What is the logic, behind evangelical Christians believing God spared Trump from assassination?

There is nothing logical about religion.

God gave him a whack over the ear because of his bad behaviour.

You’re asking evangelicals to make sense lol.

Logic? LMAO

Religion is an invention to explain events that are irrational. Pentecostalists and their ilk want to assign godly reasons to Trump not getting hit, as a way of saying that Trump should have been hit but some superpower saved him. Quite simply, it lets them accept the irrational.

It’s the same dynamic of the people that give “thoughts and prayers” when kids are massacred in schools. Gives god the responsibility, removing it from people’s responsibility.

God is mysterious and inscrutable. All we can accept is that God intervened just enough to save Trump’s life, perhaps deflecting the bullet by an inch or two so only Trump’s ear was injured.

A more overt divine intervention would be too shocking to many and cause mass hysteria, which is why God keeps these things so subtle and let a couple people die in the attack.

Perhaps God spared Trump’s life and gave him a scare in order to change Trump from within, like a Road to Damascus moment. Trump is now a new man, perhaps with a new found humility, and a realisation that he is merely a fragile and mortal servant of God like everyone else.

If it required logic or evidence or facts, it wouldn’t be called “faith”.

The logic is that God saved his life from a Deep State attempt on his life. His Supreme Court choices among other acts such as with Israel, cause some to believe he is doing Gods work at the risk of his money, freedom, etc.. Making him a martyr to that portion of the Right is not the smartest move.

There is no logic to an atheist in the statement. It would be a meaningless query. If you believed in God, the logic of the statement would be understood. If God has a purpose for Trump, He moved Trump just enough to not get killed. Likely, if he wanted Trump to be the next POTUS, getting shot in the ear would be a powerful message. Even to atheists it is a powerful message. At least it should be. It was a message that the rhetoric had gotten so vicious that someone felt they would be doing a great thing by killing Trump. It is a message that should have opened up everyone’s eyes to how hateful the Dems, the media, and the Deep State have been towards Trump.

But the logic isn’t necessarily logic as much as it is faith. Christians believe that God had a hand in the events and that He is working for our good.

Yep. ^^ Thanks for that explanation @seawulf575

Wulf. So why the ear injury?
Does this symbolize that God wanted to “teach” or “humble” Trump? Not just save him completely?

Unless he was being disingenuous, @Kropotkin seems to have that potential motive in mind. That it was not just a save, but a warning….

@MrGrimm888 You are asking for how God thinks. That is an unknown. We can guess. It might be an ear injury to wake Trump up and bring him some humility…that he is indeed just a man and that God spared him. It might be an ear injury as a symbol of God’s protection. It might be an ear injury as a rallying point for other people that might not have been decided on how to vote. The “why” is not an answer that we can give completely.

^OK.

There is no logic. None! If there was, no one in their right LOGICAL mind would believe in religion.

Well. Until this thread, I have always heard that science, does not disprove religious beliefs. Moreover, many usually suggest that science and religion can coexist. (Not my words.)

Perhaps I should have built the question differently…

Depends on what those beliefs are. A 5000 year old earth, Earth as the center of the universe, people created as they are…. All disproven. Then there is the constant revision of religion to accommodate scientific findings….

I just started watching a documentary on the scientific proof of Noah’s flood. That was fascinating to me. It had to do with the striations of minerals in the Grand Canyon of all places. The premise was that if the striations happened as science showed, it would have been different. There would have been areas that showed erosion over the millenia. Some of the striations were not situated as they would have been if it has been a slow build up over time as science would predict. Also the Grand Canyon itself could not possibly have been made by erosion from the Colorado river. It would have collapsed on itself several times over…something that we just don’t see any evidence of. However if there was a great upheaval in the ocean that flooded out the lands, it would have settled almost exactly as we see it deposited in the Canyon. Also the subsequent out rush of water would have/could have created the canyon as we know it today. It was a fascinating documentary.

The point is that science doesn’t know everything. And some things that are taken as fact in science later are shown to be flawed or wrong. That is how science is. It is a process, not an answer.

Just playing Devils Advocate (high irony) but what religions are logical? The Muslim belief that Mohammed was visited by Archangel Gabriel?
Or the origin of Krishna, demon kings terrorizing mother earth. Fetus’ ransferred from Devakis womb to Rohinis womb.
Perhaps the pillar of light followed by God and JC helped found Mormonism. Golden plates found in a hillside.

If you look for logic in religion, you’re likely to be frustrated, whichever religion you pick apart.
I realize this is likely just another anti-Trump post but ya’ll always ripping on Christianity as if it hasnt been around for 2000 years. It hets tiresome.

@KNOWITALL I even view Atheism as being illogical. It relies on science to explain everything. Science has laws. Laws imply order, something that one of the laws says isn’t the natural tendency in the universe. Law implies something acting on the universe to oppose chaos. So you have a belief that two completely contradictory things are true as the proof that there is no superior being or God.

“documentary on the scientific proof of Noah’s flood” No, you were watching religious propaganda.

@Blackwater_Park Did you see it? No? so you are speaking from a position of ignorance. Or maybe you know more than the numerous PhD’s that were identifying the issues with what science had concluded? Yeah, that must be it. You know more than anyone.

@seawulf575 Who were the PhDs and can you link to their peer-reviewed research papers somehow refuting the very well-established geology view that the Grand Canyon was formed through millions of years of erosion?

Thanks in advance.

@seawulf575 I was a geology major before switching to Engineering my junior year. I don’t have to watch it to know it’s complete bullshit.

@Blackwater_Park Sooo….you spent 2 years taking garbage classes and what…1? 2? classes on geology before switching majors? Oh! I can see how you know more than PhD geologists. I stand corrected. You are the premier expert on all things geology.

@Kropotkin Oh I don’t know. I probably can. Can you name the PhDs that set that well established view and their peer reviewed papers? In the end it really doesn’t matter. Science advances all the time. Things change all the time. Hell, I remember at the beginning of Covid the well established view on masks was that they don’t work…possibly even make things worse. Yet it didn’t take long for people to suddenly claim they worked great. There were even some papers written that sounded amazingly like “We gathered a bunch of anecdotal evidence that they are great!”.

Actually there are “ancient massive flood” stories, in many religions and cultures.
Most agree that there have likely been many events that could be interpreted in the same way.
Especially since most ancient people had no way of understanding the natural workings behind extreme weather events.

There’s a storm the size of our planet, on Jupiter. It’s been raging for a LONG time. Is that God’s side project, or is weather scientifically explainable?

It interests me, that of ALL of the (sorry) ridiculous aspects of the “Ark” story, one would try and give it credibility through a wild (baseless) theory about the Grand Canyon. Which is in the continent of North America.
Not quite a mountain in “Ararat.”

Since there is no real source, I will go by “the Book of Genesis” from the “Old Testament.”

I WILL cross reference with actual history, to further clarify.

(Genesis 8:4) Claims that the Ark “landed” in the mountains of Ararat. Ararat, being Urartu ( an ancient kingdom, that existed between the 9th and 7th century BCE.) I had always heard “Mount Ararat,” but I guess that is a single peak of that chain, that exists today. The mountainous area, is described as having a volcanic history. (Geological activity, often results in “floods.)
To expound on that this region, IS in modern day Turkey and Armenian lands. That’s a distance of 6,977 miles, from the Grand Canyon.

THE largest flood, in geological history, is the Zanclean Megaflood. This is when the Mediterranean Sea, was “refilled,” by the ocean spilling through The Straight of Gibraltar. The Mediterranean Sea, is approximately 2,500 miles. From The Straight of Gibraltar, to the Gulf of Iskrnderun. Which is actually on the southwestern coast of Turkey (real close to where the Ark was alledged to have landed.) Although. That coincidence, is not related to the Ark, as the Zanclean Megaflood occurred around 6 million years ago…
The last time when Earth was full of that much water, it was mostly a “water world,” with little to no visible land, approximately 2.5–4 billion years ago (In The Archean Eon.) Now. To put THAT into perspective, our solar system is estimated to be about 4.6 billion years old.
It’s important to note. The Ark, has never been found (likely never existed.)

I can’t get over, the entire concept of “The Ark.”
Not only is it inexplicably impossible to gather ALL the world’s creatures in pairs of two on a wooden boat, even if they cooperated, it’s genetically impossible for ANY animals to successfully breed from just two. In addition to the impossibility of an animal “starting over” with just a male and female, to re-populate the Earth, we also have DNA evidence (at least from most animals,) and when we look back through the DNA records, there was no bottle neck.

I’m not going to go into the age of Noah, or the impossibility of a single man and his children building what would have to have been a boat many times bigger than anything currently existing.

As far as atheists go, you are incorrect Wulf. We do not put everything on science. We typically believe in proven science. There’s no reason, not to.
But being an atheist, really just means that a person has no belief in a diety or deities.

We fracture significantly, from that commonality.
We are sperated by many differences from some being nihilistic to highly “spiritual.”

Personally. I’m actually very spiritual.

I’m sorry to keep beating the “logic” drum. I can’t understand something, if I can’t understand the logic behind it…

@seawulf575 I’d bet everything I have that the mystery PhD geologists you’re too shy to mention also happen to be Young Earth Creationists, and they almost certainly have no peer-reviewed research in any credible journal (non-creationist ones) that argues the Grand Canyon was formed by a catastrophic flood.

Let me guess, these PhD geology geniuses overturning decades of overwhelming scientific consensus are Andrew Snelling and Steve Austin.

@seawulf575 Your profound ignorance and overconfidence is absolutely astounding. This is freshmen-level Geology 101 stuff.

Ahhh…so now freshmen that take a basic geology course (such as yourself) know more than PhDs? Got it.

@Kropotkin I’d bet everything I have that you didn’t bother to name a single PhD or cite any papers they wrote to support your side. Oops! I win. You didn’t. Carry on.

@seawulf575 You made a positive claim, one that outrageously goes against everything understood about geology. You were asked first for the names and to cite research, and just ignored that completely—because you must know it’s nonsense.

There’s actually an acronym for the way the Grand Canyon formed.
D.U.D.E.
Deposition
Uplift
Down cutting
Erosion

That was on a national park site.

There was a phone number.
It’s public information, so…...
928–638-7888…
The site claims it’s resource is The Legacy “Geology Training Manul” (2006.)

If you look up those principles, I think it seems “logical.”

@seawulf575 please link this “documentary” with PHDs that refute known science about Geology and prove Noah’s flood just by looking at the Grand canyon.

@Blackwater_Park It was on Prime. The name was Is Genesis History. This is not an essay I read so I will not cut and paste for you. Look it up. What I find so funny on things like this is that you all freak out because something goes against what you know. I give citations and then all that happens is that you fine folks try to find something about it to ridicule without actually having to watch the episode or read the citation. You do this so you can calm your mind that you might not be wrong after all.

The claim on the movie is not that it rained for 40 days and nights and the Earth flooded. That would make no sense. But the claim they are making is that what they are seeing in the Grand Canyon doesn’t fit the normal geology 101 ideals. It looks like something happened to rapidly deposit tons and tons of silt (which would indicate a flood) and the rapid lowering of the water level. They speculate some massive upheaval in the ocean that caused it. That is very possible, would be consistent with the idea of the Earth flooding, and would account for the striatum in the Canyon.

Be careful with anything that has young earth creationism as an underpinning. Generally, anything they present above that foundation is complete bullshit.They’re good at presenting it in a convincing way to people.

@seawulf575 Are you a young earth creationist?

@Blackwater_Park I’m a Christian, yes. I’m also a science guy. As predicted, you tried to denounce the findings of people without actually knowing what they found. I’d suggest actually seeing what they have to say to come up with actual, intelligence based reasons to not like them. I was listening to the science of what they had to say. I’m not a geologist, that is true. But I have had to learn quite a bit about geology in my work history. And what they had to say didn’t sound out to lunch.

I have said here and in many other threads that science isn’t a solution, it’s a journey. It is something that is never satisfied because you can always ask “why” and “what if…?”. To claim “Science says X so there can never be another answer” is the height of foolishness in my book.

@seawulf575 Are we meant to graciously entertain any other pseudo-science ideas just because they were put forward by people who happened to have PhDs?

When there’s some incredible claim that runs contrary to all known science, there’s no reason for any of us to waste our time considering it.

It also doesn’t matter how many times you fallaciously appeal to the authority of the scientists when they’re Young Earth creationists in a Young Earth creationist production with an obvious bias, producing essentially religious propaganda.

@seawulf575 I watched about half of the video on Prime you linked. I could not take much more than that. It’s 100% young earth creationist propaganda. There was no science in that whatsoever.

@Kropotkin Am I supposed to stop believing because a bunch of close minded people don’t believe like I do? Yes, you are supposed to be gracious. I’m not telling you to believe. I’m telling you I found an interesting theory that seems to make sense. PhD’s came in because our resident expert who had a couple classes in geology was telling me how stupid the theory is without actually knowing what the theory really is nor what the science behind it would be.

@Blackwater_Park And that is perfectly fine. I applaud you for giving it a shot. I disagree about the science, but I’m allowed to disagree as well.

I know why you like to argue in the face of overwhelming evidence now. Why you cherry-pick evidence as willy-nilly as can be. This is exactly what young earth creationists do and train their followers to do. Disagree all you want, you’re wrong about it and to be bluntly honest, it’s not really ok. Nothing personal and nothing against being Christian, I’m agnostic myself, not an atheist. This young earth thing is a lot like the flat earth thing, just older and established. I’m not even sure the Ken Ham’s and their ilk really believe their own bullshit. Pseudo-science is not ok but there is money in it for sure. This is why we have things like um…chiropractors.

@seawulf575 This book seems to be written just for you. I’m tempted to read it myself.

I can hear Spencer Tracy’s ghost wondering, “Who will inherit the Wind?” ;-o

There ARE details about the Grand Canyon, that are basically accepted hypotheses.
The site was very clear about the science of it, and the nature of science (that it is constantly under scrutiny, and subject to change.)

Back to the subject; I was perhaps a little hasty, in my asking of this question.
In retrospect, the question sits as a sort of flame bait, with a clear linear track to a debate about religion itself…

I apologize, to ALL.
I will speak with the Mods.

Peace and love.

Here is the “Is Genesis History” Wikipedia article. I haven’t yet read it so I can’t comment. I found it when googling Dr. Del Tacket, who is in the documentary. I haven’t seen the documentary so I can’t comment on that, either.

@MrGrimm888 this is in Social so the mods would probably let non related comments stay.

I just googled Dr. Del Tackett and he has a Doctor of Management degree from Colorado Technical Universitiy, a Master of Science degree from Auburn U and a Bachelor of Science from Kansas State U.

@Blackwater_Park Again, you are just showing ignorance. And you were doing so good! You are the geology genius. Let me ask: if there were a massive eruption in the ocean, the size that exists in the lore of just about every ancient civilization, would it/could it have spewed silt across large quantities of land, flooding them out? Hell, it could have been a massive meteor hitting the ocean. Go ahead, answer that one. Or dodge it which I believe you will do.

@seawulf575 I’m not going to bother with you. You clearly know better than established, vetted and well regarded science. I bow to your wisdom that you have mastered watching a young earth creationist film on Amazon prime. You keep throwing that ignorance term around, you need to sit down, take a couple of deep breaths and accept it is you who does not understand. At. All. And just so you know, there is no evidence in the geologic record of a biblical flood. None. It’s a fairy tale, a story not to be taken literally. We do see localized flooding events but nothing like great flood story. It simply, did not happen.

The easiest way to spot quackery in science or anything else is this: They always refute huge things like the very foundations of physics or long-established fundamentals of things like Geology in this case. If it was some small detail or bit of information that casts doubt on a few things, that’s great, it’s exciting and something to look into. It’s never that though. It always has to turn the whole establishment upside down. If the tens of thousands of people who study this for real, the mountains of peer-reviewed research and just basic facts staring you in the face won’t convince you, what will? You would rather believe a handful of unqualified people that wish to push this ridiculous religious cult narrative. Why do you feel you have to believe them? Do you not see just how insane that is? Would you drink the Kool-Aid if they asked you to? And just so you know, I worked eleven years in Geotechnics, specifically the instrumentation that monitors land movement, erosion, and stability of earthen structures. That’s the convergence of Geology and Engineering. I was only about six or seven classes away from a geology degree myself. It was more than a “couple of classes.” like you say. The actual PHDs and professional geologists I did work with and still know personally, they don’t believe in this young earth creationism bullshit either. But hey, you watched a cool video.

The easiest way to spot a closed mind is to say established science is all there can be.

And as predicted, you dodged my challenge. Entirely. It was an easy one too, for a geology genius.

There is no challenge to dodge. What you are proposing is not in the geologic record. You have to show me some real evidence all this established science is wrong. Anything. I’ll skip to the end here.. you can’t. You can cherry pick, propose whacko solutions, deflect, move goal posts, ignore facts because that is just what you people do ( young earth creationists) I truly feel sorry for you.

Since this is a Grand Canyon thread now, I thought I’d share some interesting things.

If you look up mythological origins if the Grand Canyon, there are tales, in MANY cultures in North, and some from South America, regarding it’s creation.
Everything from lighting fights, to Paul Banyan’s axe dragging, account for the Canyon, depending on I guess who you talk to…

It IS my belief, that Christian stories, are no different.

Real locations, and occasionally events, mixed with fantastic theories on what could have possibly happened, without the tools to actually know.
And, as such stories go, there is typically a “moral,” to the story.

If I’m not mistaken, the Ark myth, is a warning of sorts, that God will destroy us, if we don’t go by “the rules.”
It’s interesting, to me, the differences between “Old Testament God,” and the American model of the deity currently.
They are VERY different deities.
Am I wrong about the moral to the Ark story? Does anyone have any other take aways?