Do you think it was a mistake for Biden to give Ukraine permission to fire US made missiles into Russia today?

I am no expert on what caveats go along with sales of weapons.

In that same vain, shouldn’t we care about gun manufacturers and what the end use of those guns are in mass shootings?

I personally care more about the weapons use within the US relative to mass shootings.

@Forever_Free Perhaps it’s possible to care about both things.

Apologies for my concern for gun issues in our own country seemingly muting this topic.
Yes, it was a mistake.

@Forever_Free No apologies needed for your concern about gun issues. I am concerned about those things as well. I was merely pointing out that it is possible to be concerned about several things at once, maybe more than several.

Mistake? He’s fighting a proxy war with Russia. Wrong, dangerous, and completely fucked up? Absolutely.

If the idea is to support Ukraine’s defence in order to force a quicker and more favourable negotiated settlement, then it’s a perfectly good idea.

Biden never seemed interested in a peace deal, and the strategy seemed to be to use Ukrainians as fodder to weaken Russia for as long as possible in a drawn out war of attrition.

With Trump’s ascendency, this “plan” may well be on its way out. This change in rules for Ukraine may just be a way of giving Ukraine more diplomatic leverage in case a push for a negotiated settlement does happen after Trump’s inauguration.

I don’t think it’ll make much or any difference really. The nuclear threats are almost certainly hollow. And fuck knows what Trump will do anyway.

I think Biden should have done much more at the very beginning. I can’t help but wonder back when Russia was lining up it’s military at the border saying “we aren’t going to do anything” if Biden could not have started to move troops and tell Putin, “you have time to save face and call Americans silly and over-reacting war mongers and turn your military around.”

I think Biden should have threatened Russia within an inch of it’s life not only from the US but hopefully other allies with us. As soon as Russia broke the line we should have given Ukraine offensive weapons and whatever else to show we are not kidding.

Now, I think Trump has already started talking to Russia and also the Israel situation too.

I figure there will be an Iran hostage release like event when Trump takes office. He’ll want the credit and let the people in the war situation continue to suffer the next several weeks. Makes me sick if I am correct.

So, I think I’m ok with Biden giving permission, but I’m really not sure, because if Putin is already talking to Trump I’m not sure if it changes anything and more people die in the meantime maybe. I don’t think Putin cares at all if his countrymen die fighting. Will it cause more of an uprising in Russia against the war? Doubtful. I just heard a famous Russian ballet dancer against the war was found dead having “fallen” off a building.

If Ukraine thinks it will be helpful, I’m willing to trust them.

I think it was a mistake to have waited this long. Biden should have given the OK a year ago.

This should have happened ages ago. The same was true with the previous general restrictions on using western weapons to strike targets inside Russia.
All these piece-meal and delayed authorisations and the slow trickling in of more advanced weapon systems like the F16 or western MBTs because of the fear that it might cross one of Putin’s “red lines”, and the extremely low and slow delivery of ammunition for those weapon systems, is one of the major reasons why Ukraine is struggling so much.

I don’t think it was a mistake. The mistakes have all been Putin’s going back to his decision to invade Ukraine in the first place to his decision to use North Korean cattle fodder to advance his ambitions. Putin has already begun praising Trump for his bravery. He knows how to manipulate people if nothing else.

Analysis of what is to come

This should have happened earlier. If Ukraine falls to Russia, Putin will forcibly conscript Ukrainians to fight in Moldova, and then the next balkan state, etc. This ESCALLATES if Putin isn’t stopped in Ukraine.

I have to agree with @hat. I think it was a big mistake but we’ll see.

Yes. There is no reason to escalate this war that Ukraine cannot win. The war will have to be ended by negotiation.

I’ve been saying that Ukraine cannot stop this war if they can’t pursue it inside Russia.

@Demosthenes You mean like after Crimea? Russia is the aggressor. If we allow them to acquire territory through violence, then there’s no disincentive to further expansion. Putin has made clear his intensions to return to the hight of Russia’s historical borders.

Better late, than never…
The only mistake, is the timing.

Putin is fielding weapons, from Iran, China, North Korea, and others. He’s now using North Korean troops in the war.

Putin’s feared army, turned out to be a paper tiger.
Let’s be clear, this entire fiasco, was Putin’s fault.
Even the war going so poorly, is directly linked to his strategic failures.
He has both courted and been courted by, other anti-western regimes, for help in the war.

The Ukrainians have been spectacular. Their inventiveness, and technological prowess in the face of certain destruction, has given the world a playbook for how to defeat massive, and well equipped armies.

The US, and the rest of the world, have essentially used Ukraine for a testing grounds for all varieties of weapons systems.
The US, has been forced to change it’s entire military strategy, as a result of the heavy Russian losses.
As we would have used similar technology.
The Gods of War, everywhere, have taken notes on this conflict.
The times of carrier groups roaming the ocean uncontested, are OVER. Same for Tanks, on land.
Drone warfare, force multiplying strategies and technology, jamming technology, stealth, and of course the inevitable linking of AI, with drones, are things that are prioritized now.

The fact is, Russia is on the brink of collapse. Their economy is reeling from international sanctions. Their citizens are divided greatly over this war.
They are protesting in the streets on occasion.

The truth is this will deal the biggest blow, to Trump and Putin. As their destinies are sadly intertwined in a yet to be determined manor.
I’m sure Trump is furious. He told Putin, he’d have his back, and he can’t even keep his word to his partners.

What it will potentially do, for the Ukrainians.
It should allow them to halt most Russian advances, and ultimately give them more bargaining chips in a what was supposed to be Trump forcing them to cede territory to Russia.
Now. Putin has less to work with, and is likely highly displeased with Trump.

Putin won’t send a 20 year old boy, or someone with issues.
If Trump ends up dead, I would look at Russia. Not the dems, or whatever.

Trump will HAVE to make a big deal out of this.

I just read that Biden agreed to supply Ukraine with anti-personnel mines (Wednesday 11/20). Ugh. I wish he (Biden) would just let it rest at this point, instead of escalating tensions.

^Not everyone feels the same.

I get it @MrGrimm888. What I wrote is what I wish, which is why I wrote “I wish.”

@jca2 Do you think Putin will be satisfied if he acquires Ukraine? Why or why not?

I don’t know @gorillapaws.

I think Putin is uniquely fixated on Ukraine, yes. I think Ukraine, with its majority-Russian regions like Crimea and the Donbas, is distinct from somewhere like Estonia or even Moldova. The fear that Putin will march across Europe is exaggerated.

^European nations are mostly united, against Russia.
But.
Putin though Ukraine would roll over, and then he would have had his army already ready to move west.
Putin invaded from the northwest of The Ukraine, and that was the big convoy, stuck in the mud. The idea was that Russia would easily walk west from their western border, and combine with the largest mechanized ground force seen, since WWII.
Strategically it would make no sense, to end up with an unstoppable army sitting right at Eastern Europeans doorsteps, unless pushing further west was the objective.

Putin unquestionably, has a special love for parts of Ukraine.
But his greed, and ambitions are MUCH larger

One doesn’t build a massive ground force of tanks, artillery, for defense in this scenario.
Whom could Putin have to fear, amongst his neighbors, that would require thousands of tanks?
Tanks are made, to aid an infantry advance.
Russia is THE world’s largest nuclear weapons holder.
It doesn’t need tanks for defense, if Putin has over 5,500 nuclear weapons.

The belief that Putin will not continue to slowly pick away at his western neighbors, is just not fitting reality.
Russian, Chinese, and North Korea, are all making armies for an offensive.
It’s not a secret, that China has aspirations for the South China Sea, and Taiwan. They are building a military with America in mind.

The world has no choice, but to help beat Putin back, and ensure that his plans for heading west are not possible.
Allowing him to take parts of Ukraine, or even keep Crimea should be considered a non-starter in ANY peace negotiations.
Anything short of that, is a massive, historical plunder.

You don’t have to believe me, just wait and see.

@Demosthenes First there was Georgia & Chechnya, then there was Crimea, now Ukraine, and Moldova is likely next. Putin himself has stated that he wants to restore the empire, and he’s actually taking steps to make that happen. Why would you think his real plan is to stop at Ukraine?

How can you sign a peace agreement with the man who broke the last one? Putin is not going to stop until he has all Ukraine. He may sign peace agreements but they mean nothing to him. The only options with Putin are to fight fire with fire or to surrender.

It is not often publicized, but Putin has spoken of taking Alaska back. Also former Russian land, and talk about resources…

Ukraine should be allowed to defend themselves. And honestly, Putin has made threats to use nuclear weapons something like 23 times already, or so I read. So it’s hard to take him seriously. He has to know that if he uses nuclear weapons on Ukraine, that’s going to affect Russia too. And not the Siberian section of Russia but Moscow and other major cities. So he’d be really stupid to start something with nuclear weapons. And he can’t even handle Ukraine, so he definitely doesn’t need all of NATO against him. I know Ukraine is not part of NATO, but they would definitely have to step in because of other NATO countries that are close by who would also be very negatively impacted. Unless he’s on his deathbed and doing something desperate because he doesn’t care, he would be really stupid to do anything like that, and although I can’t stand him, he’s not stupid.

I feel it is a last ditch effort to start an all out war. That is what the powers-behind-the-throne have been pushing for. It helps their wealthy investors make money.

^It’s not unnoticed that when a dem is in office, conservatives like to call them “feckless,” when they don’t severely punish the bad actors in the world.

The double standard is REALLY old.

Trump giving another $2.7 trillion to the wealthy, is what helps wealthy investors make money Wulf.

^It does get really old. I keep pointing out the double standards and you refuse to acknowledge reality.

^The reality that a couple months ago, you were certain Biden had attempted to kill Trump so Biden could be president?

The reality that that didn’t quite age well…

@MrGrimm888 I don’t think Biden has made a single decision on his own since before he was elected POTUS. I truly believe the only one he really made was to endorse Kamala which is 100% NOT what his handlers wanted. But yeah, I believe that Biden, the Dems, and the biased media have pushed violent rhetoric to the point that they wanted Trump killed. Not to get Biden re-elected, but to eliminate the threat to the Dems since they had no really viable candidates. They were playing a game, letting Biden campaign and do the primaries. He was never going to be the candidate. So yeah, that reality did age well. If you actually could acknowledge what I say when I say things.

^So the best way to keep Trump from being a threat, was to wait until 3 months before the election, drop Biden, run the unprepared (for a campaign) Harris, AND forget to rig the election?

@MrGrimm888 I’ve been over this numerous times before. You didn’t listen then, what makes me think you would listen now?

What makes me think you’ll listen, is you listen to Trump, sooooo…....