Will Democrats care that Mika Brzezinski called Kamala Harris articulate this morning?

Who is Mika Brzezinski? So, I guess the answer is no, in my case.

@janbb Co-host on Morning Joe on MSNBC and watched by millions of Democratic viewers.

Edit: Her father was Jimmy Carter’s National Security Advisor.

I’m not sure how that complement is racist or derogatory. Can you please explain?

@chyna When Biden called Obama articulate many Democrats were offended and practically out of their minds trying to educate the public about how calling a Black person articulate is derogatory and should never be said. You don’t remember?

At the time, I didn’t agree, and explained white people call white people articulate as a compliment and it is meant as a compliment no matter who we say it to. I did agree that it can be used in a derogatory way, like if a racist person literally said “for a Black person he is articulate.”

I also took it off my list as ok to say, because if Black people say it hurts them then ok, I won’t use it. I wasn’t sure if it was more very extreme liberal whites telling Black people to be upset, or if they really did always hear the word articulate as upsetting.

Obviously, Mika remembers, and that’s why she explained what articulate means when she said it.

@janbb Wondering if you would care if a jelly or someone you meet at a party called Harris articulate? Does the person need to be someone you know or someone prominent?

I don’t remember that @JLeslie, but I don’t remember a lot of things. I think saying Kamala is articulate is more in saying that trump isn’t and more of a slam on him.

Context is everything.

@chyna It’s like saying “she speaks well for a black person.”

@jca2 I don’t see it that way, but we all have opinions.

I agree with @canidmajor that context matters. When Biden said it of Obama it was seen as a dismissal, I don’t think it was meant that way of Harris. (I’m also not sure that Biden meant it that way.) I also think that there are bigger issues to focus on right now so I wouldn’t get my knickers in a twist over anyone saying it.

Makes me think of that joke on Family Guy when Brian is working as an Obama speechwriter and he says “can he say the word ‘ask’? Or is that something we want to avoid?” Lmao.

They went after Biden when he said articulate for political reasons I think. They wanted Obama to win the primary. Then it became a whole huge halabaloo. Even Obama didn’t make a big deal about it, he took Biden at face value for his intention.

My guess is if we could find old Q’s here (I tried to search) a lot of jellies didn’t care at all about context or intention at the time. If anyone is able to do the search I would be curious to check my memory.

Here’s an article from back then:
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/story?id=2838420&page=1

Biden was being complimentary, I always believed that.

@Demosthenes. Lol. Yes.

“many Democrats were offended and practically out of their minds trying to educate the public about how calling a Black person articulate is derogatory and should never be said”

Those are the people who gaslight everyone and weaponize race as a means to belittle people while attempting to make themselves all look all high and mighty. IMO doing this is worse than being racist. Those people not only don’t care, they’ll twist the misfortune of others to their advantage. You have to be on a hair trigger looking for these situations to take advantage of to believe that calling someone articulate who happens to be black is the same as saying “articulate for a black person”

White people will often call black people “Well spoken” thinking that it’s complement, not realizing it’s condescending at best and racist at worst. But I agree, context is everything.

Maybe back in 1950

I have not read the answers.

I watch Morning Joe every morning. Mika explained what she meant by saying that right after she said it. I can’t remember verbatim but what she meant by articulate is that Kamala expresses her thoughts about her policies clearly, unlike Trump. If anyone was offended, which I doubt anyone is, it’s because they only heard or read the soundbite and not the entirety of what she said.

The goal post has been moved so far, this isn’t an issue anymore.

There are bigger fish to fry.

@jonsblond The Q is really more about the people who decided that calling a Black person articulate is always offensive, and not about whether Mika was being offensive.

Some people seem to have amnesia about the conversations that went on when Biden called Obama articulate. @Caravanfan summed up well the sentiment back then White people will often call black people “Well spoken” thinking that it’s a complement, not realizing it’s condescending at best and racist at worst. That’s what we were being told. @jca2 obviously remembers it too.

It seems to me Mika explained herself because she absolutely remembers those conversations. Why else would she have to define the word? The word is not that advanced.

@Blackberry Who and when was that decided? So, now white people don’t have to adjust their vocabulary when it comes to complimenting Black people who speak beautifully or clearly? We can compliment them like we would anyone? It actually made no sense at the time of the scolding of Biden. Democrats said it was not ok to call Obama articulate, but ok to compliment Obama as an orator. So, at the time it became about that specific word. Then they went on about “sounding Black” it became a big drama.

^I understand. I feel you are making this so much more than it needs to be. I have seen no controversy over this except from you.

@jonsblond You mean no controversy this time? Or, when Biden said it?

This time

@jonsblond Yes, I see that. That’s what makes it interesting.

Some people, will find a reason to choose to be offended by anything.

I think, I see what JL is pointing out here. My belief, is that “cancel culture” liberals, have SO much material these days, but only so much time in a day.

If you wrote an editorial about it, in a published paper or whatever, THEN it would probably become an issue.

Some liberals, are as bad as Trumpers. They have to be told, what to hate…..

Agree with @jonsblond. I didn’t see the clip (nor do I care enough to go back to watch it) but it sounds like a non-issue in this case. Harris IS articulate. It has nothing to do with being black or Indian or whatever. It has to do with her being smart.

Actually, you don’t even need to answer. The topic is obviously dead now, it is no longer an issue in society I guess. That’s good. @Blackberry is the one Black voice here, and I defer to him. I trust his opinion, his own feelings on the topic, and his interaction with other Black people who might have opinions on the issue.

^Have you seen anyone get offended by what Mika said or did this question come up on your own? It appears you want there to be something here so you can call people hypocrites. When Mika said what she said it was after they shared clips of parts of a recent Trump rally. They were talking about how he doesn’t make sense. He just rambles nonsense. That’s when Mika compared Kamala to Donald and said articulate. Context is everything.

@jonsblond I was curious if people are ok with using articulate now, that’s all.

There absolutely is hypocrisy out there considering the amount of lecture Biden received and that this gaffe went unnoticed, but it’s just politics in the end.

I’m not accusing anyone on this thread of being a hypocrite, I don’t remember who was on the Q’s back then or exactly what was said, I’m talking about the general feeling at the time. There were multiple journalists who wrote about and people on MSNBC talking about, which is why Mika caught herself saying it I’m sure. She obviously knew it was supposedly taboo to say out of respect for the recognition of Black American history. That so many jellies (obviously not all) on this Q don’t remember it or were unaware isn’t a huge surprise.

This sort of thing happens about many, some stick out to me more if I was the one going against the general consensus in my “group” that I identify with, but it’s not always me, it’s sometimes other people and the blowback can be vicious depending on the topic. I’m tired of people not being able to listen or talk. At least on fluther we are pretty good at hearing people’s opinions. I’m grateful for that, but there are times not so much.

I could give examples, but not worth making my answer or the Q longer.

@Caravanfan I know you never commented about Obama. I actually gave you credit for being aware of what I was referring to regarding using the word articulate.

@JLeslie
Honey, literally everyone knows words don’t matter. We’ve been called every evil word and phrase you can think of.

We have no choice but to magically pretend it doesn’t affect us and move on.

@JLeslie Mika immediately explained and corrected herself because she knows it isn’t acceptable to say. I don’t think anyone is saying it’s acceptable? Also, she’s not well known to the public like Biden was when he said it. This is why there is no public uproar over this. It’s really a non issue.

@Blackberry I get it.

^We all get it but for some reason you want to say some of us don’t.

@jonsblond Actually no, that’s not my point. If you don’t remember or were not aware of what was happening when Obama was called articulate by Biden, then you won’t understand that back then it was unacceptable 100% period to use the word according to some very vocal people. People, who by the way, wanted Obama to win.

It was considered to be a microaggression that had no wiggle room.

Here’s the original quote from Biden: ”“I mean, you got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.”

That’s pretty racist. It wasn’t just the word “articulate” it was “clean” that’s particularly offensive and really does a lot of the work making “articulate” seem pretty offensive in context. I couldn’t care less about Brzezinski. This sounds like a tempest in a teapot.

@gorillapaws Oof. Yeah, hard to defend Biden there. That word “first” in there isn’t great either. Ironic coming from the most inarticulate president since Trump. ;)

I’m only saying with Biden’s comment came long explanations on why articulate is offensive and a microaggression. It wasn’t really framed in terms of the context at that time. I understand why clean feels like a microaggression also, the same stereotype is used on my people, on the Jewish people, not being clean.

I still believe Biden meant nothing offensive or racist, I completely accept his explanation, and I interpreted it that way even before he explained himself. Not that it matters. It matters more how it is received. I trust the group to know what they find offensive and try to respect that, whichever group it is.

@JLeslie _””“I mean, you got the first sort of mainstream Jewi who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.””

That feels equally revolting to me.

“I mean, you got the first sort of mainstream white dude who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.”

I think it has more to do with how trained people are to see things as racist.

@Blackwater_Park Yeah, we are trained to see racist things as racist.

@janbb Not saying you, but there are A LOT of things people label as racist that simply are not. The context does matter and people can’t be bothered to consider it these days.

@Blackwater_Park That is true but everyone on this thread has been saying that the context does matter.

@gorillapaws I agree it wasn’t good. It isn’t good. I basically said I can put myself in the place of a Black person, there are plenty of microaggressions against Jewish people. I also don’t assume the intention of the speaker, they might just be ignorant or unwittingly being offensive. I would need to know them. Obama himself wasn’t angry about it and asked Joe yo be his VP. Why should we be more incensed than Obama?

I have a relative by marriage who uses that sort of language, but with everyone. He thinks if someone is clean and their clothes aren’t wrinkled that they are trustworthy. It’s an eye roll for me, because it’s so ridiculous and superficial.

Back to “articulate.” When the Biden thing happened, which I am assuming you remember, was your impression from the coverage and subsequent conversation that articulate should be avoided altogether when referring to a Black person?

The types of articles I saw at the time:

’You’re so articulate’ or ‘You don’t sound black.’

Why it’s offensive: This remark seems like a compliment, but it’s offensive to a lot of black people. They usually don’t have to be that articulate for someone to say that to them, Tatum previously told CNN.

When a white person says it, it usually implies they didn’t expect to hear intelligence from a black person. The black person didn’t fit the white person’s offensive stereotype, so the white person complimented them for surprising them.

What to say: “I know you meant that as a compliment, but unfortunately that connects to a larger history of people being surprised that black people can speak so well,” suggested Rev. Carolyn Helsel, an assistant professor of homiletics (the art of preaching or writing sermons) at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary and author of “Preaching about Racism: A Guide for Faith Leaders” and “Anxious to Talk About It.”

“It’s better to make your compliment something more specific about the content of someone’s speech rather than commenting more generally on people being articulate,” she added.

The article the above is taken from is here: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/05/health/racial-microaggressions-examples-responses-wellness goes over many microaggressions and addressing them.

I also sat in on zooms more recently during BLM that sometimes touched on this.

They weren’t really saying context.

Well. Trump recently called Harris “retarded.” Why would Trump say that, if it weren’t true?...~

I think we’re flogging a dead horse at this point.

^in what context?

;D

Lol.

I’ve never “flogged” anything…