Another school shooting by a minor. What do you think should happen to the gun owners?

I think each case would have to be decided on their own set of circumstances.
Let’s say a teenager somehow knows that their neighbor has a gun under his bed. Neighbor has no children or anyone else they need to lock the gun up from.
Teen breaks into the home and steals the gun and kills people.
I don’t think the neighbor should be held responsible.
I think we need to wait to hear the circumstances in this case.

@chyna I agree but I think in most cases its from home or a friends home where their friend shared the info. Now in days you even have parents buying their kids a gun because they can’t deny them anything they want. What you are talking about is breaking and entering. If you are the only one home who should be able to get your hands on your gun then you shouldn’t be in trouble for a theft. Say someone breaks into your car and steals it and gets into an accident. If your car was locked up than it was secure. If your home was locked up and only you were home then that is secured. However, if you allow people to roam your home without supervision and the gun was not on your person or in a safe, then that is unsecured.

^ Very true.

Here in Canada we have to safe storage of our firearms, if a thug breaks into our house and finds an unlocked gun and steals it I can be charged with insecure storage.

Nothing unless they broke any law.

Repeal the Second Amendment. It is, after all, just an amendment.

The owner of the weapon should be charged with whatever the perpetrator gets charged. If a teen breaks into your house and steals a gun, you should her not left it unsecured.

Too many unknowns at this point.

I hate homeschooling but if I had kids and lived in one of the gun crazy states, I might have considered it now.

Past time for this to end.

I can’t find anything that says they know how he got the gun. I can’t even find what kind of gun it was. Kinda hard to answer the question unless we have all the facts.

@zenvelo If they broke into your home that means your home was secured. I think it’s reasonable not to expect someone to break into your home. Though I still secure my guns extra when no one is home because I don’t want to face a gun to my face when I get home. But I also have cameras. If your gun is stolen and you report it stolen by a thief, that is another matter. Just the same, if someone steals your car keys when they broke into your home and get into an accident or kill someone, it isn’t your fault. The keys were secured behind locked doors and windows. Not super secured but no one should violate your home and you shouldn’t be penalized for that. Not everyone is going to have a heavy safe either that can’t be lifted out of the house.

@seawulf575 It’s a general question. Does not need to apply to this one person. I’m asking about in general. Chances that this kid didn’t get it from home or from someone he knew is slim. True he could’ve purchased it illegally. That is always possible, but in most cases it came from home or some relatives or friends home when they are this young.

Parents go to jail, if it turns out they knew about the kid and had guns in the home.

@zenvelo so if a thief steals my truck and runs over and kills a few people I should be charged as well?
and please don’t go on well a truck was never designed to kill people, so it’s not the same, no but it does a great job at it in the wrong hands.

Owner of the gun gets Murder charges

We had a question almost identical to this not long ago – like within the past month, and it got similar answers then.

@Tropical_Willie why should the gun owner face a murder charge ?
Look at my answer above yours should you face a murder charge if someone steals your vehicle and kills someone with it?
I totally believe in secure storage of firearms.
So don’t think I am trying to to get out of anything ,but when one of these horrific crimes happen everyone blames the gun,or the gun owner, other things are to blame as well what drives a 14year old to kill and throw his life away as well?

Responsible gun owners secure their firearms. This is the norm. It is very rare for people to keep firearms unlocked and unsecured. In this case, the specific details are needed.

@Blackwater_Park And yet, kids keep getting killed in schools so there has to be some solution that stops it beyond just saying the same old platitudes.

What would you suggest?

Surely this child got the gun illegally by immigrants. ~ (sarcasm)

@Blackwater_Park If it was very rare for responsible gun owners to keep their guns unsecured we wouldn’t have a problem with children killing other children in school. These children are getting these guns from their parents or by lax laws. End of story.

@jonsblond got daddy’s ar with extra clips!

I think the concept of “secured” needs to be addressed. Why are all firearms not required to have biometric locks? An unsecured firearm under a neighbor’s bed in a regular locked house is not secure. An unsecured firearm in a locked car is not secure. A truly ”responsible” gun owner would secure the firearm itself.

Biometric locks have been around for a couple of decades, becoming more and more sophisticated and effective all the time.

If the firearm used in the commission of a crime has not been properly secured, then the owner should share responsibility, unless the circumstances of the theft of said firearm are very specifically shown not to be any kind of anticipated.

@SQUEEKY2 “Here in Canada we have to safe storage of our firearms, if a thug breaks into our house and finds an unlocked gun and steals it I can be charged with insecure storage.”

This is needed here in the states. The vast majority of gun owners own safes and keep their firearms in them. It’s rare you don’t see this but it does happen. I want to know the details of how this kid got his hands on one.

Why did the father need an AR-15 at home? Is that considered a hunting rifle?

^^ Perhaps all guns should be registered and licensed and the police or an agency should conduct home inspections to ensure that they are securely stowed. Just as we conduct inspections on cars. Our children shouldn’t have to be afraid to go to school. And yes, assault weapons should be banned.

@elbanditoroso AR-15 rifles are like the swiss army knife of firearms. It can be used for any number of things, hunting being one of them. Just having one does not tell you what it was being used for. It’s not used for hunting that much because the caliber is considered too small (.223 or .22lr) to be effective in taking large game like deer. They’re used for pesting and medium game like feral hogs a lot though.

@Blackwater_Park the killer’s father was quoted as saying he had the AR-15 for hunting.

@elbanditoroso It certainly was not secured

I’m thinking that if Walz is VP, as a hunter and a teacher, he could bring some fresh perspective and ideas to the ideas of gun control to stop these killings.

Unfortunately, in the US, the gun control lobby is so, so powerful that any limits on firearms is met with fierce opposition in government, and the gun nuts get rabidly protective about their rights to own guns.

Who was the gun owners, do we know? I would need more details.

I’m ok with handguns not being locked up in someone’s home if the home has no children. I’m not going to tell a woman who has been raped before that she can’t sleep without a gun next to her if that is how she feels safe, even though I think it can possibly make her less safe. Does she need to lock it up every time she leaves the house? I don’t think so, but it might be prudent if she isn’t taking it with her.

Aa far as rifles and semi automatics, they should be locked up when not in use. AR15 style firearms should be ilegal. It’s obvious these shootings are at least partly copycat killing sprees. I feel like a 14 year old who was bent on committing a mass murder might have chosen a less lethal gin if the AR15 wasn’t available or not as popular in these events.

We will absolutely never have all guns registered in the US, but going forward we should require all transactions to be registered.

The reports today was that the kid made threats last school year and questioned him and the parents.

Given the parents had a warning about it, and did nothing to prevent it, they are as complicit as the kid.

They should rot in prison.

If the parents did not take proper measures to lock away the weapons, or like the Crumbleys, actually bought their child a gun while being aware of its mental problems:
– manslaughter charges
– force them to pay all the victim’s funerals
– force them to beg for forgiveness at each of the victims’ funerals.

@zenvelo So the gun was his parents’ firearm? Yeah, that’s just crazy that they had such lethal weapons around with such an unstable kid. I wonder what those parents are like.

No one actually hunts with an AR15 here. It definately should have been locked up after the first complaint. In this case, without further details, the parent(s) should be liable for negligence or failure to secure a deadly weapon imo.

We dont have kids but all but one personal defense weapon is secured.

It’s an interesting question, @Pandora. There are a lot of things to consider in this. The child is a minor.

If someone sold him the gun then yes, they should be held responsible for the murders.

If the gun belonged to the parents and they had it locked away but the child got it somehow, I’m not leaning so much towards them being responsible.

If the gun belonged to the parents but they had it just lying around the parents are at least contributors to the shootings. Not murder in the first degree, but involuntary manslaughter? Sure. They would also be open to civil suits from the families of those injured and/or killed.

If the child stole the gun from somewhere then no, the owner should not be held responsible.

As for all the hoo-haw about the child’s mental state, there is a lot there that is subjective. He is 14. The age of hormones. That doesn’t mean that acting weird is necessarily violent. It doesn’t mean that being angry at whatever is necessarily violent either. Even making threats last year as @zenvelo says happened, that was last year. That doesn’t mean the parents didn’t take action and watch for any further issues. Maybe they had him in counseling. Maybe the “threats” weren’t all that threatening. I remember the 8th grader that had a Gadsen Flag patch on his book bag. He was accused of threatening other just by having that patch. But maybe they were. Suppose he was getting bullied and he threatened the bully? Did anyone deal with the bully if it was something like that? If the bullying stopped, then the anger would have stopped as well, or at least abated. This reasoning is full of “what if?” situations.

Another thing the discussion about him making threats last year reminded me of was Nikolas Cruz at Parkland High School. He was a violent kid for years. He threatened other students and teachers. He had gotten arrested several times for what should have been felony actions but he was never charged because Obama had pushed the idea of not arresting students, but rather recommending treatment and sending them back to school. The school district embraced this idea wholeheartedly. As a result, when he turned 18 he went and bought some guns. He filled out the paperwork as required and the FBI check was done and he was clean…never had a brush with the law per the paperwork. He then took the guns and shot up the school. So it might be interesting to see what this school’s policy for threats and violence are.

@JLeslie They make quick-open handgun safes. They’re very effective. There is no excuse for having an unlocked firearm.

Or biometric locks. Really, is there an argument against biometric locks?

^^ I can’t use a biometric lock. My fingerprints were burned at a job I had after high school. The scar tissue changes according to the temperature of my hands. They aren’t for everyone.

I know there’s an alternate way to enter, but I don’t remember numbers either. Biometric locks are a bad choice for me.

Just sayin’.

@snowberry While I honestly do appreciate that that may be a problem for you, the percentage of people with that issues is so low as to not even register on the meter.

Just sayin’.

Biometric locks, like most technology, are not considered up to standard by most gun owners/enthusiasts.

There is at least one pistol with similar technology, available for public purchase. It certainly has not developed a good or bad reputation, yet.
The technology of course adds some cost, to the weapon. So. There’s that. But price, isn’t typically that big of a deal in purchasing a firearm.

The technology is VERY far, from something considered full proof. There are still a lot of common issues, that could impair the technology from recognizing the correct “user.”
There is legitimate concern about things like sweat, blood, or any substance on a person’s hand, preventing the lock from unlocking.
With ANY technology, there is a possibility that the tech simply fails, or doesn’t work as designed.

For most, a weapon used for defense, should be as close to 100% operable as possible.
From firearm maintenance, to the ammunition one chooses, dependability, is key.

Realistically. There is no current, mass production, safety mechanism like a biometric lock for firearms that will guarantee the owner that it will not interfere with normal operations of the weapon.

Firearms owners, like myself, expect to likely never have to actually fire it at another person.
However. Should a situation arise, where a functional firearm is required, I expect my firearms to work.

They had some success, with a ring mechanism. Essentially. A firearm had a lock in it that could only be unlocked by a ring on presumably the owner’s finger, as they gripped the weapon. I believe that was more dependable, but then you had to worry about wearing the ring all the time, or loosing it.

Home defense weapons, are often used to protect a family.
That means, possibly, that all members of the family (or at least the one’s capable) may have to potentially use the weapon. Any devices, designed to keep a firearm functional for only one person, will fail to serve that purpose.

Ultimately. It should be, case by case.

Many things, can be stolen and used for violence or killing.

One of the biggest mass casualty events in NYC history, happened at an illegal nightclub.
A man was denied entry, to the only door. He returned later, with a small container of gasoline. He was able to start a fire, at the only door. The fire, sucked all of the air out of the nightclub.
Over 80 people, were suffocated, and found dead.
After the incident, nobody tabled making gas stations liable for fires caused by gas bought at respective stations, or making them liable for car crashes from gas they sold.

The article I read this morning, said the shooter left his algebra class, and returned with the firearm. Doors in that school automatically lock, after classes end, so the shooter was unable to reenter the classroom. Apparently, he knocked, but wasn’t let in because someone saw he had a gun.
According to the article, there were a multitude of safety measures, specifically for a possible shooter. Sounds like most teachers, carried a card that acted as a panic button that alerted the local police and each card, could be located easily by responding police.
Obviously. The automatic locking doors, were also a countermeasure.

It’s certainly relevant, where/how the student acquired the firearm. And those details, are very important.

Personally. I’m curious how the rifle made it’s way into the school.
As with Trump’s would be assassin, the weapon of choice was an AR-15. Most of these particular firearms, are fairly long, and heavy. Most, are not collapsible, or able to be stored in say a backpack. The weapon can be disassembled and reassembled, but that is unlikely what happened.

The school seems to have been fairly well prepared, for such an event. I’m certain that there are lots of cameras, and all kinds of reasons that it would be very difficult to get such a weapon into the school. Especially, if there was more ammunition than just one magazine.

It IS relevant, that this particular child, WAS looked into for this exact concern. He made a post about shooting up a middle school, on Discord.
They talked to the kid, and the parents, and this STILL happened.

Ultimately. There was no legal reason, to be more aggressive than the actions taken.
This IS because of the constitution.
Not just, the 2nd amendment.
The constitution, keeps the police from being able to invade your home, and/or take your firearms, or falsely imprison you.

The constitution is very much, a double edged sword. It was meant to protect us, but can also obviously harm us.

I do not believe, that holding parents responsible, is a realistic way to address this issue.
However. Having REAL discussions about firearms, where anti-gun people are educated on the subject enough to actually contribute, AND gun-enthusiasts don’t hide behind the 2nd amendment, should be taking place.

Circumstances have evolved to the point, it doesn’t matter what the constitution says, as much as the results of these events.

It is VERY relevant, to understand that a US presidential election, is in the very near future.
Skipping the reasons, I hope that anti-gun people understand that THIS is a time when gun owners are waiting for the election and any potential fallout. As ridiculous, as that really is, it is a fact.
In other words, gun control talk, will fall on deaf ears, until at least 2025…
People aren’t going to be trying to get rid of their firearms, when there is sadly/disturbingly a realistic fear of possible Civil War.

Israel, has killed tens of thousands of innocent people, with US weapons. Should the US, be responsible?

What about Osama Bin Laden?
It was the US, that trained and armed his forces, to fight the Russians, and he used that training (in part) to plan and execute the 9/11 attacks.

Cause and effect, are easy to observe sometimes. But. That doesn’t make things any simpler.

What real-world advantages do biometric locks have that regular locks don’t? There are numerous disadvantages. They’re just a bad idea.

This system sounds like it would be effective in every school:

A new panic alarm system that was triggered during the deadly shooting likely saved countless lives, authorities and advocates for the technology said.

Teachers at the school are all equipped with a panic button on the back of their ID badges, a measure that was triggered for the first time after a gunman opened fire at the high school.

Lockdown warnings flashed on classroom screens at Apalachee High School as gunshots rang out, prompting students and teachers to lock the door, turn off the lights and huddle in the farthest corner from the entrance, witnesses said.

At the same time, alerts automatically went out to law enforcement officers, who responded and ended the shooting rampage within minutes, according to Barrow County Sheriff Jud Smith and Georgia Bureau of Investigation Director Chris Hosey.

“The protocols at this school and this system activated today prevented this from being a much larger tragedy,” Hosey said at a news conference Wednesday night.

Regardless how you want to punish the gun owner, what does have to happen is as a society we have to STOP glorifying violence, its all over entertainment, video games and so forth.
Firearms have to be securely stored same with the ammo.
Maybe it’s time to stop the sale of NEW AR15s, and the ones in the public hands should be required to be registered.(since for now it seems to be the gun of choice for these nut jobs that want to go on a shooting spree).
Here in Canada a AR15 is a highly restricted gun, you can’t legally hunt with one all you can do is use it at approved gun ranges.

@smudges all that is true, but if the shithead hadn’t had the gun, it would have been irrelevant.

When he was 13, he left a threat on his FB page. The cops went to his home & Dad assured them that he did have guns but the boy would NOT have access to them at any given point. Here it is a year later & he DID get access when he decided he wanted to create havoc. In this case, I think Dad should be charged for lying to the cops last year. The boy is being charged as an adult & I think that should include the death penalty whether it is used or not.

They arrested the father tonight. There is more going on today. Makes me wonder what the dad said to the FBI, and if he lied to them (bad idea!).

Father was arrested on second degree murder (other charges too) . . gave his son, at 13 the gun for Christmas last year. That was after FBI visit for Face Book threatening!

The shooter is 14. He is so young. Generally, I am very for the juvenile system and not trying young people as adults, but I think he must have known what he was doing if he had actually been questioned before. If I was his mother, I think I would wish he had been killed by the cops. Life in prison or waiting to be executed by the state and the possibility of being abused in prison, I would just want him dead for him and my own sanity. If I was the parent of the people murdered I have no idea if I would want him dead or to suffer in every possible way. He is only 14. Will he be able to plead insanity? I wonder if he was being abused and the social workers missed it. Were social workers questioning him or was it the cops a year ago?

Probably investigators like that he is still alive, and they can try to understand how the mind of a teen mass shooter works.

Maybe the father usually did keep the rifle locked up, and one slip up. It doesn’t matter in terms of pressing charges against him, he is responsible for keeping it locked, but I am only saying we don’t know if he lied.

@Blackwater_Park Are you talking about when said women is home, or only when she is away from the house? I am ok with her sleeping with the gun under her pillow.

@elbanditoroso Well, of course, it would have been irrelevant! I was simply pointing out the safety measures which were in place. School and mass public shootings aren’t going to go away and all the talk about what should and shouldn’t be done with guns is irrelevant. Guns are here to stay, period. The people behind the laws are too powerful to overcome or out-vote. What we need to work on is safety for when a situation arises. That’s what I was pointing out.

UPDATE…
The dad has been arrested & charged with 2nd degree murder,

On the news, it said that the father gave the son the AR-15 as a gift, after he was interviewed for the terroristic threats. Makes zero sense. The dad should be charged, in my opinion, because he’s not logical.

Sorry, i see that @Tropical Willie wrote the same thing above.

If there was a law against the sale and purchase of AR15 style weapons, the dad would be in a much better spot right now, because the law would have prevented him from buying the gun for his kid. I wonder what he now thinks about having a law like that.

I haven’t seen mention of a mom yet, have you all?

Apparently the mom is serious white trash. Multiple arrests shoplifting drugs and various other things

Sounds like that kid had a shitty home life.

And if we can’t fix the families, we have to limit their access to the weapons.

It’s important to point out that Barrow county where this took place is a redneck county. It’s one of the last rural redneck counties in the Atlanta metro area.

It’s situated between Athens, which is the home of the University of Georgia, which is a pretty liberal institution, and Gwinnett county, which is one of the largest counties of Georgia and is rapidly turning to be a blue county after having been a red County for 100 years.

We don’t know much about the parents yet, but from what I have read in the Atlanta papers and heard on the local news, the parents fit easily into the white trash classification.

^^Also, important to say that dysfunctional families can be in both rural and urban communities. I guess the redneck part lends itself to people who support freewheeling gun ownership, but certainly there are many very responsible wholesome people in rural towns.

@janbb That is punishing the many for the failings of the few. That’s like saying that a drunk driver kills a car load of kids, so we need to limit access to cars for everyone. Without the car, those kids would still be alive.

I don’t know about your upbringing, but I remember when I was back in junior high and high school, people would frequently have guns on a gun rack in their cars. It was common place. Students in HS that drove to school might have them. But we didn’t have any school shootings. It isn’t the guns that are the problem. It is whatever made the change in our society where people lost the sense of value to life. Where it became cool to kill others. Where the 15 minutes of fame was worth the crime. Where people stop seeing it as even a vile thing…that someone else’s life is well worth the sacrifice to make if you get what you want out of it. What is it that made these changes? That is what needs to be addressed. Sex and violence on TV and in video games might be a big contributor. Drugs might be another contributor. Music that glorifies gangsters and protests that support violent people show it is okay in the mainstream. No one has ever really looked at these things seriously before.

@seawulf575 We’ve been round this block many times before so I’m not going to go back and forth. We have strict DWI laws now and are holding bars accountable. And we have seat belt requirements to prevent car deaths and car inspection requirements. If you have a car, there are licensing, insurance and safety rules. There is no reason that guns cannot be regulated.

And if gun rights advocates are so concerned about mental health issues being the cause of mass murders, then their legislators should be funding massive mental health initiatives for those at risk. But they don’t.

@janbb Gun owners don’t have to be accountable. That’s the reason God gave them the 2nd Amendment ! !~~~

From the Atlanta Journal this morning, about the mother:

Marcee Gray, the mother of the suspect in Wednesday’s Apalachee High School shooting, has a criminal record spanning more than 17 years and four counties, court records show.

The 43-year-old has faced prosecution in Barrow, Fulton and Forsyth counties, accused of domestic violence, drug possession, property damage and traffic violations. She has also faced civil fraud claims related to a vehicle purchase and was in jail in Ben Hill County as recently as April, according to publicly available court filings.

I have been too close to too many mass shootings. It is something that effects the whole community, not merely the victims and their loved ones. My heart hurts for all community members affected by this.

I like to think there’s a parallel between gun ownership and automobile ownership.

Car owners are generally required to have some sort of liability insurance.

Why should gun owners not have a similar requirement?

Car owners are generally required to register their vehicles and to pay a tax or fee for that registration.

Why should gun owners not have a similar requirement?

Automobile operators (drivers) are required to show that that they are proficient in the operation and safety techniques involved in driving.

Why should firearm operators (shooters) not have a similar requirement?

@seawulf575 Why did kids have gun racks on their vehicles?

Hahaha, I love this “punishing the gun owners” attitude that some have. Punishing. Really. What a load of crap. Like the ownership of the gun is a necessity for most of them. Spoiler alert…it’s not. For a very few, perhaps.

To@JLeslie they were in the vehicle mainly for hunting but lots of times they stayed in the rack long after the season ended and no one really cared, now a days if anyone sees a firearm they are freaking out.

Source: Independent

Meanwhile, Gray’s parents were going through a bitter separation and custody battle and the family was on the radar of the department of family and children’s services, the GBI said at a press conference.

It is understood the teenager was living with his father during the split, according to the BBC.

The teenager’s own maternal grandfather told CNN the boy “lived in an environment that was hostile.” Charles Polhamus said: “His dad beat up on him, I mean, I’m not talking about physical, but screaming and hollering, and he did the same thing to my daughter.”

And there were drug and alcohol problems at home. Gray’s mother, Marcee Gray, has been arrested mutliple times and accused of drug offenses. She has also done a stint in rehab, according to family.

She was first arrested in March 2007 on five vehicle-related misdemeanors, including reckless driving, improper right turn, and DUI, court documents show.

Marcee pleaded guilty in June 2008, paying a $600 fine and receiving 12 months probation, plus 40 hours of community service, according to a review of Fulton County, Georgia, court records. She “successfully completed all conditions of probation” in August 2010, the docket shows.

In November 2023, Marcee was arrested on a pair of felony drug possession charges after allegedly getting caught in her car with “a glass jar with a crystal-like substance known to be methamphetamine,” and a “red clear baggie with a powder substance known as fentanyl,” according to an arrest warrant filed in Barrow County Superior Court.

She was also hit with misdemeanors for having “a clear glass pipe used for the ingestion of narcotics,” a baggie containing “multiple” tablets of cyclobenzaprine, a prescription pain pill, and for affixing someone else’s license plate to her Nissan Rogue, records show.

Marcee ultimately pleaded guilty to three misdemeanors: second-degree criminal damage to property, criminal trespass, and use of a license plate to conceal identity.

Although she faced a maximum sentence of seven years in prison, Marcee was sentenced to a month-and-a-half in jail, which was all but canceled out with credit for time served, plus roughly five years of felony probation, according to plea documents in the case.

The judge forbade her from using drugs or alcohol, and she was barred from having contact with her husband.

Marcee also faced civil charges brought in 2019 by a Chevy dealer who accused her and her husband of passing a bad check as a down payment, according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. (The final disposition of the case is unclear.)

A neighbor revealed there were “problems immediately” when the family moved into the area in 2022.

Lauren Vickers told the New York Post: “There were nights where the mom would lock him and his sister out the house. And they would be banging on the back door, just screaming like ‘Mom! mom! mom!’ and crying. It was absolutely devastating.”

She added: “It was constant abuse. It’s very, very sad.”

Marcee’s younger sister, Annie Polhamus Brown, has been highly critical of her sibling’s parenting skills, and has previously lashed out on social media about it. Following the horrific school shooting, Polhamus Brown said she was focused primarily on the victims her nephew is accused of killing and maiming.

“Our hearts and humble prayers are with the families affected by this devastating tragedy,” she told The Independent.

@janbb Yes, we have strict DWI laws. We also have many gun control laws. We have laws against threatening or shooting someone with a gun. Laws against discharging firearms within the city limits. Laws prohibiting the carrying of guns in various locations. We have laws prohibiting murder. We have background checks by the FBI prior to purchasing a gun. We have, at least in my area, the requirement to get a permit to purchase a gun to give the local cops a chance to verify you aren’t a criminal or something. There are many, many regulations about gun ownership. And for the most part, gun owners are very responsible. You can see that by the number of legal gun owners in the country and the number of murders or accidents that happen with their guns.

My point is that trying to regulate guns even more is a red herring. It is already against the law to murder someone. It was illegal for this kid to bring the gun to school. None of the laws stop someone that wants to break the laws. And this phenomenon of wanting to get famous or make a statement by shooting up a school or some other public place is relatively new. As I said, I can remember seeing guns in gun racks in the school property. There were no shootings at the school. Something else has changed to where this seems to be a goal now. What changed? That is what needs to be figured out if you are serious about not wanting any more of these shootings or if you have a hope of passing a law that will help.

Your own argument supports the idea that more laws are not the answer. We already have laws against driving while intoxicated. Yet we have a couple million arrests per year in this country. It is against the law to text while driving yet we lose a couple people a day due to doing it. Why aren’t these crimes stopping if we have tons of laws against them? Maybe we should punish more non-offenders to make us all feel good that we are doing something? The same thing applies to guns. There are an estimated 250M people who are gun owners in this country. They own somewhere in the neighborhood of 340M guns. Yet guns only murder about 10,000 people per year. I’m excluding suicides (another 22,000 or so) since a suicide would kill themselves some other way if a gun was not available. Assuming all gun deaths are from legally owned guns and that a different person killed each of those people 1 at a time (which is being grossly conservative) that is still only 0.004% of gun owners breaking the law. It sounds like most gun owners are law abiding, and aren’t running around like maniacs shooting anyone they see.

There is something that is making life seem less important in our society. There is something that is making it seem a good idea to someone that is very depressed or confused to run out and kill a few people. Again…if you want to solve these tragedies, you need to get to the actual root cause, not just take an easy one that won’t solve the problem.

He had a miserable upbringing.

^it’s very sad

I would like to point out something, to the “register all guns” club.
This would be almost impossible to enforce.

There is no real record of the firearms even being purchased.
Some states differ, but many states just sell you a firearm, if you pass the NICS background check.
After that, the form used for application for buying the weapon is put into storage at the place of sale. It is kept there, for several years.
But there is NO record, of whom bought what, when, or where.

It may seem ridiculous (and it is,) but you can buy 50 AR-15s, and 50,000 rounds of ammo, and nobody except whomever sold it knows.

There is also very little way of tracking the weapon, once it leaves a store. It is perfectly legal, to resell a firearm to anyone you want, and with no paperwork, or evidence it was even sold.

I personally have my serial numbers, on my phone. Nobody else, tracks the numbers.

If I have a gun stolen, I have to report it, AND provide the serial number to the authorities.
There is not any sort of database, that tracks firearms.

If a firearm has been involved in a crime, the serial number may show up as stolen or reveal previous crimes the weapon was involved with, but that is all. It doesn’t get traced back, to how it became part of a crime.

Since there are hundreds of millions of unregistered, untracked firearms, already in circulation, starting new laws today, likely won’t really have any effect on crime or mass shootings.

AR-15s get the front page infamy, but are rarely used in actual crimes.
The vast majority of crimes involving a firearm or deaths involving a firearm, are from “hand guns.”

While American media, and anti-gun people are focused on a specific style of firearm, they are actually ignoring the millions of Americans who are constantly a victim of violent crimes, or living violent crime adjacent in places like the South Side of Chicago.

A LOT of guns that are in “illegal circulation” (being passed around ghettos,) are stolen.
They are typically stolen from locked vehicles, or homes.
In other words, already “secure” locations.
Once involved with a crime, most will sell the a firearm to another person who will likely commit a crime with it, and repeat that cycle. It’s unfortunately common, for a pistol to be linked to a multitude of violent crimes, all unrelated. That’s because it changes hands, until it ends up somehow in the hands of law enforcement.

Wulf brings up an excellent point, about how much times have changed in regards to firearms. Even when I was in high-school, some students had shotgun/rifle racks in their trucks (no guns, but when not in school, they had them.)

I can almost hear Wulf channeling JD Vance, as if to opine that it’s the moving away from religion and Christian values, that has caused this mass shooting problem.
I’m going to half agree actually. Parents, are a BIG deal in a child’s life. If a child is raised by unfiltered video games and movies, instead of a parent, I do think they have a higher chance at being an outsider in school or public places. That ignorance of how to behave around others, I think makes other students ostracize them.
Bullying is a MASSIVE contributing factor, in my mind. The teachers rarely do much about it. I can’t blame them, as it shouldn’t be their jobs to stop physical altercations or deal with potentially dangerous students. But. Bullying just goes on, unchecked, and I think it builds up in these kids.
Most kids, just have a rough childhood, and then life is better.
Some, start thinking about physically harming their bullies, and probably the complicit students too.
I recall the Pearljam song “Jeremy” (or more specifically the music video) being controversial in the early 1990’s.
The song, and to a degree the video, were about a bullied child, with bad parents, who essentially snapped in school.
Although the lyrics were non-specific, in regards to exactly how Jeremy took his “revenge,” the video portrayed a classroom with dead students in it. The insinuation, was clear.

I know that drugs like crack, and now meth, etc, are the biggest factor in most gun related crime. That was something that Americans like boomers, can’t understand. As they just didn’t grow up around the damage that such drugs did, to impoverished places.
Drugs make people “dope sick,” and that straight changes a person. An astounding amount of crime, is related to a street drug of one kind, or the other.

These school shootings, are mostly VERY similar.
Not to be reductive, or to oversimplify, but “hurt people, hurt people.”

I believe that many of these shooters, are victims themselves.

It seems to me, if we removed poverty, most crimes would disappear. Impoverished neighborhoods, are often dangerous places, and add nothing but harm to communities surrounding them as well.

@JLeslie I’m not ok with that. A quick open safe can be operated in a couple of seconds.

@SQUEEKY2 I don’t understand this obsession with the AR-15. It’s largely a media frenzy creating the buzz about it. It’s not particularly powerful or really any different from other rifles. It looks scary and military so I guess that equals bad? All these mass shooters seem to use it as if instructed by the media through their narrative. Banning it seems to be a bad idea in the sense that mass shooters will move on to firearms that are better suited to the job like handguns, long-range hunting rifles, and shotguns. An AR is a jack of all trades but a master of none. It’s the last rifle a firearm-educated mass shooter would use. AR-15s generally suck. It’s really telling just how uneducated most people are about firearms that they believe this AR-15 nonsense.

^AR-15s generally suck? Tell that to all the families that have lost a child in school.

@jonsblond Nice flame-bait. The truth is, they do. More kids could have been lost if other firearms were used. In that sense, the media is doing a good thing by pushing them. It’s just telling though, that mass shooters keep going to them. Perhaps the narrative is more important and we could find ways to stop them through said narrative instead if giving them tutorials.

AR-15s are only hunting guns for humans !

@Blackwater_Park A friend of a friend woke up to the rapist in her bedroom. I realize the rapist could possibly get the gun and use it, but just saying stranger rape can be so incredibly traumatic, and men have such a huge advantage with their size and strength, if it helps her sleep at night I’m ok with it. A gun can be the equalizer for women. I don’t use one, but I can understand the mindset.

NSFW:
To be graphic, I find most men never even imagine being raped, so I just don’t think they get it. Don’t think about it happening to a woman, think about YOU! With a man putting his penis or objects into you and so deep in your throat you gag and throw up and feel like you can’t breath, and force you to swallow. Or, in your ass possibly ripping you so badly you need surgery to repair it if you survive, and having to take antibiotics and anti-HIV medication and day after pills to hopefully prevent infection and pregnancy. Rape is not just unwanted sex, I do assume you understand it is a violent act, I don’t question that, but it can be much more violent, painful, and physically destructive than maybe you have imagined. Let alone the psychological aspect.

@Blackwater_Park the flame-bait is giving any excuse to own these types of guns.

More kids could have been lost? The amount of children we lose now isn’t enough?

@SQUEEKY2 I think most of those boys and men think it’s cool. Like driving a Ferrari or an expensive truck.

The first time I saw a gun rack on the back of a truck was in the late 1980’s when I went to Texas for the first time and it was jarring. I can’t understand needing several guns for a hunting trip, and my impression was the rifles are there all of the time. Can’t the rifles be locked up in the bed of the truck and not on display?

Ted Talk by a guy who was almost a school shooter. https://youtu.be/azRl1dI-Cts?si=eY51pat1Vrilj729

@Blackwater_Park
Really? Then why is the most common rifle at 2 and 3 gun competitions some variation of AR?

@ragingloli Because that’s what they’re mainly for. They’re called sporting rifles for a reason.

Yes, where it is about time, accuracy, reliability. What makes them ideal in shooting steel targets as quickly as possible, also makes them ideal at shooting children.

It has more to do with the fact that they’re adaptable with all kinds of attachments that come on and off easy for different competitions and stuff. Why they’re the swiss army knives of rifles.

@Blackwater_Park
You are putting the cart in front of the horse there, buddy. It has so much aftermarket parts for customisability, because it is a great platform to begin with.

@JLeslie There were usually several racks so the driver and his buddies that are in the same vehicle could carry them.
I think they didn’t want them in the back where they would be carrying dead deer and possibly getting their rifles bloody. I really don’t see this as much now as in the 60’s and 70’s.

@ragingloli if you say so. I disagree, not a lot of practical utility.

AR stands for Assault Rifle. Assault. Not hunting, unless someone plans to “assault” a deer or a turkey. Not target practice. Assault.

I agree with @chyna. I don’t see gun racks in pickups any more either.

@chyna That makes sense.

As far as seeing the racks, I would have no idea, because I don’t live in the states or cities where I had seen them before. If you and @Dutchess_III say you see them less in places where it used to be more commonplace I am glad to hear it. I find it interesting since I feel like the gun culture is even more vocal than before, but maybe I am just more aware of it now.

@Dutchess_III it actually stands for Armalite, the original manufacturer.
And the ones you can buy as a civilian are not assault rifles, because they can not fire in full auto.
Just letting you know, because whenever someone says “AR stands for assault rifle”, the other pro-gun side then responds with “you don’t even know anything about guns, so your opinion is invalid”.

Not that it matters, because full auto, even in a military context, is only used in certain situations, like suppressive fire, or clearing a room. Most of the time it’s used in semi-automatic mode, because full auto wastes ammunition and is inaccurate.
You can still shoot quickly even by pulling the trigger repeatedly.

@jonsblond It was flame bait. You do realize that more people are murdered with hands and feet that with AR-15’s every year? Handguns top them, Knives top them, clubs top them…they are won of the smallest causes of gun homicide in the country. The reason they get so much press is largely because they “look scary”. I suspect more people use them to shoot up schools because the Dems and the media have made such a huge deal out of them. Walking into a school with a .45 ACP pistol, a 9mm pistol or even a shotgun would likely kill more people than using an AR-15. The Virginia Tech shooter killed 32 people with a 9mm pistol and a .22 caliber pistol.

I’m not supporting school shootings, I’m not saying they aren’t horrible, But focusing on one thing is not going to stop the violence. Passing more laws is useless as well, until we figure out the “why” of the shooters. Why did they think it was okay to go shoot up a school? If we can figure that out, then the “what did they use” question falls off the radar since it is meaningless.

This is one of those multi-faceted issues, like many things we deal with. I haven’t read up on the kid but from what I am hearing on the news, he had a very tough life (as detailed by some Jellies above), and not that it justifies the horror of what he did, but it may gain him some sympathy in court.

It sounds like he should have been removed from his parents’ care and custody long ago but was not. Maybe some areas are more lax about doing that. In the area I worked in, shit like a child being locked out of his house at night in the cold wouldn’t be tolerated.

I think in the coming weeks, as it’s investigated more, we’ll learn more about his life. his upbringing, his parents’ upbringing, his health including his mental health, and all other things that will paint a better picture.

As far as the weapon goes, the reason (in my amateur opinion) that weapon gets so much bad press is because of its ability to kill many people within a very short amount of time. Unlike hand to hand combat or other things mentioned above, someone can walk into a school or a theater or a workplace or other public space and bap bap bap bap bap spray the area and wreak some major carnage.

Some of these answers are so off the point that it is ridiculous.

1) It doesn’t matter whether AR standards for Armalite or Advance Reality. That’s what the killing rifles are called.

2) It doesn’t matter if “real law abiding licenses gun owners” sneer at the AR-15. What licensed owners do is completely irrelevant. The fact is that the AR- series is the killing machine of choice for the criminals. I could care less what licenses gun owners think. If killers (any age) like AR-15s for their mass murders, than that’s the gun to get rid of.

3) That more people get killed with hands or feet than AR-15s is also irrelevant. People don’t walk into classrooms and kill people with their feet. That was a stupid argument, @seawulf575

4) Finally, and probably my last work in this discussion – it doesn’t really matter if the killer kid had a bad childhood or not. That’s an excuse. The underlying fact is that a 14 year old kid decided that taking a gun to school and killing his classmates was a good idea. The kid is guilty, no matter why he made the decision. It was still his decision.

@elbanditoroso If you’re referring to my comment about the killer’s childhood, I did say that it doesn’t justify the horror of what he did.

@elbanditoroso I agree with your summary.

Regarding the shooter being so young and having a terrible home life, he’s going to jail forever or maybe psychiatric jail. I think it is good to know what helps to create some of these shooters and what might prevent it from happening. What might also prevent boys like him from suffering so much.

I stand corrected @Raggy.

“The fact is that the AR- series is the killing machine of choice for the criminals ”

It’s not though, handguns are, and by a huge margin. Robberies, murders gang activity… all handguns. Kids and crazies who go shoot up schools use an AR because they’re following the playbook given to them.

@Blackwater_Park you just answered my question honestly.

You wrote:
“School shooters use AK-style guns because they are following the playbook.”

You have supported my point perfectly, although you didn’t mean to. AK-style weapons are the problem, not revolvers, handguns, BB-guns, or even bows and arrows.

Funny you said AK. Those civilian AK platform rifles operate the same, are cheaper, more powerful are just as available and yet only AR platform is used. Why do you think that is? So you’re saying the playbook is not a big part of the problem?

that is only because it is a communist’s weapon.

@seawulf575 SHOW ME THE LINKS. about more people killed . . . .

CDC says 24,849 homicides and Firearms deaths number is 19,651 ! ! !

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

You must be using the NRA website . . . NRA means New Russian Agency

@elbanditoroso Yes, not many people walk into schools and kill people with their hands and feet. Yet more people get killed that way than with AR-15 style guns. But which gets more press? Which is made out to sound like it is the top leader in murders? Ask your average Joe in the US…a man on the street questioning….and you will find that people believe at least 50,000 people are killed with AR-15s every year, or some such nonsense. So while you are blathering on about my answer of hands and feet kill more, you might want to step down off your soap box long enough to ask why such are stress is put on one style of gun that kills fewer people than many other styles or even no guns?

And all the discussions about what type of gun is totally irrelevant to this question anyway. So why have so many people brought it up?

Show me the LINKS ! ! !

@Tropical_Willie No, I use FBI data. What I’m seeing when I look at the FBI data for homicides is that it breaks it down pretty nicely. And this was from 2022 which is newer than your CDC data.

Handguns = 7,937
Firearms, type not stated = 5,706
Knives or cutting instruments = 1,630
Other weapons or weapons not stated = 1,327
Personal weapons (hands/fists/feet/etc.) = 665
Rifles = 542
Other guns = 422
Blunt objects (clubs/hammers/etc.) = 367
Narcotics = 187
Shotgun = 186
Asphyxiation = 98
Fire = 94

The AR-15s fall into the “Rifle” category and aren’t even all the rifle deaths there. And no, you can’t try to say it was not stated as we know how much press these silly guns get. If you care to do the math, that is 19,161 homicides reported which includes ALL homicides, not just gun deaths. Gun deaths are closer to 14,793. Yes, gun deaths do make up the majority, no argument there. But your numbers are way off.

@seawulf575 The type of gun is not irrelevant in this context though. It’s a clue to what is partially to blame for this here. If there was not this background narrative, this playbook, we would see the type of gun used be more random. We would see many more handguns being used. Likely, mass shootings would not be so prevalent. People just don’t want to see it.

@seawulf575 your link IS BOGUS !

The claim was more murders by hand by YOU posted . . . . . 7,937 handguns plus 5,706 other firearms equals 13,643 far out numbers other murders.

OH CDC numbers include suicides !

Go grab the NRA numbers you really meant to post !

@Blackwater_Park The question is what should happen to the gun owner if their gun is used in the commission of a crime, specifically a school shooting. Given that question, the type of gun is irrelevant. If you had a handgun or a shotgun and your kid got it or if it was stolen from you and then used to shoot up a school, is that any different than if it was an AR-15 style gun? No. You were the owner of the weapon used…period. Type is irrelevant.

@Tropical_Willie You are starting to get sketchy as you type. Take your meds and calm down. You are obviously overwrought. Take a look again at what I just gave you. Personal weapons (Hands, feet, etc) was 665. Rifles were 542. 665 is more than 542 and not all of the 542 were AR rifles. I’ve said nothing wrong, I gave you the evidence you wanted, and you are sputtering.

YOU need counseling @seawulf575 !

Not on meds, maybe you should be – - PTSD ? ?

Sandy Hook should have ended this discussion. Republicans care about guns more than children.

Did Wulfie just say “overwrought”? Lovin it!

@jonsblond I think it was after the Stockton shooting that assault style rifles were banned, that was signed by Bush, but had a ten year sunset clause.

There are people who don’t even believe Sandy Hook happened. They listen to Alex Jones and his insanity. I really think he must be mentally ill. I don’t think there are a lot of people who believe Sandy Hook didn’t happen, but that anyone buys into the conspiracy theory is mind boggling.

I think Uvalde gives Texas the possibility of going to the Democrats more than before, because Uvalde was mostly a Hispanic area, and Republican Latin Americans are in that party either because of religion or fear of socialism, or they don’t vote yet, but maybe will vote after events like this. In cities like the last shooting in Georgia, they will stick to the idea that more guns can stop the bad people doing these shootings.

The AR15 may not be sold as an assault rifle, but it can be modified, easily and legally, to perform almost as well as an assault rifle, so fuck Bush @JLeslie.

When they “banned” assault rifles in the 90’s it was a huge joke in the shooting community. It was clear that lawmakers had no idea. “Assault Rifle” was a made up phrase around that time. The “ban” made certain cosmetic features illegal because there was no such thing to be banned. They would have had to have banned most firearms because there is no such thing as an assault rifle. They’re just semi-automatic rifles. In the end, they had to do something I suppose. All that ban did was cause serious penalties, fines and jail time for things that don’t even matter like grips, folding stocks, and stuff like that.

“Assault rifle” was coined by the Sturmgewehr, which literally translates to assault rifle, and which was the first assault rifle. Assault rifle being defined as as a rifle that can select between semi and full auto firing modes, and fires an “intermediate” cartridge, meaning one that is larger than a pistol round, but weaker than a full power cartridge used by guns like the Kar98K, the M1 Garand, or even later weapons like the FAL, which is why the latter, and others of its kind are called “battle rifles” instead of assault rifles.

@ragingloli I get that, but it was the media that started using the term incorrectly around the 90’s leading to some of the most ineffective gun legislation in history. “Assault Rifle” was not part of the vernacular in the US until all of that nonsense.

@Blackwater_Park Whatever term is wrong or right, what is your proposal for how to stop mass murders and particularly kids being shot up in schools? As has been pointed out in many places, Canada has guns and yet no mass murders. What should be done in the US to stop this and why isn’t it being done? Clearly school shootings are not just “a fact of life”!

What are the gun laws in Canada.

@Dutchess_III Maybe Squeeky can weigh in on that.

@janbb People focusing on gun laws consistently get them wrong. I don’t think there is a really good solution when it comes to gun laws currently. Too much polarization, fear, ignorance, and misplaced, excessive gun culture. We can certainly work to make better gun laws but we also need to look at what has happened to make mass shootings a common occurrence. What changed? What’s the motivation now that was not there before? People don’t want to consider this, and we must or it will keep happening in one form or another.

^^ I agree and I think there has to be legislation and funding to look into the underlying causes. Where is the Congressional will to pass such legislation? Why is this not happeneing?

And here’s a relevant article from The Onion from 10 years ago.

Bad link girlfriend.

Try this:

https://theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527/?fbclid=IwY2xjawFKuyRleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHY35FtKfjgwPHfarkC48tmtz9kgl9-hhPHHN2YrR4owZCQK07inG9lagdw_aem_7OxYDbcBWYJlTrmtWkOzaw

@janbb Studies are happening, funded by the govt or not. I asked Bing search engine “are there any studies regarding the cause of school gun violence” and got many reputable sources on just the first page. I decided it would be easier if those interested were to type in that question rather then me trying to read it all and break it into manageable parts.

At a glance, the reasons are basically what we’ve already come up with.

@smudges So what we need now is some results! My oldest was in high school when Columbine happened and he’s 44 now! Luckily, my grandsons live in France.

I typed ”are there any studies about what will stop school shootings” into Bing and found a number of interesting articles.

Here’s one quote from the npr site: “School safety researchers also support universal background checks and banning assault-style weapons. But it’s not just about how shooters legally acquire firearms. A 2019 report from the Secret Service found that in half the school shootings they studied, the gun used was either readily accessible at home or not meaningfully secured.”

Sounds like one thing that would help is laws about how we store guns, and that varies from state to state and even city by city. Lawmakers need to put on their big boy pants and make federal laws rather than worrying about what is and isn’t popular and who the lobbyists are with the deepest pockets. I see no reason why gun owners as well as anti-gun people couldn’t come together on this one issue.

@smudges Yes!

IMO secure storage laws can be passed much easier, make more sense, and face less pushback than laws banning guns. We’ll find the majority of responsible gun owners already in compliance and they would be more likely to welcome laws that keep the other idiots from leaving their guns unsecured.

The secure storage laws met no opposition here in Canada,and they make sense,you could come into my house and not even know we have firearms.

So we are starting to learn that the term “Assault Weapon” was a made up thing, far removed from what the definition was and always has been, so it could be used to target weapons because they “look scary”? The only reason for doing this is for the government to outlaw guns. That is Unconstitutional in this country. So the Government is trying to play semantics to get around the Second Amendment. In many places when you try to scam people by playing semantics it’s called fraud.

^Who gives a damn what the firearm is called?! It’s being used to mow down children.

Not one person here has suggested banning guns @Blackwater_Park.

We seem to be at an impasse where some people care more about defining exactly what some guns are called and some of us care more about school children not being killed.

I’m bowing out and it is my humble suggestion to the mods that this discussion be closed.

@janbb FWIW, the obfuscation technique has been used by gun-lovers for decades to derail conversations. The real point to take from this discussion was the one in the last phrase of your first sentence – some of us care more about kids that are killed than others.

@Dutchess_III I am not naive. I know many on here would pull that lever if they could. They don’t have to say it.

Semantics are more important than children. ~

Responsible firearm owners would never harm an innocent with a gun, so I would like to ask what do you want from us?
Most people have no problem with background checks, here in Canada you have to take a firearms safety course, and you have to have 2 people say your not a threat,and the police will contact them then you qualify for a firearms license that lets you buys guns and ammo.
It sickens me when someone goes on a mass shooting spree, what drives a person to do that?
BUT what does me owning guns have anything to do with that?

@janbb No, where we are is an impasse where some people want to focus on guns and not solutions. And it is all irrelevant anyways since the question was about whether or not the owners of a gun used in a shooting should be punished or not. But when I tried to say this sideline discussion was irrelevant, I got jumped. So we are at this impasse.

@SQUEEKY2 I posted a video above talking about what drives some people to become school shooters.

In most places in the US the hoops to get a gun are nothing like what you just described, in some place almost non-existent.

Check out the table with how many guns per capita in US vs other nations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country