy, or should the “abortion question” be settled at the federal level?”
– It should be settled at the Federal level, because the anti-abortion minority is trying to impose bans and laws that aren’t really supported by most of the people even in the states they’re managing to get those laws passed. And because it violates fundamental human rights and is barbaric and misguided. It will cause much more death and suffering than it will prevent.
“Is the ultimate goal of the anti-abortion movement a nationwide ban?”
– Yes.
I think the idea that anti-abortionists wanting a federal ban is either fearmongering or completely loony. Anti-abortionists cheered when the SCOTUS ruled abortion was a state issue. If they wanted a federal ban, they’d have been booing along with the pro-abortionist. It’s harder to make it a federal issue now.
It’s a double edged sword. If we have extreme pro-lifers in office at the federal level then it would be horrible having a national law making abortion illegal for any reason or even a heartbeat ir six week law is horrible. It really depends who is in office at the time.
I do think it would be best to have protections at the federal level to protect a woman’s right (and a man’s right) to have control over our own bodies. I’m fine with guardrails like Roe, because no one is trying to abort and kill a healthy fetus in the third trimester, so the laws under Roe did not really inhibit what is done in practice anyway.
@seawulf575 You might be ok with it at the state level, but I feel very sure that the ultimate goal of the leaders of the pro-life movement want any type of abortion banned at the federal level. I have believed this since my college days when it became evident to me that pro-lifers would NEVER give up on chipping away at Roe. It is the same as the school vouchers, the average Republican might believe it’s good for schools and students to increase competition, but the people leading it want everyone in religious schools and for the government to fund it.
@JLeslie
They literally say that a national ban is what they want.
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4580756-graham-trump-abortion-ban
But somehow, pointing to their very own words is “fear mongering”, like it was “fear mongering” when it was clear that they wanted to overturn Roe v. wade (and then it happened).
But on the other hand, describing immigration as an “invasion” and “poisoning the blood” somehow is not fear mongering. Got it. These people have zero self reflection.
@ragingloli Logically anyone who prioritizes the life of a fetus over a woman to the extent that their unwavering belief in God commands them to protect the unborn, and who feels extremely patriotic to the United States of America to the point of Nationalism, is not going to be ok with laws in states that allow abortion. It would be like me being ok with a state saying raping women is ok.
This is ridiculous. We can’t keep arguing about this (“we” as in the country). It’s used as a tool by the two wings of the ruling corporate party to keep people distracted.
And not a single “states rights” dipshit actually believes in states rights. They just don’t. If Massachusetts were to make it legal to beat conservative Christians to death with a tire iron, they wouldn’t celebrate and be thankful that they don’t live in the state. They would drone on about why some things should be federally mandated and others should be left to the state.
But for most normal people, bodily autonomy is the most important civil right and is far more important than any horseshit anti-choice maniacs hold dear.
So, yes – we can dismiss the whole “states rights” arguments out of hand. Personally, if an individual were to admit to me that he wanted to control my daughter’s uterus, there is a greater than 0.0% chance that the situation ends in much blood. When my government does it, it’s no different. I’d prefer it to be legal rather than have to end some people.
@hat I went to a mega church dinner and fashion show years ago and I was SHOCKED that the woman doing the fashion talked about abortion! She basically said Christianity is the way to be forgiven by God for getting an abortion. This subject is kept alive in a way that I never could have imagined. It is used to recruit in some churches. In my opinion that church knows a lot of pro-lifers had abortions. They want the government to make it illegal, because of their own regrets. They also project their regret onto other women.
@JLeslie There are indeed some on the pro-life side that are WAY to the right and want to do away with abortions entirely. But they are a small percentage. As for the right chipping away, I’d suggest it is the left that chipped away the other way. Roe v Wade gave very distinct limits on abortion. It went by the trimester to determine what rights were available. But the left wasn’t happy with that. They wanted no one other than the woman to determine if an abortion should or shouldn’t be allowed. That was PP v Casey. So it opened the door to more and more liberal interpretations of the law. It got to the point of pushing abortions during birth and even after. Remember VA Gov Northam’s statement?
“Assembly session this year no exception there was a very contentious committee hearing yesterday when Fairfax County delegate Cathy Tran made her case for lifting restrictions on third trimester abortions as well as other restrictions now in place and she was pressed by a Republican delegate about whether her bill would permit an abortion even as a woman is essentially dilating ready to give birth and she answered that it would permit an abortion at that stage of labor do you support her measure and explain her answer?
yeah I’m you know I wasn’t there Julie and I certainly can’t speak for delegate Tran but I will tell you one first thing I would say this is why decisions such as this should be made by providers physicians and the mothers and fathers that are involved there are you know when we talk about third trimester abortions these are done with the consent of obviously the other with the consent of the physicians more than one physician by the way and it’s done in cases where there may be severe deformities there may be a fetus that’s non-viable so in this particular example if a mother is in labor I can tell you exactly what would happen the infant would be delivered the infant would be kept comfortable the infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother so so I think”
So the first part is that the Democrat delegate was proposing a bill that would allow an abortion right up to the point of birth. The Governor even described the decision as a situation where the baby would be born and kept alive (if desired) and then the doctor and the mother could decide if an abortion was needed. Both of these show how far to the radical left this entire situation has become.
On both the left and the right there are people that are radicals. The biggest difference is that so far it has been those on the left that have tried pushing laws further and further to the radical.
^^That is all mumbo jumbo language legal stuff. Remember late term abortion diagrams of doctors killing and dismembering fetuses inside the womb? Part of the reason it was being done that way was because with how the laws are written, once a fetus is outside of the mother the fetus can’t be euthanized, but rather is left to struggle and most likely suffers. It also is more traumatic on the woman’s body to go through full labor and delivery.
The left wants abortion laws that protect the safety of the woman and protects the woman and doctors from legal prosecution.
An “abortion” after a baby is delivered means to me a D&C after a baby is born, not killing the baby.
Protecting abortion up until birth is not saying abortion should be legal or practiced up until birth on health fetuses or healthy women who are pregnant, it’s only saying if needed it is legal. Don’t you see that all of the “scare” stories (as Republicans want to call them) are pro-choice people showing how women who NEED abortions are being denied and their lives, fertility, and psychological wellness are in jeopardy. The problem is pro-life extremists tend to believe it is extremely rare that a pregnancy goes wrong, but that is not true, things go wrong a lot unfortunately.
Roe and Casey both made killing a healthy fetus in the 7th, 8th, 9th month illegal in the entire country. If you like it being ilegal, then you should have been fine with those rulings. Casey actually looked more specifically at viability which basically further reduced it to the 6th month.
If the Religious Right is upset by states that allow abortion up until delivery they can thank themselves for removing Roe and Casey.
The idea that Democrats want to kill a 9 month healthy baby is offensive, ridiculous, and a lie.
The people who are extreme right on abortion have a lot of money and power and control many of the Republican politicians like puppets.
Pro-life stories are pushed through social media of a doctor saying a fetus couldn’t live and the mother wound up birthing a normal baby. The religious right relentlessly repeats that all pregnancies should be maintained, don’t believe doctos.
I simply do not believe any Doctor preforming an abortion on a healthy late term abortion,that is story telling by the extreme anti abortionists.
The incredibly touching and widespread concern by many conservatives and religious people for the well-being of unborn fetuses must presumably translate to all living children and adults, right?
I’ve never been to the USA, but given how important unconscious unborn humans are to so much of the population, I can only naively presume that there is a proportionately even greater concern for the well-being of those who have already developed consciousness and real social identities.
I look forward to visiting your country one day, to witness first hand the paradise you must surely have created for your born population, who must all be benefiting from this great cultural focus on the well-being of living humans.
Ideally sure, reality your going to be very disappointed.
@JLeslie The point is that the push has moved from RvW which allowed unfettered access to abortion in the first trimester all the way up to only to save the mother’s life in the last. It moved all the way to people talking and proposing laws about doing abortions while the mother is dilated for delivery. And if you take Gov Northam at his word, even after that. The point is that the left calls it abortion and continues to push the goal post farther and farther out. And while it is really only a percentage of the left, the rest don’t seem inclined to argue with them. That is chipping away at the sanity of abortion. Now the left claims the right wants to ban abortion altogether. Yet Trump, who is supposed to be the leader of the right, according to those on the left, doesn’t want that and isn’t pushing for it. So no, the right isn’t chipping away at anything, really. Idiots on the right that want to push for a federal ban are just that…idiots. And the vast majority of conservatives don’t agree with them.
@Kropotkin You have never been to the USA? But you are so full of adamant opinions about how we should do things! Huh. Imagine that.
@seawulf575 I hope one day to see your exemplary American society and learn how things should really be done.
Abortion decisions should be made between the woman and her medical provider. Period. Government has no business getting in the middle of that.
@Caravanfan So there should be no laws about abortion? Interesting. That means your other question about concerns about the AZ abortion laws is sort of moot. That also means that all the hoo-haw about RvW being overturned is moot. As is the concern that states will determine what is and isn’t lawful for abortions. So, according to you, it shouldn’t matter to anyone if a woman and her medical provider determine that killing the baby as it is born or even after should be okay?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for smaller government and less governmental overreach, but I’m curious how far your belief in that really goes in the medical field. The ACA should be revoked? Government oversight of medical licensing should go away? Control of medical opioids should stop?
@seawulf575 Abortion should be legal and safe for any woman who wants to have one, no matter what, and that decision should be made between a woman and her provider.
@Caravanfan Is that your opinion as a medical provider or as a left winger? If a child is 34 weeks along in a pregnancy, it is viable. It could survive outside the womb on its own. Yet according to you, that doesn’t matter.
It is thinking like yours that started pushing the idea of having an abortion during birth or even after. People like me see that as inhumane and even insane. I’m not a big abortion fan, especially with all the other options available. But I recognize there are times it would be necessary. And most states (if not all of them) have some law that spells that out. Most people in the country agree with that thinking as well. Why are you the outlier?
@seawulf575 – It is not only irrelevant what your religion tells you about abortion. It’s actually far worse considering how you view humanity and their worth. You want a big government to control the bodies of women because you profess to hold human life as valuable. Yet, every position you hold is proof that you hate humans. Every single political position you hold is one that results in immeasurable human suffering and death. Not hyperbole. Every single position.
If the situation as it is now is fine, and it’s just a few leftists who want to be able to cut off a baby’s head when it’s 2 months old pushing things too far, why are women being forced to carry non-viable pregnancies to term? Why does a child who gets raped have to go to another state to get an abortion? Clearly the current state laws do not allow for all the necessary situations, even if we completely discount “oh, I just didn’t feel like using a condom” as one of them.
@seawulf575 lol that you think I’m a left winger. @hat and Gorilla see me as right wing. I guess I’m doing something right.
A fetus at 34 weeks is never aborted. The mother is induced and the fetus is generally born alive and sent to a NICU. The fact that you actually believe that or that anybody would believe in actively killing a baby after they are born and calling that abortion just shows how twisted your mind really is.
@seawulf575 where are you getting your information that doctors are aborting fetuses at 34 weeks or after they are born? I have never seen TRUE medical evidence that this has been happening.
Of course they should be, voters voices will be heard and the matter settled state by state.
Missouri was the first to ban, and may be the first for a full reversal.
@Caravanfan @hat and @gorillapaws see Chariman Mao as a right winger.
As for your claim that babies are not aborted at 34 weeks (late-term or third trimester abortions), I’m going to throw the bullshit flag on that. The NCBI put out a paper justifying why it could/should happen. The Denver Post did an article about a woman that left NY to go to Colorado to get an abortion at 32 weeks. I will grant you that they are rare, but they do happen. And that is what the left pushes. As I mentioned before, Democrat Delegate Cathy Tran of Virginia proposed legislation to make abortion legal even up to the point the mother is dilated and giving birth.
By denying these facts, you are showing how warped your own mind really is. I also noticed you refused to address things as a medical professional, you only want people to believe your personal views because you are a doctor. Yet the fact you are so ignorant even about the things you present as facts, should they really?
@hat What the fuck are you even talking about? When have I brought up my religious views at all? Nice deflection. As I said on the other thread…you bounce off the proverbial walls. Take your meds and try again.
@seawulf575 And once again you pull from headlines and fail to read the actual article. That fetus was nonviable. From the article—“ Her son’s abnormalities meant he wasn’t viable. He was “incompatible with life,” her doctor told her.”
For fucks sake. Do you just google and click?
And again, to be crystal clear. Her reasons are none of your fucking business.
@seawulf575: “When have I brought up my religious views at all?”
Your view of abortion.
And yes, your views on human existence are abhorrent. So, you want a situation where governments make it illegal for woman to obtain healthcare just so you can have one more human to live in a world in which they are subjugated to injustice and death. You are a misanthropist who has a habit of pretending you understand ethics in order to cause more harm.
@Caravanfan That woman could have had the baby as well. They could have induced labor as opposed to doing an abortion. You are just upset because you were proven wrong. Admit it. That baby was not born and then taken to NICU as you claimed. You were very adamant that abortions did not happen that late. And what about the NCIB article? They are even adding reasons why abortions could be done up to birth. I notice you conveniently ignored that one which is what you do every time I challenge you with something.
Good grief wulfie I can’t see any doctor performing a late term abortion on a healthy pregnancy,
Unless there was a serious health problem for the mother or the fetus.
Simply not going believe it.
If it did indeed take place there must have been a big pay out for the doctor.
@hat Isn’t it funny that you somehow conflate my stance on abortion (of which you obviously know nothing at all) with my supposed religious beliefs. Here, I’ll help you and then you can bounce off the walls some more and come up with something else equally as bizarre. I’m a Christian and my view of abortion is that it is okay up to a point. It is far better to be responsible before sex or at least get a Plan B pill immediately after (or within a day or two), than to do an abortion months after the fact.
Now, wow us all with your ignorance of Christianity. Where in the bible does it talk about abortion? I only know of possibly 3 places where it is hinted at…none of them are direct. So go ahead, impress us all.
Now it swung so far in the other direction that the Extreme conservative AG of Texas refused to let that kate kox woman have an abortion on a very unhealthy pregnancy that the child had no chance of more than a few days after birth of surviving,and greatly harming koxs health if she carried it to term.
@SQUEEKY2 Believe it or not, that’s up to you. But answer me this: if this was not the case then why the push from the left as can be seen by Delegate Tran’s proposed legislation? I know you want to believe it would never happen but there would be some doctor out there that would gladly overcharge to do the job. Sort of like why you don’t hear doctors screaming from the top of their lungs about using condoms. Treating STIs is a multi-billion dollar per year industry. Add in the money for abortions and doctors and the pharmaceutical industries are all for this sort of thing.
No. The fetus was non viable. Do you need me to explain what that means? Waiting to take the fetus to term would have been increased risk to the mother.
@Caravanfan Maybe you should explain it to yourself:
“A fetus at 34 weeks is never aborted. The mother is induced and the fetus is generally born alive and sent to a NICU.”
Those were your words, not mine. So instead of aborting they could have induced and if the baby didn’t live okay. That isn’t forcing the woman to carry to term, but it isn’t aborting either.
I think @seawulf575 doesn’t want to read what you say @Caravanfan Just an observation ! !
Multiple times; not reading and coming back with, SAMY LAMY ANTI-ABORTION lies ! !
None of the examples of rare, later-term abortions that I read about ever involve a dirty slut who has abortions all the time because she gets a thrill out of killing babies and drinking their blood, yet this is what some in the anti-abortion crowd would have you believe. I remember speaking to someone on another site who was genuinely surprised that I didn’t think women who have abortions are bloodthirsty baby-killers; “what else are they, then?” she asked. These cases are exceptional and these restrictive laws make it so they are difficult to handle effectively, for the pregnant women and the medical professionals. But the opposition sees them as the result of some kind of crazed desire to kill infants for flimsy reasons.
Make no mistake, the reversal of Roe and these restrictive new (or in some cases, old) laws are not some recent reaction to “too many late-term abortions”; they are the culmination of decades of effort to outlaw abortion in all or a vast majority of cases.
Wulfie outlawing it then would drive these greedy Doctors that would do a late term healthy pregnancy abortion just underground (black market) thus making it super unsafe for the woman.
You pointed out that late term abortions are very rare but they do take place , so that’s why an abortion ban.
Most Doctors would not due a late term healthy pregnancy abortion, but greedy desperate ones will ,most women wouldn’t do a late term healthy pregnancy abortion.
But then this has swung so far the other way it’s stupid like denying Kate Kox an abortion on a seriously unhealthy pregnancy, that would greatly harm her if she carried it to term, or denying a 10 year old Ohio rape victim an abortion I hope that one comes back and bites your orange god bad come election time.
@SQUEEKY2 False narrative there, bub. Doctors and the pharmaceutical companies love to have abortion legal whenever for whatever reason because then they can cash in on it without fear of their licenses being taken away or their products being banned. But that doesn’t equate out to if it was suddenly illegal that they would run for the black market to keep the gravy train running. They’d move on to the next thing that could be exploited.
What I find interesting is that most of the state laws have a certain amount of leeway built into them. I won’t say all because I don’t know all. And those that are onerous will eventually be tweaked since changing them is easier at the state level. But you are risking life and limb climbing up on your soap box when the laws in Canada are about the same as many in the US. Why aren’t you campaigning for opening up the abortion laws in Canada? You and @ragingloli are two of a kind. The abortion laws in Germany are more restrictive than many in the US. You both love to come on here and rant about how evil the laws are here yet aren’t saying a word about your own countries. Why is that? Paid actors?
@seawulf575 Are you deliberately being dense here? This is bad even for you. The fetus was considered to be nonviable, so they terminated the pregnancy to avoid further harm to the mother. It was a tragedy for them.
@Caravanfan But wait! Why are you even commenting on it. It’s none of your business, right? Besides, your own words showed exactly what you said. And you have not retracted one letter of it. So you were wrong. Period.
@Demosthenes
Yup:
Dense
Opinionated
Fright Wing wording
Obtuse
Maybe believes Jefferson Davis was best President ever.
Singularly smartest person he knows.
I pray he never has a female relative that has a pregnancy that requires an abortion in a GOP (backwards) state !
@seawulf575 Okay buddy, I was wrong, you win. I just can’t deal with your level of straw man fallacy crazy right now. Enjoy.
And even calling it a straw man is garbage. What about the NCBI article? If it is of no consequence and a straw man argument why did they do an article addressing it? What about the proposed legislation in VA (BTW, there was another one just like it being proposed in AZ)? If it is a straw man and no one really wants it then why is it even being proposed as a law? I recognize you want to insult me to gain GAs from your buddies, but you are being disingenuous. You ignore the parts you can’t actually address and which don’t support your viewpoints.
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