General Question

skfinkel's avatar

What do you think of Palin whipping up hate against Obama at her rallies?

Asked by skfinkel (13537points) October 11th, 2008

What are we to do?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

51 Answers

augustlan's avatar

It is low and awful. I think McCain is now trying to calm down the ignorant and hateful screamers.

SoapChef's avatar

It is one of the most frightening and disgusting things I have seen in a long time. What are we to do? Just keep reminding people that it is a desperate and pathetic attempt to take the focus off the issues.

laureth's avatar

It’s an election. It’s icky, it’s crappy, and it’s exactly the thing politicians do. Business as usual.

googlybear's avatar

It’s always reassuring that the mob mentality from times like the bygone Salem witch trials is still around despite our seeming ability to get information from hundreds of news sources on the issues we still have people out there that call Obama a “terrorist” and a “traitor”....

CameraObscura's avatar

Yawn.

Good thing we never see any Palin or McCain hate here.

SoapChef's avatar

@ laureth Is this biz as usual? I just don’t remember the venomous, violent and ignorant displays in past elections.

dalepetrie's avatar

Well, I think it’s disgusting and wrong. I think the whole Ayers attack is meritless in the first place, has already been played out in the second place, and does nothing for their poll numbers in the third place. But the big problem in my view is that this kind of thing just makes the base angry, particularly when, as Dan Rather would say, “their chances are slim and none, and slim just left town.” In my experience, and I want to caution that I’m not making blanket statements like “all Republicans” but nonetheless there is a fairly sizable element within the Republican base which is motivated and energized by anger (see the 2002 election or negative advertising or the 2008 Republican National Convention, particularly day 3). Some can get just downright nasty, and I’ve seen such shameful examples that I’d be ashamed to count myself among their ranks (not that I never feel shame to be counted among the ranks of the liberals, it’s just often for the opposite reason…i.e. they don’t get aggressive enough at times). Anyway, to oversimplify it, it’s bad to piss off a bunch of hotheads.

Now they’ve got people saying “kill him” and “off with his head” about Obama…business as usual is smear politics, not death threats.

The only positive thing I can see is that for once in this campaign, I’ve seen McCain do something I can actually respect. The fact that he actually said that you don’t have to be scared of Obama as President is 1) honorable, and 2) pretty much an admission he’s gonna lose! I just hope some angry redneck doesn’t try to take Obama out because of this. Again, never a good idea to piss off a hothead.

SoapChef's avatar

I agree dale. The fact that McCain took control and denounced the hate was a bright spot in this otherwise dark and dirty campaign. I am scared silly that some wack job is going to attempt to assassinate Obama if he wins.

syz's avatar

It’s a disgrace. If she instantly, emphatically, and definitively put a stop to it at her rallies, I would respect her. As it is, she’s tolerating and promoting the lowest possible form of expression – racism.

squirbel's avatar

@cameraobscura: What else would you expect? If you do low things, you get less love from people who already don’t like you. this comment is about McPain and Pain.

Although I do respect McCain a whole lot more for correcting his crowd when they made hateful remarks.

cheebdragon's avatar

Were you expecting them to hold hands and skip under rainbows?

SoapChef's avatar

@ cheeb
No, but you don’t see this kind of hateful message coming out of the Obama campaign.

dalepetrie's avatar

What I would LIKE to see in Presidential campaigns is a respectful disagreement where they discuss their positions and differences on the issues. What I EXPECT to see is baseless personality attacks rather than substantive policy disagreements. What I don’t EVER want to see is the inciting of violence and hatred. As much as I dislike George Bush, the closest I’ve ever come to “off with his head” is my suggestion that he appears to have done things which meet the definition of treason, and I would be thrilled to see an investigation, after which if he WAS found guilty, he should be hanged. But I at least think innocent until proven guilty, and I’m not about to shout “KILL HIM” at the next Obama rally.

SuperMouse's avatar

I think Palin trying to whip up a frenzy has backfired on the campaign, a “karmic ass bite” if you will.

squirbel's avatar

More like chomping.

OM NOM NOM

dithibodeaux's avatar

Can I ask a very simple question to all you Obama supporters?
Do you know people with the riff-raft likes of some of Obama’s past associations? Isn’t it just a little too weird the number of these? Ayers, Wright, Rezko, and the list goes on.
Are we really to not give this a second thought?

dalepetrie's avatar

dithibodeaux -

None of this concerns me in the slightest. Bill Ayers is someone who committed his atrocious acts when Obama was 8. He since reformed and is a respected person in the education community in Chicago. And indeed, McCain has his own ex-radical in his own closet:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122350949805717257.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Reverend Wright is a non issue. He’s a Navy Veteran whom no one who knows him would ever accuse him of being anti-American. His goddamn America was him saying that for the sins of our own past transgressions, by God’s standards, America would be damned. If you look at these sermons in context as I did at the time, you’d realize, he rails against social injustice, which is the role of a Pastor. And I’m not even a religious person, but I 100% totally and completely agree with every single thing Wright said when taken in context. I encourage you to look at the whole picture and not just the 10 to 30 second loops that were played over and over and over again on Faux News. And if you’re going to hold someone’s pastor against them, perhaps you want to look at that video of Palin’s pastor inoculating her against witchcraft

Tony Rezko was a friend of Obama’s who committed fraud, but there is not one single, solitary shred of evidence to suggest that Obama had ANYTHING to do with Rezko’s fraudulent activities. And the land Obama bought from Rezko was bought at market prices…he never took any improper favors or anything of that nature. Obama has conducted himself honorably and without fault, THAT is what’s important to me. As for an association with someone who committed fraud, look into Keating 5. Charles Keating defrauded S&L customers of billions, and the Senate concluded that McCain had acted inappropriately…nothing of this nature has EVER happened to Obama.

The second tier argument as to why this is just dirty, personality politics is it’s guilt by association…no different than McCarthyism. I don’t judge a man by the actions of those he’s met, known or worked with….by that standard, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF US would pass muster. Are you going to tell my you’d want to be judged by the actions of your co-workers? In politics, a person comes across a lot of people. Not McCain, not Palin, not Biden, not a single Senator or Congressperson, not you and not me…NO ONE would pass this level of scrutiny. I’d be far more concerned if there were not a single bad person Obama had ever met, spent time with or worked with who turned out to be dirty in some way. It’s the way of the world.

I don’t think the “number” of these is weird, because the only strategy Republicans seem to have is digging up any association they can. If they were to come up with one substantive argument against Obama (and ACORN is not it either…for one thing, registration fraud is not voter fraud…I highly doubt the Dallas Cowboys are going to show up to vote in Nevada, and for another, it’s the individuals who work for this organization who are trying to meet quotas who falsify these…ACORN does it’s best to filter them out, and orders CERTAINLY don’t come from Obama), then I’d consider it. But there have been many substantive examples of actual behavior by the candidates themselves on which I can judge them.

And I judge a man by the content of his character…the best way to do that is to look at a man’s actions and not his words (and certainly not his associations). And Obama’s actions practically scream integrity and greater good to me. He after all could have, after graduating Columbia, taken a 6 figure job on Wall Street. Instead, he took a $13k a year job working with poor people on the streets of Chicago.

If these things concern you, fine, but realize they are cooked up distractions which were designed to fool the uncritical.

dithibodeaux's avatar

I’m not one of these people that only look at brief clips of these rants (like the one you described with Wright). I have done hours and hours of research about the political arena going on right now.

I completely disagree with your comment about Ayers that “He since reformed and is a respected person in the education community in Chicago”. He certainly hasn’t repented in his comments just as late as 2001 and he has very radical views.

And I also judge a man by his character. And quite frankly, I have to question the character of a person that surrounds themselves with persons of shady behavior. And if you can say that “Ayers” is not a shady character, I can’t imagine what you would actually call “Shady”.

dalepetrie's avatar

I didn’t say Ayers is not a shady character. But he does NOW do charitable work, and I can’t impugn that. He IS respected in the Chicago community, that is no secret. His past is his past and is unforgivable. But what he said in 2001 was that he felt they did not go far enough. And I think when you look at what came out of the 60s, it wasn’t really social justice. But he’s not out bombing things now, and he has never to my knowledge espoused hurting people…from what I’ve read, he espoused property destruction. That’s not exactly what the right is portraying. Doesn’t make what he did right, by any means, but it also doesn’t mean that he’s still a radical terrorist…that’s an extreme mischaracterization. And even if it wasn’t Obama is not Ayers or vice versa, they haven’t spent a ton of time together, and what they HAVE worked on together is for the greater good. And bottom line, if you were involved in community organizing in Chicago, you would have worked with Ayers. Doesn’t concern me, sorry, I think its bullshit.

dithibodeaux's avatar

Well let’s agree to disagree… What’s more important to me is not necessarily as important to you or others.

Thanks for the healthy debate.

AlaskaTundrea's avatar

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/9/8831/72947/178/624254
This is the thing that gets me about the Ayers charges: If Obama is guilty of some crime for knowing him, so is everyone else on this list, including one very huge donor to the McCain campaign.

augustlan's avatar

@AlaskaTundrea: That was an excellent link…you should post it in all the political discussions we have going on here!

dithibodeaux's avatar

@alaskaTundrea and @augustian,
I wouldn’t be so fast to post links to the “dailykos.com”. Unless we are going to admit that this social networking group is catering to “liberals”.

See the comments from Wikipedia below:

”“Daily Kos (IPA: /koʊs/) is an American political blog, publishing news and opinion from a LIBERAL or progressive point of view. It functions as a discussion forum and group blog for a variety of netroots activists, whose efforts are primarily directed toward influencing and strengthening the Democratic Party. Additionally, the site features a participatory political encyclopedia, glossaries, and other permanent content.””

augustlan's avatar

@dit…: I am perfectly aware that it is a liberal blog, but check the facts for yourself. If the list of “associates” is a flat out lie, that’s one thing, but if it’s accurate…does it matter what the political bent is?

dithibodeaux's avatar

yes.. it matters where the information comes from… The media is supposed to be neutral. Not biased… You can’t get a clear perspective on an issue that comes from a biased source.

AlaskaTundrea's avatar

@Dith…

I disagree. Any intelligent person can ascertain the truth by reading a wide variety of sites, not just those that say what you want to hear, researching on their own, and coming to a conclusion. We won’t all come to the same conclusion every time, but we might come closer to the truth than we do simply by sporting party lines. BTW, I’m an Alaskan who not only voted for Palin for governor, but for Bush last time, so I’m not even a liberal. I am, however, intelligent and fair, so when you get done researching, hope you’ll share.

Bri_L's avatar

@ Squirbel – lirve for spelling “OM NOM NOM”

@ dithibodeaux – “Ayers, Wright, Rezko, and the list goes on” – I myself think that the severity of his connection is in direct correlation to your desire to see him connect or not. May I ask what the rest of the list is? Also, did you do any research into McCain’s connections with shady people?

laureth's avatar

@soapchef: It might not have been this bitter in ‘04, but 2000 was.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D04E2D61F39F930A35750C0A9669C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

1996 was almost as bitter, and it was up there in the 80’s, too.

jvgr's avatar

I think it sucks.
While McCain can not do these things himself, he does allow SP to continue because he wants to win.
Has anyone ever read this woman’s writing and the comments of her followers:
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/10/oops-barack-osama-on-the-ballot/

cheebdragon's avatar

has anyone ever read the comments democrats have left on liberal sites?
They are just as mean as republicans.

augustlan's avatar

@cheeb: links?

laureth's avatar

@cheeb: Some would say that the Demmicans and the Republicrats are the Left and Right branches of the “boot on your face” party.

Neither one is very innocent.

cheebdragon's avatar

take your pick…....
Democraticunderground.com
Democrats.com
Huffingtonpost.com.

I’ll add more when I get home, it takes forever to add links from iPhone

SoapChef's avatar

@cheeb
Yes, pundits, commentators and supporters on both sides are going for the throat. Both sides of the campaign are NOT. BIG difference.

cheebdragon's avatar

because Obama is just so honest about everything…..~

SoapChef's avatar

I take it that was sarcasm, so I am assuming you have some inside information on the integrity of Barack Obama, I guess that remains to be seen. All I know, is that he is not trying to win an election by resorting to doing nothing but talk about the other guys sins, real or imagined.

augustlan's avatar

@cheeb: Did you really read any of the posts/comments on those sites? I clicked around (since your links just led me to the “front page”) to several different articles, and read at least 60 comments. In all that, I saw one guy calling the republicans terrorists (for inciting hate, which could lead to violence), which I thought was a stretch, and a few people calling McCain/Palin “fuckers”. That was what I could find. Doesn’t seem near as extreme as “kill him” or “off with his head”.

Bri_L's avatar

I still wonder if it wasn’t an attempt to whip them up so McCain could look good saying “hey lets calm down”.

He was looking like a huge Obama hating ogre!

Also @ dithibodeaux – When you get back “Ayers, Wright, Rezko, and the list goes on” – I myself think that the severity of his connection is in direct correlation to your desire to see him connect or not. May I ask what the rest of the list is? Also, did you do any research into McCain’s connections with shady people?

dalepetrie's avatar

Bri L – they postulated something similar to what you’re saying over on www.fivethirtyeight.com this morning. They said that because the Drudge Report is giving far more weight to any individual polls showing any good news for McCain than they normally would (as he clearly understands the underlying concept of one poll being meaningless as an indicator of anything), it seems to indicate the panic mode the Republicans are in now, and essentially can only mean one thing… a reset of McCain’s campaign before Wednesday’s debate. They postulate that he will demote Steve Smith, apologize for the negative tone of the campaign, and do what Norm Coleman is doing here in Minnesota (since he started getting his ass handed to him in the polls), promise to run a positive campaign from here on out. They think he’ll apologize for the overall tone and act as though it was all his surrogates’ fault, and that way he can re-paint himself as the man of integrity we all once knew, and maybe shift the narrative back so momentum will start going his way. So though they don’t go this far, it’s possible that they wanted to make it as ugly as possible so they could completely disown the hate they knew would arise and make themselves look better by comparison.

What I really think happened though, which is also consistent to the 538 analysis as they didn’t explicitly say that McCain’s whipping up anti-Obama sentiment was done as a preventitive measure…only that they’re in that mode NOW, is this:

McCain is losing, and losing badly. And as much as he wants to stay above the fray so he can at least plausibly seem like he’s taking the high road, he realized that there is nothing he can say to build himself up. His strengths just aren’t where American sentiment exists today, and the only way he could really close that gap was to do something that would tear down his opponent. So he had to get Palin to push the Rezko/Ayers connection.

I think the violent, racist reactions of some caught him a bit offguard, and finally he had to respond to it. I think he did exactly what a person in his position should have done and had to do…if he hadn’t, history would not look kindly upon him. And I think to a degree, they’re going to try hard, they’re going to fight and fight back, they’re going to do their damndedst to make up this deficit n 3 weeks, but overall I think McCain has been forced to seriouslly consider that he might lose, and he doesn’t want his loss to then result in something tragic happening at the hands of scared and disgruntled supporters. Bottom line, they whiped up the hate intentionally to tear Obama down, they just didn’t realize how ugly the underside of some of that hate really was, and even though McCain has dragged himself into the mud, he’s not quite ready to crawl under a rock.

Bri_L's avatar

@ Dale – Agree with your assessment.

dalepetrie's avatar

@cheebdragon – your point?

I don’t recall Obama or Biden actually saying or doing anything that would have illicited these responses. And no one has shouted “off with his head”, or “kill him” about McCain at an Obama or Biden rally. I’d assume both candidates have supporters who hate the opponent with a visceral loathing that could turn to bloodlust. The main difference seems to be that one side has actively stoked the flames of personal hatred at worst, and turned the other cheek at best.

cheebdragon's avatar

My post has nothing to do with you dale, it was for augustlan and jvgr.

Bri_L's avatar

I was just wondering, some of us on this site say some pretty awful things about the candidates.

Are we better worse or the same than those at the rally. Not the idiots who threaten violence.

dalepetrie's avatar

Fair enough, cheeb. I’ll just reiterate that this is the demarkation point for me. If you use personality based politics to build a sense of personal animosity towards your oponent, it’s going to get ugly, because as you show, there’s enough of that out there to begin with. Both sides have people who are mean spirited towards each other. You can find counterparts among the supporters.

But consider that when you had Rudy Guilliani and Sarah Palin openly mocking community organizers on night 3 of the RNC, you did not see a SINGLE Democrat mocking say military service, now did you?

So, I think Augustlan and jvgr probably are smart enough to get your point that things get nasty on both sides, but we just don’t have counterparts for Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity….sure, Air America mocks the Republicans with incredulity, but I have to say, I’ve seen far fewer AllenGreens on the left than I’ve seen Ann Coulters on the right, and generally the AllenGreens are lone ranters in a sea of blogs, while the Ann Coulters get to go on TV and spew hateful vitriol. And look at Fluther itself…a site which will kick people like AllenGreen off when he spouts hateful rhetoric about Republicans, even though pretty much all the PTB at Fluther agree with him in spirit. I’d love to just once see a right leaning site that would kick off a participant for not being respectful to the Democrats.

I’ve said before and I’ll say again, I’ve met many respectful, intelligent Republicans who can hold their own in a debate about issues without resorting to vile, personal attacks. But over these past 8 years, they’ve become harder and harder to find. In my experience I’d say the number of times I’ve seen liberals resort to low blows is perhaps one tenth of the number of times I’ve seen conservatives do this. And things I hear come out of the mouths of people who actually hold rank in the Republican party would NEVER be tolerated by anyone in a leadership person in the Democratic party. Some say Dems are wimps, but it’s really about being respectful and sticking to the issues. Neither side is perfect, but remember that this year we have one candidate who said, “we can disagree without being disagreeable”, and we had another who produced an ad about his oponent called “Dangerous”.

augustlan's avatar

@cheeb: Thanks for the links. As Dale said, it seems to be way more prevalent from the right wing. That being said, some people, on both sides, just suck!

cheebdragon's avatar

We just don’t notice things we agree with….your views might not be as extreme, but you still have the same basic goal of not wanting republicans in office.
Allengreen wasn’t banned from fluther, he left because he was tired of being moderated, only a couple of his comments were actually removed from the site. Of all the hateful shit he said on fluther, there were only a couple of people from the same party who actually spoke out agaist him (syz was one of them). Most people just had a problem with his gang rape analogy, but as you can see from his profile, It wasn’t a big enough issue for any of the moderators to actually delete it.

augustlan's avatar

I specifically recall calling him a jerk…possibly even a dick.

dalepetrie's avatar

While I agree that there are a lot of people who don’t notice it when it comes from their side, but I’m not one of them. I don’t like disrespectfulness…I like honest debate, and I treated AllenGreen the same way I treated Republican trolls…I told them they’d get their point across better if they espoused a substantive argument, because I understand that you are not going to convince a Republican to vote Democrat or a Democrat to vote Republican…the only people you can reach are the undecideds, and they do NOT like shrill, hostile, abusive language thrown around, it turns them off completely. I know fair play and I know unfair play when I see it, and trust me, it’s been 10 to 1 Republicans to Democrats being overtly hostile, childish and shrill over these last 8 years. And it wasn’t ALWAYS this way, but it’s emanated from the top down. Trust me on this one, I don’t even call myself a Democrat…I’m an independent who has voted for both parties, and independent candidates. I’m true to my beliefs, but even when I see a philosophy I agree with 100%, if it’s pushed forth in a hostile way, I reject it.

And I know AG was not booted permanently but chose to leave after he had a temporary suspension and some posts removed, I just kind of abreviated the story as the details are not important.

I don’t know if my comments to him where I spoke out against him were public or if I just had this conversation w/ him via PM, but I very definitely told him he’d catch more flies with honey, and he posited that Republicans had lizard brains and would only respond to abuse…he was as bad as the ones he was fighting against, and refused to see the folly of making blanket statements. I liked where he was coming from, just not how he got there, and I wasn’t afraid to tell him so, just so you know.

But most importantly, he’s a good illustration of where I DO notice things I agree with if the form is not in line with the content. For every AllenGreen, there are 10 Republitrolls out there…I guarantee you my liberal bias is not coloring my perspective on this one.

augustlan's avatar

@dale: At least some of them were public, as I remember reading them.

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