How does the fact that alledgedly 41,000+ Palestinians are now dead as a result of the "defense of Israel, and weapons provided by America, make you feel?

It it my understanding that this is a gross undercount and the likely number of dead Gazans is closer to 200k. The standards for making it on that list are very high (by design). Let’s say you need dialysis to survive, and then Israel blows up every hospital in Gaza and shoots you if you try to leave, and you die because there are no machines left to give you dialysis, according to the official stats your death isn’t counted (natural causes) but surely you’d be alive otherwise. We can forecast how many people we expect to be alive if Israel hadn’t invaded and then estimate how many there are, and the numbers (as I understand things are likely closer to 4x the official death toll).

And then think of the trauma it’s inflicted on the people. Think about the kids getting amputations without anesthesia and what their lives are now going to be like? Or the orphans who have no living relatives.

As far as how it makes me feel? Profound shame and rage at our leadership and how the AIPAC lobby has a stranglehold on our politicians.

The UK has suspended some arms sales to Israel because of how they were being used and I fully support that. The ban is of little comfort to the tens of thousands of dead Palestinians but it is of some comfort to me.

I don’t even know what to say anymore.

The idea that this is “defense” is laughable. Supposedly the casus belli is freeing the hostages. What the fuck does invading Lebanon have to do with doing that? No one should be fooled into thinking this is still some defensive operation. It is 100% aggressive. Of course, I would say that it was from the very beginning, that the goal of the initial response to October 7 was collective punishment of Gaza, not freeing hostages.

Meanwhile you have the Biden administration lamenting how “powerless” they are to stop Netanyahu and the IDF from doing what they’re doing, as if they aren’t relying on our UNCONDITIONAL MILITARY AID. At least even some mainstream news outlets are getting wise to it. I saw a Washington Post article that said that the U.S. is in a pattern of condemning what Israel is about to do, then supporting it once they actually do it to avoid having to make the flow of weapons conditional. Why not just skip the condemning step? Whom is that for?

Soon this war will have gone on for a full year. And both parties are committed to supporting it indefinitely. Don’t expect anything to change other than the rising body count.

And even that number is higher than that from Ukraine at 35k, you know, the full scale war that’s been going on for over twice as long as the Gaza bombardement, and from where we know that Russia is deliberately targeting civilians?

I feel like Israel may be toast in the long-term.

The Palestinians chose Hamas in an election some years ago. They didn’t need to, they could have moved towards a peace process, but they decide instead to ally themselves with terrorists and Iranians. A conscious choice.

And they repeated that choice for the next 25 years. So they chose their leadership, and they will die with their leadership.

Keep in mind that all the way back to 1967, Israel hasn’t started wars, rather they have been attacked. I don’t have any pity for the Palestinians (and their supporters, like Hamas,. Hesbollah, and Iran) whatsoever.

As for the use of US weapons – I think it’s great! We can see whether our weapons, ammunition, defensive equipment, and other military stuff works in real combat situations. And generally it appears to. Which is good for US weapons manufacturers and the US economy.

Back last November, I wrote here on FLuther that Hamas didn’t realize what they had done – they thought they were making a quick attack at the music festival, and they set off a conflagration.

Hamas should have thought things through a year ago.

Bummer. War is crazy. War is hell.

If a terrorist group starts a war with a gruesome unprovoked sneak attack on innocent civilians then expect bad things will happen in defense.

Israel has the right to defend itself with severe measures from attacks.

Israel has a right to defend their country and retaliate the October 7th event.

The US has and would do the same thing if it was attacked.

I do not see an end in the near future.

Well, Israel, who is currently our only real ally in the area, is under attack from Gaza, Lebannon, and Iran. Gee, where is the outrage for those pushing against genocide? And the question still remains: where are the hostages Hamas took from their homes? It’s been almost a year now. And Hamas has been offered several peace options, all of which require them to give up the hostages and they refuse. That has led to many more deaths of their own people who they obviously don’t care about. The use them as human shields and hide under hospitals even.

I’m sorry that I can’t get all bunched up about what’s going on over there. When the Muslim nations stop fighting a holy war, things might settle down. I get far more offended at people that are mad at Israel for responding to violence with violence.

Tragic whether it’s one or 1 million innocent non-Hamas supporting Palestinians are dead.

Those Palestinians who support Hamas who believe whatever Hamas is doing to achieve their goals is working out for them…they should reevaluate their strategy.

Sorry, but meanwhile, numerous ‘wars’ are going on in the US.

It makes me feel like we are loyal to our ally, Israel, after a gruesome attack on civilians. Since our current President is half-senile, I can only hope the people running this shitshow know what they’re doing.

I don’t have the energy for that. I have a sister with stage 4 cancer, another sister in South Carolina living without power from Helene, an elderly father I care for and my own health problems to deal with. The Middle East is the least of my worries right now.

I hate war PERIOD

@KNOWITALL ” I can only hope the people running this shitshow know what they’re doing”
Does not appear that they do. They are letting them escalate into a further conflict.

If American policy toward Israel is “support no matter what”, then there can be no de-escalation. Or maybe it’s, as that one commentator said, “de-escalation through escalation”. War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength, etc.

@Demosthenes Yes. Hence, our leaders are imbeciles. The last thing the world needs it this shit show to grow larger.

@Demosthenes Help me out here: Hamas has been offered several options for cease-fires and to resolve the situation. They have rejected them all. They don’t want peace. Allah has told them to wipe Israel and Jews off the planet. So how is that the fault of the US or Israel?

@Blackwater_Park ” ” I can only hope the people running this shitshow know what they’re doing” Does not appear that they do. They are letting them escalate into a further conflict.” What if the powers behind the throne actually are wanting things to escalate? Maybe they DO know what they are doing.

They absolutely do want it to escalate. Actions speak louder than words. There has been no real attempt to de-escalate, given the one thing that could actually lead to a de-escalation is out of the question.

Almost the entire world has declared Hamas to be a terrorist organization. Why is @Demosthenes defending their actions so strongly?

@elbanditoroso Almost the entire world has declared what is happening in Gaza to be a genocide; why do you defend genocide so strongly? Is it because the elimination of a pesky thorn in Israel’s side would be convenient for your worldview?

Not what I asked, @Demosthenes

Well, too bad. I don’t feel much like answering bad faith questions today.

Listening to the IDF commanders and Netanyahu, they just want to push north (into Lebanon,) until they destroy all Hezbolah’s tunnels.
It’s important to remember that Hezbolah likely had tunnels built for an invasion into Israel. I guess, they want to blow all that up, plus whatever is considered a Hezbolah target.
It sounds like Biden+world, managed to quote “greatly reduce the Israeli response,” but I think ultimately, the IDF will keep advancing unless they are stopped somehow.
Hezbolah claims to be ready.

I personally think this is all tied to the pagers bombing, having to be executed now.
That attack only happened now, because someone found a bomb in a pagers. IDF blew them, rather than lose the advantage of surprise.
Now. It makes more strategic sense, for IDF to strike while they just badly disrupted their communications and leadership.

It’s interesting to think, that those pagers were planted potentially years ago.
So. BEFORE October 7th, Israel had already planted the pagers.
In another universe, they would have just went ahead with that attack at some point anyways.

I understand that Gazans elected Hamas, as leaders.
It’s important to note that the people of Gaza, were afraid of and angry at Israel. Naturally, the only real military deterrent was elected to protect the Strip.
And sure, they hate Israel.
BUT.
Hamas, is not Gaza.
Hezbolah, is not Lebanon.
These are not run of the mill, country versus country conflicts.

BOTH the Israelis, and those who hate them, ALL teach their children this hate.
THAT, is why they are constantly at odds.
Analysts I have heard speaking on this, say a “diplomatic solution,” is likely impossible now.

Previous peace talks have failed, largely, because Netanyahu wants to (in my opinion) kill as many Muslims as possible. Women, children, for sure. Less people to fight for the rest of time.

I’m concerned that in 3 years, there will be Israeli settlements, in Southern Lebanon…
Worse, a huge war in the ME.
I am of the opinion, America has been conditioning it’s people for an eventual military conflict with Iran.
I suspect, Israel will attempt now, to go after Iran’s nuclear weapons program. Likely in the form of dropping more massive bombs.
Right now, Netanyahu has no leash. The Israeli people, seem also pretty much ready for war with Iran, and ok with invading Lebanon too.
I know they still want the hostages back. But, from what I hear/read, the biggest obstacle to peace is Netanyahu. He wants too much. Nobody wants his armies controlling Gaza, or Lebanon. Nobody will want to live, with Israel making the rules.

@Demosthenes If genocide is your concern, then why aren’t you upset with Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran for trying that exact thing with Israel? Hamas’ charter actually says it is their Allah-given directive to eliminate Israel and Jews. That is the definition of genocide.

@MrGrimm888 “BOTH the Israelis, and those who hate them, ALL teach their children this hate. THAT, is why they are constantly at odds.” Yet Muslims make up about 18% of the Israeli population. Why isn’t there civil war in Israel if they preach hate against Muslims?

The tragic reality is whatever Israel is doing right now, Hamas and Hezbollah will survive. Their
goals will remain intact. It seems to me Netanyahu and his supporters are going for broke. They might believe no matter what they do 50 or 100 years from now they will be targeted for extinction.

@Demosthenes You are defending Palestinians in bad faith. Refusing to acknowledge that Hamas wants to inflict genocide on Israel.

It seems that Netanyahu is taking this opportunity to reshape the Middle East. Netanyahu has said that no power on earth can stop him and it seems he is right. To Netanyahu the UN is just a “swamp of antisemitic bile” and the US can be ignored especially in an election year. As the Middle East is being reshaped by the most terrible violence Israel is being reshaped in the image of Netanyahu.

Israel is in pursuit of Lebensraum.

@flutherother I wonder how that young generation of Iranians who seem to want a change of government feel about Israel?

Wulf. You’re making the assumption that the Muslims in Israel are not upset about Gaza.
I disagree with that.
You’re also assuming that that 18%, could realistically be a threat to Israel. I think that Israelis (especially Bibi,) wouldn’t mind to kill them off, whilst their culling the Muslim neighborhood.

@mazingerz88 The Iranian people, live in a theocracy.
This, is what happens when you let a religion run a nation. The extremists run things, and to rebel is likely viewed as blasphemy…

^^Still I’m wondering if the regime there for whatever reason goes down, what would those anti-theocracy Iranians do about Israel?

I think their government, is full of extremists. A regime change, would likely mean more of the same.

Had Trump not backed out of the Iranian nuclear deal, it would have been quite likely that the young people in Iran would have reaped the financial rewards of being a regular member of the Global community. That would have potentially slowly worked their country back to center.
Now. No matter who’s in charge, anger, and revenge, are all that matters. Their far right, is the element that wants Israel’s destruction.
It’s the far right, in Israel, that are responsible for the current mess.

I firmly believe that to be the case.

@MrGrimm888 I’m not assuming anything. I’m pointing out the fact that there are a great many Muslims living in Israel. That shows that there is no rabid, genocidal attitude by Israel towards Muslims. So the war must be about something else for Israelis.

Wulf. In 2015 The Israel Democracy Institute, conducted multiple surveys of the Arab population of Israel. (There was not a more recent survey, that I could find. But obviously, there will be a difference now, considering recent history.

Again. This is 2015.
To summarize, it reports that 15–17% of Muslims have experienced difficulties traveling, physical violence, and/or loss/damage of property, as a result of their religion.
(These were all seperate surveys, that just all came out at about 15%, so I threw it together.)
Additionally, 48% of Israeli Jews, said that all Arabs should be “expelled or transfered,” from Israel. The survey felt it necessary to point out that 1 in 5 adults, had strong anti-Muslim feelings…

That was in 2015.
How do you think such a survey would look today?
I’m going to wager, it’s exponentially worse.

Furthermore, the survey included statistics about health, including life expectancy, infant mortality rates, etc. Unsurprisingly, to me, the Muslims are notably less healthy.

It is relevant that over 35% of the Muslim population lives in Northern Israel, mainly in 3 cities near Lebanon. The majority of the rest live in or around Jerusalem, with obviously some people spread around.
There is a plethora of evidence, suggesting that the Muslims in Israel, are NOT WELCOME, by the Israeli people…

@MrGrimm888 surveys like that tell us quite a bit. But why do the results show us what they do? In 2015, Israel had already lived through 67 years of almost continual attacks and harassment from Muslim nations. Do you think that might add to some of the problems? But Israel doesn’t expel these Muslims and they don’t leave. That shows there is no genocidal attitude towards Muslims. Now, look at the surrounding Muslim nations. If Jews start settling in those areas, they are not treated well at all and the nations fight to expel them. That shows there is a genocidal attitude towards the Jews by the Muslims.

The whole thing is such a tragic mess. I completely see Israel’s point but I also feel horrible for the Palestine people.

Like the Italians who’s lives were destroyed because Mussolini aligned himself with the Nazi’s, it’s always the average citizens caught in the middle.

^Which is precisely why ANTIFA, was founded!

Wulf. We disagree.