Do you pray?

I consider myself agnostic and I do not pray.

I am a non-religious atheist who does not pray. I stopped praying as a kid when I realized that I was just talking to myself.

No sense calling if I know nobody’s home. On the other hand, there are times when I really, really wish.

I don’t pray. I dont believe in god. I think when people pray it helps them work out a confusing situation. By talking it out in your head, just by giving it a shape and definition, it makes the problem seem less impossible. Maybe people see this as an answer from god, but I see it as problem solving.

No. I am agnostic.

I do not pray. Even if I did believe in a god I don’t know what I would ask her for.

@petethepothead lurve for ‘her’.

Judy prays

As long as schools give test, there will always be prayer in school.

I am not religious and no, I don’t pray.

As a devote Discordian and follower of the ever changing waters of our one and only Goddess Eris, I most definitely do pray. But last time I prayed she told me to stop bothering her, so I haven’t prayed since. So I guess I should answer no.

Now for a true story. When I was a kid growing up going to catholic school I used to think that crossing myself (ie. In the name of the father and the son and the yada yada) was like picking up a telephone and connecting to god. And then naturally I used to think that to hang up you would have to cross yourself again.

This caused all sorts of stress for me. Sometimes I would finish praying and forgot if I had picked up the ringer. So I would cross myself and say the whole prayer again. But then I was stuck, do I cross myself again and hang up appropriately or had I already hung up before and if I cross myself again would I end up leaving the ‘phone off the hook’. Sounds like a funny story looking back on it, but as a little 12 year old this was a serious concern for me. It would keep me up at night.

iits sad when no one prays anymore. i look at all the questions that have to do with God on fluther, and 99% of the responses are trashing it. it makes me sad. almost no one believes, and not only that…they mock it as if anyone who believes this universe has a creator is completely stupid and basically an idiot. you know that hurts people that believe in a God and strongly feel that life is more than just day after day and getting as much fun in as possible. why does believing that a God created this earth and has a purpose for it and a reason for everything make me an idiot?

i dont know, maybe its just me…but doesnt it take a hell of a lot more faith to believe that all this happened by chance and that the way the world works and sustains happened by a random explosion in a space that to this day i cannot figure out how it spontaneously existed…not to mention, exploded? how did whatever exploded come to be? at least christianity can answer these questions and has a reason for them that makes sense. it seems to me that believing God takes a whole lot less faith then believing the ever changing science or (man). scientists recently discovered LIVING tissue on a dinosaur bone..literal wet, red tissue. they are admitting that it is impossible to be 64 million years old and living. so they have no answer…but is this on tv? is this in the papers? no, because they would have to admit that they dont know what the hell is going on! they say that Pilot never existed, (the man who had Jesus crucified) and then they find a coin geographically accurate to where the bible says it should be with his face on it. a few years back, carbon dating was dating the layers of the ground and how many thousands of years back each foot was…they got down to some hundred thousand year mark and found….a, hold on here….Coke can. all this is just to say, cant science just be the attempt of man to find a good explanation to all of this…besides God…anything besides God, because if they admitted to a God…it would mean that they would have to change their lives. to me all this makes perfect sense. and takes a whole lot less hope in men.

@futurelaker88: I’m comfortable with not having all the answers. :)

ok thats different then. im not even trying to argue here, but im asking genuinely and seriously…how can one be satisfied in not knowing the outcome of his eternity? how you can you live happily knowing that MAYBE there is a God and MAYBE you will end up apart from him? im interested to know. think of it from the other side. what if it IS real and you die…then what?

@futurelaker88 It doesn’t make you an idiot. I asked this question because for a good part of my adult life, I guess I would be considered agnostic. About ten years ago I began to believe in…something. Not God in the conventional sense, but something that holds us all together, gives this life meaning. I am just curious if any others that don’t have mainstream religious beliefs ever pray.

@futurelaker88: I’m 99% certain that all religious beliefs are an attempt by earlier cultures to explain the unknown in terms they were capable of grasping.

The other 1% is avoiding the egomaniacal “I know and you don’t” scenario.

I’m satisfied not knowing the outcome of my eternity because I don’t believe in an eternal soul. I live for the here & now and my future on this world.

but im saying think past the “i dont believe” we can all say, i believe and i dont…but the reality is…one of those two is right….there either is a God, or there is not. so how can you ignore it to the point where you say, im pretty sure theres not so lets get on with life?

Just like you said it. I’m pretty sure, let’s get on with life.

i do not understand this logic. what on this planet can be more important then this topic, (assuming that hell is real). how can people brush it off so nonchalantly and sleep at night thinking…“yea…i think im right.” lol…but what makes your individual thought that God isnt real so concrete. people could have said for thousands of years…“im 99% sure the earth is flat man, how can it be round? no one can see it…its flat, where do you see it curve? theres NO way its round.” but i dont even have to finish it. they were 1% wrong. lol if you cant know, how can you know?

@futurelaker88 How do know that your religion is the correct one? Pascal’s Wager (i.e. might as well pray just in case God does exist) is flawed simply because there are thousands of religions (or doctrines at least).

But to answer the question, no, I don’t pray. My aunt and mother were talking about my cousin praying that her mom would win the lottery when she bought tickets. That’s the sort of thing that sickens me… like God is going to grant your “wish” to win the lottery. He’s not a genie!

i agree. prayer is not a magic way to achieve all our wants and desires, but rather a way to confess things to God, and ask for forgiveness, a way to thank Him for the great things that happen, and a way to ask him for things that we cannot do on our own that sill hold to his will.

Nope, no prayer here.

I used to, and then I realized that I didn’t believe in any gods. Even if praying was effective, the prayers of an agnostic are worthless and hypocritical.

@futurelaker88 – I don’t think anyone brushes it off. Everyone has their own battles within themselves. Also, note your inclusion of the phrase “assuming that hell is real”. By assuming this, are you not considering that your point of view is more correct than others? There are certainly many people on this thread who do not assume that hell exists. You know what they say about assumptions, right?

i pray as if God was standing right next to me, or sitting in the passenger seat of my car. i talk to Him no different than my best friend. its a personal relationship. this does not mean i hear him audibly, or see him….but it does mean i know him, and i know He knows me.

im asking you to assume, im not assuming

im asking you to assume for the sake of argument that hell is real…then what? that is my question

See, the hell thing. This is why I don’t subscribe to mainstream ‘christian’ religions and their beliefs. I do not think God (whatever that is) wants anyone to burn in hell. The hypocrisy I see in organized religions apalls me.

I pray. Even if it turns out that there is nothing beyond what’s happening here, my time in prayer represents reflection, solitude, and humility. I believe in the power of prayer, if only my own. I do, however, believe in a spiritual and religious world, and in God.

he does not. you are right. of course he does not WANT anyone to go to hell. He does however ALLOW people who choose to shove him aside for their life on earth to go there. if he MADE everyone believe in Him, it would be forced belief. He wants us to believe in Him through faith, and has put ample evidence in His existence in front of us everyday. creation, scientific discover, the bible! Jesus said in the bible “you believe because you see, blessed are those who believe and do NOT see!” He admits to a time where people will have to believe and NOT see. and i bring to your attention something else..just because you do not understand or want or believe in a hell, does not suffice as proof that there is none. if we understood everything about God, would we not be equal to him? i want a God i cannot fully understand, but I am thankful that he is a God of love and a God who cries out for those who turn their backs on Him. a God who wants all of us to acknowledge His existence and the amazing, incredible gift of life that He has given us.

@deusexmachina I do not believe in praying to win the lottery, that is horrifying. I do find myself asking for guidance, strength, courage, wisdom, clarity, compassion etc.. Excuse the pun, but prayer has been a ‘godsend’ in my life.

lol

@futurelaker88
Can I ask you a question? When your God talks to you, do you hear his voice in your mind or with your ears?

Yes. (simplelist answer yet)

i do not hear His voice at all. prayer is me talking to God, not talking back as a person. i explained how i pray above, somewhere in here. lol

@Elumas lol that was nice

@futurelaker88
Honestly, this is the type of blind faith that is bringing america back down into the dark ages. There is so much I want to talk to you about, and if you want to do it off line (not in a thread) I would love to bring it there. I’m only going to touch upon a few things here.

About your attack against science. Yes science is ever changing. We learn something new, we have to adjust what we know to make sure it fits. This is a good thing. This is the ability we have to progress. If we were to continue living with the faulty assumptions of our ancestors we would not have the computer you are using to type your fluther post.

I too used to think that science had it’s knife drawn against god. Had you asked me a few years ago, I would have totally thought science and god were on opposite sides of the ring. Until I read something that burst that bubble, and good. It’s an awful thought, but just think of the financial implications of scientific proof of god. The scientist that were to find that would be showered with grant money. There are plenty of scientists out there attempting to find proof of god. And they have not found a thing. Studies have been done. There is research to read. So the next time someone tells you that science is narrow minded and is attempting at every turn to disprove god, remember that we are all a bunch of greedy little bastards and if there was any way of getting at that grant money, they would have already found it by now.

@futurelaker88
Sorry, I guess you did say that you don’t hear him audibly.

@Noon
I might also be interested in discussing. Let me know if you want to start a chatroom.

@futurelaker88
99% is not realistic. The question specifically said they did not want to hear from religious people.

I think it is safe to say that 99% of people who pray are religious.

The idea that non-religious do not pray makes perfect sense.

Okay, no science/religion debate please. Science explains the how. Religion is the why.

its not blind faith…its christianity. perhaps the most known religion in the world, and the religion that simply believes the bible, no added content, no subtracted content. its the number 1 selling book since the beginning of time, and the most significant faith on this planet. there is a reason for that. our country was founded on christian morals and beliefs, everytime i mention that someone says its false, but..um, its not. and we are going into the dark ages at the EXACT TIME THAT WE ARE STRAYING FROM IT!!! not going toward it!!! we are removing God from all aspects of society, and things are getting worse by the day! how can we not see this guys!?!?

but science doesnt explain how…it tries and fails ALL the time. and if this is true…then may i ask one simple question to science?

how did something come from nothing?

@futurelaker88 It’s easy to say science “fails” because it’s trying to use logic to describe our surroundings. Religion has it easy : everything is because of God! Of course they get it right “100%” of the time… because it has no way of validating itself.

I’d rather have science fail sometimes (i.e. for the time being) than have such a simplistic answer for everything.

@futurelaker88
You made the assumption that the contemporary scientific explanation infers that something came from nothing. As far as we know, matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

but why? that sounds good at first, but think about it. why would you rather have a belief that doesnt know, then one that does? lol thats how i take your last argument. and God isnt always the answer either. someone above just asked, how can a loving god send someone to hell….we have to have answers for issues just like everyone else

@Vinifera7 and ok, so you are proving my point. how did everything begin with matter than could not have been created?

ugh

@futurelaker88
Because we don’t know. Neither do you. Neither does anybody. You are claiming to have an explanation that is equally unexplainable.

@futurelaker88
how did something come from nothing?

@DrBill
Evolutionary theory explains how things evolve, not how things come from nothing, which doesn’t happen!

@futurelaker88
Haha, if only it were that simple, huh? Science doesn’t know everything, but it does know a lot using only what we have: logic and evidence. Religion claims it knows everything with no logic or evidence—see the difference?

The bible is a book of stories that were hand picked. Not fact. Stories. There are plenty of people who don’t believe in god that live a good life, not just “living day after day and getting as much fun in as possible” as you said. My goal in life is to be the best I can be, same as your goal. Don’t say it’s sad just because we don’t blindly follow a religion that has caused more harm in the world than good.

@Vinifera7
you really should read the article before commenting on it.

The bible never said “made out of nothing” Eve was made from a rib, Adam was made from 100 lbs of clay, etc.

ok well i guess its impossible to cause any kind of a movement in anyones hearts here. its funny how you call my belief “blind religion” isnt yours then “blind anti-religion” you guys are as firm in your beliefs as i am. we are no different

i started to read it, and it says the same things ive heard for 20 years

lol!

@futurelaker88 I’m not blindly anti-religious—in fact, I don’t know if there’s a God or not. I don’t presume to know. You, however, do. Most atheists, I’d wager, wouldn’t bet their life on God not existing.

all it is to me is simply the following without saying it

“there cannot be a God, we cannot prove it so lets move on because id rather not get caught up in some kind of serious argument that deals with something with no TANGIBLE evidence. and on top of that, if i admit that a God exists, especially the God of the bible, that would mean i have to change everything and admit that i am wrong about everything, so lets just say that this information at this period of time is as accurate as we can get, so lets not fight it, and just accpet the facts of today

That’s enough of that. If you want to discuss it further send me a pm.

Faith is supposed to be about believing the unbelievable. If you’re comfortable with that, then good for you! Many people here on Fluther do not, and therefore feel free to treat religious conversation as any other – open to debate.

However, I don’t think that this question, which asks for a simple “yes” or “no” (with perhaps some anecdotes) is the place for such a debate. This has devolved into a simple “I’m right!”/“No, I’m right!” conversation. We can do way better here, folks.

@Vinifera7 First of all, thanks for the fluther add!
Secondly, I hate to have conversations like this… well, like atheists/agnostics/whatever that are feverishly defending their beliefs are seen as “attacking” people who do believe, but it doesn’t apply in the other direction. It’s just frustrating.

it also doesnt help that im the only person from my side. im used to it, but just realize that i have tons of people who think im an idiot here, and i have to keep answering because i leave, all of you will be thinking “see, he gave up…had no answers. i stay to prove that i am fighting for something that is more than just “blind faith”

@shadling21 where do you get faiths definition as “believing in the unbelievable” if i have faith that when i drop something out of a building it will fall, thats pretty believable to me

faith = trust

I don’t think you’re an idiot. I respect the fact that you make a decision and stick to it. I don’t care what religion someone is, I don’t base my opinion of them based on anything but their own behavior. I think a lot of problems could be solved if people left their personal beliefs at home and respected the fact that nobody knows for sure.

@deusexmachina – Too true.
@futurelaker88 – You’re not the only religious member here. If you look at other threads, you will notice people of many faiths. For example, Judi is a prominent member of the Fluther community, and she is Christian. Have you considered that maybe your style of argument is preventing others from joining “your side”? Are there even sides here? We should all be aiming to learn and grow together here.

@futurelaker88: the whole “lone persecuted Christian” shtick cracks me up. The USA is inundated with Christians. I only know of one openly atheist elected official.

@PupnTaco No! Christianity is under attack!!
Yeah, right.

it cant be preventing. my “style” is the same of any true christian. stating what we believe and asking questions about what we dont understand. how can any true christian be afraid to join a debate like this? i am not doing or saying anything that is extreme or condescending or anything even close. that statement seemed completely out of place to me

it is! lol people who claim to be christians arent always true born again christians. this is most of the problem most people who claim to be are not biblical christians and this is why people think we are everywhere. if christians were everywhere, the world would not be the way it is. the media is SO biased, and the world is so full of advertised sin, that anyone who knows what true christianity is, would know, our gov. is FAR from it!

OK, I’m gonna go watch the home box now.

lol im about to go too

@futurelaker88
Actually, faith = gullibility.

@Vinifera7 – Oh, Vinifera, you just know how to calm the raging bull, don’t you? ;)

it would be incredible if anyone here was able to read “mere christianity” by C.S. Lewis

it would be smart to read this book, its written by an atheist who in his attempts to disprove God, found out that it is impossible to do, and not only that, he found that there was WAY more evidence to prove that God is real. i ask that ONE person here reads this book and thats all

this is an incredible book that is GUARANTEED to raise eyebrows. PLEASE check it out

Read it. Also read St Augustine’s “Confessions,” Thomas a Kempis’ “The Cloud of Unknowing,” Ellis’ “Middle Eastern Mythology”, the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, Confucius’ “Analects,” the Tao te Ching, Campbell’s “Masks of God”.... and dozens more.

And I’m still an atheist. Nyah nyah.

Not only do I not pray; I have never prayed.

I do, however, wish people well and think about them, and imagine them getting healthy. That’s about the closest I get to prayer.

Go Dave!

@futurelaker88
I promise to read “Mere Christianity” if you promise to read a book of my choosing. Do you agree?

sure. name it. i will

“The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins or “The Demon-Haunted World” by Carl Sagan.

@futurelaker88
There are just so many. But I guess if I had to pick one. “The God Delusion”—Richard Dawkins. The unfortunate thing is that he is quite harsh, and would be hard for a believer to read. The reason I recommend it is that he does go over just about ever one of your arguments and is a wonderful introduction to atheism. It is a wonderful read, I just don’t want you to dismiss him because he is an angry atheist. He has amazing things to say, and says them quite well. Also he cites all of his sources.

I would also recommend “God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist ”—Victor J. Stenger. I only just recently read it, but in all honesty it reads like a text book. But it is a quick read because nearly 1/3 is pages of works cited.

Either of these great, because they are coming from two very different points of view. Stenger a Physicist. So he answers all of those big bang, mater from “nothing” questions. And Dawkins an Evolutionary biologist. He answers all of the how did we get here, why is my eye so complicated, why am I moral.

I pray this thread comes to an end

While I have absolutely no use for organized religion of any kind, I am not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that there is no God. Most often I think there is no one to pray to, but sometimes I pray anyway :)

I am catholic but I am not religious. I only go to mass when I’m visiting my parents over the weekend. However, I pray every single night before I go to bed. I pray for my family and people close to me and I give thanks for what I’m given. I think praying is really conforting when you just need to “talk.”

I keep people and things in my thoughts I don’t pray, I am agnostic.

I am an atheist but lately in my meditations I have been experimenting with the Buddhist prayers to end suffering for myself and for others. The idea is not that praying will automatically cause these things to come about but that is a way of establishing a connection to myself and to others.

@Noon i read the God Delusion. it seemed to me to focus on everything that every atheist ive ever read focuses on. its all based on the same question that they cannot answer which is this in a nutshell….“if there is a loving God, how can there be so much evil in the world?” thats the premise of the entire book. we have answers for that, so that doesnt phase me one bit. and something you might want to check out, theres a movie/documentary with ben stein called “expelled.” in the end, ben stein (a believer in God, but not a christian) interviews richard Dawkinds. its incredible that Richard signed release forms on this because he stumbles so bad, and not even that…he ends up admitting to the fact that yes there might be a God….right in the movie! he says “it would be a very unpleasant prospect” if it were the God of the bible, but then after he is questioned harshly about the beginning of life, he gets VERY nervous and says something to the extent of this….aliens came down (advanced aliens) from another planet, and planted the “seed of life” on this planed and we all evolved from there advanced placement of life!!’ this is richard dawkins…he is like the spokesperson for atheism!!! i will check out some of the other books you mentioned, but u should look at the interview…its probably on youtube. thanks for the recomendations!

@futurelaker88 “We” have answer for that, haha. Ahem. Of course there “might” be a God, Richard Dawkins doesn’t have any more proof than you do that one does (not) exist. There is no spokesperson for atheism. Indeed he is one of the more well-known because of his books, but what’s your point about his interview? I’m fairly sure he was joking about the aliens visiting earth, actually. You know nothing of my work!

Let’s look at your (collective?) “answers” for the problem of evil, which is defined as the contradiction “that if God exists then he is omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good, and that evil exists in the world.” So the two possible “defenses” are a) that God is not perfectly good, or b) evil is an illusion. And I don’t think you’re ready to claim either of those.

So what are your answers, if not the ones above?

To answer the original question:

Yes, and I feel no need to justify or apologize.

@deusexmachina NEITHER is true. its as simple as this… God created man with FREE WILL. so that we would have the choice to obey him or disobey him. this way, to love him would be our choice, thus making it the only form of TRUE love. if He created us “programmed” to be perfect and love him and obey everything He asked, we would be robots. So the end-all is that God does not CAUSE evil, or MAKE thinks happen, but that he ALLOWS evil to take place because if He stopped it, he would be preventing free will from existing! think about it, how can God stop everything bad from happening. the only way would be to not allow us to make choices. this is very simple, and does not touch on either of your options

@futurelaker88 Yet he created humans and gave them opportunities to create evil… I mean, if he was truly benevolent he wouldn’t do this… (i.e. there would be no bad choices to make.) The “thought” of killing someone, for instance, could have been made impossible in God’s universe, right?

It’s just like Eden: God CREATED that stupid tree in the first place. “OMG GUYZ DONT EAT THAT PLZ” ... right.

lol, is that from the BlackBerry edition of the Bible?

of course! why is this hard to believe at all!?!? you are not God, how can you say what God would and would not do? He can do what he wants, and creating free will is not creating evil, or making something evil, its ALLOWING evil to be a possible option, because without the option to disobey, we could do nothing BUT love God. how would it feel if your child had a “love daddy” switch on her back, and when u asked she didnt say it, but when u switch it to on, she says “i love you daddy!” it would be illegitimate love. it would mean nothing!! you want her to CHOOSE to love you because you deserve to be loved! ...right? same thing here.

@futurelaker88 It’s important to remember that YOU are not God either ;)

Well, why did God make the universe? Heaven is just worshipping Him endlessly… I’m pretty sure that’s the definition of an egomaniac.

@fireside no, the lolcat bible!

rolls eyes, stops following

@futurelaker88
I’m sorry to see that you were not able to get past Dawkins’ style writing. It’s also unfortunate that you considered the book dedicated to “the problem of evil”. He really only spends a chapter on this and is very quick to point out the faults in the arguments for evil. He speaks on many more topics.

Our forefathers being deists
The not-science used to support intelligent design
The failed proofs of prayer
The universality of morality

The book speaks on much more than the problem of evil. As for expelled. I’ve seen it, and thought the Dawkins interview was badly edited. But I’ll admit that dawkins didn’t sound his best in that movie. But one key thing that I think you are missing is what an atheist means when they say “There could be a god”. I think most atheists when pressured would finally come down to having to admit there could be a god. The reason that we don’t say it that way is because we have done the reading, and the logical reasoning to figure out what this kind of god looks like. And he is most definitely not the god of the judeo-christan-islamic teachings.

When I, as an atheist, say there could be a god. I admit to the possibility of one of two gods. Either a god that started this whole mess (in a way that made his starting of it completely empirically unprovable) and has since not shown himself or interfered with the universe. Or another god, one that has deliberately hidden himself from us and has chosen to be unprovable. So sure, I will admit there could be a god, but when I say that, when Dawkins says that when other atheists say that, realize that the god we admit is a possibility is not the god you are praying to.

This also goes for the alien thing. I think what Dawkins was doing is similar to what several atheists have done with parody religions. Yes aliens is a possibility. A flying spaghetti monster is also a possibility. The point is that anything that is not provable has just as much validity as a god that is not provable.

some of those are good points. im glad to see that you saw expelled. most atheists i know refuse to read/watch anything from a “godly” perspective. that says a lot about your willingness to study and find truth. i appreciate your conversation. thanks!

this is getting to far away from the question.
Time to stop watching.

@futurelaker88
I spent 14 years in a catholic school. In high school the bible (New American) was a required text book. I was encourage to debate religion at home, and continue to do so. I’m a firm believer that if you have a belief or opinion, you should be able to defend your point and defend it well. At a time in my life, that meant knowing the bible in and out. After some thought, and more reading, it’s now defending my atheist beliefs. Regardless of what your beliefs are, you should not only be able to stick to them in the face of opposing beliefs, but be able to defend and debate them logically.

@futurelaker88
Oh and just for fun, if some of them were good points. Could you please point out to me the bad ones?

Yes I pray, no religion here just a relationship in Spirit and Truth with my God.

I am an atheist. I do not pray. (What would be the point?)

I’m agnostic and I do not pray.

No, I do not pray. I do not see the logic from any angle.

As an atheist it makes no sense. If someone believes in an omniscient loving deity it makes no sense.

@futurelaker88 I can only speak for myself when I say I don’t give a lot of thought to how intelligent you are (eg. I don’t label you as an idiot) or any other religious person at fluther. Lots of intelligent/knowledgeable and not so intelligent/knowledgeable people are in a similar boat when it comes to faith and their arguments for it. So all I can do is listen to your arguments for god or against atheism and weigh them on their merits.

Why not have a think and start a new question in which you lay out all your objections to disbelief in a deity, or perhaps all you arguments for your belief in a deity. Whatever. If you want to understand why I and others do not believe in that which you find so essential, a separate thread might be a better venue for the discussion.

Of the people that don’t pray, does anyone meditate?
just wondering

I don’t pray or meditate. I think.

i’m ‘agnostic’ at best, and i keep it simple. though i don’t know what’s out there, if there is something, or someone, out there, i’d like to be polite. so when something i’ve been hoping/wishing for happens, i’ll whisper a ‘thank you’. when i really want something to go my way, i’ll say a quiet ‘please’. if there is a god, and it wants to damn me to hell because i don’t know that it’s there, at least i’ll go down as a polite little devil.