Should left-wingers be more cautious, when fully supporting Harris?

Well, the left would need some convincing to vote for a Harris ticket even before her complicity in genocide. But simply reversing course and coming out immediately against the genocide her administration is funding and facilitating would go a long way in securing votes on the left. I would vote for Harris if this were the case. It’s worth the compromise.

But so far, we’ve seen meaningless drivel about supporting a “ceasefire”, which they’ve redefined to mean temporary pause for hostage exchange. And there has been no indication that anything will change. None. Her foreign policy advisor, Gordon, has explicitly assured the public that nothing would change. And her administration just sent another $20 billion in weapons to Israel.

And since genocide is a red line for many of us (it should be for everyone), she needs to be anti-genocide. Now. Not tomorrow. Not when she is elected. She needs to use her voice and platform to reject the administration’s complicity and demand an immediate arms embargo. This would be something concrete that would give people a reason to vote for her. Could she reverse again once elected? Sure. But now is the time to put pressure on her.

But rather than pressuring their candidate, most Harris fans are putting pressure on people who are anti-genocide by vote-shaming and treating the annihilation of a people as a campaign nuisance, rather than something that should be a dealbreaker. They are flipping the script of their privilege and weaponizing the term “privilege” to refer to those who can’t sign off on starving, terrorizing, and carpet-bomb children.

Am I telling people who support Harris’ policy positions to not vote for her? Absolutely not. I understand their position. It’s disappointing, but I fully understand that in their mind, harm reduction is worth immeasurable suffering of others across the world at our hands. But it would seem that strategically, it would make some sense to use some of their energy to put pressure on their party and candidate to immediately oppose genocide (I can’t believe I have to type this out) in hopes of gaining anti-genocide voters.

The time to put pressure on candidates is now. There is little motivation to change policy once elected. We should hold all support for a candidate until they have earned it.

Sure, but only because Harris and the liberal ideology she represents, aren’t left-wing.

No type of socialist or social-democrat has any reason to support Harris at all, and may offer their votes grudgingly at best.

I don’t think anyone illusioned by the supposed left-right spectrum of mainstream US politics, has any reason to be concerned about Harris at all, who looks set to be a very conservative, managerial politician, widely supported by corporate donors, and who will continue with the status quo of maintaining vast inequalities in wealth and the economic privileges of elites and large businesses.

There’s a reason Trump won after Obama, and why Trump is still widely popular despite being a complete fucking idiot and overall degenerate loathsome human.

Here’s how it generally works. Republicans deregulate, cut taxes on corporations and the rich, transfer ever more wealth to the top. People get frustrated and want change and vote in Democrats. The Democrats roll back a fraction of the changes or nothing at all, people get frustrated and want change and vote in Republicans.

And this goes on basically forever, and the same dynamic exists in many other countries with two party systems. The long-term result is a ratcheting effect toward the right-wing where conservatives get ever closer to fascism, and liberals are somewhere to the right of where the conservatives used to be, who pose as the more moral and reasonable choice.

It’s an excellent question. As far as what we KNOW about Harris, we have her record to work off of. She seems like a power-hungry politician willing to hurt people to achieve her professional goals. Her willingness to support the genocide in Gaza lands her a place on the Hitler spectrum (IMO). She appears to have very few policies that she’s committed to and will instead change policy to suit what she’s being paid to do by her donors.

This is both good and bad. Showing a willingness to pivot on policy makes me optimistic that she can be swayed to the correct policy positions on Israel that @hat outlined, namely an arms embargo (I’d like it to go beyond that, frankly). It’s true though that the time to move Kamala on policy is BEFORE the election, not after.

All of that said, I do like Walz. Having him in the room will be invaluable and I appreciate a guy with a bona fide progressive record of achievements is next in line of succession, should something happen. Furthermore, he would be prime potential contender in future primaries.

What do you mean by fully supporting?

In the context of keeping the fascist pig out of office, what other course do you think anyone might consider?

I love it how @hat tells us how to think.

To the question:

Not just Harris – any politician, and level, any state, any party – should be deemed suspect. They are all beholden to their funders.

I just trust Harris to make more right decisions than anyone in the republican party.

This perspective seems pretty grounded to me (as usual).

@Zaku Richardson is great!

The idea that Biden is anti-neoliberal is laughable. He’s the guy from Delaware (the one state where the usury laws are so friendly to banks) that it’s known for the credit card companies all incorporating there. Really bizarre (and inaccurate) framing. Maybe he presented himself that way, but very little of his presidency could be described as being anything but pro-neoliberal establishment.

I care about women, minorities and the LGBTQ community. Trump will only harm these people. What angers me is how the pro Palestine movement says they are for supporting these people but they will waste their vote on a third party or not vote at all. If this movement really cared about women and minorities they would support Harris. We can’t take care of the world if we don’t take care of our OWN people first.

@jonsblond – Let me try to explain some of the confusion you have with the “pro Palestine movement”:

If you aware of what you and I are paying for and you’re still considering people who are anti-genocide as something other than you, than I think it’s important to acknowledge that.

Related to this, if people who are anti-genocide hear that Democratic voters are not their allies, why would you expect them to vote for your party/candidate?

@jonsblond: “We can’t take care of the world if we don’t take care of our OWN people first.”

Here you will find agreement, and this is quite literally what people are calling for. Rather than taking care of people here, the Biden/Harris administration and the vast majority of Dems and Rep law makers have decided that the most important thing to do is to spend your tax money to pay for carpet-bombing a captive civilian population.

We’re not asking for others to be cared for before people in this country. It’s the opposite.

So, I suspect you either don’t care that you specifically (and me, and everyone here) are directly responsible for the immeasurable suffering of the most vulnerable people or you are convinced that your candidate will reverse course and stop the genocide that they’re facilitating and funding. If the latter is the case, make your case. But I suspect you might agree that there are strategies for putting pressure on political entities, and that pledging your support for a candidate/party prior to any commitment to change is foolish. And foolish in the context of an ongoing genocide means being complicit in a genocide, which is supposed to be pretty bad, right?

I was thinking that maybe they could let Biden put his foot down on Israel. It’s crazy hearing about how everyone is trying to talk Iranian backed groups from striking Israel, when the pressure should have been on Netanyahu.
I think/know, Harris (in part) hasn’t been more detailed, because she doesn’t want to lose any current momentum.

Biden could be a “bad guy,” and make it his goal to stop the conflict. If that pisses off some voters, who cares? He’s already gone. And Harris could at least appear not to be the one who should be blamed for any fallout.

I 100% agree that I want her to pick some sides, and potential policies BEFORE she is potentially elected.
That’s why I started this thread.

I’m not impressed by someone who can smile, and tell me about problems I’m already aware of.

It’s more than just a genocide, or human rights issue. It’s a matter of global stability, and national security.

It’s difficult, if not impossible, to find a candidate that is 100% perfect, 100% on the side of everything that a voter wants in their candidate.

After Biden’s awful debate performance, which I realize many people (here and elsewhere) defended as “just a bad night,” I was not happy with him and ready to vote for Mickey Mouse if he stayed in the race. I voted for Biden last time, but was not willing to do so again because I feel he is too old. I wasn’t a Harris fan, and she’s not 100% perfect, and I still may not vote for her, but my choice then would be Mickey Mouse, because I would never vote for Trump and I would not vote for Kennedy.

The Mideast conflict is a difficult one for any candidate to deal with. I don’t feel personally responsible, even if some say by voting for Biden we are personally responsible. When we vote for someone, we vote for who we think is our best representative but they may not represent us 100% on each and every one of our beliefs. If we do find a candidate that is 100% into everything we’re into, it would be miraculous.

I voted for Biden but in my opinion he totally fucked up the whole southern border thing, with crime in NYC way up, crimes often committed by migrants, who knows who’s here now because people are just streaming in and their court dates are ten years into the future.

Just my opinion. Nobody has to agree.

Be more cautious? No.

I would vote for an actual steaming hot pile of shit than having a human piece of shit like Trump back in the WH.

The choice here is yeah, that simple. For me.

Where I want to see any sort of cautiousness is by the Harris campaign. Don’t do any stupid
political moves that might give the piece of shit human any opening to gain advantage.

Democrats are just more well adjusted Republicans.
Kamala is tough on crime, which Republicans like, because it means being tougher on African Americans.

Your average republican will probably end up liking Kamala.

Should they be more cautious? Of course. They should be asking logical questions. She has posted no policies on her web page. What she says at rallies changes with the audience, and not just a little. Complete flip-flops. She has plagiarized Trump’s “No Tax on Tips” policy hoping everyone forgets that she was the deciding vote in passing the bill that required taxes to be reported and taxed. She won’t talk to the press at all. Her speeches are written by someone else and she is reading them verbatim. She keeps talking about what she will do when she is elected but hopes no one actually asks her why she hasn’t done those things now or why she supported the exact opposite of those things for the past 10 years.

Here’s a thought for Harris adherents: In the 2020 race, the Dems put Biden in as the candidate, despite the polls. They forced all other candidates out. Then they kept him in the basement, likely because it was pretty obvious his cognition was failing. Then, 3.5 years into his presidency the cat is out of the bag. So what do they do? Put in Harris as the candidate. A person who got not a single vote. When she was running in 2020 she got next to no support from Democrats and was the first to drop out of the race. Now that she is the candidate, they are keeping her from doing any interviews or press conferences…anything that would be unscripted. They are running the same campaign of Hate Trump as the only focus they have, just like in the 2020 campaign. So yeah, if you think the country is doing great under Biden/Harris then you should blindly follow her. If you think things pretty well suck, like most Americans feel, then you should be questioning and extremely cautious about her.

@hat I care about my transgender son. That’s all I can do at this moment. I don’t need a lecture. My family gets enough grief as it is.

@hat You can call me Genocide Groomer Jonsblond.

Sorry for the third response but this is important to me. I live in a swing state. I can’t afford a protest vote like I could when I lived in Illinois. My priority is my family. Any protest vote or non vote would be a vote against the well being of my own blood.

@jca2 I agree, about the “perfect” candidate. I doubt you’ll get much resistance from that standpoint.

@jonsblond I get it. I know that a lot of people get forced into prioritizing one or just a few issues, and have to ignore other things that would otherwise change their vote.
I know a lot of conservatives vote almost solely to restrict abortion. Well, maybe not a majority. But, that’s a big issue for them.

There are several (I’m not going to say the right phrase here probably,) at high risk/minority groups who could be voting essentially to survive until the next vote. Or to slow momentum that has built against them recently.

The middle east, is a HUGE deal. But. I wonder if many Americans don’t simply see the region as hopelessly entrenched in conflict and war, and therefore it may take a back seat to other/more domestic issues.

I have yet to hear anything from Harris, on Israel, or the ME, as far as policy or near-future strategy.

Am I wrong, or has Trump really only said that he would defund Israel, or “tell them to stop.?”

@jonsblond – You don’t get to play victim. We’ve heard it before. Your son, my daughter, my family all deserve to be free. But not on the backs of dead children. If you truly cared about human rights – and not just your son – you would demand that Harris stop committing genocide so that moral people could vote for her. And be aware that the people being expelled and beaten for calling for divestment were disproportionately the same people calling for trans rights. My daughter, who is dating a trans man, was at serious risk at her college for organizing with gay and trans students to attempt to stop their tuition money going to genocide. Liberation movements aren’t and can’t be isolated.

And to be clear – go vote for Harris. You can ignore the lecture of vulnerable groups. You can ignore the cries of people telling you that they don’t want you to kill their family. I said that I understand it. But the question as presented was whether leftists should support Harris. Leftists weren’t going to support her to begin with. But considering she is literally facilitating a genocide, the burden is on Democrats to explain why the left should. Or, it’s on them to join anti-genocide efforts to pressure Harris, rather than pressuring the left to vote for Harris.

@jonsblond: “My priority is my family.”

To be clear, again – I completely understand. But is it possible that fighting for your family and demanding that we stop murdering people are not incompatible? If you truly want to fight for trans rights and stop committing genocide, there shouldn’t be a conflict. Demand this from your candidate. The allies you’re looking for are here, but being excluded.

@Kropotkin. …Harris and the liberal ideology she represents, aren’t left-wing.

Agree 100%. Over the past 60 or so years I’ve witnessed the political “center” move to the right; so much so that if a conservative such as William F. Buckley or Barry Goldwater were to appear on the scene today they might be considered centrist or possibly left of center!

@Strauss You’ll appreciate this, I think as an old folkie. Last night Shawn Fain used the sentence “Which Side are You On?” in his speech and I was very pleased.

@hat Victim? Fuck off. You are willing to sacrifice millions of Americans for your protest vote.

Quick question. All that support you gave me in the past when my family was struggling was fake? You thought I played victim? You are sick.

I’m unfollowing. Any response from you will go on deaf ears.

^ It’s too bad you think that the liberation, safety, and protection of people you care about can only be achieved by occupying, torturing, starving, raping, and annihilating another people.

If you were to demand that your party/candidate stop murdering children, what do you think would happen?

You’re not following, so it I guess we’ll have to wonder. Take care.

^^Hamas must be proud of you. You know, the killers who swore to annihilate Israel and hide behind kids?

They don’t have the power yet to do genocide on Israelis so in the meantime, they drag those poor kids along in their suicidal jihad…while basking in the glory of your support.

@hat ” It’s too bad you think that the liberation, safety, and protection of people you care about can only be achieved by occupying, torturing, starving, raping, and annihilating another people.” That pretty much describes Hamas. You act like Israel is this big bad ogre. They exited the Gaza Strip. They let the people in there elect their own leaders. They opted to elect Hamas, a known terrorist organization. Hamas was so focused on destroying Israel (it is in their charter as an Allah assigned duty), that they let their people destroy the drinking water, let them go hungry, all so they could attack Israel for the crime of existing. You rant on and on about how Israel is pushing genocide, yet you ignore that genocide of Israel is the sworn goal of Hamas. Hamas attacked Israel on 10/7, not in retaliation for anything, but just because they want to destroy Israel. Hamas killed civilians…men, women, and children. They took more hostage and still haven’t released them or even given ransom demands. They just want to use them as shields…just like they do the Palestinian people. They hide behind them to protect themselves from bullets and bombs. They are cowards. And you are a mouthpiece for them. That makes you a coward as well.

Amazingly, I am 100% in agreement with @seawulf575 .

No sympathy for Hamas (or @hat).

Ignoring the answers above, I’ll give my own to the Q. I want to know where Harris stands on the issues. I’ve heard her speak about women’s rights regarding their health and bodies, I don’t know exactly what she supports on that front. If it’s a similar law to what Roe defined or something else.

I would like to know her plans and thoughts on Ukraine, Israel, education in the US, manufacturing in the US, trade, immigration, healthcare, just to name a few. I’ll do a little research and if she does a debate I’ll watch the full debate.

What I know is the Republicans will allow states to completely remove a woman’s right to terminate her pregnancy and threaten doctors with criminal conviction.

I know that many Republicans in our government (definitely NOT all, probably not the majority yet) want to put religion in all aspects of our government.

Republicans want to take tax money from public schools and move it to private schools.

Republicans want to use tax money for religious programs.

Republicans want to completely privatize healthcare and think the free market will work in healthcare.

These are just a few things why I can’t vote for Republicans, and especially not Trump who caters to the extremists in the party.

So, I figure my vote for president is to keep the country going in the general direction I prefer. I disagree with plenty of things Democrats do, but again, I gotta vote for a general direction.

Hamas, is NOT Gaza.

I don’t think @hat is right about everything, but the voiceless need a voice. Israel has over done it. BIG time.
If the war ended today, there should be people like Netanyahu being held accountable for war crimes. If there are any Hamas leaders left, same with them.

@MrGrimm888 No, Hamas is not Gaza. Gaza is a place, Hamas is the group the people living in that place elected to represent and lead them. They were known terrorists when they were elected and their charter specifically stated it was their duty to wipe Israel off the map. At some point that weak excuse of “Hamas is not the Palestinian people” falls flat.

Here’s the thought when you say Israel has over done it big time. Did they do something that cause the 10/7 attack by Hamas? No. Has Hamas given back the hostages? No. Does Hamas even want to talk about a cease-fire? No. They reject any proposals out of hand, without even hearing what the proposals are. So they have shown no remorse for their terrorist actions, they have done nothing to stop that violence, so what does Israel do? Let bygones be bygones? Say “Just keep the hostages.”? And if they do that, would Hamas be more likely or less likely to attack them blindly again? Hamas would see any easing by Israel as weakness and they would be emboldened.

^I’m not going over that scenario with you, AGAIN…

^^Those who keep attacking Israel for its war strategy which tragically leads to kids’ death could at least attack Hamas as well for hiding behind those kids.

But no, here in Fluther I keep reading Israel genocide this genocide that….what about Hamas’ plans to annihilate Israel?

And those Palestinians whose kids were killed, how many of those are pro-Hamas and how many aren’t? Those who are pro-Hamas, should they scream bloody murder when they are fully aware and support Hamas?

@seawulf575 “They were known terrorists when they were elected and their charter specifically stated it was their duty to wipe Israel off the map.”

And the Likud’s charter read: “The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”

” Did they do something that cause the 10/7 attack by Hamas?”

Absolutely. The most immediate action was when Netanyahu essentially declared Israel’s intention to annihilate Gaza by holding up a map of Israel that included Gaza as part of Israel to the UN a couple weeks prior. but more broadly it’s the illegal occupation of Gaza, the Nakba and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people to make way for a setler colonial project. If you want specific acts of violence that preceded 10/7, The obvious event was the Great March of Return where Israel killed over 200 Palestinian protestors and wounded over 13,000. Many intentionally crippled for life (the Israeli snipers joked about shooting out kneecaps of unarmed protestors). They even killed Palestinian in wheelchairs, and medics rendering aid.

But if you want examples closer to 10/7, these are just from 2023, before October:

- On February 26, 2023 There was the Huwara pomgrom where illegal Israeli settlers rampaged through Huwara, Zatara and Burin while the IDF stood by and watched. (video)

- In May of 2023 After “administratively detaining” Khader Adnan (which Palestinian would consider hostage taking—being held indefinitely without trial) and him undergoing a hunger strike, the judge refused the appeal for him to be transferred to a hospital and stating that he had not been presented with any medical opinion that Mr. Adnan’s life was in immediate danger. He died of starvation. and kicked off the clashes that resulted in Operation Shield and Arrow where 34 Palestinians were killed, Including women and children.

- The Knesset granted the authority to expand settlements to “wipe them off the map” Smotrich, making it much easier to expand illegal settlements. They have since been doing just that in gross violation of international law.

- On June 22, 2023 Israeli settlers rampage in West Bank terrorizing Palestinians in the West Bank. Again, the IDF doesn’t intervene to stop the violence.

By August 2023 nearly 200 Palestinians had been killed in the West Bank and Israel was again invading Palestinian towns while settlers rampaged through terrorizing Palestinians without IDF intervention.

So YES, Israel has done PLENTY to cause the 10/7 attack. and let me remind you that Israel’s occupation is ILLEGAL under international law, and that armed resistance against the occupying military forces are explicitly permitted under the Geneva convention.

Give The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Israeli historian and scholar, Ilan Pappe.

@mazingerz88 ”^^Those who keep attacking Israel for its war strategy which tragically leads to kids’ death could at least attack Hamas as well for hiding behind those kids.”

Killing the kids is the literal fucking point. That’s why they targeted the Hamas fighters when they were sleeping with their families. The Israelis called it Where’s Daddy?.

Imagine the outrage if instead of fighting Russian’s on the front liens in Ukraine, the Ukrainians waited for the Russians to return home on leave and then blew up the apartment complex of the soldier and their families in Russia with a missile. That’s the level of depravity of the IDF.I can assure you that the US would NOT be supplying Ukraine weapons as they are with Israel in such a case.

But speaking of using human shields, Israeli soldiers are taking Palestinian prisoners (and remember they just round up male Palestinians and hold them without charge en masse), dressing them up as IDF and then forcing them to potentially trigger booby traps or open risky doorways. Literally using the Palestinian civilians as human shields.

@mazingerz88 “But no, here in Fluther I keep reading Israel genocide this genocide that…”

You keep hearing this because it’s a fucking genocide that you and I are supporting. It’s the moral equivalent of suppling Hitler with Zyklon-B paid for with our tax dollars.

@mazingerz88 “what about Hamas’ plans to annihilate Israel?”

If Hamas had the ability to do so and they were committing genocide on Israel, we’d all be loudly calling for the US to intervene to protect Israeli life.Hamas has no means to do so. Very few Israelis have died at the hands of Hamas relative to what Israel has done to the Palestinian people whose land the territory belongs. Israel is engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign in gross violation of international law.

@mazingerz88 “And those Palestinians whose kids were killed, how many of those are pro-Hamas and how many aren’t? Those who are pro-Hamas, should they scream bloody murder when they are fully aware and support Hamas?”

1. It doesn’t fucking matter who a population supports. It’s a crime to kill civilians in war, especially intentionally. I can show you example after example of Israeli snipers assassinating unarmed men with their hands in the air (just like those Israeli hostages). Any man between certain ages in the territory are considered terrorists.

Under international law people are either combatants or non-combatants. You’re not allowed to kill non-combatants. Full Stop.

2. Do you think masacring people’s families creates more Hamas soldiers or less? I can assure you that most people I know would gladly give their lives to try to kill as many [insert other side here] if their occupiers massacred their families and destroyed any hope for a future. This campaign of genocide has done more to recruit terrorsts, possibly ever.

@gorillapaws “And the Likud’s charter read: “The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.” Except Israel doesn’t control those areas. They gave them up to the Arabs to control. They fall under the Palestinian Authority and Israel actually uprooted tens of thousands of Israelis to get them out of there. That was part of a peace effort back in the early 2000’s. But let’s go back even further. When Israel first declared statehood, Gaza was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank was controlled by Jordan. But as soon as Israel declared statehood, 5 Arab nations declared war on them. Israel kicked their ass and took control of Gaza and the West Bank. That’s how they got control in the first place: defending themselves from maniacal attacks by Arabs.

The Great March of Return was in 2018. And many that were shot were shot for attacking the fence into Israel or flying things over it.

The map Netanyahu held up was tiny. It showed the area as it would look almost in space. If you are saying that triggered Hamas, you are blowing smoke up my skirt.

Huwara Rampage: Yep, Israeli settlers attacked a Palestinian settlement, burned it and killed some Palestinians. And the IDF did nothing to stop it. Now, care to be completely honest and ask why they did that? It wasn’t a random act. It was in retaliation for a Palestinian shooting and killing two unarmed Jews. And, since this was in the West Bank, there are two other things to consider here. The First is that it was the West Bank and not Gaza. Hamas does not control the West Bank and the Palestinian Authority doesn’t like Hamas. The Second thing to consider is that it is the West Bank. It is under control of the Palestinian Authority. If the IDF went in there to stop the activities, the PA would say they were attacking. They were likely told to take no action for fear of setting off an international incident.

Khader Adnan: Was playing stupid games. He spent his life trying to destroy Israel. He was part of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) whose charter actually calls for the complete destruction of Israel and not accepting any political or peaceful solutions to the Palestinian-Israeli situation. He had been arrested by Israel a number of times because he was always causing trouble. He discovered years before that if he went onto a hunger strike, he could garner international sympathy and could get out of jail. Unfortunately for him, Israel stopped playing that game. And just a point: he did have the option of eating…he chose not to. Technically he committed suicide. Not sure how many virgins that gets him in the afterlife. But the way you state things, you completely ignore all that. Just like you ignore the fact that the PIJ launched 105 rockets into Israel when Adnan died. THAT is what set off Operation Shield and Arrow.

The housing project on the West Bank isn’t Hamas either. AND it specifically didn’t involve Judea and Samaria. Your own article points that out.

Your August 2023 citation is the same as your Huwara issue. Repetition doesn’t change the facts.

All in all, what you have established is a real pattern. The pattern is this: Palestinians and/or Arab groups establish goals of wiping Israel off the map and killing Jews everywhere. They attack Jews and/or Israel and Israel responds. You then view that response as the reason to justify further atrocities by the Palestinians/Arab groups.

Here’s a thought: be honest. You have multiple known terrorist groups that have charters that have Allah telling them to kill all Jews and get rid of Israel. You are supporting these people and will do back-flips to avoid actually mentioning these things. They get their asses handed to them by Israel only after they attack Israel but you conveniently avoid mentioning that too. Probably 99+% of all the violence in that area is started by Arab groups attacking Israel. Your apparent complaint is that Israel doesn’t just roll over and take it when they are attacked. If Palestinians would stop attacking them, Israel would stop killing them.

@seawulf575 the problem with saying “be honest” to someone like @hat is that it goes by deaf ears.

The pro-death palestinians have lied to themselves for 80 years, telling lies about the supposed Nakba and all sorts of sympathy-raising stories that are self-serving and false.

The Palestinians for decades have had no sense of responsibility. It is always someone else’s fault – Israel, the US, the UN, you name it. The Palestinians have historically been unwilling to see that they play an role but victim.

Which leads me to my final point. Playing the palestinian victim may look good on the news, but playing the victim card too often is like crying wolf once too many times. You have no credibility.

@elbanditoroso Amen. I have said a number of times that Palestine takes no responsibility for any of their actions and their supporters are quick to ignore their role in any problems in the area. I think Victim Card is an apt term for it.

If you truly oppose genocide, there’s no one to vote for in this election. Both Harris and Trump support unconditional military aid to Israel. If you’re a single-issue voter and that is your issue, then supporting Harris over Trump means little.

And if you truly oppose a national abortion ban and support gay marriage and transgender rights, there’s no way not to vote while continuing to push for an end to the Gaza genocide.

So now that you are living out of the country, @Demosthenes, the domestic issues don’t matter anymore?

What’s funny, @janbb is all the protesters who are pro-Hamas, who are advocating for Hamas like it’s some type of human rights organization, meanwhile, if it were up to Hamas, women would not be allowed to attend school, would be covered head to toe in the hijab, gays would be stoned to death, etc.

^I’ve met a couple Palestinian girls, who wore a white head dressing. It seemed to be like a cultural thing, for sure.
Nothing like the black, head to toe covering of a women in more strictly Islamic countries.

I have not seen any pictures or videos of women dressing like that, in Gaza. (I’m not saying it’s never happened.)

One girl, had moved to Chicago, from Gaza. I asked her, a lot about Gaza. This was about 3 years ago.
She seemed OK with it, but did paint a picture of them being pretty oppressed. I asked her, to describe her favorite place in Gaza. She told me about a sort of refugee camp, where all her family members lived. The description was sad. It sounded like a tough place to try to live.
She never once, talked about Israel.

The Muslim faith, has MANY splinters of groups, all living according to their interpretation of Islam. I am tempted to opine that the Gazans, were less extreme than many other groups.
I know that both Israel and Gaza, teaxh their children to hate each other.
I know that the way things were, with Israel, were unsustainable. Or that it was asking a LOT, to hope that the Gazans never grew tired enough of their oppressors to rebel.

@jca2 What the pro-genocide crowd doesn’t understand is that advocating for an oppressed people and opposing the bombing deaths of children and other civilians has nothing to do with what I personally think of their religious beliefs or potential opinions on my lifestyle. The United States isn’t funding Hamas. The United States is funding Israel. What Israel is doing is politically relevant.

^^Supporting Israel is not pro-genocide if the US policy is to push for a two state solution. You naive pro-Hamas war moralists, do not understand how it is living for decades with a neighbor who wants you and all of your ilk annihilated. A genocide!

The US is not funding Hamas, you and other terrorist defenders are…in your own way.

^Uh. All that two state/one state solution stuff, is dead.

Regardless of whom we blame, or how we vote, the Gazans will not be able to recover to a point where they could be equals.

Their “Palestine” was tiny, and IDF forces (using America’s weaponry,) not only leveled the Gaza Strip, they blew up all types of underground infrastructure, flooded many underground places, and honestly just watching the Gazans scurrying around in all that dust and smoke reminds me that likely most survivors will have similar health issues as those who were at ground zero on 9/11.
Gaza, was never a wealthy place. The strip has been turned to rubble.
Netanyahu, wants to be able to essentially occupy the strip, after the conflict.
As that is not remotely realistic, it will fall on the international community to rebuild Gaza.
I actually think that the Muslim nations in the region, will be willing to try to help rebuild.
The problem, of course, will be keeping it from returning to a “terrorist,” or “rogue” state.

IF there were Gazans, who didn’t hate Israel, they all do now.
The actions of Israel, will not be forgotten soon.
This won’t be going away, anytime soon.