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Dutchess_III's avatar

From a spiritual point of view, what defines a "soul"?

Asked by Dutchess_III (47239points) 1 month ago

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If a baby is born with two heads, and a seperation to save the fully developed one is needed, how do they make that determination at the expense of the soul of the one who is removed?
And what, exactly, defines a soul?

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61 Answers

Caravanfan's avatar

There is no such thing as a soul so you’re all good.

MakeItSo1701's avatar

^ Good thing she said from a spiritual point of view.

I think a soul is your mind. I don’t really know if I believe it either, but I think it is the very thing that makes you, you.

I used to believe your soul was an actual body part. Like in your chest.

As for that double headed baby, no clue. Maybe it has 2 souls, like its 2 heads. Some people think the soul is in the head anyways

Dutchess_III's avatar

So one head gets amputated and that’s where the soul resides? How can that be justified?

MakeItSo1701's avatar

They can’t just split the baby in half?

Dutchess_III's avatar

There are 2 heads, 1 body @MakeItSo1701

Zaku's avatar

I have experience with having, well, a self-aware consciousness that I this is what’s meant by a soul (though I think term has a Christian context I am uneasy with).

I don’t have an experience with having two heads on one body. My guess is two fully-developed heads tend to have end up with two consciousnesses . . . though how separate are they, I wonder?

I think there may likely be some overlap going on, though – I’m not at all sure that there is a one-to-one mapping between what we are spiritually, and the physical bodies we have conscious awareness of.

I guess I’m just saying it’s an interesting question that I don’t really have an answer to. It’d be interesting to see answers from scholars of Abrahamic religions, and then from scholars of Buddhism, and from Hindu sages, etc.

Blackberry's avatar

I imagine the soul would be from the sentient brain, meaning conjoined twins would be 2 (two) souls in one body.

The brain is the only thing that makes a sentient animal.

Dutchess_III's avatar

So what happens to the soul of the one who is sentient when they’re amputated?

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

The ability to make changes.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Can the second brain make changes?

MakeItSo1701's avatar

The baby soul would die.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

@Dutchess_III I don’t know. When your at 0 hp then you can no longer make changes.

Dutchess_III's avatar

What about the parents who made the decision, and the surgeons and doctors involved?

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

In Dan Browns novel “the lost symbol”, the book talks about an experiment where a person is weighed before and after death.
To check the weight of the soul.
The weighed of the person lowered by a fraction of a gram.

I don’t know if It was a legit experiment, or fiction.

I would like to know other experiments on the soul.

Strauss's avatar

The soul is the spiritual part of the human being, If you’re Christian, it is the part of you that will be saved (putting it simply). If you’re Buddhist, it’s the part of you that was/will be reincarnated.

seawulf575's avatar

The soul is that part of you that gives you life. When you die, the soul leaves the body and is returned to God. Your physical body is just so much mass until it is animated by something. I’ve never heard of someone removing a head of a two-headed baby, though to be honest I’ve never heard of a two-headed baby, much less one that lived. In the case of conjoined twins, both would have souls of their own.

MrGrimm888's avatar

A two headed baby, and the fact it comes down to a choice, galvanizes the fact that there is no such thing, as a Loving deity.

For lack of a better word, I do believe in a “soul.” Spiritually, I am certain, that “everything that breathes,” has a “soul.”

Indeed, an…...“energy,” that is not there, then is, and clearly leaves it’s vessel, in death.

The more we have studied biology, the more we have grown to understand that most animals, insects, etc, are “conscious.”
Many animals, have passed tests, that we use to gage how something understands it’s environment. Things like, can it tell it’s looking at it’s own image in a mirror.
This is typical done, by marking the animal with something visually different from their normal appearance, and if the animal tries to get it off by seeing it in the mirror in theory it understands it’s seeing it’s reflection.
EVERYTHING, in my opinion, is exponentially “smarter” than we are able to understand.

We are developing ways to get data, on how things view the world, through their own senses.

So. Here’s where it gets tricky.
A vessel (body) can maintain homeostasis, without the advanced parts of our brains.
We know this, because unfortunately people become what is referred to as “brain-dead.” Where the heart, lungs, etc, still function, but the vessel is (I believe) often empty.

Recently I read an article that was reviewing a study, where they experimented with people in multiple states of unconsciousness.
They found, that some patients, responded to certain stimulus.
Apparently, they would speak to the unconscious person, and at some point, ask them to squeeze their hand. I don’t recall the exact percentage, but something like a third of the patients, “responded.” Leading many doctors, to think maybe some of these people are still salvageable.
But I have seen a couple people, in comas, that (to me) felt like empty vessels.
My 18 year old friend, was “unplugged,” when I was 19.
I didn’t spend a LOT of time, with him in the hospital. He was in the highest level of the ICU. Visits were very short, like I got to see him, for 30 seconds.
His head was wrapped up, but I could see some of one of his closed eyes. He was….badly injured…
Looking back, I believe he had been gone. His “soul,” his energy, or whatever, had left.

In quantum physics, we are learning about particles that seem to flicker in/out of our universe. We are witnessing these things, but have little to no understanding of what’s happening.
As crazy as it seems, the most logical theory, is that we indeed are in one of possibly infinite other universes. In quantum physics, the laws of physics, are expected to be slightly different, in each universe.

Being born, or dying, could be a matter of dimensional travel.
Rather than a light turning on, then just going out…

Our “souls,” may come from another universe, and either return, or travel to the next universe, where the soul will take another physical form.

It’s important to note, there was once “no life.” At all…
The first and most extremely basic life, began almost at the same time as the planet came into existence. An arts I just read, claimed that we found very early ingredients of life 4.5 billion years ago.
However that “life” got here, it showed up, while Earth was still a volcanic Hell scape.

So a “soul,” as I think of them, must have existed before the vessels they “inhabit.”
Souls may “reproduce,” or split like cells, because no matter how many things are alive at once, there are no shortages of souls.
Should we eventually spread to Mars, and slowly through the galaxy, each “colony,” would likely eventually flourish and if we have several planets, with several billion people and other animals on each planet. There will still be enough to go around.

Another possibility, I kind of enjoy, is that we are actually ALL the same energy.
1, single “soul,” that simultaneously inhabits every living thing. In that way, our physical vessels, would be like “flowers” on a “soul tree.”
Flowers (physical vessels,) come, and are part of the whole, then when the vessel dies, they fall away, no longer connected. But the “tree” never really loses anything.

If we look at the universe. Nothing “dies,” but everything changes. Even matter that enters a black hole, is not destroyed, but adds to the mass of the black hole.
“Information,” alledgedly cannot be destroyed.
The example most given is if you wrote a book, and then destroyed it, you would theoretically be able to reassemble all of the book, including the writing, from whatever it became when it was destroyed. Obviously, with the right/hypothetical technology…

As we further explore the quantum world, we can see that there is actually no such thing as “nothing.” There is the human word “nothing,” but the concept does not exist in nature.
Even if we found absolutely nothing, that would be something…

A soul, is far more, than a battery for a vessel. I think…

It is what we really are. Not what you see, in the mirror.
What some people can see, in the eyes…I believe, I see it in people, animals etc. Other times, I “feel” it.

There was the “21 grams” experiment. But that is not accepted in the scientific community. And IS likely the result of some human error.

There are times, when I wonder if the universe itself, is “alive.”..
Perhaps, that, is the energy inside of us….......

janbb's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Did you ever read ‘Brevity is the soul of wit?”

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Fair enough, in many cases.

However. Attempting to explain something as unique, as the concept of a soul, is not a question that one who has actually considered it can answer briefly.

Not trying to fight.
But. As with anyone who calls me out, rather than contribute, may I ask your opinion on the subject? Please:)

smudges's avatar

@seawulf575 There’s actually at least one pair of conjoined twis with two heads, one body. Just thought you’d be interested…

Former TLC stars Abby and Brittany Hensel first became famous due to their rare condition as conjoined twins.

Born on March 7, 1990, in Minnesota, the Hensel sisters are dicephalic parapagus twins, meaning they have two heads but share one body.

Their story was brought to a national audience when their early life was featured on The Oprah Winfrey Show in 1996. The sisters stunned viewers with their ability to coordinate movements and their determination to lead a normal life.

In 2012, TLC aired the reality series Abby & Brittany. The show documented their experiences as they graduated from Bethel University with degrees in education, traveled through Europe and began their careers as teachers.

Abby has been maried a number of years.

https://people.com/where-are-abby-brittany-hensel-now-8768309

MrGrimm888's avatar

I think they had a little bit of torso? I don’t know really anything about the two headed baby, but I had roommates years ago, that watched their show on TLC occasionally.

It seems, like such an awful way, to be forced to live. The woman/women, are pleasant, and thoughtful. Nice.
One of their heads looks like permanently depressed, to me, and I often wondered SO many things, about like who controls what. It would really be bad, if one head, is just there…
But. I feel that even asking such questions, is rude…
Ultimately, I felt sort of ashamed for watching a couple episodes.

I’ve seen ALL kinds of photos and paintings, throughout history, of people with rare twin-ish stuff going on.

Two headed snakes, are actually far more common, than people.

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
Dutchess_III's avatar

@RedDeerGuy1….it was bogus.

@MrGrimm888….The one I referenced had the second head growing out the top of the first twin’s head. No body.
Also I wasn’t asking for the definition of a soul. The question is, for those who believe in it, does the soul reside in the brain?
If so, what does that mean? What if only an arm or a leg exists? Do they have souls?

The first time I thought of this I was about 8 and saw a Star Trek episode. It showed heads only being kept alive, by artifical means, in boxes.

The Hensel twins pose the same question. They’re 2 completely different people but sharing parts of the same body. If there was a surgery to seperate them, but one would die….what would decision makers do?

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III I didn’t get that you were looking for an answer as to whether the soul resided in the brain or not. But I would say no, that is not a good picture for it. Every cell in your body has a life cycle. They reproduce and do different functions without guidance from the brain. To me, the soul is that which makes you, you. Are you only your brain?

seawulf575's avatar

@smudges Thanks. As I said, I’d never heard of such a thing. The conjoined twins I’ve seen on shows have all been joined at part of the body, maybe sharing an organ at most.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well ya. Yeah @seawulf575. My brain determines everything about me.

So do the Hensel sisters have 1 soul or 2?

mazingerz88's avatar

Not sure if spiritual souls exist but if they do, I would assume one body with two heads would have two souls.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III So you have no body? You are only a head? Huh. How does your brain control the growth and operation of brain cells?

As for the Hensel sisters, as I said, I don’t know the case and haven’t seen them. Counting heads is not what determines souls.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Your brain controls everything @seawulf575. That’s why you can lose all 4 limbs and still be alive.
The heart and other organs are needed to keep the brain alive, but if you could medically recreate those organs to do it, that could keep you alive.
You remove the brain and every thing dies. You can’t medically recreate a brain.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

Abby Hensel got married last year.
I believe that each half of the conjoined twins has a soul.

Dutchess_III's avatar

That’s because they are two seperate people, right?

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III The brain does not control cellular growth. It does control the endocrine system which regulates the conditions of the body to encourage or deter growth, but the cells grow all on their own. That is something that happens without brain activity. Hell, when you were conceived, an ovum was fertilized and it began to grow all on its own. It developed the beginnings of a body before the brain is ever grown. How does that happen if the brain controls everything? It can’t be the mother’s brain…the baby is a different DNA match and there are no real ties between the mother’s brain the the baby. so there is something going on that is causing growth separate from the brain.

smudges's avatar

She got married in 2021 @RedDeerGuy1.

Dutchess_III's avatar

That’s basic biology SeaWulf. Amobeas multiply by cellular division and they have no brains.

It has been decided by us that the Hensel Twins have one body but two brains, and different personalities.

Here’s a quick synopsis of the girls ( women now) from Wikipedia: “Abigail Loraine Hensel and Brittany Lee Hensel (born March 7, 1990) are American conjoined twins. They are dicephalic parapagus twins (having two heads joined to one torso), and are highly symmetric for conjoined twins. Each has a heart, stomach, spine, pair of lungs, and spinal cord. Each twin controls one arm and one leg. When they were infants, learning to crawl, walk, and clap required cooperation. They can eat and write separately and simultaneously. Activities such as running, swimming, hair-brushing, playing piano or volleyball, riding a bicycle, or driving a car require coordination.”

MrGrimm888's avatar

Sorry Dutch.
I failed to derive that, from your q, or details.
The brain grows considerably more, in the womb, than any other organ. There is little to no muscle mass either, as the womb has little gravity.
All the muscles, including the diaphragm, have to start moving to develop.
The head, not just of humans, but many animals, also grows far less over a lifetime, than the rest of the body.

To try and follow the question, no, a severed appendage does not have a soul. (In my opinion.)

It’s important to note, that the brain is NOT the only place, that functions like it does.
Recent research has suggested that the spinal cord, and even possibly other major nerve centers, may also store memories, and who knows what else.
In an Octopus, it does have a “brain,” but it is vastly different from ours.
The octopus has a small “central brain,” however, they have a “mini-brain”(cluster of nerve cells,) in each of their eight “arms.”
In these animals, those “mini-brains” independently control each arm, but work in cohesion with the “central brain,” to reach common goals.
Some biologists, suggest this is nature’s 2nd attempt at creating brains.
Most animals have a single brain, like us, that controls the body.
The cephalopods mini brains, bypass the central brain, to all work independently.

If one posits that a “soul,” is in a single organ (in this case the brain,) then cephalopods, would have multiple “souls.”

I personally, do not believe that a “soul,” is attached to a specific organ. Especially in my belief that ALL creatures have this energy, yet they do not share the same anatomy.

A “soul,” IF there is anything close, is intangible. So. It would be very difficult to trace it to a specific piece of anatomy.

It is logical, to assume if there was any specific organ it would be the brain. However. There IS some cultural bias, in play.

Other cultures, might say the soul is in one’s heart. Given, this is where most of us feel emotions, this is also logical.

You have a western education, and culture. I’m NOT saying that is bad. But, it does influence your thought process.

Native Americans, thought of the soul, as a completely seperate entity. One that inhabits the body, then leaves/returns…

Obviously, some people believe in reincarnation, so the soul is constantly being reused, or finding new “hosts.” If a onetime person’s soul, ends up in an Octopus, then the brain (as we understand it,) would not be the origin. In my opinion.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Ok @MrGrimm888…if a person has no body except a torso and a head, do they have a soul?
What if that person had every organ in the torso transplanted from another animal?

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III You were asking about spiritual point of view but you seem to want to try pushing it into some all-or-nothing physical thing. Spiritually, you were given a soul when you were conceived. If you were born deformed, that doesn’t change that you have a soul. If you are born and later have a pig heart put into your body that doesn’t mean you lost your soul.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@seawulf575…these are the kind of things I think about and, when I was a practicing, born again Christian, I searched for answers in my own head. Didn’t dare to talk to my church leaders or any congregation members about it. You can’t question because it makes you a non believer, which is a very bad thing.
But the God I belived in applauded my curiosity. And He had a good sense of humor! Thank goodness!
Just trying to figure things out.
Like I said, watching that Star Trek episode as a kid launched this particular question into my head.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III I get that feeling about churches and the leaders thereof. As I got older (older than a young teenager of 13 or so), I started questioning things openly. And after I had my own family, if a church seemed too dismissive or objected to questions, I left. That isn’t a church to me. That is a cult.

Personally I have a very strange view of God and the soul. Yes, I’m a Christian, but I have questioned the nature of God. What would God be? Obviously not a man as Man does not have the power of God. But Christianity fits well with my views on things like the soul and at identifying those things that are morally good and bad for you which feeds the soul.

Dutchess_III's avatar

^^^ Me too. I still the hold the good “Christian” values. I just do it consiously and thoughtfully.

Just keep asking. BUT DON’T TALK TO @Caravanfan!!

seawulf575's avatar

^Ahh… @Caravanfan is all right. He just doesn’t think the same as I do.

smudges's avatar

^^ I wish more people felt that way! It would be a much more peaceful world.

Dutchess_III's avatar

He is awesome. Except when he talks about doctor stuff . Then he’s clueless!
He helped me refine my thoughts. I already knew the answer. With him I got the courage to look it square in the face. Sad day for me, really. It was June 27th, 2007.

Caravanfan's avatar

Appreciate you guys, thanks.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Being an actual transplant patient, I can at least offer you my point of view.
Part of the misery in waiting 2 years for a transplant, is that I contemplated death frequently.
I was very close, and woke up from a few comas.
Many ICU rooms, don’t have even a TV, because most patients are unconscious.
I was hooked up to SO much stuff, I couldn’t really move.
So. I thought.
Occasionally, I could listen to hours of content on physics, and quantum physics, honestly because I felt it would help me understand my impending death.
I would be unable to estimate how many hours, I contemplated the liver transplant.
A. I would be losing a part of myself, something I had long ago decided I wouldn’t want to live through (even a pinky finger.)
B. IF I somehow survived all of the waiting and surgery, I would have the liver of another person inside me.
(This is from a guy, who is SO happy I’m not a woman, because I couldn’t handle an animal inside me.)

I will give you another of my thoughts on the soul, that seemed too much to think about.
I’m this theory, every actual single cell, has an energy, or soul…
If you look past human identity, or ownership, and how this affects our language and even thought, we are not individuals.
We are an extremely complex combination of SO many types of cells and bacteria, and chemical reactions, and this does all have a single celled origin. Although the many pieces that make us tick are currently together, they began separately.

To answer the question of say which organ a soul would be located, one would have to dig back to the first creature to actually have that specific organ, or more accurately it’s very ancient predecessors.

At some point in evolution, this will fail, to male sense.

It’s not the liver. Although I have experienced some changes to myself, I attribute them to the DNA material in not just the solid organ I received, but perhaps from the countless blood transfusions I received as well.

The more I tried to dig to find, where in evolution a soul may have first appeared, I can’t help but have to think deeper.

Organs (for example) are made of fibers, that are made by cells, that as you keep peeling back layers you get to eventually the molecular scale, and let’s stop at the atomic level.
Here, at the atomic level, we see molecules, made of atomic interactions. There are protons/neutrons, with negatively charged electrons “orbiting” them.
We have been able to see a little smaller, but we know how molecules are formed, and how atoms interact, but we don’t know why…
I always felt “looking for God”(trying to unravel why things work,) would be most productive, by looking into the smallest things, instead of observing the possibly infinite universe (maybe countless, other universes.)
And as of this moment, most scientists will refer to atomic “behavior.”
While we can indeed observe electrons “orbiting” their nucleus, there is no current explanation for why these atomic ingredients attract one another, or what started all these atoms “spinning.”
They wouldn’t function, as molecules, without the natural way atoms react and interact with one another.
Yet even by seeing quarks and “quantum foam,” we mostly accept that “that’s how stuff works,” and we build off of that.
What I am getting at, is there ARE unknown “forces” in nature.
We still don’t understand why the universe is expanding SO rapidly, and many scientists are coming around to the idea that there is another force we are unaware of that moves things.
In as quick a summary as I can give, for that, I am suggesting that perhaps the entire universe is constructed of things that are “powered,” by a soul.
We often associate life, with consciousness, but even the building blocks of the universe, may have some “thing” driving them to “work.”
In that theory, we would ALL be part of the same “soul” or energy. All one.
This hypothetical energy, is not the property, of our bodies, but the universe itself. Dying would not be a good human feeling.
Being disconnected, from this vessel, is death. However. I believe once unconnected, we will be in our natural form.
No longer seperate, but part of the incomprehensible singular energy of the universe. “Home.”

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, mammels have the same genetic make up as us. Do each of their cells have souls?

jca2's avatar

Mammals.

jca2's avatar

You typed Mammels.

smudges's avatar

Well, mammels have the same genetic make up as us.

But we are mammals.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Yes I know @jca2. Told you I wasn’t the greatest speller and AI spell check doesn’t help.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Yes @Smudges. That’s why I asked about other mammals, and not birds or reptiles. Or plants which have a different cellular structure than animals.

smudges's avatar

But you didn’t ask about other mammals, you said they have the same genetic make up as us – as if we weren’t oh never mind smh

jca2's avatar

@Dutchess_III that’s like saying reptiles have the same genetic makeup as turtles.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Actually turtles are reptiles so….

jca2's avatar

Yes, @Dutchess_III the way humans are mammals.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Ok. Do reptiles have souls since they have cells? Do plants have souls because they have cells (that are different type of cells than animal cells)?
We are genetically 99% identical to chimpanzees. Do chimps have souls?

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Everything I have ever observed, leads me to believe as I said, every living thing does.

People thought Earth was the center of the universe, at first.
It is not, and we are just the most dominant current species.

Anatomically, we are obviously quite similar, to many mammals,
amphibians, and reptiles , as far as 4 limbs, two eyes, a single mouth, a liver, blood, etc, etc.

If one assumes that the most advanced ape, has a soul, logical would dictate that most or all other animals would as well…

Logically, what would be different?

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