General Question

seawulf575's avatar

Was there a second shooter trying to kill Donald Trump in Butler PA?

Asked by seawulf575 (17137points) July 20th, 2024

An assassination attempt happened. The agency investigating the situation is coming up with poor answers to questions such as not having sharp shooters on the roof the shooter was on because the roof was sloped. This allows people to start digging deeper and ask more and more questions. It is inevitable.

This video gives a very interesting analysis of the scene by who is supposed to be an engineer that shows Crooks may not have been the shooter at all (not to say he didn’t shoot) but rather the predesignated patsy.

What are your thoughts? Could there have been a second shooter? Please don’t give general comments if you haven’t at least looked at the video.

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31 Answers

seawulf575's avatar

I also just came across this that shows there are whistleblowers that claim the majority of Trump’s security detail were not in fact Secret Service but were part of the Department of Homeland Security Investigations department. It doesn’t sound like we are getting complete transparency.

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Pandora's avatar

@seawulf575 I think its all pretty clear. This is government bureaucracy at best. Too many people involved in stuff usually leads to confusion about who is doing what. This is what happens when you get too many cooks in the same kitchen and no chef. Crap gets burned or badly done. Doesn’t mean this was plotted out. Just look at the shooting. I saw a video where someone far away from Trump was shot. This kid was a bad shot or just aiming anywhere. I’m thinking suicidal but wanted to go out being forever mentioned in history books.

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Kropotkin's avatar

There was a security failure. It could be interesting to know why there was.

As for this video…

We know where Crooks was on the roof because there’s live footage of his body there. There’s no need to rely on some inconsistent and incorrect graphics put out by the graphics departments of some news organisations, or “AiTelly”.

Witness reports from the ground claimed the shot came from behind the bleachers, which is consistent with where Crooks’s body was found. Bleachers that aren’t even shown in the graphics.

The “analyst” keeps talking about calculating things, yet no calculation is ever presented. The line he asserts is the correct angle of the shot appears to be based on absolutely nothing other than a very subjective interpretation of where Trump is looking.

From my own view, the analyst seems to be underestimate Trump’s head angle. It looks parallel to the podium to me, which again is completely consistent with where Crooks’s body was found and from where he would have fired.

Crooks did simply miss. Had the bullet been an inch to the right, he’d have killed or seriously injured Trump, no matter what his head angle was. Trump’s habit to move his head a lot may have helped saved him too.

There’s no reason to assert that that “open window” was actually insecure based on what seems to be one remark from someone who didn’t have all the information at the time.

It seems to me that the analyst in the video you link is really just trying to confirm his pet theory about a shooter from the open window, without any real evidence, and nothing but speculation and conjecture.

chyna's avatar

I did watch the video. I think once they have all bullets and casings accounted for, it will give an accurate picture of what happened.
Edited to add: there also should be some evidence of Crooks having contact with “deep state sniper” by messaging or other means.
If there was a second shooter, they had to be in cahoots with Crooks to have shot so closely in time with him.
The shots fired in the video you posted do sound different to me. I’ll be interested in hearing the evidence and explanation in the coming days.

seawulf575's avatar

@Kropotkin Nice answer. Thank you.

seawulf575's avatar

@chyna I also wonder a couple things about the event. (1) how many pieces of brass were found by Crooks and did they all come from his gun. (2) what was the caliber of the bullets that hit civilians in the background and did the caliber and markings match his gun.

Those two things would go a long way towards dispelling the idea of a second shooter, though so far all the answers we are getting and the stonewalling that is starting is screaming that there is something being hidden.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I tried Wulf. I had to start skipping around.

My phone thinks I’m a Trumper, because I use the net and YouTube to research firearms.
I recently was replacing springs in my magazines for one of my firearms. And I usually buy a box of 50–100 rounds of a very rare round, almost monthly. I have to chase the most reasonable prices.

I have already seen, a LOT of very similar, not as long videos.

They even talked about it on Joe Rogan. Rogan’s take? This confirms we are living in a simulation. Life gets crazier and crazier, every day.

I have yet, to see any AARs (after activity reports,) or actual evidence collected by anyone who would be able to represent the FBI, and/or SS, or even local Police (YET.) So far ,to my knowledge, there have just been some press releases.

This was a live event, and MANY people saw it unfold live. There ARE a plethora of views.
This was in broad daylight.

Later, in your video, a man keeps mentioning the two types of weapons heard. He beats that horse pretty hard, considering we know the semiautomatic fire, was the shooter, and the “ka-kow” noises were from one or more SS snipers. The snipers appear to be using some form of modified Remington 700 (great choice.) In my mind, it’s unlikely just one sniper fired. It seems more like one if them fired, then the other, then the first guy having rechambered a second round shot again.
I know that if what I hear, was what happened, the sounds add up. Even your guy’s guest speaker admitted he wasn’t sure about echoes, in an area full of metal buildings. He could have stopped there, as the rational part if his brain seemed to understand that there did not seem to be a problem there.

The host relies a LOT, on Google Earth. And I’m not certain how he came up with his trajectories or most of his measurements and calculations.

As of THIS moment, you are correct that we don’t in fact know EVERYTHING.
Although the myriad of footage I’ve seen seems pretty consistent, I don’t know the ballistics reports, or honestly if the shooter even had GSR/GPR (gun powder residue,) on his person.
I don’t know if the AR, had evidence of being fired, or was perhaps 4 rounds short from being fully loaded.
The damage doled to the kill zone, wounding Trump and killing another, who may have been trying to help yet another person who was hit.
To me, the kill zone exhibited evidence consistent with 4 rounds of .556 × 45 mm bullets, coming in hot from an AR platform. Remember those NATO rounds, are really moving, but actually a pretty small projectile. There is a great photo, of a bullet zipping by Trump’s head. It just looks like the air should look, reacting to a barely subsonic projectile. The picture I’m speaking particularly about, really just shows the air streak.

Local Police officers led by the crowd, got a peak at the shooter right before he fired. So. At least one officer saw someone, laying there with the rifle recovered, before he shot.
But that’s all I am aware of, as far as close witnesses. That officer may have had a body cam, potentially confirming this.

I’m almost certain that the snipers had some type of camera too. But unless it had optic magnification, I doubt we can see much detail from that distance.

I am still fairly certain that if they can actually collect enough shots, we will piece them all together.

As far as the open window, I believe it was a warehouse building, but could be wrong.

Warehouses are subject to specific fire codes, and some cannot have locked windows or doors. The building was “secured,” by local PD, from what I heard.
It would be nice to see footage from the officers who cleared that building.

The AR, would have automatically ejected it’s empty rounds, likely upward or to the right. But those would have been EASY to throw on the ground anytime before the shooting. Since we’re essentially trying to find room for a possible conspiracy.
Even if ballistics prove that the people hit, were hit by bullets from THAT weapon, they wouldn’t have had to come from the four spent cartridges, unless they don’t match them at all. Which would be super sloppy, if done by someone who would have rigged this.

The snipers, likely pocket their spent cartridges after each firing. People who train for that type of work, habitually keep their spent cartridges, in case they are being tracked by another person.

Assuming all of the evidence is authentic, and ballistics match, I don’t see much to be excited about.

It actually makes FAR more sense, that a lone gunman, willing to trade his life for his target, and apparently having done reconnaissance before hand was the shooter.

As I mentioned, the crowd being full of similar looking people, didn’t hurt the guy’s chances.

It is odd, to me, that he was using the range finder before the incident. Reports I’ve heard said he had already been there, and even may have flown a drone over the area for better detail.
So. I would think he already knew the approximate distance from where he chose to shoot.

Then again. He seems like just a kid, who “Mr. Magoo“ed his way through layers of security. So. We may find more mistakes.

In addition, he was found with an unknown device. Speculation is that he may have wanted to detonate one or more explosives. They found a bomb-like device in his vehicle, and at his home.

I was thinking. The last thing Crooks likely saw, was a bloody Trump in process of being sheltered. So. He probably died, thinking he succeeded.

So far. This shooter, reminds me of all the home PC detectives making these videos about the incident.

But I can entertain all sorts if theories, until the facts come in.

One thing is certain. They canceled Christmas on some guy on that roof.

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mazingerz88's avatar

Trump was of course an idiot and those SS agents as well for allowing him to pump his fist instead of swiftly getting him off the stage. If there was a second shooter he was pretty much an open target.

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seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I understand the length and the repetition was a bit long winded. But there were more than 4 shots. There were closer to 7 or 8. There were 3 initially, then the 4, then at least one more. The SS sniper fired one round to kill Crooks. I am with you that there are the 4 shots that sound like a smaller caliber round like a 5.56. Higher pitch. The initial 3, though, were lower sounding…bigger caliber by the sound of it.

As for pocketing the brass, there are two problems with that. Crooks never trained for that supposedly. His shots were too close together for him to get the brass after each shot. And he was killed in situ. So even if he did pocket brass (which seems unlikely), they should be able to count the brass easily…it was in his pocket. Otherwise they have to look on the roof or off the edge in the grass a few feet to his right.

As I said earlier, the other thing that I wonder about is where the civilians that were shot were sitting. Hard to tell but it looked like it was in the stands to the right of Trump (as you are facing him) and on the end by where they evacuated Trump. If that is the case, it was nowhere in line with where Crooks was. He’d have had to have been shooting several feet behind Trump to hit anyone over there.

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jca2's avatar

I watched half of the video. It’s an interesting theory.

I heard one of the heads of the local Butler PD on radio show, saying one of the officers was hanging on the roof, looking right at Crooks but since he (the officer) was hanging on with both hands, he was unable to access his gun or radio, and had no choice but to duck his head so Crooks couldn’t see him. Not that I think the local police are responsible for anything at all, but it’s preposterous to me, what this person was saying.

It’s amazing that this happened at all. Imagine if Trump was assassinated on video? I think it makes the SS look very incompetent. I think the explanation about why there were no agents on the roof makes no sense, when there were snipers able to stand on the other roof.

I heard there’s supposed to be a hearing on this tomorrow in Washington DC but the head of the SS said she might not be able to attend.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I never said Crooks would pocket his empty cartridges (not necessarily brass btw,) I said they would have ejected automatically either up, or to the right. Assuming it was not a special left handed version. Which even lefties don’t usually use. If there aren’t at least 4 cartridges recovered, THAT would be impossible. I have not heard, yet, of such details.

The snipers, likely from a previous branch of the military, being trained with bolt fed weapons, people who train as snipers typically would almost by nature pick up their spent cartridges. Most can simply tilt the rifle when rechamberiing, simultaneously grabbing the empty cartridges whilst the springs in the weapons feeding system will pop another round up too. It would be a single overall motion, IF they fired more than once. (Only slightly more than likely, but still a good guess.)

The shooter, was firing (I think,) at a bleacher backed podium area. Obviously targeting Trump, but also (perhaps even erratically as I believe the shooter took the first round almost as he fired the first of 4+?) giving all projectiles a bit of a different trajectory.
Now, this is MY opinion.
The snipers fired 3 times. The distinct different other noise you’re talking about.
Remember. Two or three Police officers had just been alerted by the crowd of Crooks. All of this was likely over radio for most to hear. Like when they let Trump up, everyone hears threat clear.

We know that one of the those cops, did see Crooks, moments before he seemed to shoot.
It’s my belief that the snipers were aware of the possible threat, the cops just identified.
Or. They may have just been frosty, and saw Crooks before he shot.
One sniper fired the 1st (likely kill shot,) and was rechambering as the other sniper fired the 2nd hit on Crooks. By then the sniper who fired first had reloaded, and fired the 3rd (final SS shot.)

Crooks had been briefly distracted by the Policeman he took aim at, before the officer dove away. Then he turned back towards Trump. Required his target (admittedly with great speed and a steady hand,) and right as he squeezed the trigger he was hit by the first sniper round. The last few shots were still in that direction, but being fired by the nerves in Crooks’ dead hand.

The snipers, were firing at Crooks, on an elevated position, surrounded by flat metal surfaces. If you’ve ever bounced a basketball in a neighborhood, we know that it echoes off of the flat garages and flat surfaces of the buildings.

Crooks, was firing into a target with almost no background.

At THIS point with the information I have gone to (some length now,) to investigate, I don’t suspect anything about another person even being present.
In broad daylight, on international TV, surrounded by cameras and people, this happened as recorded.

Now. Having said that, I am not saying that someone involved with security may have been incompetent, or paid to be incompetent. I’m sure we’ll NEVER hear the end of speculation.

I hear, the father of the shooter, had 14 firearms that I guess he also owned. Not much, to some, too much for others.
At any rate, the detail that I’M a bit stuck on, is Crooks picking an AR-15.
If his father’s has 14 more guns, I’d be shocked he didn’t have maybe several hunting rifles.
I’ve already said, that’s not a wise choice for trying to shoot a likely boby armor wearing target, and he’s likely to only get one shot.

It makes me feel like, he chose THAT weapon, because of the polarization of it and it’s nefarious reputation.
Personally, I would hunt that to trail’s end, for possible motivation. So far, I haven’t seen much, other than he seems like a likely conservative (apparently extremist.)
I’ve heard he may have wanted a soft target, and maybe Trump added something to it. I DON’T know.
Trying to pull a mass shooting, at a presidential rally, is NOT a soft target.

Who knows what this psycho kid, was really about.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@jca2 Alledgedly. The roof’s pitch, was considered a hazard. Something like that. So. They just “secured” that building.
A lot of people, have some pretty poor excuses so far.

jca2's avatar

Grimmy, yes that’s what the SS Director is saying but if the other roofs can be stood on by snipers I don’t see why the roof with the shooter couldn’t. I admit to being a total armchair quarterback but it will be interesting to hear her answers when there’s a hearing she attends.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 According to witnesses and the SS, they only fired one shot to kill Crooks. It was one SS shooter, one shot. And that would have come after all the other shooting. There were at least 8 shots prior to them shooting. And by the sound, it was from at least 2 different guns.

seawulf575's avatar

Another oddity with the entire scenario that is being presented is how they identified Crooks. According to reports, they identified him by DNA testing and facial recognition software. I’m having a really hard time with this. The shooting happened at 6:12 pm on July 13th. The FBI didn’t start to head to the scene until 9 pm that night. They announced Crooks’ identity the next morning.

So the story is that DNA testing was obtained after they got there, taken to the FBI lab for analysis, they analyzed it, did a comparison against….what? to determine his identity. He was supposedly a clean cut kid of 20 years of age. No criminal record. But this was all done with the announcement coming early on the 14th of July (the next morning). I’m not sure how long it takes to run a DNA test once the sample is in the lab, but I can bet it is a couple hours at least to separate out the DNA from the sample and then to analyze that DNA. And that’s if the instrumentation is all set up and tested, ready to go. And in a case like this I’m sure they did a confirmation test just to ensure they had it right. So using DNA testing seems odd.

Likewise facial recognition software. Yep, they could get a picture of his face. A face that just had a bullet go through the head. It was likely not the best picture he ever had. But then we run into the other problem: using that picture to identify him. By their own claim, he had no social media presence to speak of. He was never in trouble with the law. So how did they have his picture in their database to compare it to? Again, seems odd.

elbanditoroso's avatar

read the paper today. They identified the gun from its registration ten years ago. It was registered to Crooks’ father. They called old Mr Crooks.

No conspiracy

seawulf575's avatar

@elbanditoroso That’s interesting. PA doesn’t have a gun registry and, in fact, has laws prohibiting one.

https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/registration-in-pennsylvania/

chyna's avatar

Re: bullet sounds:
I watched/listened to several different videos of the shooting so I wouldn’t just have wulfies post to go by.
It seems like to me there are 3 different sounds. The first few from Crooks, another set, then as Trump is grabbing his ear I hear a faint single shot.
Does anyone else hear this?

seawulf575's avatar

@elbanditoroso I cannot because WaPo wants me to subscribe. I read the title and the first couple lines and it hits me as being suspicious. ATF doesn’t have a registry either. There is no national registry. The states can keep their own registries if they want. What I showed you shows that the state keeps a record of handgun sales but not long gun sales. There are several sections where it says specifically they (the state police) are to destroy records for long guns sales and background checks within 72 hours of the background check.

So either the ATF is inadvertently telling us they are keeping a gun registry illegally or the story is bogus.

seawulf575's avatar

@chyna The first three sounds are lower pitched than a 5.56 rifle (what Crooks had). The 5.56 bullet is about the same size as a .22 caliber bullet. The difference between the two is the amount of gun powder in the cartridge…the 5.56 has a bit more. But the 4–7 shot sounds are closer to what that would sound like. The first 3, being lower pitched, sound more like maybe a .308 sized round. I don’t have a tuned ear for telling exactly the sizes, but I have shot all three and have an idea. There was a 3rd sound at the end that may have been the SS sniper shooting Crooks.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I’ve never heard anyone dispute the visual and auditory proof, of the 3 and 4 shots…
@jca2 Yeah. I am fully aware of how pathetic an excuse yhe pitch was, which was i I brought it up.
I imagine that thinking process will be visited in the following days, many times.

Hindsight is a very tempting filter to view things through.
EVERYTHING was planned poorly, at this point.

A timely, sober, methodical analysis of the event should make things look better.
Everyone is mad at the wedding planner, but we never even had cake…

I would opine, that Biden’s sudden departure from the race, obviously ruins most conspiracies. But. If someone wants to see something, they will.

Perhaps the single most relevant variable, is the one few are talking about. The fact we still have candidates, in person, at these events. And there is rarely much protection for a VIP, once at the podium.

The JDK assassination, in the worst way possible, illustrated why having such important people riding around in convertibles was ALWAYS a horrible strategy.

At this point in America, there are far more guns than people.
Drone tech, is constantly redefining the modern battlefield.

Being honest about that, and acting accordingly, is the best way to avoid assassinations.

Hundreds of thousands of Americans risk being murdered, just doing regular things in their communities.
Is it SO surprising, and maybe even fair play, our politicians have to risk the same?

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