Do you think XX men should be able to compete with women?

”. .most XX males appear to have typical body and pubic hair, penis size, libido, and erectile function.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6681203/

Therefore they would not look like females, they would not know they had DSD unless they tested for XX ! !

@Tropical_Willie you can answer for transgender men only if you want to.

I think XX men have lower testosterone, and might even cycle. I don’t know how significantly different the hormones are.

“XX males appear to have typical body and pubic hair, penis size, libido, and erectile function”

They are missing A VAGINA ! ! ! ! ! @JLeslie

@Tropical_Willie Stop yelling. They usually have higher FSH and LH. Those are the hormones that women have for cycling. That’s all I meant. I am just talking about hormones. Some men discover they are XX when their breasts start growing in puberty or when they find out they are infertile.

Are you going to answer about transgender men or just keep obsessing about 46, XX men?

I really don’t understand what you are getting at, are you saying the outward genitalia matters more than anything else about a person regarding competition?

Do they have a vagina ? ? ?

@Tropical_Willie Some of the transmen might or might not. Does it matter?

What are you trying to get out of all of this? You clearly have an issue about things that have no impact on you personally. Very few people are impacted by transgender people in sports.

@jonsblond I’m just curious if people look at it equally from both directions.

I think they should be able to compete with women if hormone levels and stature are like women. I think XX men would almost never have a chance in most men’s sports if they love sports. I don’t know, maybe soccer and tennis it wouldn’t matter, but some sports it would.

Why do transmen get almost no chance if they were only allowed to compete with men, and transwomen and XY women get even more of a chance in terms of strength than anyone else in the population? @Tropical_Willie seems to not care about hormones and chromosomes and just outward appearance.

Many Q’s on fluther we aren’t impacted by personally, but we still can have opinions.

I found this article that shows there are some rules in some competitions that require XY women to suppress their hormones. https://japantoday.com/category/features/opinions/sex-eligibility-rules-for-female-athletes-are-complex-and-legally-difficult.-here's-how-they-work I’m not saying it’s right or wrong to require it, I don’t know the final fair thing to do.

Anyway, my concern is for people in this situation, and I asked you to this Q, because you do have some personal knowledge.

You certainly don’t have to answer, you can just criticize me for even asking instead or you could have ignored the Q.

In the Olympics one of the female runners sometimes presents herself as a man. I 100% agree with letting her run with the women.

Are there any studies that show that they have more male or female performance profiles? That should be what decides. How often does this actually happen?

There are experts in intersex biology. I’m certainly not one of them. I would defer to what the experts say about it. I also think these topics are wedge issues designed to split people who otherwise agree on +90% of issues. I’d be completely indifferent on the issue if there were any trans or intersex athletes competing wherever they wanted to compete.

The only one that feels weird is athletes with breast competing in wrestling with men. I can just see a guy grappling around and getting a boob in his hand unintentionally and that not only being painful to the person to which the boob belongs, but also starts to get into sexual violence territory. It’s fuzzy and I don’t know enough to speak intelligently on it.

@gorillapaws I disagree letting trans females compete with other females. It’s completely unfair to the other females. A mediocre biological male pro athlete will usually mop the floor with the best female athletes in strength and endurance based sports.

@Blackwater_Park And what’s the alternative? and what’s the harm caused by the alternative?

@gorillapaws: “The only one that feels weird is athletes with breast competing in wrestling with men.”

Never been to a high-school wrestling meet? My son did wrestling last year, and girls wrestle the boys. It’s based on weight. There is a ton of technique, and this is just not an issue. Many of the boys were just destroyed. My son was beat many times during practice by a senior girl who had been wrestling for years.

We’d go to regional meets, and nearly every town had girls on the team. I’m not sure I see what the problem is. Not everything has to be complicated.

At least one, of the Olympic boxers who recently made headlines, had lost to several actual females.
In boxing (specifically,) strength will only get one so far.

I think that a lot of these types of issues, are dependent upon the sport. And I want to be clear, that I’m with GP, as far as being clear that I am NO expert in the intricacies of the science.

I do love, play, and watch many sports. Including, or formerly boxing, I’ve played a lot of different sports.
Fairness, is always a priority.
But. There have ALWAYS been “anomalous” athletes. As females don’t typically have such great size differences, I’ll stick with males.
I’ve played countless games, of different types, in many cases in recreational or school leagues.
In my experience, it was common for a team, to have at least one significantly bigger, stronger, faster, better player.

And that player, especially in younger leagues, is going to stick out. They’re going to have parents on other teams, calling for proof of age, or upset about such things.
I was usually one of the bigger kids, when I was growing up.
But I still ran into boys (alledgedly my same age) who were way bigger than me.
As I was big, those freakish boys, were usually my assignment.
I distinctly remember a kid I played in the rec league football playoffs every year. We were all like 8–10 years old. This kid, seemed like he was 17.
And he absolutely murdered us, most of the time. We played both sides of the ball, and it didn’t matter what position that kid played, he wrecked the game. I had to match him, in most games. He just kicked my ass. I recall one playoff game, when I saw him running at our return man and I tried to block him. I hit him, with everything I had. The collision was wild.
I actually stopped/slowed him from stopping our score.
I laid on the field, for a minute after, trying to assess exactly how broken the play had left me.
The other kid came and stood over me, and said some less than nice things to me. Including that he would kill me, next time I tried something like that. I believed him, at the time…

In high-school, the basketball teams got WAY better.
Being a 6’4 kid in basketball, in high-school, didn’t even get me a backup role in a team. There were kids dunking at will, and they were just running circles around me.

In professional sports, there are people like that.
I’m absolutely positive, it’s genetics, and maybe some hormonal differences.
But. We are all different. Are we to punish people for how they were born?

Should we remove all records by athletes, who weren’t “balanced?”

I’m just saying that if we analyzed ALL athletes with great scrutiny, we would likely find some “unfair”/abnormal anatomical or physiological differences in the best athletes.

In many sports, a person has to “try out.” This determines if the person is able to physically play the sport, as well as gaging the person’s skill level.
An athlete, regardless of their chromosomes, still has to prove themselves.
My issue is, people automatically assume that having male characteristics, gives them the advantage over even elite players in a sport.
That, is simply false…

I’m tempted to opine that as long as scholarships aren’t being unfairly given to males who identify as females, and it’s just recreational or for fun, it shouldn’t matter about chromosomes and genetics.

And I DO also consider this, a wedge issue. Some extremely rare examples have brought the topic into broader discussion, but the issues involving gender ARE so rare it’s barely worth giving it so much attention.

The issue, apparently gets conservatives mad that it is something that exist.
The liberals want all people to be inclusive.

IF there is a single voter out there, who is going to determine whom they vote for, based solely on THIS issue, I’d be shocked.

@hat “I’m not sure I see what the problem is.”

The concern, as I said, would be sexual violence. If it’s not an issue then it’s not an issue.

What’s the connection between boys and girls wrestling and sexual violence? Is it the same as non-gendered bathrooms and predators?

No, it’s the fact that you are literally grabbing the other person’s chest and could injure genitals. I don’t think that’s common in bathrooms. At least not in prison bathrooms.

You’re not grabbing chests and it’s not sexual violence. It’s a skilled sport. There is nothing sexual about it. If a boy or girl wants to wrestle, they know they are getting involved in a physical sport that will involve pain and injury.

@hat Chests don’t get grabbed in wrestling? Really?

@gorillapaws – I’m going to need you to elaborate on your concern here.

If someone wants to cop a feel and lose a match, go ahead. There is a referee 2 feet from both wrestlers at all times, watching hand placement. Matches are won by centimeters. Are all body parts at play when wrestling? Sure. I’ve watched literally hundreds of matches between boys & boys, girls & boys, and girls & girls. Nothing was ever sexualized and there was nothing resembling “sexual violence”.

If you can elaborate on why you think girls are wrong for participating in wrestling – in detail -I’d love to hear it. Otherwise, it really seems that you’re presenting me with some kind of bathroom predator concern.

@hat I think I’ve been pretty clear. The concern is grabbing and injuring genitals in a violent sport. Causing physical trauma to genitals is sexual violence.

@hat “Nothing was ever sexualized”

I’m not saying it was sexualized, I’m saying definitionally when a man uses his body to injure a woman’s genitals, that’s sexual violence, by definition. It may have been done in service to win a match, but that doesn’t change what occurred.

@hat _“If you can elaborate on why you think girls are wrong for participating in wrestling…”

I don’t think girls are wrong for participating in wrestling. I think there may be issues with men and women wrestling each other. Maybe. The concern is that men could injure women’s genitals during the process of competition. That’s definitionally a form of sexual violence and I’m opposed to sexual violence.

It seems to me, and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, you’re ascribing some sexual gratification component to the violence as a necessary element of the crime. I don’t believe such arousal is required for an act to be considered sexual violence. Nor is consent sufficient to diffuse the concern. A person may consent to sexual violence, but that doesn’t negate the fact that it is sexual violence.

Oh ffs, why did I get involved in this thread?

@gorillapaws: “I think I’ve been pretty clear. The concern is grabbing and injuring genitals in a violent sport. Causing physical trauma to genitals is sexual violence.”

Nope. There are plenty of sports where trauma to genitals is possible, and I’ve never heard anyone describe it as “sexual violence”. Never. That’s wild.

@gorillapaws: “I’m not saying it was sexualized, I’m saying definitionally when a man uses his body to injure a woman’s genitals, that’s sexual violence, by definition. It may have been done in service to win a match, but that doesn’t change what occurred.”

This is way too conservative a take for my brain to grasp. You come here and talk about something that is going on all over the US, completely normalized, is empowering for girls, and you’ve inserted some theoretical genital injury and have that as part of the discourse when discussing gender and sports. It’s fucked up. It’s most definitely sexualizing these kids. You even specified that you’re concerned about a boy injuring a girl’s genitals (something that I’ve never seen happen and never seen a scenario that could even lead to that – despite dozens of boy/girl matches. Are you concerned that boys might injure other boys’ genitals? Is that keeping you up at night? No? Could it be because you have inserted sexuality – heterosexual sexuality – into the sport?

@gorillapaws: “I don’t think girls are wrong for participating in wrestling. I think there may be issues with men and women wrestling each other. Maybe. ”

Ok, this is better. The jury is out. The answer is “no – there is nothing wrong”.

@gorillapaws: “The concern is that men could injure women’s genitals during the process of competition. That’s definitionally a form of sexual violence and I’m opposed to sexual violence.”

So, boys and girls shouldn’t be allowed to play sports together because there is a chance that an injury could possibly occur where the girl’s genitals are injured? This is both an absurdly-conservative take on gender and a take that diminishes what sexual violence actually is.

@gorillapaws: “It seems to me, and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, you’re ascribing some sexual gratification component to the violence as a necessary element of the crime. I don’t believe such arousal is required for an act to be considered sexual violence.”

If I’m playing soccer with men and women, and we collide and she hurts her crotch, that isn’t sexual violence. I can’t believe I have to spell this out.

The only injuries I saw in the hundreds of wrestling matches I watched were: someone dislocated their knee, there were plenty of bloody noses or minor cuts to the face or shoulder.

Anyway, I think we are not going to agree. We’ve argued before about gender and sexuality and have been at odds. I just wanted to point out that, despite your concerns, girls and boys and whatever people want to identify as, are wrestling each other and nobody has any problem with it. I’m not sure what is going on in the bible belt, but in more-civilized parts of the country, this is completely normalized, and is quite empowering.

And it looks like to core of our disagreement here lies in using the term “sexual violence” to describe accidental injuries during contact sports.

@hat “And it looks like to core of our disagreement here lies in using the term “sexual violence” to describe accidental injuries during contact sports.”

That’s true, Though I wouldn’t characterize incidental collisions in this way. Wrestling is entirely different from soccer in the way it’s played. With wrestling you have two people grappling each other. Contact is not accidental, it’s the whole point of the sport.

@hat “The only injuries I saw in the hundreds of wrestling matches I watched were: someone dislocated their knee, there were plenty of bloody noses or minor cuts to the face or shoulder.”

So you’re 100% certain none of the women had bruised breasts after their match? Or maybe they just silently accepted the pain because they wanted to “tough it out?”

@gorillapaws: “So you’re 100% certain none of the women had bruised breasts after their match?”

I’m sure they did – my son had bruises all over. One of the toughest competitors on my son’s team had an issue with her knee following her first match of one of the tournaments (against a girl) and had to ice it and she didn’t wrestle the rest of the day.

And….?

Oh, yeah – this is “sexual violence”, right?

Ok, we’re done here. I don’t think there is hope in bridging this gap.

Girls wrestle boys all the time in HS wrestling. Nothing wrong with it. Strength matters there but so does skill. Skill matters more. Same for martial arts

I think that if competitors feel its an unfair or unsafe match, it should be looked into and a compromise reached.
No one cared until athlete’s complained, I believe.

@gorillapaws

Two words regarding chest grabbing: sports bra.

So. I just wanted to comment on GP’s concerns.

Speaking from a LOT of experience in playing different sports, and also being involved in boxing and MMA, I can promise you that regardless of the gender/gender identity of the participants they often touch each other in places typically off limits.

But. It’s just a necessary evil.
I have has my equipment all over hundreds of other guys, and vice versa.
In football, you’re going to accidentally grab a dude’s package trying to make a tackle, or get grabbed accidentally.

In 2013, The 49ers’ tight end was literally tackled by a defender (Rams’ safety TJ McDonald,) by being dragged down by his penis…
Davis talked about for months, mainly complaining that McDonald never let go.
Not that he was grabbed by his tool. That happens.

“Sportsmanship,” is the key word.

When you’re involved with sports, hands are everywhere.
You just forget about it, unless it’s something over the top…

If we’re talking about Greco-Roman wrestling, it’s already got a lot of positioning and stuff that makes most guys initially think, “this is gay.”..

But. You get used to it, and if you take a good slam, or get smashed, you’re suddenly not thinking about much but the match.

As with many such things, there WILL always be some perverts or “weirdos” (sorry Republicans.)

But. Wrestling especially, is quick and violent. Like @hat said, there’s (supposed to be) a well vetted and experienced referee within feet of the wrestlers. And they are looking very closely at everything.
My personal feelings about co-ed wrestling, is I think it’s important for both genders.
It can give overconfident guys a reality check, being owned by a girl. It can give girls confidence, and they seem to relish the opportunity to prove themselves.
Occasionally. In older age groups, it can educate girls on the real difference in strength between the genders. This is not to rub the difference in their face, but to reach them about how important technique is.

If you don’t start already set, with one wrestler on all fours, and the other behind, when you’re facing each other people are targeting ankles or hips. Speed is super important. I don’t think there is really much opportunity for groping. And. It’s usually done around adults, and misconduct of any kind is strictly prohibited.
Wrestling is uber-competitive. People can become angry quickly, and do stupid things.
It has to be monitored, by cooler heads.

Incidental or accidental contact in “private areas,” is part of sports. You’re commonly covered in each other’s sweat and stink, and if someone doesn’t like that they won’t usually be forced into it.

I don’t think that such a concern is invalid. Not at all. But. People thought about that, a LONG time ago. And we watch people. It may not seem like a referee would have a role in this, but they do. Referees in ALL sports, are there (in part) to protect the players, keep it from getting personal, keep people playing fair , etc.

I’m absolutely certain, that if a girl accused a boy of something sexual, in a match, it would immediately stop, and be investigated.

But. Pick a Saturday and watch some UFC. You’ll see some of the world’s toughest men/women in all sorts of clutches where the face to crotch distance is WAY to close.

Personally. I’m super competitive. The last thing on my mind in a competition is sex.
I have lots of younger nieces and nephews. I’m that guy who will play all of them in basketball, and just try to not even let them score. Tripping kids, fouling, and occasionally carrying a few kids on me as I dunk on their 8ft goal (usually while roaring,) is how I get down.
The kids have always seemed to love it. It would break my heart, into a million pieces, if I thought someone considered any part of it sexual…

I just wanted to throw my thoughts in, as far as that aspect of this discussion…

@MrGrimm888 So just to further beat a dead horse. I could easily picture a girl who got encouraged to participate in wrestling and after puberty she felt uncomfortable wrestling boys as her body was changing, but being told that her concerns are no-big-deal, it’s part of the sport, etc. I can also picture some guys who don’t like wrestling women push the envelope intentionally in ways the ref may not be able to see (they can’t see all angles at all times). And who wants to be the girl that reports the star wrestler that’s going to take your team to the state championships where you might win a scholarship, or maybe get a chance at the Olympics if the right people scout you? “That’s just incidental contact, it’s part of the sport!” or “This is why girls shouldn’t wrestle!” etc. are the kinds of responses she’s likely to hear.

Look at the women’s gymnastics team getting abused by a sick MD that went on for a long time. There’s pressure to conform and not rock the boat in competitive sports. I just think it’s ripe for situations where women could be abused and feel pressured to accept it and stay quiet. I’ve heard lots of men say it’s not an issue, but no women.

And let’s not pretend wrestling is the same as football or soccer. I think we should be able to acknowledge that wrestling is a unique sport with regards to these issues.

@gorillapaws I can tell you were never on the wrestling team back in school.

GP. I believe that situations you’re describing, are exceedingly rare.
I’m not a female, I’d rather not try to comment on some of the issues that you raised.

Again. I’m 100% positive, that there are kids wrestling that are sexually defunct. I just know that things like that, ARE very carefully watched for.
Especially in younger kid’s sports, many of the coaches and refs, are volunteers.
They are there to help their children. Most if these people are paying close attention to their children, and even the people in attendance (gotta look for adult sexual predators.)

We do the best we can. Again. I’m not saying there aren’t any problems. Just that there are multiple ways of trying to stop it.

If a kid (of any gender,) was having an issue with something, there are multiple people who they can talk to/confide in.
☆Speaking from experience, when I’m involved in such things (and I do/have been assistant coach, or strength and conditioning coach, and played other roles in youth sports,) I pay close attention to each child. Just like when I “read a room” when I was a bouncer. Constantly observing each child, so that I can be most effective for them.
And it is more, than just sports stuff. I might try to have a one on one, with a kid who’s always sad, or seems like they’re maybe having personal problems. Maybe I would talk to their parents, or other kids, to see if there’s anything shady going on, or whatever makes me feel like I’m addressing a possible problem.
MANY people, look back at coaches or similar people, as if they were family.
Take new VP candidate T. Walz, for instance. From what I’ve seen (been fed by the media,) he is such a person. A teacher, and a father figure. I guarantee he had many talks with his players (he was a football coach,) about all kinds of things.

Let me put it this way, it’s been my experience, that with most kid’s sports, the adults are not creating or allowing an environment like you suggest.

I disagree that tackle football, is very different from wrestling.
I think the body on body contact, is very similar.
But. That’s kind of a moot point, because typically girls don’t play tackle football with boys. THAT sport, would expose the difference in the genders too much. There’s a difference between a girl being in close quarters with a stronger person/boy, and the blind side collisions in football.

My point, to a great degree, was that most guys don’t play sports, because of the guy on guy physical contact that occasionally results in unwanted touching. They just ignore that aspect. But. It takes some getting used to.
Most kids have trouble with being naked in the locker rooms, and all the other things that come with it. In one old locker room I used to have to use, had no bathroom doors. That was difficult, for me, as I couldn’t use the restroom (at the time,) in front of everyone.
I’m sure there are all kinds of traumatic things that each kid can complain about.
But. Everything is traumatic.

As I said. I cannot delve into the mind, of a young girl who occasionally wrestles boys.
I CAN, however, point to countless women, who grew up doing tthings like that and are bad asses. Rhonda Rousey, for example, was a female who beat MOST males, and could still beat many even as an adult.

Let me try to flip the narrative.
A woman like Rousey? I’d be SO proud of her, if she were my daughter. I bet you she occasionally put up, with some less than nice boys.
I know she wrestled, and competed in judo, judoko, and other MMA type events. And she’s a great person. I mean, she won’t win a Nobel Prize, but she’s a specimen of a woman.

I’m going to go a bit out on a limb, and opine that the vast majority of females involved in wrestling (which essentially guarantees they WILL likely wrestle boys,) are better for the experience.

A lot about hand to hand, or physical competition is that you need experience. Ideally. A wrestler would at least have a few matches with almost every other wrestler on their team.
It’s developing reflexes, toughness, and understanding of balance and leverage.

Ideally. You go against people that are better than you, to get better.
Girls have PLENTY of fire, naturally. Sometimes. It helps to have a superior (in some cases male) adversary, to unlock it if they don’t have brothers…

These are just my opinions, of course. I am not necessarily trying to talk anyone into agreeing with me. Just trying to be informative.

@MrGrimm888 “I’m going to go a bit out on a limb, and opine that the vast majority of females involved in wrestling (which essentially guarantees they WILL likely wrestle boys,) are better for the experience.”

You very well may be right. I don’t have the knowledge to evaluate the truth of that statement, but more worryingly, I don’t think you do either. When it comes to some of these issues, it’s common for women to just silently accept things or be taught to accept them (boys too for that matter). Hazing was a regular part of sports teams I participated in. We did it with brotherly affection, but in hindsight, it was clearly wrong and there was pressure to not “snitch” on your teammates.

As far as football and wrestling being similar, I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I’ve played football, and have a tiny amount of experience wrestling, as well as some experience watching wrestling. IMO they’re very different in terms of the kinds of contact and the duration of contact.

I’m also sure that wrestling against men has been very positive for some women. I’m just surprised how dismissive the other side is, and I’d definitely feel better hearing from women who have lived it as opposed to men. No offense. I certainly respect your perspective and opinion. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that I’m not sure if you can really know if you’re right.

And to be clear, women v. women wrestling seems perfectly fine, it’s the women v. men wrestling that it gets fuzzier because it’s a unique sport. And I’ll leave it at that.

^Couldn’t a female “molest” another?
Couldn’t a female be made to feel uncomfortable, by another female?

You’re bringing an aspect to it, that I think is extremely rare, and because of programs and coaches being forced into the limelight in recent years, awareness is higher than ever.
People question situations more.
We encourage females to let us know, if they are having problems.
You have all kinds of examples, that remind me if real articles or books, etc.
I even had a high-school gym coach, get eventually caught molesting the girls.
(Something we kids always suspected…)
I have 3 sisters, and lots if other female family and friends, that I know have had rough times.

And again, you’re heart is in the right place.
I HOPE I’m not completely mistaken, about supporting such activities. I’ve always looked out for stuff like that.
Obviously, I could have missed something…

I guess I’m curious why you have chosen this hill, to die on?

I also think I’m talking more about such sports, overall.

I have not been focusing on the infrequent, but horrific examples our society has given us.

To me. It’s about the kids, regardless of chromosomes.
I think such things are generally safe and well regulated.
If we stop coed wrestling, what else should be on the chopping block?
And. Are we really helping females, by trying to shelter them? I mean, I think they have what it takes, to participate in and even thrive, in such sports.

I think, if we’re primarily focusing on preventing sexual misconduct (or worse,) that issue needs to be addressed in a different manner than holding girls out if things.
There are people who ultimately have the responsibility of keeping such sports safe for different types of people.
If we’re seeing tales, like you’re speaking about, we need to address whom is failing our kids. That can be through law enforcement, if necessary, or by holding the right people accountable IF such things happen.
And WHEN, we find people complicit, or involved in such matters we need to put them in prison, rather than transfer them or get jobs elsewhere.

It’s already REALLY bad, to be involved with sexual misconduct.

Are we going to say the boy ballerina, can’t hold the girl ballerina by her crotch?

@JLeslie I want to apologize. I’m very sensitive at the moment concerning this topic. The Olympics have brought out the bigots and being an ally has been exhausting. Imagine how exhausting it must be for the people who are actually affected by all of these questions about their identity that they have no control over. I know you mean no ill will. I hope you understand my frustration.

@jonsblond I do understand. I didn’t want to upset you, I apologize too,

I don’t even want to look at that other question. I’m ashamed of my behavior. You have no need to apologize.

@jonsblond Forget it. It’s probably scary for you. I’m making an assumption that could be incorrect, but that is how the recent conversations about Israel and Jewish people affect me, it feels unsafe.

It means a lot to me that we cleared the air. Thank you.

This is what wedge issues are designed to do.

Nice and succinct.

The X Men should not be allowed to compete with ANY humans! ;-o

XX=female.
XY=Male.

@https:Brian1946
What possible protection could a sports bra provide?? What do you think a sports bra is?

^A metal sports bra? :-)

@Dutchess_III

This.

^Am I wrong? I thought the a concern was them being groped by guys? How does spandex help with that?

I thought sports bras, were more for support…

Or being hurt. But how would spandex prevent that any more than a speedo would protect a man’s genitals from being hurt?

^It wouldn’t. But, I’m not arguing there’s a need for such protection. Cups, aren’t always mandatory. A lot of guys don’t wear a cup. It’s very cumbersome, and some people feel like they are faster without them.

Genital contact, is incidental in sports.