Does anyone it was disrespectful for Barack Obama to call John McCain John, or do they know each other well enough its not impolite?

I didn’t think it was impolite at all. They’re senators, no one in the debate is a Prez yet.

They are both grown men, on equal footing. There is no disrespect, unless maybe she’s talking about respecting your elders?

No, i didnt think so.
Did you happen to notice that McCain didnt directly address or even really look at Obama at all throughout the whole debate?

They are fellow senators, so I think it is appropriate. I thought McCain showed a lack of respect for Obama, by never addressing him directly or even making eye contact.

correction***i meant debate sorry fluther

well she said like for senator obama to call him senator McCain but i do agree that McCain was showing disrespect by not directly addressing barack

Personal opinion. That McCain didn’t call Obama, Barack showed he wasn’t “loose” enough at the debate. He seemed to rigid and tense.

He should be attempting to apeal to all demographics, not just the over 50 crowd.

What was disrespectful was McCain not looking at Obama when talking to, or about him. He wouldn’t even say Barack.
Did anyone count how many times John McCain said the Barack Obama doesn’t understand?

I knooooow! He did beat that to death (the Obama doesn’t understand thing). I guess that is what you do when you don’t have great answers of your own.

I swear I hear Obama call McCain ‘Jim’ at one stage… Haha.

They are co-workers. I call my co-workers by their first names, heck, I even call my boss and HIS boss (the owner of the company I work for) by their first names. Personally, I saw Jim Lehrer trying desperately to get the two to interact and speak to each other, and Obama was doing a fairly good job at addressing McCain directly (after being scolded a couple times). And if that’s the debate the moderator wants to have, I think it’s disrespectful to try to turn it into an adversarial thing and refer to each other tersely and formally.

Essentially, many people have commented that McCain wouldn’t look at Obama, and I think that’s what they would call a “tell” in poker. If you’re lying about someone, it’s a lot harder to do to their face, but if you can kind of lie about them while not having to look them in the eye, it is much easier. And there were many times, and perhaps lie is too strong a word…certainly McCain’s rhetoric did not rise to the level of him saying something like “Obama wants to teach sex ed to Kindergarteners,” you know, the kind of lie he has no problem telling in an advertisement where he doesn’t have to face the target of his lies.

I think McCain has no problem with lying if he doesn’t make it personal. And that’s what McCain was doing…it was a tactic.

And yes, I did see how many times McCain said that Barack Obama (or Senator Obama) just doesn’t understand, and I think he THOUGHT that was lending him some sort of gravitas, but really he came off as a crotchety old man “scolding” the young whipper snapper. I half expected him to tell Obama to get off his lawn a few times there. If McCain had been able to see the reactions of independents though, he wouldn’t have kept up that line of fire.

Bottom line with this debate, I think they both did well, there was a whole lot more substance here than we’ve seen in the campaign, and I think from that standpoint, Obama clearly won this debate. However, McCain already put out ads that he’d won as of 8 am this morning, and he didn’t make any major gaffes, plus he did show he at least had a grasp of the issues (even if his positions were not as fully fleshed out or wise as Obama’s), and he did aggressively try to go on the attack. From that respect, these things are expectations games, and after the week McCain has had, which I have been suspicious might have been manufactured (i.e. McCain intentionally came off like a fool this week so that he’d set the bar unbelievably low).

Long and short on this one, I’d say on a 10 point scale, Obama did about an 8, McCain did about a 7 (I take away a point for his repeated attempts to distort Obama’s record and Obama’s deft rebuttal of most of those attacks), but I think given the expectations that McCain set, Obama really needed to beat McCain by 3 points to “win”, and he only beat him by 1, ergo, the impression is probably going to be pretty firm that McCain either “won” or at least held his own.

@ yannick- I think Obama was addressing Jim Leher.

nice dalepetrie nice! my new favorite word is “whipper snapper”

thank you…now get off my damn lawn!

Whipper snapper? You just showed your age. :)

Just to clarify, I was trying to paint a mental picture of McCain, who would think of Obama as a whipper snapper. I’m not yet old enough to call anyone a whipper snapper. I just think it fits with the demeanor McCain put forth tonight.

And was anyone at all concerned tonight when Jim Lehrer brought up Eisenhower that John McCain was going to say, “Senator Obama, I knew Dwight Eisenhower, I worked with Dwight Eisenhower….Dwight Eisenhower was a friend of mine. Senator, you’re no Dwight Eisenhower.”

Of course referencing something from the 1988 Vice Presidential debate doesn’t exactly disprove the accusation that I’m old now does it. Aw hell, never mind.

If you know the word, you are a little aged, don’t you think? But what am I talking about? I use the phrase willy-nilly all the time.

@dale it doesn’t show your age, but our ability to remember a GREAT round in a debate.

Sadly, before the debate I mentioned to my family that no debate is as food as a Clinton debate (that guy has MAJOR debate skills—they outweigh his speaking skills, even)

This debate had no memorable rounds that will stand out in my head 4yrs from now.

I hope the next one is juicier.

I have to say I was torn. I too didn’t find anything particularly memorable and this one will definitely be relegated to the scrap heap of history, without so much as a passing mention 4 years from now (the only notable thing will probably be that it was the debate that almost didn’t happen). But though I was a little unmoved by the debate from an excitement perspective, in some ways I was glad that this was the case. Not every memorable debate moment has the best results.

For example, I think Reagan’s economic policies are to blame for much of the troubles we’re in today, even though he is hailed as a demi-God by conservatives and even respected by a fair number of Democrats to this day. I personally feel our nation would have been FAR better off if Mondale had won in 1984 (of course, living in Minnesota, the only state he actually managed to carry, that’s probably no surprise). Anyway, one thing largely credited for being a game changer in the Reagan/Mondale debates was how expertly Reagan diffused the age issue. He was 73 years old (and history would show he was already getting senile), but it had become a serious concern to a lot of voters, and when asked about the “age” issue, Reagan replied that he wouldn’t hold his opponent’s youth and inexperience against him. BAM, diffused the issue with one hand and bitchslapped his opponent with the other. That line alone might have helped Reagan win as heavily as he did.

Another example in 1988, in the Bush/Dukakis debates, Dukakis was asked by moderator Bernard Shaw about his position on the death penalty, wherein he inquired whether Dukakis would have the same answer were his own wife raped and murdered. Rather than speak like a real person would, and acknowledge that he would feel visceral anger, but would seek for our government to hold higher aspirations than mankind, he pulled out his talking point about why the practice was morally objectionable. I guarantee you that cost him the election, and I though I actually DO favor the death penalty, I think overall we’d be FAR better off if Bush I never took office (we would probably not have Bush II if Bush I had failed).

So exciting debates make for great theater, but it’s not necessarily the person with the best ideas or the best grasp of the issue that knocks one out of the park, and we’ve got this huge pool of undecided voters who really don’t go into the polling booth with a checklist of issues, but instead with an internal gut instinct over which candidate is more likeable.

In other words, I’d have loved to have seen Obama get off a zinger, but if McCain had gotten one off, I’d be really worried.

One of my friends was annoyed by it. I was more annoyed by McCain’s smugness, and by the way he kept implying that any disagreement must be because of a misunderstanding on Obama’s part.

edit: scratch “implying”. He said it outright several times.

@AC: Yeah you’re right, it just looked like he was talking to McCain. But as you said, at least he was looking at him.

nope….

yes it was dissrespectful. Hillary got sympathy when Obama called her by first name..Just like in college you call professors professor. anyone who studies politcis knows that it is a sign of dissrespect to not refer to a senator as senator. Obama has a big ego..http://www.narbosa.com/2008/09/obama-did-disrespect-mccain-at-debate.html

@ dvlhorse – Forgive me if I take a source with the phrase “Black Jesus ain’t stupid.” in the article as less than credible.

It was not disrespectful at all. They are co-workers and peers. The rules of politeness are that you can call peers by their first name and those younger than you by their first names. It would have been rude to call GWB “George” but that wasn’t going on.

Obama went between calling him “John” and “Senator”, but remember—“Senator” is basically the same as calling someone “Mister” instead of “Mr. So and so”. So either you say “Senator McCain” which is completely appropriate, or “John” which —- as they are peers, is also appropriate.

dvlhorse -

yes, if you were a student in college and your professor was Professor Bob Johnson, you would call him Professor Johnson, not “Bob”. But if you were Professor Tom Stevens, would you call him “Professor Johnson” or would you call him “Bob”. And would you expect him to call you “Professor Stevens” or would you expect him to call you “Tom”. I personally would call him Bob and expect him to call me Tom, because we would be co-workers. Your argument is ridiculous.

of course, having read the patently racist link you provided (ahem, “Black Jesus”?), it’s clear where you get your news…right wing crazy sites. I love how people pull out that “Hillary got sympathy when Obama called her by her first name.” I heard that before from women who said it was “sexist”. Bullshit. Look at her rally signs. Look at her website. Look at her bumper stickers. What the fuck do they say, genius? Bingo, every single one of them says “Hillary”, because she flippin’ referred to HERSELF as Hillary. Typical hysterical self serving Republican bullshit…anything that fits the prejudiced notion you already have that makes you feel like you’re not a racist piece of human excrement will be pulled out to “prove” your weak and stupid point.

As others have said, Senator Obama and Senator McCain are colleagues. Therefore, either could have called the other “Senator” or by the first name alone. It was NOT disrespectful at all for Senator Obama to refer to Senator McCain as John. Now if he used “Johnny” that would be a different story.

The fact that McCain refused to look directly at Obama IS rude, and may indicate his level of personal dislike, a degree of nervousness, or even, God forbid, a touch of racism.

As a speaker, I must say that Obama is much more polished than McCain and seemed obviously cool, collected and at ease on stage. McCain did quite a bit of rambling and wasn’t as together as his honorable opponent (which is another way the two could have referred to each other).

Most political critics seem to feel that Obama won this one, although some pundits differ on by how much. I have already been won over by Obama so I would have to agree that this, while not a memorable debate, was Obama’s.

Often in politics, it’s actually rather important to call others on or below your level by their first names. For example, whenever a letter comes out of our office, whoever types it will type “Dear Mr. Doe.” When the commissioner then signs the letter, she will cross out Mr. Doe and scribble in “John.” This is the standard at many levels of politics. I don’t have any experience working out of a federal candidate’s public office (as opposed to a campaign office), but I would think this practice would remain the norm.

I think that McCain was intentionally trying to give the impression of Obama as a Senator and not allow anyone to think more of him than that.

Since this was a foreign policy debates, in a campaign that McCain said would be run as a “disagreement between friends” I think the inability to communicate with Obama on a personal level was a definite minus.

To me, by talking directly to “John”, Obama was showing himself to be more Presidential because he is able to speak to an opponent as a peer. They have been 2 of 50 “coworkers” for years now and should be able to speak to each other with familiarity.

I agree with dale that neither one of them came out looking like they “won” the debate. However, since this debate about foreign policy was supposed to be McCain’s clear advantage, that gives me a lot of hope for the next round.

Even when the talk switched solely to foreign policy, Obama showed a command of the issues and comments thrown at him and was able to deflect them easily enough with facts that McCain rarely had a way to argue against.

A better question is that since McCain’s failed plan to move the Presidential Debate to October 2 didn’t pan out, what excuse is Palin going to come up with that will enable her to cancel in St. Louis?

AstroChuck, I still harbor some fears (and I think last night makes it seem all the more plausible) that Palin isn’t the blithering idiot she put forth in front of Charlie Gibson and Katie Couric. I fear deeply that the whole reason she hasn’t done a press conference isn’t because she “couldn’t” handle it, but precisely because she could. I mean, it doesn’t fit, the woman was runner up in the Miss Alaska contest AND was a TV sportscaster, yet she doesn’t seem to be able to master a q&a. Seems mighty suspicious to me.

I’m gravely concerned that she actually has a very strong grasp of the ticket’s platform, has a very strong way to communicate it, is probably a surprisingly good debater, and because Biden isn’t expecting anything of her, it will make it both easier, and more shocking for her not only to hold her own in the debate, but to also get off a few good insults.

I think what we saw with McCain last night is that he spent the past week trying to come off like he was running scared, like he was afraid to debate Obama because he was sure he’d lose, and I think he also was trying to make it seem like he had absolutely no grasp whatsoever or our economic crisis (hell, the 5 million comment and the not remembering how many homes he has could all be part of the plan). So, when he actually didn’t fall flat on his face last night, that was actually a better performance than many expected. And he TRIED, repeatedly to mischaracterize Obama’s positions and to hurl insults at him, but Obama was just too adept at setting the record straight.

Just look at how many times McCain said that Obama just doesn’t get it, like he was scolding him. If those punches had resonated, they could have been a knockout blow, and instead of us hearing that most people thought Obama won, but didn’t knock it out of the park, we’d be hearing that McCain had not only won, but had ALSO knocked it out of the park. I don’t think the best case scenario happened for McCain, and that’s because unlike many Democrats who have preceeded Obama, Obama knows how to fight back with the truth rather than let the lies stick to him. But I would be willing to bet that had McCain not pulled his whole “let’s cancel the debate”, we’d be hearing that Obama had slain McCain in that debate. I think he set expectations incredibly low, and I fear greatly that he’s spent the last month setting expectations below zero for Sarah Palin.

I could be wrong, I hope I am, because I would love nothing more than the VP debate to be the death knell for the McCain campaign and see Palin just knocked completely off her game and come off looking like Miss Teen USA South Carolina 2007, as she did in her interview with Katie Couric.

@dalepetrie – check out the beginning of that Katie Couric interview where Katie pulls out a gotcha moment.

My take on Palin is that she doesn’t know how to BS when she doesn’t have the answer. Her success in Alaska was primarily based on her knowledge of Alaskan issues, but otherwise she has been going to snowmobile races and taking care of her kids, not paying especially close attention to national issues.

We saw at the RNC that she is able to speak well when she has a script, but these few interviews show that she just doesn’t have a grasp of the issues. The VP debate will be about both foreign and domestic issues so she has not been seen by the media because she is probably sitting with tutors for 8–10 hours a day as they cram her full of information.

She will have enough a of a grasp of the issues to handle the soft ball questions and she will for sure have a bunch of barbs up her sleeve to throw out, but I think Biden will come out showing a much better command of the issues, as long as he can remember not to get too relaxed.

fireside, that’s what I’m hoping. The proof will come on Thursday. If she can come off without sounding stupid, or like she’s just pulling out talking points, I think that will be all the proof I need to know that she could have done better in the Couric interview, but wanted to come off as stupid to set expectations low. If she does pull one of these non-sequiters, I think we’ve all been justified in thinking she’s a joke and there’s a reason McCain’s been hiding her.

@dalepetrie

I’ve never seen Palin doing a debate live but do recall seeing some video clips of her debating other candidates when she was running for governor. They were probably on television. I don’t recall being either impressed or unimpressed, so she probably held her own. But, remember, she was talking about Alaska and Alaskan issues. She grew up here and has shown an interest in politics, so that’s natural.

I do think she’d probably given some thought to going national eventually but I honestly don’t think she’s got what it takes to pull off an “October Surprise” and blow Joe Biden out of the water. If the topic were Alaska, sure, but I just don’t think she’s got the breadth of knowledge and experience that is needed to hold her own in a debate against someone like Joe Biden, let alone serve as Vice President. In a weird way, even tho’ I’ve declared myself for Obama, I hope she does well cos, quite frankly, sigh, I’m embarrassed by her lack of ability to talk about anything non-Alaskan. Honest, folks, not all Alaskans are so clueless.

Anyway, don’t get me wrong, she’s not dumb, but she’s been tossed into something she wasn’t ready for and I blame the McCain team for that, even if I do so wish Sarah had blinked and said ‘no’, so she shares in the blame. I fear that her career may have been destroyed in all this cos she’s already under investigation up here for possible abuse of power (“TrooperGate,” see www.adn.com or http://www.andrewhalcro.com/), a case that just gets weirder and weirder, and ol’ time Alaskans aren’t taking kindly to the McCain team coming in and trying to tell ‘em how to do things. Alaskans are an independent sort and don’t take well to “outsiders”, which translates to anyone not living in Alaska, trying to boss ‘em around. Ha

The only thing that makes me worried about VP Debate is the fact that Biden talks before thinking. He might come out as rude or hurts some feeling. Especially because he faces a woman.

http://www.ktoo.org/gavel/videogavel.cfm?video=10367&request=C6497DB02F8E8B2EEBD6187CB905DEAA
Just found this link on Andrew Halcro’s website. It’s of one of the debates when Palin was running for governor against Halcro, who ran as an independent, and Dem. Tony Knowles. Long commerical at the start, so the debate doesn’t kick in for almost two minutes. I haven’t watched the clip yet, so will be interested to see if your comments match my reactions when I get a chance to watch later today.

AlaskaTundrea – Again, I hope you’re right. My only comment as to why I’ll still “believe it when I see it” re the October surprise that she’s competent is this. She will have had from August 29 to October 2 to be given intensive training. I think if I were given a crash course over a month’s time, I could debate Biden.

I don’t know, it’s like cramming for a test in a way—sometimes when it comes to the test, you totally blank on everything because you’ve just been cramming and not actually learning.

She’s toast.

Bonus Question, I like that we think opposite on this one——yet, alike. Huh?

I think Biden is a ‘quick’ on his feet speaker ready and willing to discuss his viewpoint and share why everyone should think/vote like him. As for Palin, she needs to much time to think before she speaks, and will once again come off as a bumbling idiot.

(and, I’m pretty sure she’s not stupid, just has difficulty expressing herself in a quick format)

AstroChuck, I concur!!!!

I think it was disprespectful. If they were talking privately then no disrespect but since it was in front of the whole world I tend to feel it was. I doubt though that Senator Obama meant to be disrespectful. I also think it was disrespectful of “John” to not look at Obama during the debate. He may have had his reasons though. Could have been nerves?

edit: I just thought of a good analogy to why I thought it was disrespectful. I agree when co-workers are on the same level it is weird to call them Mrs., Mr., Dr., etc. but when you address let’s say a teacher in front of her peers (students) you will typically call them Mrs. Likewise if you were to talk to a doctor in front of their patient you out of respect typically call them doctor so and so. Just wanted to better explain my thought process.

Is it disrespectful for Sarah Palin to refer to Senator Clinton as Hillary?

Go to her first appearance on the national stage, about 1:00 into this video

Personally, I would say no to both, but if you get offended by one, then why not the other?
Wouldn’t speaking familiarly about someone you don’t even know be more disrespectful?

Absolutely. I wasn’t saying it was disrespectful because he was a democrat. Although it could be argued that she was reading from a script, Senator Obama was not. Still I would consider it disrespectful.

Oh and I’m not offended by either one. I could really care less what they call each other.

You could?

Haha! Nice catch, I suppose I couldn’t. Damn.

Score one for lefteh..

Speaking of yourself in the third person costs you a point, so you’re even.

Lefteh doesn’t know what you’re talking about.

critter1982 – maybe if we were talking about 2 high school teachers you’d have a point, but in college my professors referred to each other by their first names all the time…and I’ve been out of college for 15 years. I assure you Senators refer to each other by their first names ALL the time in public. It’s a perfect example of trying to parse any word into something that serves your already made up mind…if you’re supporting McCain no matter what, you will agree that it was disrespectful…anyone else will think “nonsense”.

@dale: I respect your opinion but I disagree. When my professors would talk to each other in front of us they would either say professor or doctor, unless of course our professors told us to call them by their first name. In the hospital doctors will talk to other doctors and use the word doctor in front of their patients. And guess what I support McCain and I agree that what Palin said was disrespectful as well. Stop turning this into a democrat vs. republican issue. It’s not.

In my experience what you are saying just isn’t the case, though. And I do tend to think that this issue would be a non starter with you if you were a Dem.

@dale: Like I previously said, Obama could call McCain an Old HillBilly Cracker and I could care less. The question at the top asked whether I felt it was disrespectful and based on my experience I do. In the scheme of things it’s obviously not this that will sway my opinion of Senator Obama. It is a non issue for me and likely most other conservatives.

I guess this video settles this question.
Here, John calls Barack and Hillary by their first names.

Just because John called Barack and Hillary by their first names doesn’t make it any more or less polite.

It’s more polite than “that one”.

Does anybody really believe this is an issue? Please.

@tiny: Touche. LOL.

@Astro: I don’t think anybody thinks this is an issue.

critter – I think we all have our own definitions of polite, but I think what we’ve got here is a case of customary. In my opinion, if it’s customary it can’t be impolite, but perhaps in your opinion impolite is impolite whether or not it is customary.