General Question

stevenb's avatar

Why should I vote for Obama?

Asked by stevenb (3836points) October 21st, 2008 from iPhone

I am still undecided, so would like your input. I am thinking that Obama might get people thinking that change is upon us and that it will spur the economy upwards again. I just don’t know if I feel comfortable with some of his ideas.

Can you help me with some of his positives and convince me to vote for him? I really appreciate your help on this.

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82 Answers

breedmitch's avatar

Obama drives an early model Ford Bronco and enjoys a good bowl of gumbo!

stevenb's avatar

Then he gets my vote! Wait, it’s not nice to tease!

queenzboulevard's avatar

He won’t give the possibility that an inexperienced woman would end up running our country.

PIXEL's avatar

In my opinion Obamas plan would be better for America. This tax increase is not a big deal at all and also its only for people who make over $200 000 a year! Those people won’t care much for the tax increase. Even I wouldn’t mind a tax increase if it would actually help the country. Also those taxes go to the goverment to help our country. Look at this crisis. Also I like how he is not only focusing on the rich like most and has a strategy for the middle class. Health Care would also not be cut by 20% which is what McCain wants to do.

He also loves technology. He has a Twitter you know.

Lightlyseared's avatar

Well, due to the two party system it’s either that or McCain…

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

Its down to $200,000 a year?
Woah. That number is going down now?

AstroChuck's avatar

Because it is the right thing to do. And you do want to do what’s right, right?

dalepetrie's avatar

It’s actually $250k Chris6137, always has been.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

That’s what I thought it was.

Isn’t that number still kinda unfair to people who live in Cali, where the cost of living is very high, so people make more than most places?

Emilyy's avatar

@Chuck: Nice, I love the peer pressure angle!
@Dale: thanks for clearing that up.

I hate to answer your question with a question, but I feel like this might help me understand your stance and how to respond to your query:

If you’re concerned about “some of his ideas”, would you mind elaborating on what they are?

And also, is your undecided status just based in the fact that you have hesitations about Obama, or is there something about McCain that you find particularly compelling?

I feel like this could help me (us?) focus, because a wide open “Why Obama?” seems difficult to address.

But if you really want a quick answer, I feel like you should vote for Obama because he can lead this country in a new, positive, progressive direction, he can relate to the citizens, and he cares about the middle class. And I want the smartest people possible leading this country, and I believe those people to be Obama and Biden. I saw W this weekend and I’m pretty sure that has not been the case for the past 8 years.

…Not to mention the fact that there have been a ton of political posts on Fluther over the past few weeks, including some really thoughtful posts by dale and others…reading through those might give you an idea of why a lot of Fluther thinks you should vote Obama.

robmandu's avatar

Thought I’d help out @dalepetrie and save him some time.

PIXEL's avatar

Also John McCain has agreed and supported George Bush 90% of the time. Look where George got us. Barack Obama seems like a much stronger leader and someone who is able to work under pressure. Joe Biden, Obamas Vice President also seems like a good leader too. Now, this Sarah Palin hasn’t shown strong leadership and much commitement to her job. Good thing she didn’t do that sketch on SNL because that would have been bad for the McCain campaign. She should also think sometimes before she opens her mouth and says some rediculous things.

jessturtle23's avatar

I think he will be less corrupt. I think he gets that young people are pretty much waiting for most older politicans to retire and die off with all of their corporate connections and pillow talk so we can evolve as a nation and the world. I think he will not only inspire the country but the world and not because he is black but because he makes people feel like he cares about people which is something few have felt in the past eight years.

stevenb's avatar

I was concerned the other day when I saw a video of Obama refusing to say the pledge of alegience or to sing the national anthem. Were those just staged? They looked real to me, but it’s so hard to tell. Some of his ideas also sound slightly Socialist. I do think he may not be so included in all of the “old boys club” which would be refreshing. I guess I am gunshy about any president now. I worry that three years from now we might look back and go “damn”!
I guess that almost always happens though.

Emilyy's avatar

Well, if you’re gunshy about any president, it’s time to get over that, because we’re electing one whether you like it or not.

Please make the right choice.

AstroChuck's avatar

Socialist is the new terrorist which is the new muslim which is the new unamerican which is the new appeaser which is the new white-hater. I love how the uninformed will adopt any new sound bite they hear from the right-wing hatemongers.
Oh my God, he’s not wearing a flag lapel pin! Think of the children!

stevenb's avatar

I sadly don’t remember where I saw the clips. Probably tv. I should know better. So is there any website that spells out what he plans? What amount of his promises do you think he will be allowed to keep?

stevenb's avatar

@astrochuck, exactly how does your last response help me? I wasn’t asking you to show me how to be an ass. I’d appreciate help, not snarkiness. If you can’t help, stfu.

Emilyy's avatar

@stevenb: Oh my gosh, really? This post is you, asking us, to help you make a decision about why you should vote for Obama. You asked for a website that spells out Obama’s plans. Chuck told you to look at Obama’s site. If that’s not help, then I don’t know what is. Do you need him to visit the site and copy-paste everything written on it here? Would that be more helpful?

My first reaction is to reply harshly and angrily to your comments, but the more you write, the more saddened it makes me that this is how you have developed your opinions on Obama. You haven’t voiced a single concern about one of Obama’s actual policy plans, opinions, or political stances. You saw a video of him not wanting to do the pledge of alliegance, from a source that you can’t even cite here, and that’s how you formulated this opinion of him as some sort of un-American Socialist? I hope that most Americans aren’t formulating opinions of presidential candidates based on YouTube alone.

Unfortunately, you’re not alone. A lot of Americans who are “undecided” are just listening to the propaganda that’s spoon-fed to them, rather than actually getting out there and researching the issues. Did you watch the debates? You really didn’t think to look on his website for information about his policies? And how in the heck do we know what amount of his promises he’ll be “allowed” to keep? Allowed by who? For that matter, what amount of McCain’s promises would he be “allowed” to keep?

Maybe I’m just ranting here, but I’m trying to say that it saddens me greatly that it seems like you’re buying into the propaganda and basing an important political decision upon it. The best advice I could give you would be to go visit Obama’s and McCain’s websites, read some reliable articles on either side, and get informed by something other than what you’ve been using up until now.

stevenb's avatar

@emily, not his post about the website, the one before that where he somehow was give lurve x 4. That was not helpful, and was snarky. Hence the response. Sorry if I was rude, but I don’t like snarky when I honestly asked for help.

boxing's avatar

Stevenb, in Fluther, the majority is voting for Obama, that is why you might feel the pressure.

Make sure you do your own research.

judochop's avatar

FREE HEALTH CARE.

MarcIsMyHero's avatar

socialist is definitely the new evil buzzword, evoking all kinds of terrible images of scary commies but the reality of it is that socialized medicine is something this country really needs. It works in just about every other country. For an example of another “socialized” program that we already use and depend on look at the fire department. Example: your house is burning, fire man come and put out the fire. It’s their job. They make a good living and are happy to do their job. They do not ask if you have insurance or are able to pay before they try to stop the fire. It’s seems like common sense. Universal health fee is only opposed by insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. These companies are highly corrupt and have incredible amounts of money. The kind of money that goes into Republican pockets to keep them from regulating the industry and the media’s pockets (often in the form of advertising) to keep perpetuating the “evil socialist” myth.

For more on this particular topic (even though it doesn’t particularly deal with McCain or obama ) please watch the documentary Sicko. Yes some love Michael Moore and some hate him but this movie was praised by dems and reps alike. It is a great look at the greed of our healthcare system and shows how well the “socialized” or a better word “universal” or even better “fair” systems of our allies work.

dalepetrie's avatar

Why do I think you should vote for Barack Obama?

I first heard of Barack Obama when he gave the keynote address at the 2004 DNC. He said a lot of wonderful things, but this stuck with me above all:

“The people I meet—in small towns and big cities, in diners and office parks—they don’t expect government to solve all their problems. They know they have to work hard to get ahead, and they want to. Go into the collar counties around Chicago, and people will tell you they don’t want their tax money wasted, by a welfare agency or by the Pentagon. Go in—Go into any inner city neighborhood, and folks will tell you that government alone can’t teach our kids to learn; they know that parents have to teach, that children can’t achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white. They know those things.

“People don’t expect—People don’t expect government to solve all their problems. But they sense, deep in their bones, that with just a slight change in priorities, we can make sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life, and that the doors of opportunity remain open to all.

“They know we can do better. And they want that choice.”

This is when I started to be hopeful about the future. This is when I realized that some people DO see the world the same way I do. That some people DO understand that the economic solutions are not just black and white, where the Democrats say “throw money at it until it goes away” and the Republicans say “every man for himself, it’s the free market, baby.”

There IS wasteful spending at the government level, and government by itself CAN’T just solve all the economic problems of all the people by throwing money at it. But we ALSO can’t fall into the trap that says government has NO role in this, so we shouldn’t even bother to try. Issues of minimum wage, welfare, unemployment, taxation…anything involving the money some people earn and others do not, has been turned into a wedge issue, where the only solutions we get are either/or, the concept of “reaching across the aisle” is nothing more than an empty buzzword meant to curry political favor.

And later in that same speech, he went on to say:

“The pundits, the pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I’ve got news for them, too. We worship an “awesome God” in the Blue States, and we don’t like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States and yes, we’ve got some gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America.”

After at that time 4, and now 8 years after Bush took office, I was seeing so much division in our country, and again, everyone “said” they were “reaching across the aisle”, but voting records exposed most of that to be a lie. No one in our leadership really seemed to believe that there could be good ideas coming from the other side of the fence. And though I’m fiercely liberal and believe in much of the ideas on the left, I think one has to acknowledge that the best solutions are ones that everyone can be comfortable with. We seemed to have lost the ability to compromise, and it has only gotten worse sense then. I place the blame for this squarely on George W. Bush and Karl Rove, who perfected this sort of my way or the highway politics that says if I don’t agree with you, I’m just going to do what I want anyway.

My personal belief is, and has been as far back as I can remember that we live in the United States of America, one of the wealthiest nations there is, and as such, I think we have a duty to look out for the welfare of our citizens (not welfare as in government subsidized payments, but well being in general). We should feel a moral obligation to try to level the playing field for all, to give us all the same chances and same opportunities so that it truly IS our own potential and drive which determines how far we go. We should be able to (and should feel morally obligated) to ensure in some manner that if you are willing and able to work 40 hours per week, you should be able to earn a wage that pays for a decent standard of living…not an extravagant one, but one where you can afford to eat, remain clothed and have a roof over your head. We should also be able to ensure that you can obtain a world class education (as this benefits us all to have an informed citizenry), that you should be able to maintain your health, and that you should have access to the things you need to lead a healthy, productive life of opportunity…things that you would never be able to obtain on your own (infrastructure for example…roads, bridges, schools, libraries, etc.).

I personally believe that our current system of taxation allows for so many tax breaks and incentives at the top end for everything from capital gains on stock investing, to interest credits on property ownership, and so few for those who do not earn enough to survive. So yes, we create a “progressive” tax structure where every penny you earn over and above a certain dollar level is taxed at a different rate, which tiers upwards the more that you make, because the simple fact of the matter is a) the more you make, the more access you have to ways to shield that money from taxation, and b) the more you make, the less taxation disrupts your economic well being. Furthermore, we have so many taxes collected at local, city, state and county levels that are not collected on income, but on things everyone, whether they make 10 thousand or 10 million a year has to buy (and pay the same in taxes). When you really look at it, we have a system now where minimum wage at 40 hours a week doesn’t even get you outside the poverty level, it certainly doesn’t allow you to pay for food and shelter of a sufficient quality to keep you well. And when you compute the percentage you pay in taxes on your income, the person making 10 grand a year might see 3 grand of that go to various taxes, while the person making 10 million a year might see a million of that go to taxes. The argument that we should not make that 10 million a year earner pay more than the million he’s already paying (because after all, he’s paying 334 times what the other guy is paying) relies on you not realizing that the person who can’t afford the taxes is paying 30% of his income on them, and the person who CAN afford them is only paying 10% all told. But if you look at Federal Income tax alone, it’s possible that NONE of that 3 grand the low wage earner is paying in goes to the Federal government, so people will tell you that it’s the rich person who’s paying the taxes and should get the tax break, not recognizing that we’re not looking at OVERALL taxes, just one small subset that if we massage the numbers just right makes someone with very little money actually sympathize more with the robber barons working on Wall Street, and the guy living in a cardboard box ON Wall Street, eating Alpo out of the can.

What Obama wants to do is to make the OVERALL tax system more fair by recognizing that if you make over $250k a year, you’re doing pretty well, you don’t need more help than we already give you…you are indeed not paying enough into the system overall and therefore your taxes need to go up in order to make taxation more fair. And in this way, we can afford to do the things we NEED to do to live up to our moral obligations as a nation. At this time, we are NOT taking care of our own, and it’s by and large directly a result of trickle down economic theory which was Ronald Reagan’s big contribution to this country’s economic policy. It presumed that the more we cut the taxes of those who have the most money, the more jobs they would create and the more our economy would prosper, and further we should eliminate any barriers via regulation or oversight wherever we can to allow the large companies who employ people freedom to move and grow, bringing the economy along with it. The problem of course is that we’ve allowed these companies to see their rights come first over the rights of ordinary citizens, we’ve made it so their executives can be compensated like kings while they lay off, downsize and outsource regular Americans out of jobs left and right in the name of “competition”. They are not creating jobs, they are eliminating jobs, and they are not reinvesting their profits into corporate growth, but are rewarding their management and shareholders handsomely. We’ve seen the index of the major stocks that 85% of people in the US don’t even own skyrocket since Reagan took office, yet the number of poor people has gotten larger, the middle class has gotten smaller, and those with wealth have become wealthier.

Barack Obama’s plan is to try to get us back to something that makes sense. He recognizes that real prosperity is not going to happen in the way we’ve been pushing for over the past 3 decades. He realizes that if we give all the money to the people on the top, they will just pocket it all and it will never trickle down the prosperity we’ve been promised…and he has 3 decades to look at to prove his point. Whereas if you look at the economy from the bottom up, and do as he said, don’t use government to just solve everyone’s problems FOR them, but to give those who do not have the same opportunities as others a hand UP, instead of a hand OUT, we will see more money in the pockets of more people. These people have more needs at this time than they have money to fulfill those needs, so that money will get spent on the necessities of life…it will not get invested in blue chip stocks and hoarded away in tax shelters, it will not be used to invest in subprime mortgages that have been sliced and diced every which way but which have never really had any real oversight. This money will buy food, clothing and shelter…and as people do better, other consumer goods. That in turn creates new markets and expands old ones…as demand increases, so must supply. For supply to increase, the captains of industry need to hire new workers. When that happens, more people are put to work who weren’t working. These people now have money to spend on the things they need, and the spend it. Which means there is more demand, supply must increase to meet the demand, more jobs must be created to produce the supply, more workers jump in to fill the void, the cycle repeats, and eventually those with less money are more prosperous AND those with more money are ALSO more prosperous, and EVERYONE is paying their fair share in taxes…those who make more money are paying more as a percentage of salary in Federal taxes, but less as a percentage of salary in local taxes…it balances out, and the government is flush with cash to keep helping people get a hand UP.

Another facet to Obama’s economic plan is PAYGO, that is Pay As You GO. For DECADES, Democrats were called “tax and spenders”, but what we’ve seen with Bush and company is a new trend of “borrow and spenders” coming from the supposedly fiscal conservative side of the fence. And our leadership encourages us to live beyond our means…they relaxed rules on banking so these institutions that are now in trouble were able to borrow 30 dollars for every dollar in assets, and with cheap and easy credit we’ve been encouraged frequently to buy now, pay later. We’re told in the face of a national tragedy not to sacrifice, but to go shopping to prop up the economy. Obama is exactly what we need in my opinion, which is someone who will look at the entire budget, and say, this is what we need to spend money on, these are things we don’t need to spend money on, these are things we need to spend more/less on and these are things we could spend more wisely on. What do we need to do, and if we need to do it, we need to know how we are going to pay for it, we can’t borrow any more to do that. This is what Obama’s plan brings us…spending that makes sense and which is funded.

And so one looks at where he wants to spend money. He does want to help people out of poverty. He wants to strengthen our education system by funding early childhood through college programs. He wants to reward excellence in teaching. He wants to gain a commitment to community service from the young people by providing college credits in exchange for these subsidies. He wants to invest aggressively in green technologies and in weaning us off our dependence on foreign energy. He wants to make sure that every American has access to good quality, but affordable health care. He wants to re-direct our military spending so it goes to fighting our enemies and not starting costly quagmires out of personal vendettas based on deceit and an overreaching ideology.

I believe that under an Obama Presidency, we will have a more just and equitable society that works for a greater number of people. Conversely, I see in McCain’s campaign the ideology of division that has driven us to the point we’re at now. I have become extremely alarmed in the past couple weeks with McCain/Palin’s message which boils down to “Obama is not a regular American like you and me, you must fear him.” Every day I get a phone call or piece of mail or both, or see another clip from a rally where one, the other or both of them says something that is designed to engender a sense of us vs. them. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN NAZI GERMANY. I’m not saying that McCain or Palin or Bush or any of them is Hitler or anywhere near as bad. What I’m saying is, we look on 70some years down the road and think, “how could this happen?” We can’t understand or conceive of how an entire nation could just simply become so divided that there was just one side dictating everything and everyone else was silenced. But that is EXACTLY what is happening, because they are following the same facist playbook. Republicans unfortunately (and I’m not talking about regular, everyday conservatives, I’m talking about the neocons who are struggling to keep any power they can AT ANY COST) are trying to divide us, just as they were in 2004 when Obama spoke about parsing us into red states and blue states. Obama tells us to hope. McCain tells us to fear. Hope appeals to the greatest parts of our humanity…a desire to make things better not just for ourselves, but for EVERYONE. Fear seeks to divide us, to make us worried about “that one” who “pals around with terrorists”. And you can see it working….people at Palin rallies carrying around Obama monkeys, saying he’s a Muslim, a terrorist, is going to be bad for the white race, he’s an Arab, a Socialist, a radical. Here’s a man who committed his life to community service, and yet by playing on these fears that maybe there’s something he’s not telling us, we now have people punching Obama canvassers in the face, sending death threats to and vandalizing offices of community organizing organizations, openly talking about how they can’t trust a nigger to run this country. It’s a lunatic fringe, but this kind of rhetoric seeks to expand it, to build upon it, and to use it to divide us into us vs. them, the same way the Third Reich did in order to rise to power.

For my money, the choice is clear. Do you want a new direction? Do you want to try something different that we’ve tried for the past 28 years (something the explosion on Wall Street has shown was never a good idea in the first damn place)? Do you want to strengthen the social safety net that FDR put in place, which helped bring us out of the great depression and into the keeping up with the Joneses prosperity of the 1950s, or do you want to constantly unravel it until even our social security is left to be invested and lost on the stock market? Do you want a health care system than can cover anyone who wants it, or do you want that too to be forced onto the open market so the young and healthy can buy health insurance and the rest of us get a 5 grand a year tax credit but no longer have employer based health care and can’t buy it on the open market (that’s what happened with pensions….EVERY employer used to offer them, but no more).

Do what your conscience says is best, but don’t be afraid of the unknown, don’t let them scare your vote out of you. Do what you think is best for the country. I will, and that’s why I’m voting for Obama.

dalepetrie's avatar

sorry Rob, I wanted to answer this question directly not just refer to piecemeal things I’ve said in the past.

stevenb's avatar

@ emily, all any of us can see is propaganda. That is politics. Whoever can get the most people to believe their propaganda wins. You know that. I watched the debates, and I am still undecided. I can’t quote my sources, and don’t see why it matters here. I see so so much propaganda on each side that I don’t believe either. If you believe everything Obama says, that’s sad too. I’ve never seen a politician who could live up to their promises. Somehow whether it be congress, or voters, they are made to compromise on what they promised I get in office. I hope Obama can keep his promises if he gets elected, but I would bet he can’t. I really believe that change will happen if he get in just because people will be happy to have a new face and a new party at the helm. I appreiate chucks link, and have saved it to read later. You, like others though, aren’t helping me by sharing what you like about his policies an promises. You just say I make you sad because I am so uninformed. You don’t know what I have seen and what I have read. I asked for peoples opinions about why I should vote for him. I wanted to know why they are voting for him. Was astrochuck answering that with the snarky post? No. I’m not going to quote policy he has promised because I want others translations of what they have heard. I know what I have heard, and just want input from others. If I asked you if you like a restaraunt would you ask me to quote the menu and recite the ingredients? I wanted help, but was hoping to avoid being chastised for asking. I should think about it next time before I ask a question. Thank you for defending chuck though. I wasn’t trying to be rude about him providing the link. I appreciate that. I also think that is like asking a chef at a restaraunt who is the best cook in town. Most will sing their own praises. I was hoping for a nonpartisan site that could maybe try an unbiased comparison. I am a dreamer though.

ezraglenn's avatar

Where do you live? California? Who cares then.
just kidding

Vote for Obama because he is better than McCain. Look around if you want reasons. I don’t think he’s perfect, but he’s better than the alternative.

Emilyy's avatar

ok, apologies for straying from the topic, but there’s nothing I could say that could possibly be more convincing or eloquent than dale’s response above.

stevenb's avatar

Thank you dalepetrie!! That is what I hoped for. Your opinion was well spoken and I appreciate it.

boxing's avatar

It is hard to find a pure nonpartisan site, and that is why it is important to visit as many as possible. Analyze them together with your own philosophy, of course.

And rememember, policies by both candidates can not be viewed seperately. Say, tax plan, health care, job creation, government spending, war on terror, Iraq, social issues, all have to be considered, but prioritzed.

It is very easy to hear something and believe something right away, so it is important to double check the facts and numbers, also the relative meanings of them.

MarcIsMyHero's avatar

@ dale, thankyou not only for that great and thorough answer but also for reminding me of the 2004 dnc speech. Of was truly inspiring watching Obama (who very few people knew of at the time) captivate and give hope.

@Steven, your question of how much of the policies will Obama be allowed to enact comes down to really two things. It comes down to how well Congress supports him, and it will also be affected by how much shit the right wing NeoCons stir up to throw him off his game. As far as having Congress’ support it is looking good. The trend last election showed many right wing seats lost to democrats and that shift is expected to continue with this election. I believe in not only his desire and hope for change but also his ability to BRING US CHANGE.

Also, Collin Powell’s endorsement speech for Obama was an amazing look at both candidates and their policies. It was amazing seeing a respected Republican leader, a 4 star General, who served in both Bush’s cabinets, speak out against the direction of fear and division that his party has taken and pledge his vote to Obama. You can watch the video on MSNBC.com. It made me feel a renewed pride in my country.

critter1982's avatar

@pixel: FYI Palin was on SNL.

breedmitch's avatar

@marci: Shame on you! How can you and Michelle Obama not always be proud of your country. ;)

PIXEL's avatar

@critter1982 I know but I thought she was sopposed to do a sketch infront of a poduim. She then said (on the show) it wouldn’t be good for her campaign so refused do it.

MarcIsMyHero's avatar

@breed, I like that you are intentionally trying to perpetuate the propaganda that my name is marci and not Marc Is My Hero. Cute. Beyond that I think it was so ridiculous that Michelle Obama has been criticized for that comment. So ridiculous. I still hear people spouting that as the reason why they are anti-obama. Completly absurd. It’s okay to lose faith. It’s even better to regain pride.

augustlan's avatar

Copied from my answer to the Q “What is your stump speech”: I believe in equal rights for all of us, not just some of us. I think what a woman decides to do with her own body is her own business. We are in a war that has no end in sight. The Patriot Act is downright unpatriotic. My candidate’s tax plan will benefit the middle class, while his opponent’s plan will benefit the wealthiest among us. While I don’t truly believe things will ever change, if there is a candidate that has a teeny, tiny, minute chance at changing things, it’s Obama.

shilolo's avatar

OK, who can hook me up with some DaleNotes?

dalepetrie's avatar

Thanks to all for the lurve.

stevenb – One other thing (if you can believe there is anything left to say after THAT post), having read your comment about doubting that politicians will do what they say, I get that. I don’t think Obama is completely beyond stretching the truth to suit his political agenda, no one who would even consider taking the job is. I guess all I really haven’t answered (though there are many other reasons I like Obama and am not just voting against McCain, but I could type from now until Election day and never get it all out), is why I believe he believes what he says. No, I don’t think any one elected official will ever have enough power and ability to get everything they promised done. But for me, it’s more a matter of your intent than anything. That is one reason the experience argument never worked on me…people were saying (before Palin of course) that they were more comfortable with McCain because he had decades of experience in working to get things through Congress, whereas Obama was a relative newcomer. But I always looked at total life experience for one thing. I feel that if you’re going to seek the Presidency with the express goal of making things better for the average American (as well as the disadvantaged American), to have spent several years working as a community organizer to bring about just such a change IS relevant experience.

I also look at the role of the Presidency through the lens of what the President is sworn to do on taking office (to uphold and protect the Constitution of the United States). I’m of the belief that W has actually eroded the Constitution in many ways, whereas Obama was a professor of Constitutional Law for 12 years. But the real problem with experience to me is, let’s say you’re playing football. The blue team is playing the red team. The quarterback on the blue team wants to move the ball to the goal that will score for the blue team. The quarterback on the red team wants to move the ball that will score for the red team. So, if you’re rooting for the blue team, and this game is for the championship, and the blue team has an inexperienced but capable quarterback, while the red team has a highly experienced quarterback, are you going to root for the red quarterback because he’s more experienced? No, you’re going to root for the blue quarterback because he’ll try to move the ball in the direction you want it to go. Get my point? I think voting for McCain to do what I don’t want him to do, because I think he’s more capable of pushing his agenda (an agenda I don’t agree with) is FAR more detrimental than voting for Obama who will try to do what I want him to do, but might have a slightly harder time because he has less experience.

I guess what it boils down to for me is I think the quality of Obama’s experience is important, as is his goal. Even if he can’t do everything he promises, I know he will try. I know because that is how he has lived his life. Instead of taking a 6 figure job on Wall Street, he took a 13k a year working with poor people in Chicago. He had dedicated his life to public service in one form or another, whether it be as a community organizer, a college professor or a Senator. I don’t see room for an ulterior motive with Obama….other than the obvious…want of power. But I don’t see anything in his voting record, or his work record in the private sector which gives me any pause whatsoever about what he wants for the country (and no, I don’t believe in guilt by association). Whereas McCain has towed the party line when Bush had high approval ratings, and the closer he has gotten to the election, the more he has distanced himself, yet he’s still supported the failed policies of the Bush administration 90% of the time overall. And McCain himself said, “the only cure for Presidential ambition is embalming fluid…” a statement that is very much consistent with how he has run his campaign. He has hired the people who smeared him in 2000 to do whatever it takes to tear down his opponent, because he can’t build himself up. He has run a campaign that has been called one of the most, if not THE most negative and dishonest in history.

jasonjackson's avatar

MarcIsMyHero mentioned Colin Powell’s endorsement of Obama. Here’s the video of that, in case you haven’t seen it: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27265369/

I think it’s as well-considered and thoughtful as any endorsement I’ve ever seen, which – for me, anyway – gives it that much more weight. Powell isn’t blithely tossing his support to the most convenient candidate, like some B-level celebrity might; quite the contrary, he obviously started from a dispassionate stance, or perhaps even leaning toward supporting McCain – but then gave the issue a lot of thought, weighed each candidate carefully, and came to the conclusion that Obama is the man for the job.

Powell also demonstrates that he has the right kind of patriotism and love for America, not the simplistic jingoism of so much of the right wing. And that he’s a careful thinker, striving to understand issues before tackling them. Recognizing those qualities in him also gives his endorsement of Obama more weight, for me – he clearly cares deeply about America and is doing what he can to truly understand and fix her problems. Even if that means speaking out against his own political party – no small act of bravery for him, career-wise.

Although I disagree with some of Powell’s political viewpoints, my respect for him has increased significantly as a result of watching this video.

It’s totally worth the ~7 minutes of your time (and the 30 seconds for the annoying pre-video ad) to watch.

emilyrose's avatar

@pixel—the SNL thing was a joke. She was never going to perform that skit! Come on : )

As for the question, I am supporting Obama for a number of reasons. I like his calm—I feel that he will be a thoughtful president and not take any of his decisions lightly. I like most of his positions on the environment. I think he picked a qualified VP, versus Palin who has not shown that she is ready to handle the job. His endorsements, including Powell, give me hope. I agree more with his position on the war than I do with McCain. I also think it is important to look at the way he has rallied so many Americans. He has broken fundraising records, largely from very small donations. I read that the average donation was $86, and that many of those come from low-income people. He is someone that can inspire people and bring them together. His campaign is strong and he has not had to stoop to the level of the McCain campaign by blowing small connections out of proportion like Ayers and Acorn. It looks to me like the McCain camp doesn’t have many substantive arguments—they are all based on fear, and some on outright lies.

I fear the possible death of McCain (considering statistically it would be a shock if he made it 4 years) and Palin’s staunch pro-life stance. Had her daughter been properly educated about birth control, she may not have had to take time out of school and marry at such a young age. I appreciate where pro-life folks are coming from, and nobody wants to have an abortion, but we have to be realistic. People are having sex, and they need to be taught about safe sex, STDs, pregnancy etc.

I also think Obama will be better for the economy. On his website there is a tax calculator. You can try it yourself. Under his plan, I would save $500. That’s not much for someone living in San Francisco, but for many that may pay a month’s rent!

I hope you vote for Obama. Who is your wife voting for?

girlofscience's avatar

@stevenb: Sorry I came to this thread so late. So, are you convinced yet? If not, let me know the points that are still troublesome for you, and I’ll evaluate them from an Obama-supporter’s perspective (if you would like).

I already convinced one person. :)

emilyrose's avatar

@girlofscience—can you help me convince my mom? She just told me she loves Sarah Palin. And she lives in New Hampshire. It’s scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

girlofscience's avatar

@emilyrose: Well, as of today, Obama has a 93% chance of winning NH, so the state should be in good shape, but of course we shouldn’t rely on a cushy percentage, and we should try to get every voter possible on our side. If you want to PM me some of her hang ups, I’ll see if I have any arguments that matched the ones I used to the other another person!

googlybear's avatar

because he’s a nice guy…

stevenb's avatar

Thanks girlofscience. I may be asking you some more soon. Thanks for all of the answers so far. I would still love more of course.

emilyrose's avatar

did you watch the colin powell clip? That was awesome and I am going to send it to mom!

stevenb's avatar

Im going to this morning.

@emilyrose, my wife is voting for Obama. She said she thinks McCain is just another Bush.

emilyrose's avatar

Listen to your lovely wife and please thank her for us : )

augustlan's avatar

Just watched Powell’s endorsement. What a great clip!

fireside's avatar

here’s a good reason

“The message, posted Monday on the password-protected al-Hesbah Web site, said if al-Qaida wants to exhaust the United States militarily and economically, “impetuous” Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain is the better choice because he is more likely to continue the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

you’re not a terrorist are you, man?
lol

critter1982's avatar

You shouldn’t :P

stevenb's avatar

Any specific reasons, critter?

critter1982's avatar

@stevenb: I don’t feel it is necessary to redirect this thread. I sent you a comment with several reasons.

stevenb's avatar

Sorry, thought you had another
Thanks for what you sent.

critter1982's avatar

nope just wanted to chime in.

Response moderated
lelabeem's avatar

Obama has run an incredibly well-organized campaign headed by a team of very smart people- he came out of nowhere and beat Hillary, which nobody thought was possible. I think that if he can run a campaign as well as he has, he can certainly run our country.

He has raised all of this money, even during a recession, which shows us that people are incredibly passionate about this candidate and about his message of change- enough to donate money even when they don’t have much to spare.

He has opened up a conversation about race that nobody was willing to approach, and I believe that people are ready to unite under a common purpose, regardless of their race- we all deserve to live in a country where we are treated as equals.

Barack Obama is an incredible man. He gives people reason to hope when there aren’t a lot of obvious reasons to have hope, especially about our government. The other side says he’s got no substance, when in fact he is one of the most inspirational leaders of our time. He doesn’t use fear to get our attention.

I can’t wait until the election is over. It’s so stressful.

finkelitis's avatar

Stevenb—I also have a million reasons that I like Obama, but I think dalepetrie and others have already covered much of the substance of it. But I have a question for you: what are important issues for you? What would you like a president to do?

A follow up question: what are the specific things about Obama that make you uncomfortable?

dalepetrie's avatar

lelabeem – I agree with you completely, except for “which nobody thought was possible”. I not only thought it was possible, I predicted 2 years ago he would not only win the election, but he’d win it in a landslide. Of course everyone thought I was insane. Though I’m pretty confident I couldn’t have been the only person on the planet to think this.

finkelitis's avatar

dalepetrie: I believe the founder of fluther made a similar prediction earlier this year. You may have beat him to it, though.

augustlan's avatar

Read this, the NY Times endorsement. Makes a strong case.

El_Cadejo's avatar

^that was awesome

augustlan's avatar

I take no credit…it was shown in this thread. Just thought it would be useful here.

stevenb's avatar

@finkelitis, I am worried about the economy. I still feel like the media was a big part of why it slowed down here in the northwest. Everyone here was good until the media started saying that the housing bubble was collapsing. The house building here WAS the economy. As soon as people got scared, it slowed down the whole area. I would like, somehow, to increase peoples confidence again and get them buying and LIVING again. It seems like everyone is so scared about the election outcome, they sit at home and buy NOTHING. I am not saying I support useless spending, but when building was going, it created it’s own micro-economy. I miss that.

From what I can find of his voting record, he rarely voted to lower taxes. I know that most votes are half rigged. He may have wanted to lower taxes, but then somebody attatched something else to the bill he disagreed with, so he had to vote the other way. If that is the case, shouldn’t they say so?

If he gets elected president, that four years will be the longest job he has ever had. I worry about that a little, because you need to learn from your jobs, and if you are in and out so fast, how much can you learn?

If he increases taxes on corporations, won’t that drive more of them overseas?

I am still reading up on all of these to see if there is something I am missing. I am leaning his way, but still have a few questions. I had my wife send a link from home that was sent to me here. Thanks again for the help.

stevenb's avatar

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/21/the-comprehensive-argument-against-barack-obama/

That is a link I was sent that raises some questions. Any thoughts?

Judi's avatar

@steven,
If we quit giving tax breaks to companies who ship jobs overseas and give tax incentives to employers who create jobs here then we can create MORE high paying jobs.
If McCain has his way with health care more people will be uninsured. My husband with 5 employees will stop providing health care. If health care benefits count as income then his workers comp and liability insurance go up because they are linked to payroll. He’ll probably quit the benefits and give his employees a little raise, but the chances of these guys actually buying insurance for themselves and taking advantage of the tax credit is slim to none. They will take the raise and spend it to survive rising prices and reduced availability of credit.
And buying good health care on your own? forget it! I can tell you we pay way over $5000 per employee for their health care. McCain talks about Cadillac plans that cover plastic surgery. I have never heard of such a plan. If plastic surgery is covered it’s for someone who has been disfigured. If correcting a disfigurement is Cadillac treatment then how the heck do you care for someone on a Honda budget?

Judi's avatar

This is one of the greatest reasons to vote for him. Because in voting for Obama, you are voting for hope in a future better than today. You’re voting for hope and not for fear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjXyqcx-mYY

critter1982's avatar

@judi: IMO, I don’t believe the tax incentive/increase will work both ways. What I mean is that no matter what companies are going to go overseas to compete in their industries. My industry in particular (electronics industry) ships a lot of jobs over to China because the cost of engineers in China is about 1/5th that of engineers here in the US. Tax incentives will not be large enough to keep companies here in the US. In my opinion it is likely that everything will come full circle. That is to say China will become just as expensive as the US similarly to what is happening in Mexico. Companies that moved to Mexico are now no longer finding financial benefits from it.

On the other hand raising corporate taxes will undoubtedly cause companies to shift and move jobs overseas much quicker. I think anything that we can do (ie lower taxes) to keep them here longer until everything does come full circle, will be better for our economy in the long run as far as jobs and our GNP are concerned.

I can’t argue for McCains health care but what I do know is that government control over this type of system in the past has only generated tons of debt and inefficient government spending. The government/politicians are not good at running businesses. This could lead to higher health care costs in the future and even things being rationed (maybe??). I know his system is not that of Canada’s but the general idea is very similar. Canadians have issues receiving health care on time and in the past few years their average life span according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) is declining. I would argue that the government is responsible for the high health care costs today as they are involved in over half of health care spending through Medicare, Medicaid, and other programs. I don’t think the answer is Universal Health Care or taxing existing health care. We need a system that encourages everyone including doctors, hospitals, patients, and drug companies to keep costs down. As long as “somebody else” is paying the bill, the bill will be too high.

finkelitis's avatar

@critter1982: On health care, I just can’t agree with your arguments or your conclusions. Canadians live longer than us, on average. Moreover, we spend more (much more) than other countries on health care, and ours is worse. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/12/AR2007081200113.html
http://cthealth.server101.com/Old%20Universal%20Health%20Care/united_states_spends_most_on_health,_but_france_no__1_in_treatment.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/12/AR2007081200113.html

for example. Our health care system is ranked 37th and we spend more. A quote from an article above that speaks for itself:

“The United States spends a stunning $3,724 per person on health each year. But measuring how long people live in good health not just how long they live the Japanese beat Americans by 4½ years, and the French lived three more healthy years. Yet Japan spends just $1,759 per person on health and France $2,125….

WHO recommended that countries extend health insurance to as many people as possible. That doesn’t mean endorsing government-run insurance, Frenk stressed. He said countries with good mixes of private and public programs do well.

But ’‘the worst way to pay for care is out of pocket at the time of illness,’’ he said.”

Let me point out that Obama’s plan for health care is precisely a good mix of private and public programs.

If you want to go deeper into the reasons why our costs are so high, you can start with

http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2005/anderson_healthspending.html

and follow links to more detailed studies. But it doesn’t come down to medicare, medicaid, lawsuits… it’s because our system is fragmented, because the bureaucratic costs (from HMOs, insurance companies, and other private entities) are enormous, and because too many people’s means of health care is just to go to the emergency room when they have a crisis. Get rid or medicare and medicaid, you’ll find that the price of health care will continue to rise.

Considering that we already spend much more than other countries for a second rate product, I have trouble seeing the basis for real worry about universal health care. Virtually every 1st world country that offers universal health care gets a higher health rating than us, and spends less money to get it.

robmandu's avatar

Just gonna throw in that life expectancy and mortality rates can not be tied only to heathcare systems and expenditures. Diet and exercise play a large (and more significant?) role.

finkelitis's avatar

@ stevenb: thanks for clarifying what you were after. I think that democrats (Obama included) generally support lowering taxes for poorer americans, and republicans generally try to lower them for richer americans. The republican argument is that these tax breaks “trickle down” to poorer americans, and that it makes the U.S. a more appealing place to do business. The democratic argument is that giving tax breaks to poorer americans actually helps to stimulate the economy more, because poor and middle class people tend to spend more of their money than the wealthy do (which everyone agrees is true), and that keeps more in circulation. It’s also important to make sure that the middle class stays strong, because a strong and educated middle class makes for an appealing place to do business.

My own sense is that progressive taxation is both fairer and better for the economy, which is one of the reasons I tend to vote democratic. There are complexities to this, of course, but that’s the basic idea. I think history tends to bear this out. No serious economists take trickle down economic theories seriously anymore.

Given the terrible economic times that we’ll be entering, I don’t know if Obama will actually be able to give the tax break that he wants to give. Assuming he can and does, though, it will benefit people making less than $250,000 a year. I am in this category. I assume you are too. I will probably always be in this category. If I ever made that much money, I don’t think I’d care much about what taxes I paid on it. But the point is, I personally stand to benefit from Obama’s tax plan. McCain wants to give most of his tax cut to the wealthy. Why should I support a tax cut for them? They can lobby for themselves (and they do). There is no reason to believe that tax cuts for them help me (as they often claim—so called “voodoo economics”) and no reason why I should be looking after them at all. Under Clinton (and higher taxes on the wealthy) our economy did great. Bush lowered taxes especially for the wealthy. One of the main issues, tax-wise, that’s coming up is whether his tax cuts will be made permanent (one of the things McCain supports) or expire in 2010 as they’re scheduled to (they were made temporary so Bush wouldn’t have to factor in their true costs in his budgets).

dalepetrie's avatar

@stevenb

First – the housing slowdown was no media creation in my neck of the woods…I work for a real estate developer and the post mortem in our local media is that the bubble started to burst in 2005, and the media didn’t really pick up on it until 2007. I really think when people were being loaned money they couldn’t afford to pay back, when combined with investment banks being allowed to borrow (without any real oversight) 30 dollars for every dollar in assets was a toxic combination. There have been many economic crises that resulted in no small part from pessimism (our entire investment system is after all built on expectations, not solid data), but this was not the case this time…there were too many people driving up costs without the value to support it, and look at the rest of the world…the entire world economy is tanking, I kind of doubt that the northwest would have escaped unscathed if it weren’t for the big, bad media.

Second, you hit the nail on the head regarding tax decreases…it’s impossible to divine what he’d do just based on his voting record in either the US or Illinois Senate…you can find patterns, but in every pattern there is likely to be a disruption which probably (with the way legislatures work) has nothing to do with the part of the bill you want to analyse. And consider that he’s spent his entire tenure in the US Senate under GW Bush, and you know how many tax cuts for the middle class have come up for vote in that time period!

Third, your statement that 4 years would be the longest job Obama ever held is completley false. First off, he was a College Professor (of Constitutional Law I might add, and what is the first thing the President does? He takes an oath to uphold the Constitution.) for 12 years! That’s 4 more years than he COULD be President by LAW. He also served as a State Legislator in Illinois for over 7 years, again, almost as much as he could serve in two terms as President. He ALSO will have a full 4 year term as a US Senator under his belt when he takes the oath of office. That’s 3 jobs he’s held that long…I fail to see the problem or the logic in this statement.

Fourth, as to your question of how much can you learn in a job that lasts less than 4 years, well I’ll just point out that he worked for 3 years as a community organizer. Look at how organized his campaign and volunteer staff and get out the vote efforts have been. I’ve never SEEN organization at the grassroots level like he’s managed to do. I’d say he learned more in a job that only lasted 3 years than I’ve learned in my 15 year career to be quite frank with you.

Fifth, I’ll echo the sentiments of a few others about taxes. It’s not just about tax rates…you saw that McCain says we have the highest corporate tax rates of any country in the world. But most large corporations don’t pay US Income Tax at ALL.

Obama just gave a speech yesterday in which he pointed out, “By the way, did you know that there’s a building in the Cayman Islands that supposedly houses 18,000 corporations. That’s either the biggest building or the biggest tax scam on record. And I think we know which one it is.”

What McCain would do is keep giving tax SHELTERS to companies that ship their operations overseas, he would refuse to take tax breaks and tax incentives away from companies that move to avoid paying a reasonable working wage to their employees. What Obama has clearly stated he wants to do is he wants to make it harder for profitable companies to avoid taxes which is how our current system is stacked. He will close loopholes which are ultimately what sends these jobs overseas, not the taxes. And if you’re worried about job creation, McCain has proposed NOTHING like the building of a green technologies workforce which will add 5 million jobs to our economy and usher in an era of technologically driven prosperity like we saw in the 90s.

Finally, as for your link, first of all, they admit their bias practially in the first sentence by saying they are two 20something conservatives. Second, the first issue is abortion. If you’re pro-life, it’s understandable that you’d have a problem with Obama, but if you’re pro-choice, he’s the only choice. And if that’s not your top issue, they move in the second point to taxation.

Now the first thing they mention (and this is the only thing I’m going to go after here, you can ask any specific questions if you want and I’ll be glad to follow up), is this link to a WSJ story about how Obama’s tax cut isn’t really a tax because it raises marginal rates faster. This is a RUSE. I’ve debunked this before. Essentially they’re trying to say that a non-refundable tax credit is better because when taxes start to rise they rise more slowly under a cherrypicked set of circumstances. What they don’t tell you is that a refundable tax credit gives you money back even if your tax liability is zero, therein lies the difference, in real dollar terms of how much money a taxpayer gets back, the plan is better, but if you look at the marginal rate on an incremental change from say the first $100 in income to the second $100 in income, the tax rises faster under Obama’s plan than McCain’s. But more money ends up in the taxpayer’s pocket under Obama’s plan. Which one is going to put more money in your pocket, a slower incremental gain or a larger dollar tax refund? Their facts are accurate, but they are essentially obfuscation…parsing out words so that you don’t see the big picture. And the whole study was put together by Brookings I believe which is a conservative think tank.

With numbers you can make them say ANYTHING you want. Like you can say the top 2% of wage earners pay 35% of all taxes, and that may be true and shocking, but they make more than 35% of the income. And even if you use a definition which shows them making less than 35% of the income, you’re not showing things like all the other little taxes that are built in, so that you see the billionaire paying 20% of his money into the tax system, well that’s a LOT in terms of dollars, but say 200 million on a billion in income is not going to be missed as much as 2 grand on a 10 grand income, especially when there are 2 grand in other smaller taxes collected at state and local levels which makes the effective OVERALL tax rate for the guy paying 10 grand come out to be 40%, whereas all these piddly little taxes don’t raise that 20% figure for the billionaire by a single percentage point. Numbers are all relative, you have to be very critical in analysing them to find out what these particular numbers are relative to.

Bottom line though, and 80% of Economists who have looked at both tax plans agree, Obama’s plan is WAY better for the middle class, and McCain’s plan is WAY better for the wealthy.

It’s not rocket science, you’re just allowing spin to make you question logic.

finkelitis's avatar

So… in terms of the middle class, it suffered and shrank under Bush. I feel it’s time to reach out to them directly, not via the rich. Obama’s tax plan does that, and McCain’s doesn’t.

Now, as for his experience, I don’t know where you heard that he hasn’t been at any job for more than four years. See

http://obamasresume.org/

for example. Maybe his titles changed, but he isn’t bouncing around in the way you have been led to believe he is.

Now I’ll go check out that link you provided.

finkelitis's avatar

@dalepetrie: you are so right on that I don’t know why I answer. Thanks for all the elucidation.

@stevenb: it is hard to come to solid conclusions on these issues sometimes because politicians (and mostly republicans, I have to say), have mastered the art of obscuring real, logical dialogue on these issues. This is because they tend to back positions that the majority of the country doesn’t actually agree with. There strategy is to use fear, guilt by association, and generally kick dust into the air to prevent people seeing things clearly. They are very good at it. And to try to get fewer people to come to the polls, sadly.

By the way, thisamericanlife.org had a great piece on the root cause of the housing bubble. Very interesting, if you can track it down.

critter1982's avatar

@finkelitis:

Links to governmental spending in healthcare. Government is a big reason our healthcare costs are so high.

Link1
Link2
Link3

I’m not arguing with you that our current healthcare system sucks. I agree something needs to be done but a government run healthcare system in my mind won’t work. History tells us that whatever government gets their hands on gets screwed up and in the end costs tax payers more money and/or causes the US to go into more debt.

Universal health care is like ten people in a boat with only enough food for three; so they rearrange the seating and expect there to be enough food for all ten. Neither partisan healthcare solution is going to work. We need to revamp the system.

dalepetrie's avatar

to the contrary finkelitis, I love that Obama Resume link, I hadn’t seen that…kudos for posting it…I think you’re additions are very valuable to this discussion even if I do try to cover my bases.

critter, you should be rejoicing about Obama’s health care because it’s not single payer universal government run. He wants to keep the private insurance system and use government to keep down the costs. Indeed, he’ll be moving the uninsured onto insurance plans which will more than likely be privately owned. Some of the insurance may end up being administered by the govt, but I’d rather have government administered health care than none at all. There are a lot of things we can do here and we’re not doing any of them.

And btw, just about every Canadian I’ve asked says the whole having to wait for care is really an overblown concern, most are STUNNED to learn how our system works.

stevenb's avatar

@dale, I must talk to different Canadians. The one I know say you have to wait a LONG time for specialized care. They don’t have near the amount of high tech machines needed for care in every city. Minimal care is easy enough to get, but anything out of the ordinary and they say you had better have some time on your hands and be able to travel a long way on short notice. You can’t change appointment easily and you won’t get a reschedule. I have never looked it up, but over a dozen of my friends all tell me the same thing.

stevenb's avatar

I really want to say thank you to everyone for the open and informative discussion. You are being more helpful and interpretive than any website I have found. You all rock in my book, be you Republican or Democrat. Thanks again, and please continue.

dalepetrie's avatar

stevenb – I personally would rather live in a system where regular day to day care and emergency care were handled quickly and maybe I had to put up with a little inconvenience to get specialty care, but to never have to deal with doctor networks, clinic bills, copays, denials of service, referrals, co-insurance, deductibles, and increasing rates year on year on year. But maybe that’s just me.

Let me tell you one thing about McCain’s medical plan. He wants to give an individual $2,500, or a family of any size $5,000 in the form of a refundable tax credit, OK, fair enough. But then what he wants to do is to take what your employer pays for your healthcare, without doing anything to cut off the rising costs (10% increase yet again this year per industry averages). But McCain’s plan makes that $250k a year my employer pays into income to the employees. Now, because it’s treated as income, not only do employees have to pay for Federal, State and FICA taxes on it, but the employer has additional FICA matching taxes, higher unemployment insurance rates, higher workers com rates, and higher rates on any other benefits they might offer that are based on compensation. Suddenly, small employers who already have a hard time finding that 10% for the annual renewal increase, have to pony up another 10 to 15% cash for payroll taxes and benefits. As the cost of the benefits go up, so do the costs to the employee and employer, and nothing in McCain’s plan seeks to stop annual 10% average rate increases. Imagine someone who makes $20,000 a year, but has family coverage for which the company is paying $15,000, suddenly his income is $35,000 a year, he’s probably in a 15% tax bracket instead of a 10% bracket, this could be devastating, even w/ the 5k tax credit when you add in FICA, Federal and State taxes.

And the employer, well they don’t HAVE to offer coverage, and many small employers won’t be able to afford it. McCain however is going to give them peace of mind by saying, well, you all have this tax credit, use it to buy your own insurance on the free open market. Then they go out there and find out, well even though I had less than $5k coming out of my check when my employer subsidized this coverage, I’m going to have to come up with $18k to buy a policy for my family. How do you do that on a $20k per year salary, even w/ a $5k credit? But McCain seems to think that by letting people deal across state lines, it will get cheaper. Unfortunately, it will only be cheaper for those who never use it.

If you’re healthy as a horse, great, no problem. But what about people who have diabetes, or a thyroid condition, or a heart condition or cancer or whatever? They aren’t even going to be able to BUY insurance at ANY cost, and even if they did find a high risk plan, all the cheaper insurers are going to move to the states that have no requirement that insurance companies take you if you have a pre-existing condition, then something happens, you have no insurance, and BAM, you’re bankrupt.

I much prefer Obama’s plan which will allow people to keep the insurance they have, but which will drive down the costs for the employers, who usually charge employees a certain percentage of the monthly premium, so it will lower employee costs as well, and it will be supplemented by a national plan that is as good as what they get in Congress that anyone without insurance, or who is willing to pay for it can get. No one will lose his insurance, but everyone who doesn’t have it will have the opportunity to get affordable, high quality coverage, and it won’t disrupt the people who have insurance, but will drive their costs down.

finkelitis's avatar

@critter: interesting links. Are you aware that the first two are advocating for some version of universal care?

From the first:

“It would be much better – for both business and the American public – to get employers out of the business of providing health insurance altogether,” continued Dr. Woolhandler. If we put everyone – young and old – healthy and ill – in the same risk pool, we could save enough on bureaucracy ($154 billion) to cover all the 40 million uninsured. We could also end “job-lock” for employees and effectively control rising health costs – something no individual business can do.”
...

“National health insurance doesn’t mean spending more; it means spending wisely,” said Dr. David Himmelstein, a co-author of the study and co-founder of Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP). “We spend over $309 billion on paperwork in insurance companies, hospitals, nursing homes and doctor’s offices – at least half of which could be saved through national health insurance. We spend over $150 billion on medications—at prices 50% higher than Canada’s”.

“Universal coverage is affordable – without a big tax increase,” continued Dr. Himmelstein. “Because taxes already fund 60% of health care costs, a shift about the size of the recent tax cut ($130 billion a year) from private funding to public funding would allow us to cover all the uninsured and improve benefits for everyone else. Insurers/HMOs and drug companies buy-off our politicians with huge campaign contributions and hordes of lobbyists.”

From the second:

While part of this spending is necessary for medical system management, the wide variety of insurance plans and payer options inflicts huge amounts of extra paperwork and billing burdens on providers and institutions. The average US hospital spends 25% of its budget on billing and administration without evidence that this improves patient care.5 In fact, there is evidence that health plans with higher administrative costs deliver worse quality care.6 By contrast, Canada’s single-payer system has 1% administrative overhead costs, and even its Medicare program only consumes 4% of this total budget.7 Reducing spending on redundant bureaucracy and complicated insurance billing to Canadian levels could save as much as $140 billion annually without reducing the funds spent on care.

_______________
Uh… so what was troubling you again? The bulk of your evidence seems to support some kind of single payer model.

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