Isn't it ironic that Democrats and Republicans are saying the same thing about the Presidential election?

Ugh, even more reason to be glad I’ll be out of this country by the election (maybe for good). Enjoy your “finished” country, Americans. ;)

The thing is, if every election is “the most important election ever”, then none of them are. And no, I refuse to believe that choosing between two geriatrics who’ve already faced off once before is the difference between life and death.

Well, in either case, the country is not “finished.” In elections that don’t matter because of a lack of good a good option, this is pretty high up there.

It isn’t ironic, it is the GOP strategy to blame the Dems for the exact things the GOP is doing.
“They are trying to steal the election!”

You can go back decades, and probably find almost the same rhetoric and framing.

Neither is correct. Both parties are two wings of the same pro-war, pro-capitalist business party.

@Kropotkin But I keep hearing that Biden is a far-left radical who wants to implement communism and Trump is literally Hitler! They’re super, super, different, especially when it comes to Israel…

:P

@Kropotkin – You’re so wrong. One “party” offers full support of an apartheid state committing genocide and attempting to bring other countries into a regional war and flirts with WWIII. And the other “party” offers…full support of an apartheid state committing genocide and attempting to bring other countries into a regional war and flirts with WWIII.

For years, if one expressed the opinion that ‘both parties are corrupt/inept/ineffective’ or that ‘all politicians are self serving/horrible/useless’ and so on, you were met with encouragement to stay involved, believe in the system, be sure to vote.

What we’re seeing here is that all of that cynicism is correct.

Ironically, our vote doesn’t count, as in the election where Hillary lost despite winning the Popular vote.

^Don’t forget—your vote is also worth less if you live in an urban area or outside of a swing state.

@Kropotkin “You can go back decades, and probably find almost the same rhetoric and framing.”
– No, you really can’t. If you really think so, give it a try.

“Neither is correct. Both parties are two wings of the same pro-war, pro-capitalist business party.”
– To some degree, yes. But the current GOP is largely the Trump/Putin tool now.

In the United States flag white signifies purity and innocence, red means hardness and valour and blue signifies vigilance and justice. The orange in the flag represents Trump.

Two completely different visions of what is best for the USA.
It’s up to you to decide which is best.

@gondwanalon I couldn’t have said it better. If you like the course the country is on or not…that is the question.

They’re really not that different, and the president himself doesn’t have much impact on many aspects of day-to-day life, like high prices of goods and rising rents and neither one will do much differently foreign policy-wise (but I guess this is the time the problems with the immigration system will finally be solved). I get that people really need to believe the two options are radically different from each other and that changing one out will fix everything, but I’ll see you all in four years when we’re having this exact same conversation…

Same shit, different party. Meaningless rhetoric.

This has been happening for ten years.

Both parties accusing the other of ending democracy and the country going over the brink.

Trump accused of being inappropriate with his daughter, Biden being accused of being inappropriate with children.

Republicans are taking away religious freedom. Democrats are taking away religious freedom.

Trump is a dictator who will never leave office, Obama was a dictator who supposedly would never leave office.

And on and on.

Trump really is a threat to democracy. He obviously will do anything to stay in power.

@Demosthenes Trump isn’t Hitler. He’s Mussolini

Unlike most political rhetoric, I think the sentiment the OP mentions is a real thing, and has actually NEVER BEEN CLEARER.

Trump will allow the Christian zealots to right the laws. The country will become more of a theocracy. What this country was founded on, will be abandoned.
The US will slowly devolve into Christian-istan.
We see how countries with religious saturation operate. They barely function, and civil unrest is unending because of ideological extremism.

We already know Trump doesn’t support our democracy, or voting process.
We know that he will try to hurt every last person who disagrees with him. So. The weakest “yesmen,” will inherit the countries government.

Again. We know the state of the GOP. They are being consumed by the chaotic idiocy. The minority radical extremists in their party are running the show.
And how is that going?
They may fire ultra-conservative Mike Johnson!
The GOP, with Trumpers involved, is a pathetic sight.

So. We know Trump was the worst POTUS in history. He was openly mocked, around the world, and here at home. He even managed to lose his home state, which should be quite telling to even a fool.
The majority Republican congress, cannot even settle on a leader.

It’s also pretty clear, that women’s rights are going to be reduced, to an unknown point.
In 10 years, females could have their laryngeal area removed at birth, so they can’t complain. And women would be more like those in Muslim countries, where they get stoned for “cheating,” or shouldn’t go places without a male escort.

If I were a female, or cared about any females, it would be indefensible, to vote for any Republican candidate in November.

Biden. He would likely be more of the same. It would be fair to assume that he may have to lean extra hard on his advisors even. But. At least Biden has advisors, and can listen.
He doesn’t have a bunch of “yesmen,” whose only strength is unquestionable loyalty.
Sure. It’s possible Joe could pass, or become unable to retain the job. Ordinarily, that would be a MASSIVE red flag. However. Since presidential elections are always really just picking the lesser of two evils, the people should be ok with KH, as a backup shoot.
I don’t think KH would be more than a stopgap, and would likely be ultimately doing the bidding of the democratic party.

Honestly though, if I try and think “worst-case scenario,” for both Trump and Biden, I just never really can think of anything that would be worse than even a best-case scenario with Trump.

But. It’s REALLY hard for the GOP to paint the dems as destroying the country.

The bottom line is that the people who aren’t devout Christians, which is most of the country, view their “way of life” as in danger of being destroyed.
That would be the closest realistic thing for the conservatives to think.
But. Religions are on the decline worldwide. Even if they fuck the country up, and change every law to what they want, the winds of change will eventually blow them away.

Trump will try, to make massive changes. This could include dissolving the very intelligence agencies whose job is, to watch out for people like him.
The FBI, and I guess whoever else Trump can kill with a signature, will go away.
In other words, no free press either. Can’t have the anchors on national TV, telling people the truth about Trump…

It should go without saying that it’s VERY possible that Trump won’t leave after his last 4 years.
I think a healthy portion of his deranged followers, would love a God King Trump.

If someone doesn’t want to vote, I’m fine with that.
But. If you vote FOR Trump, then you deserve the future he will usher in.
Interesting enough, Biden voters don’t have to like anything about him. They just have to care about democracy, the democratic process, women’s rights, and the environment. Those are the things Trump will forever taint.
Oh yeah, and the world is in a scary time. I literally can’t think of ANYONE worse than DJT, to “lead” the nation right now.

@MrGrimm888 ”...Since presidential elections are always really just picking the lesser of two evils…”

But it’s the DNC that’s working overtime to prevent good candidates from becoming established. The role of the DNC is to stamp out any flower that tries to bloom in the garden. The DNC is way WORSE on Democracy than the evil fucks in the Republican Party (which ought to rattle people to the core).

The DNC created “Trump the Politician;” the DNC doesn’t want primaries and is happy to put forth a senile looser that nobody likes instead of taking the chance at an actual politician that isn’t a corrupt piece of shit leading the Democrats. In other words, the DNC would prefer a Trump presidency than a progressive one, which is why supporting Democrats is even more dangerous than Trump (and I’m in compete agreement with how dangerous Trump is).

So when I vote for Dr. Cornel West in November, it’s because the DNC is even scarier than the nightmare of 4 more years of Trump with a chance of a dictatorship, because the DNC IS the party of dictatorship and rigging primaries to maintain their corruption.

^I went through a phase, like yours. I was intent on voting for Mickey Mouse, until we had an election with someone who garnered my interest.
In my mind, over time people would see that, and understand that I voted out of protest, and maybe then things would change for the better.
Well. I quickly reported to not voting at all. I don’t need anyone to “join me,” or anything, I just refuse to give someone MY okay, unless they at least come close to deserving it.
I came really close, with Obama in 2008. I even talked him up, and for what it was worth talked down about McCain. I even destroyed a huge wooden McCain election sign, when I was drunk. A “real patriot,” right.~
But then Obama expressed that he would bail out the banks, and I always genuinely liked Obama, but I felt like I dodged his deception, by not giving him my vote.
Lol. It’s funny how things change, over time.

My bar, (for who could even be considered) a person who wields the power of that office, used to be pretty high.
I’m laughing now, because I’d probably vote for Obama now without hesitation.
That’s of course due to the audacious fact, that Trump was actually the POTUS once! The bar didn’t lower, it fell to the ground…

I just think, if you vote for anyone other than Biden (unless something crazy happens,) that you are saying that you are fine throwing your vote away. As nobody cares, sadly, about citizens with legitimate expectations for their government. They all study who can beat who, in polls that are often VERY misleading.
I think, from the outside looking in, that the dems were willing to hitch their wagon to Hillary.
Hillary had done ALL of the “steps” she needed to build her right for candidacy. I have argued that Hillary started that path, as a young child.
And, as insane as it was that Trump had somehow insulted, lied, and failed his way to the top of the then Republican Party, the dems felt like they could run anyone. They knew Hillary would play ball, and likely not be an unmanageable character.
I believe a LOT of people, in hindsight, wish they had voted in 2016. Many thought, “she don’t need my vote, who in their right mind would vote for Trump?”

To Hillary, it was the culmination, of her life’s work.
I believe that she must have thought she had lost her mind, when Trump got the EC. It was her “destiny.”

Well. As I have learned, I should never underestimate my “fellow” Americans.

I thought surely they would have had someone better than Biden, after 4 fucking years.
A presidential candidate, should be like a quarterback for each oarty. They should always be developing someone, to step in/replace the starter. Always.
I can’t fathom why there aren’t a stable of Manchurian Candidates, just waiting in the wings at ALL times.
Here we are 20fucking24, and we’re actually BACK to Biden v Trump? Now I KNOW, I’m in a dream.

The DNC is pretty pathetic, right now.

I do think that even hard-core Republicans will seriously regret voting Trump in again. The damage he reaped on not just the GOP, but it’s top media outlet FOX “News,” and countless other big names all should be frightening to right-wingers who aren’t bad people. And there are plenty.

But here we are. It always comes to this. Who will we give each the keys to, to drive us home? As usual, we only have two options.

This time though, it’s a little different. Last time we gave Trump the keys, he wouldn’t give the keys back. Everyone in town saw him driving our car, and it was shades of humbling, embarrassing, and pornographic amusement.
The other guy, looks old, but he’s far more likely to get you home safe, and give you the keys back. That’s Biden. The old yellow cab taxi. Trump’s running from the cops, and he ain’t going to prison, even if he has to drive us ALL off a cliff with him.

I have to say, I never would have imagined that this would be happening in 2024, when I was a boy learning about “the greatest country in the world!”

The SCOTUS, is already stacked hard right, and they’re even helping Trump delay persecution.
Will they continue reworking the country to better fit the conservative agenda?
Could Biden stop them?
Surely Trump could only make it exponentially worse, as he only cares about himself.

Biden is far from ideal. He had already been doing the job. Despite idiot right-wing rhetoric, things are much better than when Trump was the crazy man behind the curtain.
The biggest problem, and it’s something that the DNC can’t hide from, is that things like gas and food are more expensive.
Even though we were ALL told about this going into helping Ukraine. We were willing to absorb some hardship, to help someone who needed us to fight a very common, and very dangerous adversary in Russia.
As I recall, there was mostly positive support for the idea. It wasn’t a desired issue, it just happened. Granted, everything could have been handled differently by many parties, but we are now sort of invested in Ukraine.
With Trump having already backed out of so many important deals LIKE THE ONE WITH IRAN, that would probably have made for better relationships today.

Biden is “the safest” bet. I believe that unfortunately, he is not the person really needed, for this time. It’s just that the alternative is SO potentially, no, likely bad.

I respect everyone’s opinions.
But this crap, doesn’t help a person like me, who has little to no faith in his government. I hate these “elections.”

@MrGrimm888

Let’s say you’re locked in a cell and there’s a guy who drags 2 kids in front of you and says you have 3 choices:

1. You agree to repeat this game next week and you only have to kill kid A. or
2. You agree to repeat this game next week and you only have to kill kid B or
3. You can choose not to pick either kid, he’ll kill them both and there’s a small chance the game will end forever.

What’s REALLY the lesser evil? Because with the DNC it’s turtles all the fucking way down from here on out…

We’ve gotten to the point where the DNC is forcing us to vote for a senile guy who’s supplying weapons to support a Genocide in progress and are being told it’s the “least evil” option. The DNC is the greatest evil because they’re always going to produce the next Trump to vote against. At least Trump is incompetent and disliked by most Americans.

Biden is closer to right.

Trump is a rotten liar, obviously, and everyone who supports him is a rotten human being, obviously. He’s just trying to mimic the truth to muddle it, obviously, because the more people know the truth, the more he is exposed for the worthless shit he has always been, obviously.

Biden has his flaws but he’s basically Jesus, Bon Jovi and JFK rolled into one in comparison. The Union will probably last for a time, but weep, the world, if Trump seizes power. Our children’s future will look a lot darker.

I guess the lesson here is: we should all vote for RFK Jr. ;)

@gorillapaws I would rather die, than play such a game, as you described. Death, would be preferable to me.

If there is ever a real reason to overthrow the government, they can always say “we gave you options, you played along.”

That’s what ANY vote is. A silent agreement, that you are OK with how things are.

These snake oil politicians, are like monsters that die if you don’t look at them. If (and I am aware this is unrealistic) absolutely nobody voted, THAT would send a real message not just to our leaders, but to the world so that perhaps they won’t go to war with us because of one of these assholes that they believe represent us.

I didn’t ask to be born. I didn’t choose the circumstances of my origin. But. I WAS born in a country that was supposed to be this great thing. A beacon of hope, to not just US citizens, but the whole world of “freedom.”
I have lived mostly in the US, and have payed taxes, blah, blah, for decades.

I understand that apparently my idea of a president, and especially my desire for a non-religious candidate, is impossible.

But. I’m not like everyone, in that I will only lower MY standards so far.

@Demosthenes You should vote/not vote, or vote for whomever you want. It’s your right, if you’re eligible, and I certainly like that at least some voters are at least knowledgeable.

I really am ok with going along with the majority, but I can swallow jagged pills easier if I know that the people who are controlling my home country are aware of the people that they are voting for. And of they understand what they want as a voter, and are trying to pursue that end.
I still find it impossible to believe even a sneeze, from Trump’s mouth. But his followers vote against their interests.

The centrists, and mainly liberals that Biden needs, are too easily offended. They are divided over Israel, and a great deal of other things.

The Christian right, don’t sweat things like criminal activity, or corruption, when considering a candidate.
The have root issues, that bring them to the polls, every time, like abortion, immigration, and LBGTQ + inclusion.
This is a RNC strategy, from before Trump.

It works great for getting conservative votes. It’s as if conservatives have never noticed that those issues are NEVER actually addressed by their elected representatives.

The people further center, to left, have more principles, than their red counterparts.
Issues that they are passionate about, make them splinter and third-party candidates are typically just a lucky coincidence for the right. As they justify a division of left support, and fraction it.

It would be difficult (not impossible,) for the DNC to get behind a person who checks ALL of a voter’s boxes.

And so. IF you want to play along, you HAVE to understand that a vote for anyone but Biden, IS a vote FOR Trump.

@MrGrimm888 “It would be difficult (not impossible,) for the DNC to get behind a person who checks ALL of a voter’s boxes.”

I’ve only got a few “MUST HAVES”:
1. Don’t be corrupt and that means small dollar funding only.
2. Don’t commit genocide or help someone else commit genocide (an ideal candidate would take steps to prevent an active genocide—but we’re talking about bare minimums here).
3. Can’t have raped, sexually assaulted or murdered anyone in the past.
4. Treat climate change as an existential threat to humanity and act accordingly.

Biden literally fails all 4.

@MrGrimm888 “F you want to play along, you HAVE to understand that a vote for anyone but Biden, IS a vote FOR Trump.”

This is mathematically false.

^Math, unfortunately, is not the primary variable in a US POTUS election. See Trump’s first term.
Thanks Electoral College.~

I agree with you, on Biden. I was unaware of any sexual, or violent stuff, but nothing surprises me, when it comes to politicians.
Unless you mean him being complicit, or someone who could have stopped it.

Even your 4 benchmarks, are too many to compete with the conservatives though. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have standards.
But… Trump just needs immigration, economy, abortion.
Twisted, and factually inaccurate versions of these issues, and of course no real plan. But saying small words, really loud, and frequently, is all that Trump requires.

Have you ever had fruit flies?
The things can not just survive in abysmal circumstances, they thrive.
Trump and his cancerous, divisive, fascist followers will tolerate anything he does.

If you wish him to not be POTUS, you need to temporarily lower your 4, to 1. A different 1.
1. He isn’t Trump.

I realize that such a vote, would compromise your values, and that it would essentially bail out a DNC, that maintains that exact selling point (we’re not him.)
However.
I stand by my opinion, that a vote for anyone else, is FOR Trump. That’s what his camp is counting on. And regardless of how we feel about it, that’s the scenario.

If there are more realistic, non-violent ways of keeping Trump from office (unfortunately we can’t count on the system that should have disqualified, or imprisoned Trump,) I would love to hear some suggestions. Seriously.

@MrGrimm888 “I realize that such a vote, would compromise your values, and that it would essentially bail out a DNC, that maintains that exact selling point (we’re not him.)”

You’re missing a crucial point. It’s that the DNC is the one manufacturing the greatest evil. They created Trump, and they’ll continue to make more Trumps forever to force this lesser of two argument….until they’re stopped that is. They’re trying to help the most extreme Republicans win primaries.

“I stand by my opinion, that a vote for anyone else, is FOR Trump.”

Let me break it down to help make it clear. Let’s say in my district Biden and Trump are both tied at 10,000 votes each. If I then vote for Dr. Cornel West, then both candidates are still tied. If I vote for Trump then, Trump would have one additional vote and he would win. See how those to outcomes are different?

^But if you voted for Biden, he has 10,00*1* votes, and Trump has 10,000. That’s the only relevant aspect, to me.

I totally understand your point.
I just don’t think either party, or any politician, or lawmaker will care who you voted for.

Your vote will only even make any headlines, on a wall of voter stats in your district. CNN is not going to do 15 minutes on the 113 votes for Cornel West.

It is the end, that matters. And the ends, occasionally justify the means.

You want to wear something, or carry a sign with your view to the voting place, you’ll get more attention. But IF, you play, you have to understand the rules.

The government, by far and wide, doesn’t give a shit about any of us. They won’t see your vote, as a reason to do anything but run negative ads about West.

Honestly. This has been a strategy of Trump’s. He’s been trying to make all of this look like the dems, are the problem.
I agree with you, on that.

But let’s triage here. Trump is the by far the most dangerous current laceration.
Once you vote him out, and stop the bleeding, THEN you work on the broken bones (the dems.)

That, is just my opinion. But I feel like I’m calling it correctly.

Trump is a symptom of the disease, of a broken system.
Broken on both sides, and from each angle.

American voters have this delusion, that they have a choice. And because they have a vote, they have some power in the way the government works.
But that’s total bullshit.
Realistically, voters choose from 1 of 2 candidates, that the parties want, because they think their guy will be best for advancing their agendas.

Isn’t it obvious to everyone, WHY we have two really old men running? Biden will “play ball,” and attempt to maintain the course, whatever that is to the dems.
Trump is a classically easy to manipulate person as well. They let him sign some EOs on camera, but that’s just to give Trump the illusion of power.
Funny thing though, for the GOP, Trump became a puppet who didn’t respond to his masters.
They used him, to get a lot of things done. Namely the strategic placements of numerous yesmen conservative judges.
The SCOTUS judges Trump installed, remarkably seem to be helping him avoid criminal prosecution.

Trump was absolutely NEVER remotely qualified for ANY office. In that regard, I was always worried about someone that over their head. He galvanized most of my biggest fears about him.

He’s a different animal now. He’s 100% ALL IN, on this. He has to become POTUS, to avoid the laws of this country.
I’m not sure who he really owes, or what, for his conveniently last minute recollection that he had $500 million, on the day he would have finally faced some ramifications for his actions.

And again, I firmly believe that the voting process, is just a way of giving people a false sense of power. Every vote, is not just for whichever candidate, it is a vote for more of the same 4 years from now. (IF Trump leaves.)

Before Trump, most people’s lives weren’t so tied to who the president was. Republican, or Democrat, ordinary people’s lives were usually about the same.
But that was before the Christian zealots decided to try and take the country, while they still had white Christians in power.
And THAT, plus whatever Trumpisms come with him, should be more than reason to do anything in your power to stop that.
IF, you vote.

Going back to your scenario of the tie. They would just hold special elections, like when Herschel Walker was narrowly avoided in GA.
Politicians HATE such things, because they believe that people change their votes, which IS the point of the election to begin with.

Neither math, nor the rigged voting districts, will hurt Trump. His sheep are too willingly ignorant. They don’t even care that voting for Trump, is voting against the majority of their claimed beliefs.

@MrGrimm888 “I just don’t think either party, or any politician, or lawmaker will care who you voted for.”

I’m not worried about them. I want help bend the curve on the thinking of Democratic voters. When they see a corrupt candidate that the establishment loves, they’ll think to themselves: “This person isn’t electable” because enough of the left will vote 3rd party and we have to get them on board. By voting 3rd party we’re sending a signal to re-define what “electable” means. Maybe in 2028 people will keep that in mind during primaries.

“But let’s triage here. Trump is the by far the most dangerous current laceration. Once you vote him out, and stop the bleeding, THEN you work on the broken bones (the dems.)”

This is where we disagree. I agree that Trump is every bit as horrible as you say. I recognize and agree that Trump may try to turn America into a dictatorship and understand how terrifying that is. AND STILL I believe the DNC is a bigger threat because they effectively ALREADY EXERT A DICTATORSHIP on the left and they’re preventing all action on climate change except token gestures. This is an existential threat to humanity. The DNC can’t be repaired while it’s in power. What you’re proposing has been proposed over an over again and isn’t working. It’s turtles all the way down.

Hopefully if Trump wins again people will wake the fuck up and realize that the DNC needs to be torn down and replaced or rebuilt from the ground up. “Lesser of two evils” IS the greatest evil because it threatens humanity. And if Biden manages to win (or whoever the DNC installs if they get him to drop out after the primary is officially over and the risk of a progressive has been prevented again, then perhaps people like myself will rattle other voters enough to realize that we’re serious and that the DNC is the reason they keep coming so close to total disaster.

@gorillapaws – facilitating a Trump win is not bending the curve towards environmental action. It is a repudiation of the concept of climate change and a guarantee that it will be years before anyone at the top executive level will give anything close to a shit about it. If we lose our democracy the planet has no chance against climate change.

I wish liberals would spend as much time and effort destroying and rebuilding their vile right-wing party than they do scolding people who aren’t cool with committing genocide or ending life on the planet.

@Smashley “facilitating a Trump win is not bending the curve towards environmental action. It is a repudiation of the concept of climate change and a guarantee that it will be years before anyone at the top executive level will give anything close to a shit about it. If we lose our democracy the planet has no chance against climate change.”

With the totalitarian DNC we’re doomed. The only chance is to replace the DNC with something better, and that won’t happen if they keep forcing lesser of two evils. Again, you don’t have to convince me of how scary a Trump presidency is. I fully understand that. You guys are failing to understand just how scary the death spiral we are with the DNC subverting Democracy. They just canceled primaries and gave the seat to Biden (e.g. Florida). That’s totalitarianism. If they were worried about the “spoiler effect” then they’d be working overtime in getting rank-choice voting, but the DNC fights tooth-and-nail against rank-choice voting in order to force lesser-of-two-evils.

I’m not saying I want Trump to win. I’m just explaining that the greatest evil in this whole thing is the DNC itself.

Also, it’s pretty bold to trot out “lesser of two evils” bullshit – now, of all fucking times.

If people are ok with carpet-bombing children, ethnic cleansing, attacks on freedom of speech, attacks on higher education, and complete disregard for anything resembling international law, then go vote for Biden or Trump. Just don’t expect people to be moved by lectures about “democracy” or scare tactics. The shit that you fear is happening now – and it’s being done by the people who are the “lesser” in your pretend scenario.

@gorillapaws – “I’m not saying I want Trump to win” Ummm….

You see the DNC as the greatest evil, and advocate for taking a non-position in a federal election in protest. This means that whoever wins, you contributed to that win by discarding your vote. You voted for the one who wins. If you see the DNC as the greatest evil, you are helping them win by abstaining, or you are helping Trump to win by abstaining. You can have your opinions, but your vote shows an apathy towards which evil takes power, and volunteers to the victors that your opinions need not be considered in any future election.

@Smashley I’m not abstaining. I’m voting for the candidate I like the best. That’s how elections work. If people want me to vote for them then they should support policies that I think are important such as preventing the planet from becoming uninhabitable in a substantial and meaningful way that’s consistent with what climate scientists are saying is necessary.

Doesn’t it not make a difference who we vote for, since it’s the Electoral Vote that counts anyway? At least, that’s the way it was when Hillary ran. She got the Popular Vote but it was the Electoral Vote that gave us Trump.

^I’ve mentioned that, when GP was talking about it being a simple matter of math. (Which of course, it should be.)

@gorillapaws As I said, I believe that I was once very much in line with your agenda.
I have nothing much more to say, and I understand your position.
I REALLY REALLY hope you’re correct, in you’re attempts at making a change. One certainty we can likely both agree on is that doing absolutely nothing, will not change anything.
You have to play, to win. That much is true.
Good luck. I’m hoping this doesn’t come off, as insincere.
I’m too jaded, paranoid, and I have practically lost ALL “faith,” in the United States of America.
I don’t make that statement lightly, or with any glee.

If we are to have a better future, as a country, we’ll need people like you.

As far as trying to destroy the DNC, I think one of the myriad of groups or people on his “shit list,” include many democrats.
Once that Trump engine gets going again, he will attack his “enemies,” with ALL the power he can muster/abuse in office.

Biden, will sadly probably not be remembered as a good POTUS, although he did pretty good. As far as how low my bar is these days. He will be investigated thoroughly, perhaps like Trump, until they find something.
Everyone at that level, has dirt.
They’ll find something.
I already remember some thing Biden was on camera, talking to someone about essentially using his office, as VP, to influence somebody. I’m sure Wulf, knows what I’m talking about. It’s an old video. But it sadly confirmed, to me, that Biden was unfit for office.
What should be noted, us that his party essentially pulled him off the sofa, to beat Trump.
Joe answered the call.
He was never supposed to see a second term. I’m 100% positive Joe would not be running, if the DNC had developed some alternatives.

Hopefully, Trump gets SOMEONE, whom he trusts, to give him good advice and actually listens to them occasionally.
The list of his former underlings who had frequently criticized him, includes almost everyone he ever worked with.
I think he just had Rudy, in the end of his last term. Being as his VP, was almost publicly lynched by a mob of excited tourists as they were peacefully protesting (and shitting) in the Capitol Building.

I mean, gosh. It’s CRYSTAL clear, that everyone learned from that, and Trump has been disqualified from ever even running again.~
I’m sure the American people will respond to this third party protest.~
I’m sure Trump has learned from everything, and will be a far better ruler, than when he was laughing stock of the world.~
I’m excited about America’s potential, going forward.~

Are you watching world?
WE are THE best country in history!
This, is how it’s done. Boooyah!

Unfortunately it’s a two party system. Those parties can die and change, but it’s the two. Not voting for either is a vote to not be consulted next time, and a vote to not participate. Perhaps third party votes help bring on the time when the large parties collapse, but admit what you are trying to do: make one side lose so hard that it breaks and is forced to reorganize and realign.

My argument is that both parties require this treatment, but it will be at least a 20 year project, and a further Trump presidency would take zero steps towards reforming either party, arguably for longer than four years as his inability to run will prevent him from losing as much as often as he would.

Republicans are absolute bat shit, and they have naively, selfishly, greedily, and unAmericanly, elevated Trump for power, promises and spite. The party deserves to be gutted and ruined and destroyed forever and this election is that chance. If the party can be killed or so effectively gutted that it changes completely in character, you will see the rise of a new, realigned conservative electorate that will speak to gen Z and absolutely trash the democrats for a decade until they themselves die or change.

I don’t vote.
And I don’t expect to be considered next time.
I promise nobody considered me, this time.
Voting, to me, says “I will participate in putting someone into the most powerful seat in the world, and I’m OK with that being the lesser of whatever each/both parties want and how the process works.”
Most of these losers, are career politicians. They only care, about saying whatever keeps them in office.

Regardless of the candidate, they’re absolutely saying the same thing. The ironies are not just present, they are persistent.

I don’t agree with “all candidates are the same” so I’m not going to vote. All candidates are not the same and by boycotting the electoral process you are making it much more likely that a candidate who is very much not the same will get elected. Enjoy voting while you can, it is not a god given right it is a privilege that can be lost at any time.

^Rights come from agreements within societies. Voting is a right because we have agreed it to be. No right exists that cannot be taken away, no right is inherently inalienable, but we do not call them privileges. If you want to keep voting around, do not refer to it as such.

Privilege?
If anyone this coming November feels “privileged,” to be choosing from one of these two, I’m envious of their blissful ignorance.

Being POTUS, is a privilege.