Do you feel sorry for Luigi Mangione?

Obviously, I don’t think he did anything wrong. And while his politics appear to be incoherent, his actions seem to have brought discussions of the US’ lack of a health care system as well as some discussions about class that are usually absent. Everyone seems united and behind this guy, which is completely understandable.

Why feel sorry for him? He was sane enough to write a manifesto, plan and premediate a killing, carry it out, plan an escape successfully. What’s the mitigating circumstance for his actions? There is none.

Who appointed him to be the rescuer of angry medical patients? Not anyone I know.

Don’t make him out to be a hero. He was a guy with a grudge, who had the smarts and the means to do something about it.

This doesn’t make him a hero. It makes him a spoiled brat with a chip on his shoulder.

Feel sorry? Not too much. A little. I have known several people like this. Spectrumy, highly intelligent, from an affluent family. They have a need to make change, have radical political ideology and are willing to act. It’s a little more complicated but ultimately, they feel a little guilty for their familial wealth and seem to want to lash out like this. All that said, the insurance companies should have known that this would happen as they have been so blatantly turning to the dark side without restraint or accountability. I’m surprised it has not happened sooner. There is no excuse for what they have been doing. For profit health insurance companies should not exist IMO.

No, and I find it hypocritical of those on the left that want gun control while they simultaneously make Luigi out as a hero.

@hat You don’t think he did anything wrong? He murdered someone.

^ Actually he did do a couple of things wrong. 1. He broke with boycott McDonald’s, and 2. He was too careless and got caught.

But seriously, I can’t work up sympathy for the death of someone whose work was to deny medical care for profit.

I think the simplicity of the question and the details are a bit disingenuous. The situation is infinitely more complex than whether the alleged shooter is evil or mentally unhinged or in unbearable pain or just a dude with a cause.

@hat That’s just a horrible take. Murder is wrong. Always.

He shot someone in the back. It’s hard for me to feel sorry for him.

@Caravanfan: ”Murder is wrong. Always.”

We disagree. Sometimes killing is wrong.

@hat You have a huge problem with your ethical compass. I don’t feel sorry for Luigi. I feel sorry for you.

@Caravanfan – And I’m sure if you think “Murder is wrong. Always.”, things might proceed uncomfortably if we were to discuss some relevant topics.

But specifically related to this one, I think context is very important. The context in this case is that we have two corporate parties who have done everything in their power to maintain an evil and unnecessary industry. Besides the fact that we have for-profit health, the entire existence of the health insurance industry is unjustifiable. The tens/hundreds thousands of people who suffer and die because it exists. The people committing murder in large scale are health insurance companies, their executives, nearly every single Dem and Rep in office, etc.

In this context, getting upset that Luigi offed Thompson reveals a very strong political ideology that I do not adhere to.

@Caravanfan: ”I feel sorry for you.”

It’s important to point out that you and I most definitely share this ethical compass. I promise you.

I’m with you that for profit health insurance companies should not be a thing but, murder/killing is wrong. Full stop. Your ethical compass is quite fucked up.

@canidmajor I deliberately made it vague so people can take it in the direction they want to (as they are). Of course any feelings and opinions are welcomed and valuable.

Fair enough, @jca2, but it has sparked a simplistic insult war here, with people proclaiming absolutist moral codes with no shades of grey. On other threads I have seen people proclaim absolute moral stances on things that are fuzzy when examined, it gets a bit exasperating.

I doubt my childhood friend who lost her husband of 47 years to the “not medically necessary” statement would see it as a black and white issue that some here espouse.

Murder not black and white?

@canidmajor I just asked a question. I had no bad intentions. If I put a slant on it, then I might take some blame.

“Do you feel like Luigi Mangione is misguided”
– Only technically.

”or mentally ill,”
– Not necessarily.

“or do you feel like he’s a cold blooded killer who deserves what he gets?”
– No.

Do I feel sorry for him? Not at all. Do I think he is misguided? Yep. Do I think he is mentally ill? Possibly but not to the point where he is incompetent for his choices. There was WAY too much planning involved in this to say it is insanity. He killed someone in cold blood, he needs to face the consequences. I might give him a bit of a reduced sentence if he had the story that he was paid by Pelosi or someone to kill this guy and had the proof to back up that claim.

If there was no other person involved (no one paying him to kill this guy) then we might want to start looking at why he would think killing someone was an acceptable way to make a point or show your displeasure.

@Blackwater_Park’s post after mine illustrates exactly my point, that the one-dimensional view is simply a lazy, high horse, absolutism.

@canidmajor Murder is wrong is a pretty basic absolute to have in your moral compass. Rape is wrong is also a good one.

It was a question, directed at you. @canidmajor. This instance, it is very black and white. You’re the one clamoring otherwise. What is your take?

He’s my sexy perfect-jawline folk hero. :)

I just find the whole spectacle around this thing hilariously out-of-touch. That perp walk was ridiculous. If their attempt was to make him into more of a villain, it just made him look badass. Eric Adams and NYPD acting like they solved the case, when it was a McDonalds customer recognizing him that did it. Sure, terrorism for the guy that kills a CEO, nothing for those who drop bombs on children in the Middle East.

Word is they’re having trouble finding jury members who aren’t sympathetic to him.

Pearl-clutchers and finger-waggers are losing this one. Keep losing, I guess.

To say this is is anything other than a one dimensional issue is to say that if you feel you were wronged somehow then any action you care to take is acceptable and your feelings should be considered, no matter what your actions were.

What @Demosthenes said.

And we can save the Ethics 101 lectures about “murder = wrong” being an absolute when we’re all contributing in murder on a mass scale right now.

The reason Luigi is so loved (or at least has sympathy of large population of the US) is that we’re all living the reality of a private health insurance system. We’ve all watched our family members and friends lose everything, including loved ones.

Very few people who hold a positive view of Luigi are suggesting that killing a single CEO is a strategic and valuable move towards revolution and a solution to this problem. But many of us see the disproportionate response of a state as absurd. There is legal killing on a large scale that we’re seeing daily, and then there is this one guy who kills a killer, and we’re all supposed to be upset.

And re: the perp walk – yeah, the only people I fear in those scenes are the police state tough guys and the mayor.

@seawulf575 No shit? Scary just how many people let their moral compass go astray based on exactly this.

@hat I don’t feel sorry for the CEO but I still despise his murder. The health insurance industry has fucked me over just this year and, nearly cost one of my coworkers her life. Not killing for that. It’s still not ok.

@Blackwater_Park – But are you suggesting that we should be holding those responsible for deaths in the US responsible? Should Thompson have been charged with terrorism?

@hat Health insurance companies who deny treatment should be held responsible, yes. The individuals making those decisions to deny should be charged with manslaughter if not murder in blatant cases like we see every single day.

That does not legitimize vigilante justice.

If there’s a single-axis moral compass with pure evil on the left and pure good on the right, with perfect indifference in the middle, then killing a monster like Brian Thompson is on the left side of the line, but as close to the asymptote of neutrality as possible. It would be like going back in time and killing Hitler when he was still a little kid, still technically “wrong” to murder kids but just barely in his case.

Not only are we and people we love continuing to get worse and worse abuse, neglect, abandonment, our finances and lives destroyed and ended, etc, but the perpetrators are the health “insurance industry”, and the for-profit side of the health “care industry”, and neither those industries, nor the companies in them, are particularly assailable.

In fact, they’ve long realized the people would like to un-do their profiteering bonanzas, and they’ve been working long and hard to analyze the situation and then develop as many business practices, contracts, laws, politicians, and ideas and conversations, to try to keep that stranglehold as long and as hard as they can.

@Blackwater_Park – Then we likely agree. Let’s also bring in those that have fought to keep such a deadly system in place (Biden, etc). Charge them all.

But since that is not going to happen, you can probably imagine why this “murder” as you call it hasn’t caused the same reaction that something like a school shooting has.

@gorillapaws There is no neutral. Murder is wrong. Full stop. It troubles me that you call yourself neutral on this.

Oh, and I just saw an article that had me feeling sorry for Luigi:
Luigi Mangione Judge Married to Former Healthcare Executive

@Caravanfan I’m not neutral, I’m on the left side of the centerline. It’s wrong, I agree, but the least wrong possible while still remaining wrong.

@gorillapaws You can not say the word “but” when you are talking about murder. It’s wrong but…

No. It’s wrong. Period. NO buts.

Abortion is the one “but” I’m ok with.

^ Everyone here has a ton of “but” justifications. We all do. To pretend otherwise is silly.

@Blackwater_Park Abortion is not murder.

@Caravanfan I see a spectrum of wrongness. Killing 2 people is more wrong than killing 1 for example. Killing good people is more wrong than killing horrible, evil people. In all cases, killing is wrong, but some are even worse than others.

@gorillapaws Well, we have a fundamental disagreement here. You see it in shades of grey. I do not. Murder is bad is a solid black/white issue. Just like rape is bad. Would you say it’s less bad to rape evil women than good women?

@Caravanfan “Would you say it’s less bad to rape evil women than good women?”

No, but I would say that it’s worse to rape 2 women than 1, or to rape one woman multiple times instead of once.

@gorillapaws Still no. It’s all bad.

@Caravanfan “It’s all bad.”

We agree on this.

“Justifiable homicide” isn’t murder, either.

@Zaku But who gets to decide when it’s “justifiable”?

@janbb A jury.

@janbb That depends on the context and perspective. Or, as a legal term, the laws, evidence, judge, and jury. In this case, legally, apparently it’s going to be a judge whose wife is a former healthcare executive . . . and whatever jurors they end up selecting.

But there are other contexts where that term might apply too. In the court of public opinion . . . hundreds of millions of people feel like there has been a whole lot of death, suffering, and theft, and no satisfactory legal place to put their outrage. How many people have to die, be ripped off, and have their lives ruined, before anything changes for the better?

What Luigi could have done is gather his rich friend’s and family, and started their own insurance company, with focus on people over profits.

It’s mentally ill to pretend like this societal situation is OK.

He’s a person that pulled himself up by his bootstraps, which is what Americans love.

I feel sorry for him that he’s been charged with terrorism.

Perhaps had he known he’d be served with such a charge, he’d have put in more effort to take out more fucking insurance executives rather than just the one.

I cant condone murder, but like other activist cases, I understand his fury.

The act of murder is bad. Whether it is justified or not is another debate, but it being justified does not automatically mean murder is good.

Take self defense as an example:
Self defense is justified. But at the end of the day, a life was taken. That is still bad. Even if the life taken was a mass murderer. It is the act itself.

I do not feel either way for him. I understand and agree with his motive, I do not feel bad for the victim either. Despite my previous comments here, I am not pro-murder.

Not feeling bad ≠ agreeing with the act of murder.

Guns are the leading cause of death of children in the US and instead of talking about how easy it was for Luigi to buy and make a ghost gun, we have Democrats drooling over him. I’m disgusted with the hypocrisy. A fifteen year old just killed people in her school and Democrats think it’s okay to kill someone as long as their reason is justified. Maybe this young girl had a legitimate reason. ~

Keep in mind that one of the people drooling over Luigi Mangione also is a strong supporter of the Hamas October 7 massacre and the taking and keeping of Israeli hostages.

So that’s the mentality we’re dealing with.

The context in this instance is that we live in a country where murder is wrong and the healthcare system functions in a certain way. By virtue of our choosing to live here we acknowledge and agree to certain parameters. We can choose to accept them or put our energy into changing what we don’t like, or leave.

Disagreeing with how things work doesn’t give someone license to kill. This was an outright slaughter committed by an arrogant and selfish human being upon a defenseless human being going to work for the day. Whether or not someone agrees with insurance companies and how they operate is irrelevant and inconsequential.

@smudges No one other than immigrants strictly choose to live in the USA. There is also no explicit agreement to any parameters at all, in any country.

Political and economic systems are foisted on people, and acceptance is done coercively, not by some free choice. Leaving is not a reasonable or simple option for the vast majority of people given that nation states restrict the movement of people and largely contain them within the borders they control (where it gets to monopolise violence).

“Disagreeing with how things work doesn’t give someone license to kill.”

No, of course not. The privilege to kill with impunity is given to the very powerful, or those delegated to carry out killings on behalf of the powerful. Barack Obama’s “kill list” killed a few hundred civilians, for example. US Police regularly execute unarmed and passive civilians with no accountability, and barely any media coverage on each case (possibly because there’s too many).

“This was an outright slaughter committed by an arrogant and selfish human being upon a defenseless human being going to work for the day.”

Completely disiningenous framing. Slaughter literally means killing many people or animals. You definitively cannot slaughter one person, so spare us the emotive language. The “work” carried out by him and others like him is the real slaughter, or technically social murder. But that’s all fine, because it’s just the “way it functions”, and we need to hold vigils and light candles to change the system or something.

” Whether or not someone agrees with insurance companies and how they operate is irrelevant and inconsequential.”

The way they operate causes huge amounts of death and suffering.

@elbanditoroso “So that’s the mentality we’re dealing with.”

Conversely, some of the people sympathising with the death of CEO and clutching their pearls over his murder are cheerleaders for an ongoing genocide. I guess that’s the mentality we’re dealing with.

^^Whataboutisms don’t make it right.

@Blackwater_Park correct, but it makes him feel superior. That’s worth something.

@Caravanfan Of course abortion is. I’m not going to try to weasel around this with definitions that don’t consider a fetus a human life. Clearly, it is, but on a gradient. We are ending a human life without its consent. It took me a long time to accept the cognitive dissonance here. Abortion is often necessary, but it’s still ugly. I consider the death penalty murder, soldiers killing people from other armies murder etc, etc. Abortion is the only one I think humanity can begin to justify. It’s the only case. It’s the solitary “but.”

@Zaku ”“Justifiable homicide” isn’t murder, either.” Of course it is murder. What the hell does “justifiable homicide” even mean?

@Blackberry “He’s a person that pulled himself up by his bootstraps” No, he hid in the shadows and then shot a person he did not like in the back. He’s a self-righteous little cunt. He martyred himself for attention. His mentality is on the same spectrum as many school shooters. Just because people are aligned in their hatred for insurance companies (including me) does not mean he is some kind of hero.

@Blackwater_Park No, it’s not. A fetus can not survive on its own.

@Caravanfan We’ll agree to disagree as not to stray off topic. Convenient definitions or classifications… they don’t undo murder. They make us feel better about it.

@elbanditoroso
2 individuals isn’t a “mentality” you’re dealing with.

It’s 2 people that you heard about and means nothing when describing larger groups of people.

@Caravanfan

Another empty platitude typed from a comfortable chair.

If something devastating happened to you or your loved one, you’d be the first person to throw your nice hallmark card sayings out the window.

No. He made his choice, and the law is clear. Not that I have any sympathy for the so-called “victim” either. I doubt your hearts ache every time a drug dealer or gang banger gets whacked in a drive-by. Nor do I think most of you had any complaints about “murder”, when the seals assassinated Osama bin Laden.

@ragingloli I thought it was rather convenient bin Laden was killed. And WTH was that burial at sea thing they did with his body? I was kinda pissed. I’m not into conspiracies but that did not add up. He needed to face justice.

No, I have no sympathy for the CEO. But I still think his murder was wrong. Based on the public response, I don’t think he’ll be the last. The social contagion phenomena will guarantee more to come. French revolution vibes here. That’s not a good thing.

@Blackwater_Park
Maintaining status quo, so we don’t ruffle feathers or make rich people mad isn’t a good thing either. So I guess we’re at an impasse.

@Blackberry No, I agree with that. I don’t think murdering CEOs is particularly effective or justified. It’s counterproductive. You give the powerful an excuse to restrain any pushback. Getting very loud politically, protesting, etc., is profoundly effective. What if everyone refused to pay premiums to companies that needlessly deny benefits? We can bring those systems to their knees without bloodshed. Same idea as labor unions. Maintain guardrail integrity.

No I do not.

However, to fire @Caravanfan up, I think there are times that murder is justified.

@Blackwater_Park.
Osama needed to “face” justice? He was done dead. Who cares where they dumped the body?

Let’s just hope the justice system in America works better than the health care system

@Blackwater_Park Two different words, with different meanings:

See the legal definition:

“Homicide is defined as the taking of a person’s life, regardless of the intent or the circumstances surrounding the death. This means that a homicide is not necessarily a murder, but may be caused by an accident, an execution, or even abortion. Homicide itself is not necessarily a crime, though the circumstances that resulted in the individual’s death may raise it to a criminal level.”

https://legaldictionary.net/homicide/

Let’s look at this logically. We have laws against murder. Killing someone is murder. There is no excuse. There are levels of murder including negligent homicide. If you want to use that against healthcare companies, you have my blessing. However these all have one thing in common…they are laws. Laws are what we put in place to keep from having complete chaos in society. There are ways the laws are enforced.

If you are supporting what Luigi did, then let’s follow that logic. Where is the line? When does dispensing what you see as justice stop? Could someone decide that a doctor misdiagnosed something so they should be shot? Would fire bombing abortion clinics be wrong? If your neighbor’s dog is left out to bark all night, could you bust into their home and kill them for robbing you of a good night’s sleep?

When you start trying to justify breaking laws, you are trying to negate those laws and leaving it up to each individual to decide if and when they could be broken.

And, BTW, for all of you looking for pity for the murderer, are you now saying we don’t need gun laws? After all, he broke a number of gun laws including using it to kill someone. Should we now just do away with gun laws?

Killing the CEO was outright wrong in my opinion. Violence is never the way to change this sort of thing. I have serious problems with the US medical system, but killing someone is not the way to fix it. What next? Kill a doctor who makes a medical mistake? Kill a politician who votes in favor of something we disagree with?

I completely understand the frustration level, anxiety, and sadness people have when treated badly in medical care, I am one of those people, but murdering someone is literally insane to me. I don’t even understand how anyone would come up with that as a way for vengeance or to make change. It’s simply criminal and wrong in my opinion.

I don’t know enough about Luigi or the CEO to say whether I feel a little sorry for Luigi. Was he mentally ill and didn’t understand what he was doing? From what I’ve heard he did understand and planned a cold blooded murder. I’m shocked he didn’t commit suicide afterwards.

Did Luigi have direct experience with a claim being denied by the corporation the CEO worked for? I don’t know the background.

@Zaku You say toma’to I say tomato.

No matter his reason or excuse, he is a cold blooded killer first and foremost.

@seawulf575
Great critical thinking skills….now….let’s ask the same question to all the loop hole creators, bribers, campaign donators, the people they hire to analyze and figure the best way to make sure the cattle of a populace doesn’t find a way to sue or have any real legal way to combat their insane level of power, status, connections….

Where do you think their lines are….??? What if they’re in their own playground where they can literally change and manipulate laws…..the ones you claim are enforced…..

@seawulf575 Please use that same logical thinking on all the issues with Trump or his other cronies. This is why things were brought up against him. Period the end. You can’t have it both ways. Party lines should not be involved in criminal offences. As stated, “The law is the law.”
Let the Justice system do what they are there for. Don’t argue law down party lines.

I don’t think any one here has expressed support for what he did @seawulf575.

@Dutchess_III @hat did in his initial post. He said no wrong was done.
I agree with everything @seawulf575 said in his last post.

Ok, then I disagree with his first sentence, that he thinks they didn’t do anything wrong.
However I agree with everything else he said. I had to reread and rethink the part about “Everyone seems to be united behind the guy.” He’s partly right. Everyone is united and talking about it (good) but not all of us are are “behind” the guy.
I think we are united because of the guy, one way or another.

I agree with Seawulf too. Which line did he cross? The murder one.

Like I wrote above, I certainly didn’t ask anyone (especially Killer Mangione) to act on my behalf, no matter how unhappy I am with the health system.

That’s right @elbanditoroso.

@Blackberry That is a bit off topic of Luigi, but to your point, I’m all for it. I have said many times that things like taxes should be a flat tax. 10% on all gross income with no deductions at all. Get rid of the loop holes and make things as easy and transparent as you can. I’m a big proponent of equal treatment for all. Your position in life or society should make no difference when it comes to justice. But to keep on point, we are talking about a guy that planned out a murder and carried it through…allegedly.

@seawulf575 that’s not the current situation, though, unfortunately.

So unfortunately, when insurance companies plan and premeditate ruining lives, they run the risk of opening themselves up to these things.

Nothing happens in a vacuum, so people aren’t doing this for fun…..it’s a natural response and will continue to happen.

@Blackberry, you’d have to proove that the insurance companies plan and premeditate ruining lives to hold them accountable…but you can’t because they, themselves are in a vacuum. Right?

@Dutchess_III
Well not me, because as we’ve just discussed…..being a vigilante is apparently bad…..

So if only some sort of coalition, task force, government or private entity could do an investigation…...that’d be great….

Did you know those people exist?

Also….if you look up Vice Youtube….they just released a video with an anonymous person describing how sick insurance employers are.

Now the only question is keeping these people safe from assassination when they whistleblow…..

Do you think scared citizens hide in a vacuum? Yes or no?

I’m sure people have filed lawsuits against insurance companies, but the companies have an army of lawyers shielding them…and creating the vacuum for them.
The citizens don’t hide in the vacuum, the corrupt business do.
The problem for whistle blowers is not their safety. The problem is no one has the money to launch an effective law suit.

@Blackberry I looked it up. Is it this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJbzkwGkZ3E

Yea that’s it.

@Blackberry who wrote “If something devastating happened to you or your loved one, you’d be the first person to throw your nice hallmark card sayings out the window.”

You don’t know the first thing about me so fuck you. Something devastating did happen to me or a loved one (you don’t deserve to know the details) and I still don’t condone murder for revenge.

Hence why the rich can walk all over us. Preaching forgiveness is great for exploitation.

@Blackberry I’ve already said that if there are things wrong with the insurance company, there are acceptable ways to deal with it. Murder isn’t one of them.

@seawulf575
And evil people always want you to wait to receive justice until it’s a more convenient time.

Wait until you’re too old or dead for the justice to matter.

Don’t worry about the hangings….worry about civil rights later.

Don’t worry about the insurance companies, we’re making too much money, fix it later.

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

Another person that’ll be dead due to an insurance company.

https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/national/insurance-company-denies-covering-medication-for-condition-that-could-kill-med-student-she-says/

@seawulf575

Murder is one of the solutions, because it literally happened in reality….

@Blackberry When I’m talking about solutions, I’m not talking about breaking the law. The fact that you see that as a good option should worry all those around you. Your view is exactly the one I was talking about before. If you see murder as an option to fix things you don’t like, where is the line? What sort of things? Who decides? That thinking would put murder as no longer being a crime. What would you complain about then? That someone killed someone or something you like?

@seawulf575
Ask the native americans.

”I’ve already said that if there are things wrong with the insurance company, there are acceptable ways to deal with it.”

This sentiment is common in the US precisely because it appeals to peoples’ ethical impulses while protecting power. It’s used in many different scenarios, and it has some pretty wild mythology baked in.

1. It will imply that other, non-violent means have not yet been tried.

2. It will present the status quo as a situation that is fine that merely needs to be tweaked.

3. It will lean on a “law and order” framework.

4. It will imply that non-violent change is possible. This is important, as it is a very ideological position that flies in the face of the reality of the economic and political systems.

At every opportunity, people take the right-wing framing of flattening power dynamics. The context of these power discrepancies never enter the conversation because to do so would show their hand. Instead, we get lectures about “moral absolutes” from people who are completely ok with violating these very absolutes. In fact, they are currently violating them as they type – on a mass scale.

The right-wing wants to understand why so many people are not crying themselves to sleep because Thompson was killed. It’s really not difficult to understand. A person whose job was to kill people was killed. Maybe we can save some of the tears/anger for the victims of the system that Thompson was a part of.

@Blackberry It continuously amazes me how you go so far off topic to turn everything into every SJW talking point you can come up with. Get back onto topic. Is murder a good thing? If so (to you) then you support Luigi. If you find it to not be the actions of a sane rational human being with all the SJW values you espouse, then you do not. You cannot have it both ways. And dredging up every bizarre, off the subject thing you can think of to try and make the SJW point isn’t making you look like you are actually against murder. If that is the case, then we get back to the same questions: where is the line? What sort of things? Who decides? That thinking would put murder as no longer being a crime. What would you complain about then? That someone killed someone or something you like?

@hat Let’s look at it from the Socialist/Communist view for a moment. There are acceptable ways for the workers of the world to unite against the evil capitalists. It’s called a class action suit. You could also stage boycott efforts. You could use the power of the dollar against those same people.

My personal thought is that all those that wanted the ACA and felt it was a great thing are really the root of the problem. They were trying to get something for nothing and what they did was empower and enable the insurance companies since that is what was written into the law. That was the glaring problem with the law. And no, socialized medicine wouldn’t be any better. In fact, it would be worse. You would put all the control into a government that can’t manage to even do their jobs now.

^ So, you admit that you believe there really is no “acceptable” way of changing things.

Maybe you can just skip all of that. You accept the current system and don’t want it to change.

It is funny because your country was founded on mass murder because you did not want to pay duly owed taxes. Should have just sent the King a strongly worded letter.
You have whole swaths of “2nd amendment enthusiasts” insisting that a violent overthrow of government is necessary if it becomes tyrannical.
But I guess if it is directed against the tyrannical moneyed class, it is no longer allowed, and the pearl clutching begins.

@hat it’s possible to hate insurance CEOs, have tears for those affected, and NOT condone vigilante murder all at once.

^ Of course. But mostly on a strategic level.

I suspect that your “hate” for insurance CEOs doesn’t include an understanding of their job (and the whole industry) as murderers. If you saw Thompson as a mass murderer, I still think it’s possible to come here and lecture people against their sympathy for the death of this murderer. But it would have to come from a place that is quite different than the one presented by the right. I can’t take seriously lectures on ethics from people who continuously support the existence of a system designed to kill people.

I’m not attempting to convince you that you should be cheering for Luigi. Rather, I am trying to present an explanation for what you’re seeing.

The explosion of support for Luigi is a sign of how unpopular these violent, deadly systems are.

@seawulf575 The ACA didn’t go far enough. It didn’t correct private insurance companies from denying legitimate needs in care, it didn’t cap fees and profits. It also hands out too much of our tax dollars because of the lack of limits and gives the money to the corporate bottom line. It needs to be fixed, but the answer isn’t total free market when it comes to health care, there has to be controls at minimum. We proved that way before the ACA.

@ragingloli I understand your point, and you see me for years complaining about US healthcare, every facet of it, and wanting socialized medical care, but fighting the King is not the same as trying to change policy in a democracy or make changes in corporate policy for that matter. The murder won’t change anything is my guess, except CEO’s might have more security now.

@hat I just gave you acceptable ways to change things. But hey, since you are radical about this, let me pop the same questions to you as I put to @Blackberry: where is the line? What sort of things can you use murder to solve? Who decides? That thinking would put murder as no longer being a crime. What would you complain about then? That someone killed someone or something you like?

@ragingloli says the guy whose country tried taking on the world while discriminating against Jews and murdering them by the millions. As for us writing a strongly worded letter, we did. We also petitioned for our cause in person. Multiple times each. But the tyranny continued. So yeah, at some point we had to push back and declare our independence.

To put that argument into this current situation, Luigi could have declared independence from UnitedHealthcare anytime he wanted. He was not being forced to use them. He was free to change carriers at any time. He could even go without health insurance at any time. But if he did that the federal government would ding him for not having healthcare coverage. That would be because the government pushed the ACA down our throats.

But let me ask: would you consider it acceptable if someone in Germany got mad at the healthcare system and just decided to start murdering people he wanted, to make his point?

@seawulf575: ”I just gave you acceptable ways to change things.”

Class action lawsuit? To tear down capitalism? You would not be ok with anything resembling a real revolution in this country.

Re: your “where is the line” nonsense – you have a line, and it’s that line that I reject. Your “when is it acceptable to murder?” answer is: “When there is profit to be made.”

You support killing for all kinds of reasons – as long as it is a top-down killing. Actual resistance and self-defense is never acceptable.

No. This is a crazy question in my opinion.

@hat
1. It will imply that other, non-violent means have not yet been tried.

They most certainly have not been tried.

2. It will present the status quo as a situation that is fine that merely needs to be tweaked.

Nobody believes the status quo is fine here, it will take more than a little tweak.

3. It will lean on a “law and order” framework.

No shit, but it applies both ways. Law and order + the teeth to enforce are guardrails. Lack of appropriate guardrails are why we are in this position.

4. It will imply that non-violent change is possible. This is important, as it is a very ideological position that flies in the face of the reality of the economic and political systems.

Non-violent change is not only possible, the probability of more favorable outcomes come from nonviolent change. Violent change leads to situations that are often far worse.

@SnipSnip Some very interesting conversation has come of it.

”They most certainly have not been tried.”

Explain the “peaceful” path to eliminating the private health insurance industry or the for-profit health industry?

We have two right-wing parties in the US, and they represent corporations. Hell, even the possibility of a M4A system resulted in the Dems throwing away a generation in order to support the existence of the private health insurance industry.

Explain to me what type of “peaceful” path is available? Some kind of performative protest?

Change in the US is nearly impossible. There are two nearly-identical radically right-wing corporate parties and a propaganda system that is effective in keeping things as they are.

This whole scenario is repeated in so many other areas, we could likely swap the topic of healthcare with the US war machine, and all of the variables would be the same. Both parties have come together again and again to protect the legal murder of US citizens (or other peoples, in the case of our military/arms dealing) in service to global capital. We’re not going to vote our way out of any of this.

Again, this isn’t to say that Luigi and his confused politics is a solution. But it is clear that a population that (correctly) sees no viable path of protection from the murder-for-profit explains why they might see Luigi’s actions in a way that is far more complex than “murder = bad”.

@hat Use your imagination, there are plenty of nonviolent means. The most obvious is everyone healthy should refuse to participate. A coordinated effort to refuse to pay insurance premiums can do it in short order. Begin to negotiate direct payments to healthcare providers. Sell any health insurance-related stock. Bob’s your uncle, they’re choked out. Then get politically LOUD, demand better guardrails. The left and right are rather united currently on this because everyone is getting screwed over. All violence will do is give those in control the green light to push back harder.

@Blackwater_Park
So after decades of propaganda and actual peers telling people they’re worthless welfare monkeys with no responsibility or shame…..you now want those same struggling people to just not pay their bills?

I just really want to clarify what you’re saying…..

How long would this go on? While our credit scores are dropping and we’re receiving 50 phone calls a day…...just curious if you have a ball park number for how long we shouldn’t pay our bills.

It would happen quick. The speed depends on how many participate. They don’t have the ability to go after a mass like this. I’m also saying people negotiate to pay healthcare providers for routine things directly during this time and not use insurance. Stop paying premiums, opt out of insurance. An extreme example, yes. Still a more viable option than violence.

I’m all for a general strike, but this isn’t going to happen. People have too much to lose, which is exactly the point of keeping these systems in place.

Besides, it’s really important to point out that “peaceful” resistance is always met with a reaction from corporations and the state. Just look at the US actions in response to boycott attempts (BDS). The US implemented anti-BDS laws, restrictions on freedom of speech, and banned media to keep people consuming US-approved propaganda.

Anyway, I just want to reiterate that my explanations to people who are puzzled about the massive positive response to Luigi’s actions are descriptive – not necessarily prescriptive.

Note that it’s also important to understand that the public’s positive response to that killing of a killer ended up sparking a disproportionate state response, which has merely reinforced the public’s perception of what we’re dealing with here. From charges of terrorism to humiliating police-state perp walk to corporate media pearl-clutching. They are making it clear that they don’t want people to suddenly develop class consciousness. Keep them fighting over culture war issues and allow the ruling class to live without fear of getting gunned down.

@hat “Class action lawsuit? To tear down capitalism? ” No and you are a complete fool for trying to even imply such a thing. The conversation is about dealing with outrage about how insurance companies do business when it comes to refusing to pay for services. THAT can be dealt with via a class action lawsuit. You can sue the individual companies that you think are doing something nefarious. You are such a communist that you cannot help but make it all or nothing about capitalism. Stop being a jackass.

Meanwhile, you avoid actually addressing the questions your viewpoint bring on. What is the line? When should murder be acceptable? Who decides? By your view, murder would no longer be a crime since anyone should be able to murder whoever they feel deserves it or even if all they want to do is make a political point. So where does it end? Until you have the courage to actually address those questions, you are nothing but a blowhard coward that cannot back up his opinions.

@seawulf575: “you are such a communist that you cannot help but make it all or nothing about capitalism.”

What else could it possibly be about? Are you serious? We’re talking about the existence of an industry that can only exist in the context of a capitalist system, murders and bankrupts countless people every day. I’m not sure you even meant to type that.

@seawulf575: “Meanwhile, you avoid actually addressing the questions your viewpoint bring on. What is the line?”

You and I have been having this discussion for a decade. You should know my position. And I did answer the question. But I have to rephrase it to match reality. Let me try. Again.

In a country where murder is legal, what is your line?

I’d say that there are situations where resistance by any means is appropriate. Ethically.

@hat So you are okay with murder. Got it. What are the situations where you see it as appropriate? Who gets to decide that? You are dancing as hard as you can but you are avoiding the point entirely because it burns your arguments to the ground. Admit it.

@seawulf575: “So you are okay with murder.”

You are on record as supporting murder at a large scale. But you prefer these murderers to be protected. You’re furious that one was killed. I’m not. That’s the difference.

Again. I’m not speaking metaphorically here. @seawulf575, you literally support murder. You and I are currently murdering people, but you’re fine with that. You’ve told me that muder is completely acceptable.

I too am not opposed to killing. But the killing I support is when it’s resistance to the death machine that you support. It’s worth noting that you also currently support the starving, shooting, terrorizing, freezing to death, burning alive of the victims of an ongoing genocide that you and are funding and facilitating. So, we can put aside any notion that either of us are opposed to killing. It’s embarrassing.

@hat Sooo…you are still dithering. You cannot actually define the parameters of what you consider acceptable…when it is okay to murder, who decides that, and all the rest. Cowardly blowhard. You did take a whole lot of words and deflections avoid answering those simple questions.

It appears liberals and conservatives are aligned and comfortable with corporations institutionalising social murder.

If it’s “legal”, then it doesn’t matter how egregiously harmful it is or how much death and suffering it causes. We should just somehow reform this non-violently, even though there’s literally no fucking avenues to do so.

One man can be plausibly responsible for the death and suffering of hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, even millions, but as long as it’s legal and within normative bounds, then we should just vote or protest or something, even though that’s completely fucking useless.

Violent direct action is always unconscionable, even against the most unequivocally evil people causing maximal harm to society, because there’s no line that can be drawn or something. We just have to abide by the laws made and enforced by the same fucking psychopaths that foist this shit on everyone.

It’s like living under a mafia, but you have to abide by the mafia’s laws, because we’ve somehow agreed to them, even though we really haven’t.

@Kropotkin I’m a liberal. I don’t agree with your all encompassing statement that “liberals and conservatives are aligned and comfortable with… social murderers.”
I said way up there that I didn’t agree with shooting someone in the back.

@chyna True, he should have shot him from the front to make sure he had the right guy,

^Disgusting

Let’s be real here. If Luigi had been a black man, or Mexican, or just an old fat white guy, nobody would feel sorry for him.

@Kropotkin Okay, the same questions to you. When is it okay to murder, who makes that decision, what is the line that can’t be crossed, etc.? If you cut someone off in traffic and they decide you are a threat to everyone so they murder you, is that acceptable?

Or let’s say they steal your parking place in a crowded mall. Is it okay to shoot them then?

^ I know for a fact that you typed this out to troll someone you disagree with. You know exactly what the variables are, and know what we’re talking about. You’re an educated guy.

And yet you don’t answer the question.

^ You mean that you weren’t playing dumb here?

Honestly, I have “known” you for years, and while we’ve had our disagreements, I am not used to seeing you play this role.

You might disagree with resistance movements, direct action, etc. But you don’t need to continue the game of flattening power dynamics to pretend that someone who doesn’t cry for the death of a mass murderer isn’t a threat to someone who takes their parking spot.

Come on. This is embarrassing. You know exactly what we’re talking about, and you’re playing this game?

Note: I suspect why you’re doing this, and it may have to do with another conversation related to justice and resistance movements. But I could be wrong. Maybe you’re not really playing here. Are you?

@hat Got it. So although you didn’t answer the question I’m assuming you’re thinking it’s okay to murder someone for stealing your parking spot. When is it okay to murder someone? That’s all we are trying to establish. What red line do you draw?

And if you want to continue to obfiscate and hide behind your anarchosocialist revolution-or-nothing worldview that’s your perogative. I just don’t think I can be any clearer than this.

I never saw this radical right-wing disingenuous turn coming. Should I expect some anti-vaccination turn next?

^This isn’t right wing bs. This is not condoning vigilante murder and it has NO affiliation to either “side.” Full stop.

^ I’m 100% ok with disagreeing here. I’m specifically talking about intentionally pretending you don’t understand the opposing position. @Caravanfan and I have often disagreed, but I don’t recall him ever doing this.

And just to remind you – people aren’t crying over the death of a mass murderer, so some of the most radical right-wing (capitalist) media outlets and people here are pretending that they can’t fathom why people wouldn’t be crying themselves to sleep over the death of this killer. This is a very easy to understand situation, and there have been a couple of us who have done their best to explain that.

Rather than try to understand where people are coming from, some people have predictably completely missed the whole point, and have come here to pretend that they oppose killing, and they demand that people define what their line is.

Remember – you support the legalized systemic murder of people in the US, as well as a genocide. Yet, you demand people to define their line when they aren’t upset that someone took out a piece of the murder system.

I expect the usual suspects to come here and engage in this disingenuous nonsense. But @Caravanfan knows better. I’m calliing bs on his approach to the argument – not merely his conclusions.

@seawulf575
The answer to your question is:
When people randomly declare God decided you can kill.

In the past, it was called Manifest Destiny.

The almighty British God said it was OK.

Is that enough for you?

Yeah. It also depends on the condition of your brain, the condition of your personality. Healthy people have a much higher bar for killing someone than some wild, unmedicated, paranoid schizophrenic, and everything in between.
So the question has to be answered by each individual.

Where’s the line? @seawulf575
Due Process is a part of the law, correct?

Why are corrections officers still killing people?

Please keep in mind we have no idea how many people were killed by corrections officers before cameras…..so don’t try to act like this never happened until now, thanks.

https://www.wktv.com/news/updated-gov-hochul-directs-firing-of-14-marcy-corrections-officers-after-inmate-death/article_c2a82c74-bfca-11ef-a77d-fbf4b551448b.html

@Blackberry “When people randomly declare God decided you can kill.” Got it. So it is whenever someone wants to kill someone else and they create a reason for it. That is what you just said as your proof. You tried to make it about God, but what you did was literally say “When people randomly decide…” God is the way they try to justify it, just like poor practices was the way Luigi allegedly tried to justify killing someone.

To go that step further, let’s lay your weak assed attempt to lay it on religion aside. God gave, in the Old Testament, the 10 Commandments. #6 on that list was “You will not commit murder”. God told us not to do it. If some person decides he knows more than God (someone much like yourself), and they commit murder, they can then try to say “God told me to” as a defense. It makes no sense at all. We see the same thing from the Arabs in the Middle East all the time. They commit a whole lot of murder and atrocities against others and try to use Allah as the scapegoat.

@Blackberry You really aren’t good at this game, are you? You are now trying use a murderer (or group of them) to justify why murder is right. The article you gave shows me how jumbled up your mind is. You presented an article about 14 corrections officers that were fired for the death of an inmate. You don’t even recognize that in your frantic rush to make it about “another black man beaten down by the Man!” you are making my point perfectly. The article you gave doesn’t go into the details of the case other than 14 corrections officers supposedly beat an inmate to death. They were fired pending the investigation. So beating the inmate was against the law. Killing the inmate (murder) is against the law. Those that broke those laws are being punished by the law. You know…due process.

But what is really amazing to me is that I challenged you to tell me where your line is…when murder is acceptable and who decides it is acceptable. You gave me a case that you obviously feel it was wrong to murder. Or are you trying to tell me that if someone feels like it they should be able to murder at will and that getting punished is the part you disagree with? You make no sense at all.

The challenge is still on you because you are still trying to dodge things. The questions still remain: Where is the line on when murder should be fine? What sort of things would make it okay? Who decides those things? Would you be upset if someone else decided that murdering someone close to you was warranted? And this is all about YOUR views. Don’t try to blame God or send mixed messages because another black man got killed. It isn’t about your activism on any other topic. It is about your honest answers to those question…how YOU feel about them. You were supporting Luigi for killing so obviously you think it is okay sometimes…I’m trying to figure out what is and isn’t acceptable to you.

…..deleted

Ffs @hat. This topic isn’t about genocide. Get off your high horse soapbox.

Guns are the number one killer of children in OUR country and you don’t care who has access to them and how they use them.

@jonsblond: “This topic isn’t about genocide. Get off your high horse soapbox.”

I love how genocide went from a pretty bad thing to something to dismiss. “Sure, we’re committing genocide, but have you heard that a CEO was murdered.”

Accepting the fact that you and I are responsible for unspeakable atrocities, it’s also relevant that you support the killing of people “in this country” (as though that should be more important) by supporting a system that kills people in this country. You didn’t come here to comment on how you can understand why most people aren’t crying for the death of a killer (Thompson). You have been pretending that there is moral equivalence between what Thompson (and entire for-profit system) did and what a lone gunman did to Thompson.

And when you propose (or endorse) the idea that killing is always wrong, you had better make sure that you aren’t literally doing it yourself. That’s when your killing of tens of thousands (or more) of people (mostly children and women) over the past 15 months alone becomes extremely relevant. And support for a system that puts survival behind a paywall (“in this country”) is quite relevant.

@hat Sorry hoss, your opinions are crap. You will not answer simple questions about them so they are only so much hot air. Carry on, just realize you are looking very foolish.

Lugi has mental issues. No point in trying to corral him into normal, civilized behaviors.
If God told him to do it that’s plent enough reason to do it.

Or if Mom approached him in s dream.

Or if he believes that all the complaints about our health care system are directed to him personally, and he is the only one who can fix it.

Who the hell knows? Certainly not us.

I almost always feel sorry for a young person, who makes terrible decisions that they can never live down.
You see the world differently, as you age.
If he is not given the death penalty, I wager the day will come, where he will see this was obviously an awful mistake.
As with all youthful acts, it will still be irreversible…

I don’t call pre meditated murder a “youthful act.”

And he’s 26. Not what I consider “youthful”.

^^^ agree. I didn’t realize he that old.

^Well. I’m only 44, and I am a very different decision maker now, than when I was 26.

I suspect, if I survive another 10 years, I will consider myself wiser than now…

He IS an “adult,” and he will be charged thusly.
My nephew is about that age, I guess that may shape my opinions some.

Much of the empathetic voices here, supported pardoning Hunter too. Hunter is almost thrice Luigi’s age.
Obviously, different crimes, but both people “men” are guilty.

Luigi DID plan this murder.
He also planned on getting caught. He had left something online about it.

I heard today, that Luigi’s injury/surgery was so bad, it prevented him from being able to “be intimate with a woman anymore.”..

He seems to be a young man, who may have gotten better over time, like most people with injuries. But. For whatever reason, he took it to this level.
Now. It won’t matter what he does, this is/was his life.

A word on Super Mario Bros & cultural change

When I think of a “kid” doing stuid stuff, I think 13 to 19.

I didn’t see him referred to as a kid, I saw him referred to as a “young person” a few comments up. He is a young person. A psychologist will tell you that a man’s brain is “adolescent” until he’s in his 30s. Here’s one link but if you google it, (brain development adolescence to adulthood) there’s so much about it online.

https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/adult-brain/

And women’s are full grown by 22!

^^ That’s not a good thing.

@Dutchess_III I’m reading 25 at minimum for women.

Uhhh. Many of us women have a lot of resonsibility on our plates by then.

That’s very true, @Dutchess_III. Men, as well.

Why is that not a goid thing @Blackwater_Park?

He was an adult, but a young adult. He likely had many years in front of him barring any unfortunate accident or early onset deadly illness. He not only killed someone, but in essence he killed himself. Whether he actually dies or not, what his life could have been is basically over. Tragic.

^That’s all I’m saying…

Recent photos of him show nothing but rage and evil in his eyes.

^No such thing as evil.

I think in almost every photo I’ve seen of him, in custody, he appears overflowing with rage.

I fully believe, he would have tried to kill more people if not caught. He kept the mostly homemade firearm and suppressor, even though it barely functioned.
That doesn’t fit with this being an isolated incident. It suggests, to me, he was going to rebuild or modify the pistol and probably select another target.
I suspect that if he weren’t caught, the public reaction to his assassination of the CEO, would have made him feel like society wanted him to kill more similar people.

I know that personally, my first reaction to pain is anger.

I believe that he genuinely suffers from chronic pain. I’ve seen his x-rays, and it looks like most spinal surgeries do. Terrible.

I have seen him being handled very physically, at times by law enforcement. I can almost guarantee he isn’t getting opiods or proper pain management whilst incarcerated.

I’m pretty sure, he’s the reason he’s getting slammed around, but it’s likely just pissing him off more because of how bad it hurts.

Rage is a terrible, and destructive thing. It has consumed this young man…

@MrGrimm888 Are you surprised like me he didn’t kill himself? If his pain is that severe, he is basically in physical torture daily. Chronic pain changes a person’s personality, people who have never suffered it don’t understand it. Still, killing someone is a whole other level.

@Grimm. I agree there is no such thing as evil, but we’ve come to assiciate the term with the look in the eyes of a mentally ill person. The look came first, then the lable.
Also, bear in mind the media is going to use the worst photo to include with their report.
See Charlie Manson.

When I saw him he seemed calm and compliant. Not sure if he was drugged, he didn’t seem medicated in any sort of high or drowsy way.

LOL. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a “good” photo of Charles Manson.

Other than them being criminals, there are few correlations.

JL. It’s difficult, to kill yourself.
I imagine, he was/is suicidal. He certainly was fully aware of what he was about to do. That was why I was frankly surprised, it was a young guy.

In the video in which he dispatched the CEO, he was steady, and deliberate. He cleared multiple malfunctions of his firearm, with great ease and calmness. To those of us who know about such things, this man appeared maybe to be an assassin. A pro, hired by a competitor, or a crazy guy that had military or police training maybe.

As I said, I believe he had more targets. I guess that’s why he didn’t kill himself. It would fit with why he kept the weapon.

I assume, he was aware that if they never found the weapon, it would potentially have helped his defense greatly.

I think he wanted to get caught, likely killed by law enforcement at some point. But like I said, I think he would have tried again and kept testing his luck until he was caught or killed.

The very sad part of this, is he could have been “driven” to all of this from his pain.

I also suspect his affluent upbringing, may have given him some false confidence in his ability to elude the harshest punishment. Last I saw, he had entered a plea of “not guilty.”..

Keep in mind, the past few weeks have been likely Luigi’s first time in jail. I assume he’s in a solitary, or special area. Currently.
But I wager he’s been there long enough to see enough and endure enough, that he is probably regretting at least being caught.

His timezone is about the same as mine, I think. Wherever he is, I bet he’s staring at the ceiling, thinking that bad neck, but otherwise nice lifestyle, wasn’t so bad after all…

That is why, I am sad, that he is so young, apparently intelligent, and he will likely spend the remainder of his life, wishing he had not succumbed to his rage.

I imagine that by now, his defense team has talked him into trying to behave better, and give them something to work with.
They should go hard at this being a case, in which Luigi is actually the victim.
Rebellious and hard expressions, won’t help that.
Assuming this will go to a jury case, I think he may have a good chance of getting out of most of this. He just needs to charm a juror, or two. His team will work hard to make the jurors think about their own experiences with insurance and Healthcare companies.

I’ve seen FAR worse people, walk from FAR worse crimes.

I hope they do give him him a lifetime sentence.
It would be easy to forsee copycat crimes, in the future, and think that this case should be used to set an example.

I would LOVE to believe that insurance companies, would actually make sweeping changes (if nothing else, for self preservation.) But. I think that will be a cold day in Hell.

If you think he planned to kill more people it’s even worse to me. A cold, calculating, methodical, killer. I can’t imagine pain driving me to that. I can imagine in its extreme causing me to show up at corporate headquarters so someone pays attention to me. I have done this at doctor’s offices. In fact there is one specific time I should have and didn’t, and it is one of my biggest mistakes in my life, and I’m not exaggerating. I’m not showing up to threaten or hurt anyone, just for them to take me seriously or so they do their job.

Pain causes resignation in most people.

I understand that he wanted to make a statement, but on the other hand, the rest of his life is going to be a life of suffering – getting beaten up and possibly raped in jail, having to live under the thumb of the corrections system, not being able to eat what he wants, visit where he wants, do what he wants, have a “normal” life, all that. He did get people talking about the health insurance industry, which is good. Hopefully something positive comes from it, maybe some advocacy.

I had shingles in my right eye, for almost 3 months.
After an examination by the eye people, they said I had it on my optic nerve.

I’ve been through some pretty rough shit, but that shingles in my eye was REALLY bad.
I had to return to the hospital twice for a few weeks, and I couldn’t really see for awhile.

I’ve been in agony, but this was an incredible pain, in my eye. My body was pleading with me, to dig out the arrow or whatever was hurting SO bad.

I walked out of my PCP’s office, because she didn’t want to give me pain meds. It was her opinion, that opioids would not help the pain. I wasn’t violent or anything, I just walked out.(I’ve since spoken to her, and we’re good.)
I had an exceptionally long wait at a local ER, after I hadn’t had pain meds for a few days, and I was VERY close to just punching holes in the walls until someone would taze me, or tranquilize me. My mother had came with me, which is very rare, so she was able to keep me calm enough to eventually be seen. The ER doc, thankfully took one look at my situation and dosed me with an injectable opioid.
(I DO NOT like opioids.)
I didn’t want to take them, because of the side effects that I don’t care for.

I’m not sure what I would have done, if something didn’t ease the pain. The opioid indeed was less effective than I hoped, but it unquestionably got the point to a barely tolerable level.

I’m a transplant patient, but I have worked hard to regain some of my former strength, and so I always get a lot of the wrong attention, if I seem upset.
My years in law enforcement, don’t give me any special help in the medical field.

I know that when I was dying for 2 years, I ended up in the ER often, during the Covid era.
A LOT of people, became violent, after waiting literally over 30 hours to be seen.
I’d say a good 20% of people ended up leaving or being escorted out, because they couldn’t wait any longer…

I know one time, I was left somewhere in the hospital, for HOURS, because there was a shift change. Nobody ever responded to the nurse button.
So. I unplugged the harness to my leads (meaning IF there was an observer whom had been ignoring me, they would see my vitals and respond.
A nurse showed up, in less than 2 minutes. (Yeah, too late, if I were really coding.)
She initially fussed at me, but after I explained myself, she admitted that my strategy had worked and helped me after that. I had been laying in blood and urine, for hours…

People do respond differently, to pain. Some ball up.
Some act up…
And all areas I between…

Pain is there, to tell you something. So you can hopefully stop whatever is hurting you.

I picked up a dog once after it was hit by a car. I carried it all thr way to the emergency veterinary hospital. It was docile, the whole time, like it understood I was helping it.
I had to scoop him up just one last time to take him inside, and he latched onto my left forearm and wouldn’t let go. I pulled him out of the car, still on me, and he eventually fell off when all his weight was on my arm.
Poor dog, though I was the one hurting him suddenly…
I wasn’t mad. The injury was awful, and long story short I have a tattoo sleeve covering most of the scars.
The dog wasn’t vaccinated, and it became a really big deal, and the CDC actually got involved.
The owner wasn’t being cooperative, and as I was a LEO, they were going to put the dog down to test it for rabies…They said the only way to know (I shit you not) was to cut thr dog’s head off, and examine the brainstem.
I had a colorful exchange with a multitude of very insistent people during the process, and they kept telling me I would die if the dog were rabid.
I talked to several doctors and said “can’t you just give me thr cure or whatever, without the dog being involved?”
I done know for certain, but there was something about the cost of the procedure of treating me vs the cost of euthanizing the dog and testing it’s head…
Eventually, the owner agreed to have the dog kept in isolation to be monitored for signs of rabies, over several days (instead of us having to take it from him, and kill the dog.)
It was not risk free (everyone hated me,) but I was willing to bet my life that the dog attacked me because it was in great pain.

It’s not a humanity thing, with pain, it’s often a case of misdirected anger. An arguably primal response, and therefore much harder to control.

It takes a LOT, to rattle me into being violent. But… In those rare occasions, it is like I am not myself. Pain can force, a temporarily very negative mindset.

I suppose, it’s obviously possible, that Luigi is a psychopath, that coincidentally went off on this CEO…

But chronic, nonstop, pain, can change someone…

My mother suffers chronic pain, and she has become someone I barely recognize at times.
Gone forever, it seems, is that deep southern Belle behavior, and the patience of a deity.
Replaced, by this person who has had to endure her pain for so many years.
For many years, her pain was no match, for the woman she is.

Even stone, succumbs to the wind and rain, over time…

^^I so get this. I was in AGONY at an ER and the waiting room was almost empty. We told the triage nurse I had been released just three days before from inpatient at a different hospital from a bad accident. I still till this day believe she kept me waiting and waiting because she thought I was seeking drugs. Her seemingly purposeful actions to not help me makes me hope she suffers the same way some day with the gatekeeper not caring.

The reason I feel sure is because when I finally went to someone else suddenly I was taken back. The doctor took me seriously. Mind you I had opioids and a muscle relaxer with me to show them what I had been prescribed already.

I wrote a letter to the hospital a week late regarding how I was treated.

^It was a terrible time. I felt like I was abandoned, by the Healthcare system. I went to like 7 doctors, and I eventually researched simply stopping all of my medical care. I even called some people to get the paperwork started, and then got caught up in a bunch of suicide BS.
I JUST wanted the pain to be somewhat tolerable.
I even did my own research, and found a study on opioids and shingles, that said ⅔’s of test subjects experienced around 20%+ improvement in their symptoms. The article I copied and brought in, went on to say that the longer it hurt, the greater chance of the pain becoming permanent or blinding me.

I wasn’t going to stumble through downtown with one eye, trying to buy heroine or something. I considered drinking again, and that just made me rather die…

RIGHT NOW, it feels like someone is holding several lit cigarettes on my right side of my face. I have a fucking hole, between my eyes, where one of the lesions or whatever was, and several holes around my right eye.
ALLLLLLL those times I was hit in my head (especially bouncing) and I never got my eyes too messed up.
I do have scars on my body and arms, from knifes and bottles and stuff.
I am NOT a vain person, but I feel like if they had handled it right, I wouldn’t have the scars around that eye. They hurt SO bad, when I was sick, and I have PTSD issues so I was constantly trying to scratch/peel the sores off with my fingernails.
I just dug at my face, in agony for weeks.

I have obviously since cooled down, but I was in real trouble.
The family of my donor, probably wouldn’t appreciate me being drive so close to the brink again…
I gave the eye specialist, a terrible review, from when I was trying to handle it outpatient.

I actually looked up a pain management doctor, to see if they could help.

What I saw, after posting my review, was the same as what I saw for reviews of ALL pain management places.

Complaint, after complaint, after complaint, about people in desperate need for pain relief, and MANY people VERY offended at the notion that we are “seeking drugs.”

I KNOW, the medical industry is in a rough place with opioids, and I KNOW it’s a real problem in America.
But frankly, this epidemic of drug seekers, is the fault of the medical industry. The fact that a LOT of this started with doctors selling prescriptions to support their cocaine habits, and I guess some doctors in Canada.

I personally, would not wish my past pain, on ANYONE, ever…
I cannot think of a crime, that would justify such torture.
But. I can totally understand why people get emotional and even dangerous, when pain is involved.

We aren’t alone JL.
This whole thing, has seemingly illustrated that Americans may celebrate the deaths of those who cause them pain. As likely many of us, have had issues seeking medical treatment.

If a security guard had been confrontational in the ER, when I was in that shingles in the eye pain, you probably would have heard about me hurting a lot of people…....and then, I’d be in prison, where violent people belong…
I would take full responsibility, for my actions, but it sucks that I had to move heaven and Earth, to get someone to believe that I was in pain.

I was just made aware that ProPublica has a lot of articles about United Healthcare. I googled it and they do – lots of articles about United’s cost cutting measures and limiting mental health treatment and all kinds of stuff. I haven’t read any yet because it looks like there are a bunch.

@MrGrimm888 Have you tried Neurontin (Gabapentin) or Elavil? Elavil will likely make you extremely drowsy and I would say definitely not safe to drive and I personally don’t recommend it unless a last resort. Neurontin is prescribed regularly to people who have chronic nerve pain.

^Yeah. I was already on Gabapentin, and was switched to….I think Celebrex? If forget right this second, but that does help.
The problem, is that most doctors outside of the hospital, were of the opinion that that plus a temporary increase in steroids, was all that could be done.
They had me on injectable opioids, and oral opioids, in the hospital.
The first time they discharged me, they indicated that the eye people would take over, and would manage the shingles and the pain.
The eye doctor lady, gave me fucking eye drops that made it burn worse. And then would not return my calls, until I filed a complaint.
It was a HUGE mess, and the stress was just ridiculous.

I’ve NEVER understood the concept that yes you are deemed painful enough for high potency pain meds, while in the hospital, but when you leave with the same problem still going on they reduce or totally drop the pain meds…..
As if the act of leaving the hospital, would somehow have a physiological effect on my pain.

I ran around for 5 days after the first week in the hospital. Only to keep getting referred to other doctors.
FINALLY, I was able to be seen by a special ophthalmologist, and he took one look at me and said “you need to go to an ER.”

I was SO pissed. THAT second time, was when I almost lost it in the ER. I’m telling you, it hurt SO bad in my eye, I was about to punch holes in the walls…
And like I said, as soon as they eventually saw me, they gave me pain meds, and kept admitted me to the hospital for another week.

My mother is occasionally able to help me, but largely I have had to handle ALL of this from my DVT, to my knee surgery, to my liver transplant, to Shingles in my eye. It’s like a full-time job sometimes, just trying to make sure medications are getting refilled, and appointments are being kept.

I DID get a referral to a neurologist. I called them this past July, in a real bind, trying to get an appointment.
They said they might be able to see me in 2025…over a 6 month wait…
The way things are, you’re really lucky just to get treated at all.

During this eye thing, an ER doctor started going over my urine analysis, and was saying I seemed to be in good health.
The problem with that, was I NEVER gave them a urine sample…
When I told the ER doc, I never gave them any urine, she shrugged and I swear this is true, she said “well whomever’s urine it was, it’s fine, you’re being discharged.”..
I kept expecting this to be some prank for YouTube of something, because it got SO ridiculous…

I did speak with patient advocates. Unfortunately, the way they described my situation was that I WAS being given a LOT of help, just maybe not the help I wanted…
I just wanted to not feel like there was a fucking arrow hanging out if my eye…

^^The only way I handle the aftermath is to accept doctors are imperfect and sometimes incompetent, but while it’s happening the incredible stress is not understood by most people who haven’t been through something like that. I quickly feel like I simply won’t be helped. I tend more towards accepting death and misery than wanting to hurt others. The problem is sometimes the pain won’t kill us, it only makes us suffer.

My anxiety related to medical care is very high. Doctors ruined my life in many ways not taking care of me. Things definitely could have been done that weren’t to help me. It is beyond my comprehension how negligent and non-thinking they were during a very bad time in my life that lingers today. I wish I had had more energy and money to pursue getting better at the beginning.

Celebrex is an anti-inflammatory like Ibuprofen. Neurotin stops the transmission of pain in the nerve. Tylenol works on the nervous system, but damages the liver so they probably don’t want you to take it. Elavil also works on the brain and nervous system.

Part of the problem with narcotics/opiods is they can ultimately increase pain, but I’m all in favor of using them for acute pain short term, and long term for the elderly. The problem is you are young, and so maybe the doctors were reluctant. Especially now the country has shifted from over treating pain to doctors being more afraid to treat it.

^^ Way off-topic. Why not switch to PMs?

@janbb I think you should flag it.