Do you consider this art?

i don’t really understand why she’s so upset. i mean, having a c-section isn’t exactly my dream either, but is there something i’m missing? her baby is okay, right? and the doctors haven’t done anything morally wrong to her, have they?

but to answer the original question, i do consider it art, especially since she feels, for some reason, a lot of disturbance over it. clearly she’s put a lot of emotion into it, whether she’s being overdramatic or not. i guess it’s important to her, so i don’t feel like i can judge it – i can’t relate whatsoever.

i am absolutely clueless about anything of medical nature, especially having to do with childbirth

I can’t see it. I get this message: Access to this web page is restricted at this time.

Reason:
The category “Tasteless” is filtered.

————————————————————————————————————————

@scamp Is that what your work has it blocked as?? Weird!

@tiffyandthewall I think a part of why she feels violated is because a lot of csections are unnecessary nowadays.

“_Cesarean section deliveries continue to rise, now accounting for almost a third of all births. Health officials say that rate is much higher than is medically necessary. About 34 percent of births to black women were by C-section, more than any other racial group. But geographically, the percentages were highest in Puerto Rico, at 49 percent, and New Jersey, at 38 percent.”
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-health/20090318/MED.Baby.Boomlet/

here’s another article on recent csections: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1880665-1,00.html

@scamp – Is that sarcasm?

Uh, yes, it is art. Why is that the main question?

I guess if she felt the C-section was unnecessary and unnatural, and missed out on the chance to immediately hold her baby, and that was very important to her, then yes, she is justified in feeling “violated” (though I don’t think she uses that word to describe how she feels). She can feel however she wants to feel, and express these feelings through art if she wishes.

Who’s to say whether or not she is selfish?

i meant to put a disclaimer: i think c-sections are a wonderful, life saving procedure. just because i do not agree with it being used excessively and unnecessarily does not mean i think every woman that gets one is to blame, nor do i judge them

@shadling21 I made it the main question because I wasn’t sure if I asked a question asking people how they felt about something, was against guidelines or not.

I’ve had two c-sections. Both were very necessary.

My first live birth – after several miscarriages and a still birth, was pretty traumatic. The c-section was to save my life and my daughter’s life. My BP was sky rocketing, my daughter’s was dropping and fast.

I failed to progress past 7cm, after being in labor for well over a day – actually 3 days. The first day, they slowed my contractions, but they wouldn’t stop. The second day, they finally decided to start a slow drip to induce labor. The third day, all hell broke loose. I wanted to deliver my baby vaginally. I had a hard time accepting that I couldn’t deliver her the “normal” way, but what I got in return was a beautiful baby girl. Sure, there were times when I was depressed about it, but that was also during my baby blues days.

My son’s birth was a c-section and was before his due date. His heart rate was dropping and nothing was working. It was necessary to save his life. I had no problems with this one. My concern was the safety of my baby.

What this person is not saying is why the c-section was done – unless I missed something, I don’t see the reason for the c-section. Was it done to save her life? The OB’s first concern is their patient, not the baby, as some patients think. Of course they do everything they can for the baby, but the woman is their patient. For lack of a better term, the baby is the by-product of a successful delivery. The expected outcome. Did they perform the c-section because the baby was in jeopardy? Was there something physically preventing the safe delivery of this baby. She talks of being violated but fails to explain the circumstance.

C-sections have risen, some due to scheduling by the parents. Some because of fear on the doctor’s side of a malpractice suit. In NC, there is a shortage of OB/GYNs and the reason sited, enormous malpractice insurance costs. Of course, as it was explained by my Ob/gyns practice, they only do c-sections for life-saving reasons or if was deemed, during the pregnancy, that the person could not deliver the baby, vaginally.

From what I understand VBACs are on the rise, vaginal deliver after c-section. Doctors are starting to encourage women to try a VBAC. For me, it wasn’t safe, I had pregnancy induced high blood pressure and was starting to have serious complications.

Is this art? I guess – not my kind, but it is. She is using a medium to express her feelings. Is it justified? I guess, in her mind, it is. I would like to her more of what happened – as it is, I pretty much just want to say she should celebrate the life of her child and move on. That’s from a person who struggled to have both of her children.

@cak I can understand your disappointment at first, not getting the vaginal delivery..but with how necessary the c-sections were, thank god we have that technology!
I saw this site a while ago, and there used to be a page telling the entire story. For some reason it’s not on there anymore, and the only back story you get is what is written below each picture. Not enough details to determine the reasoning for the c-section.

@casheroo – make no mistake that I left the hospital thrilled that my babies where delivered in the safest method possible. I somewhat understand her sadness – but violated, I can’t agree with her. I just wish I knew more. I think there is a point where you have to let go and look at what you get in return. A life. You brought forth a life. What in the world could be better than that – to me? Nothing. Ok…well, seeing them through to adulthood…that’s a good thing, too! ;)

I guess I don’t understand the continued anger and I then find her “art” repulsive. I don’t find the need to continue that anger, when she did have a child.

The coloring page, is very disturbing – but I guess, to some, it is art.

Interesting question – I truly would have never seen that website.

@cak I didn’t mean to imply you weren’t thrilled.

Here’s all I could scrounge up:
an interview with the artist
and her old disclaimer

@casheroo oh i see, thank you. (:
i can see her being upset because it certainly wouldn’t be my first choice in procedures, especially if it’s unnecessary, though i still don’t understand her overwhelming anger about it. but hey, i’ve never given birth, so maybe it just couldn’t make sense to me.
i do think she should be too happy that her child is okay – and that she’s okay – to worry herself into a tizzy about the procedure used after the fact.

okay i found this quote on another site, which was apparently on the art site
-
“Pictures are based on memories and impressions of my 2nd cesarean in 2005. I had a cesarean a few years back and a repeat for NO reason other than the fact that no OB wants to support vbacs anymore in my area. Blaming each other, hospitals, insurers and finally patients for making it too big of a liability issue. Not wanting an unassisted homebirth and no support from my surrounding (community care providers), I gave in to the pressure and now hate myself for it.”

I loved the site, loved the art, loved what I think she is trying to say… For me, having a child is one of the most extraordinary things in this world… when I had mine, I put a lot of effort into making it work so that he could be born the most natural way. And I did it! He was born in water… no meds or drugs administered… But I do think that nowadays there are a lot of cases in which doctors just act because of what they will get, their own benefits (c-sections are more expensive, so they earn much more) and also most of the society, because of the lack of information or the information they get from advertisements (from big corporations) do as they’re told (buy this, go there, eat this…) I’m not saying that it’s wrong, there should be some cases in which c-sections should be done, but as the artist says… the percentage is way too high.
My sister did all she could to have her baby the same way I did… and she couldn’t because the doctor said it wasn’t possible… so she had a cesarean. My dad who is also a doctor said it could have been done the natural way, but he wasn’t there to intervene. So I get how the artist feels violated… because my sister felt that way too! She even wanted to sue!

Um, personally it seems a bit like she’s just wallowing in it. Most artists do a piece or a series as catharsis and can move on. This is, I dunno. That’s a lot of commitment to woe is me. I hope she can move past it, but it does qualify as art by most definitions. Even if I don’t like the subject or the work itself.

Meh, I could do without it.

I’m actually kind of annoyed by it the more I look through it, I personally don’t think it’s art as it looks like she just took different ideas and images that she saw or experienced and popped a baby in and a few cuts. Now, one could make the argument that this ordeal is always with her no matter what, but the impression she’s giving is just… I guess it just seems like a one trick pony kind of thing.

I too don’t really understand this woman’s outrage and frankly her story reeks of a sense of entitlement. Sure, it would be cool if doctors wanted to participate in her profoundly spiritual birthing process—but like, that’s her deal, not her doctor’s.

I wonder, and this is probably a byproduct of some projects I’m working on, if this isn’t some kind of weird hormonal thing. Like, giving birth releases lots of crazy shit into your body; maybe in her case the hormone cocktail kind of mimicked something like PTSD, and she pinned it on the c-section because it happened at the same time.

@everval I’ve been told by multiple OBs that they are not trained to do natural births, they do surgery and high risk births. The OB I wanted wasn’t on call that day, so I got a c-section happy OB..we had to repeatedly tell him that I would not be having a c-section. He even gave me a time limit on how long I could push. I got my son out right as they were about to prep the room for a c-section. It took 3 hours of pushing, but I did it.
I think people disregard the emotional state of the mother, just because she get’s a child out of it. That, of course, is the purpose of birth, but the mother’s emotional well being should be considered as well.
I think some women are more affected by having to have a c-section, and I don’t think it’s anyones place to judge why they feel the way they do. If I wanted a VBAC, and no doctor would do it..basically forcing me into a repeat c-section, lessening my chance of having the amount of children I desire…I’d be pissed too. I would not sue, but I would have driven to a place where they would do a VBAC.

I guess that I feel no one has the right to tell someone else how to feel. She has the right to feel any way she wants.

Her feelings are genuine, and they are strong.

Caesarian sections are major surgery. They take weeks to recover from.

Ok, I see where she is upset, but wow. At some point, you have to move on. It is a shame and should be criminal the the insurance companies have such a hand in decisions of what is done. They weigh the risks and decide what would cost less money. I still feel like she just needs to move on.

There is a level of disappointment that you cannot hold your baby right after a c-section, you are strapped down. You don’t have control over your body, but you are also still mid-surgery. There are still risks and the baby needs to be evaluated. She misses a moment, but in return, she receives a lifetime of moments, that no one else will have. Actually, she’s already experienced moments that no one, not even the father will ever have. That first fluttery movement of the baby – the time when you really know there is a life growing inside you. When the baby has a nice case of the hiccups, I remember thinking, “what in the world is going on??” Only to find out my baby had the hiccups. Feeling the kicking (good and bad, I still swear my daughter used my ribs as monkey bars), the moving and reactions to music. Those are things that no one else will be able to remember, in the same way you do, when you have that life growing inside. Sure, the dad can feel the kicks from the outside, but it’s different, you know?

It’s sad to me, that she is focusing on what she perceives as a negative and not looking at the true positive of the c-section. I wish her luck and hope that, one day, she can let go of the anger.

I mean, really?

Way to cater to irrational emotions, you got a baby and you’re alive. The team who took the thing out is probably pretty decent and good about what they do.

I just don’t understand the response, I agree with Marina, but I don’t have to like it. :)

What if Frida Kahlo had never painted her trauma?

This woman ain’t no Frida. And I have a whole lotta beef with Frida.

@tinyfaery – painting the trauma is one thing – but finding a way to move on and not be paralyzed by that trauma is another.

I don’t deny the right to paint the trauma, express the trauma, but at some point, be able to move on. I’m not saying don’t stand up for something you believe in, but I think if it is that traumatic for someone, still – help is in order. I feel the same about other traumatic things. I was raped – it paralyzed me, but at some point, I had to find a way to move forward. I sought a lot of help. I just wonder how much of this anger about what she perceives as being violated is something that her child will pick up on, in the future.

You don’t have to like it. I think this is crap, but to millions of others it is art. You don’t have to appreciate the theme, but that doesn’t negate its meaning. And for us to judge from superficial knowledge based on paintings and few musings is a bit presumptive. This might very well be this woman’s catharsis.

I’m shocked at the number is all, and the quality. As I said, most I know and for myself, art is something you can use to work through pain. Most of us never want to go back to that subject once we’ve dealt with it for 30+ hours. that makes me believe she isn’t progressing, she’s wallowing.

Well that’s her choice. Why judge? She is not asking anything from you, personally.

not a Pollock fan, either. My son does the same work…he gets a hug, not thousands of dollars.

I agree that it’s art – but I still wonder if she isn’t allowing herself to move forward. It’s just not my cup of tea. That’s all.

@tinyfaery – when an artist puts work out there, surely they are aware that there will be some level of feedback. To me, it is almost expected. I’m sure she reaches people that identify with her and I guess that is a good thing. Just as she reaches someone like me that hopes that she can find a way to move forward. People react to art. It reaches people on different levels. It angers some, while others “get” it.

@cak I agree. But I refuse to judge her because of it.

I’m not judging her, I have an opinion that was formed based on her work. I have no opinion on her as a person, I just think her work indicates someone who cannot move on.

I do consider it art. Whether or not I like it doesn’t matter, art is art.

I can understand why she’s so pissed. My best friend just gave birth a couple weeks ago and we were having conversations about how quickly and easily doctors want to give C-Sections now. Doctors are not patient anymore and they completely disregard the experience of giving birth and it’s absolutely disgusting. When giving birth now, it’s more like waiting in line at a fast food restaurant.

I consider that art as much as i consider the painting that was painted with SHIT! Art.

This sounded a bit judgmental Just sayin’.

Yes, it is art. It may be expressing a feeling that you as the viewer does not share, but it is art. My impression is three-fold: the artist is a skilled graphic artist, she had a normal birth the first time and feels that she was forced into a c-section the second time, and this woman’s OB scores a complete zero in rapport with the patient.

Yes, c-sections can be vital, life-saving surgeries. But also yes, many c-sections are performed when a vaginal delivery is quite possible. And yes, some c-sections are performed because the doctor prefers it that way no matter what the patient prefers or is capable of accomplishing.

Some doctors are self-centered idiots who do what will allow them to treat the most patients in the least amount of time and bill the highest amount. Some doctors, no matter how caring they are, simply cannot build a relationship with specific patients. Most doctors are wonderfully caring and highly trained care-givers who consider their patients preferences as well as their needs.

Some patients are deliberately treated as if they are stupid and should have no input to their medical care. Some patients have major psychological problems the predate their relationship with their physician. Most patients understand why procedures are done and agree with or at least accept the doctor’s reasoning.

I have run into both kinds of doctors. Fortunately, the nasty ones are relatively few. However, childbirth is a very emotionally charged subject since all of the patients are female, many of the doctors are male, and most midwives are female and looked down on by many doctors.

wow that is really creepy…. but she should by happy how she and her baby survived the birth. she needs to get over it.

i think it “is” art, and here’s why (and sorry for the repetition):

she is working through her powerful emotions (and usually anything and everything is powerful it is related to pregnancy, childbirth, and children) and using a medium of her choice. she could have written poems. or even written an essay, or an educational pamphlet, all of which hold special meaning to the person creating them.

this comment about “getting over it” is really horrible. it is not easy to “get over” a major surgery, her child being stolen away from her, and her being helpless to retrieve her baby. how is it any different for someone who makes art about a death in war. should they just “get over” their post traumatic stress syndrome? no one would ever say that to a soldier, so to say that to a mom who has these feelings is down right inconsiderate and mean.

yes, her child is ok, that is not what the art is about. someone could have a healthy child and be unhappy or even scarred by a traumatic event. she never said she is unhappy about her child. in fact her art says just the opposite. she was so happy about her child and the doctors took her baby and didn’t let her see her baby until 5 hours and 33 minutes after the birth.

I’m a man so I’ll leave the whole “violated” thing alone.

Are the images art? I imagine that depends on who is viewing them. I like to put together collage and find the pictures that she posted very interesting to say the least. I could definitely find a use for their despairing, disillusioned qualities. The choice of color in and of itself is vaguely disturbing.

I think anything that one deems art is art. Whether others agree or care is a different story, but based on whether it is, in fact, art. I’d have to say yes.

@tinyfaery: That particular piece I think is a bit over dramatic. And yes, I’ll judge that one. I don’t agree with the portrayal. I understand she’s a woman who feels hurt by her experiences, and I don’t begrudge her feeling badly about that. I just don’t agree with a victim mentality, and that’s what I see in that image.

Its is art. Of course. Personally, I think it’s good art. It’s emotive and well executed. I don’t believe she is “wallowing”. Art can be very cathartic (thus allowing a person to move on) and it is also a way to translate our feelings and opinions to others on a very visceral level. She feels strongly about this topic and is putting a strong message across – whichever way you feel – she makes you think about it. I can’t see how this takes away from her happiness at having her child (unless I missed something written).

That amount, that graphic, without the tone changing at all seems like wallowing. There’s no progression.

I don’t think it’s art and I appreciate varied art forms from the controversial (Piss Christ by Serano) to the asthetically lovely Hudson Valley School.(Nature and the Nation Durand). The work of this artist does not seem to be either provocative or aesthetic. Certainly it’s graphic and illustrative. I think it’s naive but she has artistic acumen most certainly. And with the more “tasteless” subjects it has to be very groundbreaking because most people are not going to hang this kind of stuff in their living room.

Art is so individual. What one person thinks is art another does not. What one finds graphic or aesthetic another may not. A definition of “Art”? ...Difficult, perhaps impossible to clearly define. I believe it’s an age old question. Many believe it to be just the product of human creativity which by that definition would include a whole variety of things from math to drawing.

I do think there are subtle differences in the course of her art but only she would know if there was progression for herself – as the observer we may or may not recognize it.

And it must be somewhat provocative as we are discussing it on Fluther! :)

I would be bummed if I had to have a C-section when/if I have children. It seems odd to me that it’s considered so normal these days. I know women who aren’t even having complications who have their C-section date picked out. I disagree with the idea of planning a C-section merely for convenience, but I understand that it’s necessary in many situations (breech babies, other complications). Possibly this particular lady felt that her C-section was unecessary and that her desires to have a natural birth were not listened to? It seems to me like she disliked the idea of being separated from her baby right after the birth. I also get the feeling she felt that the whole process was very clinical and unnatural. I’ve heard this complaint from many women who have had not only C-sections, but hospital births in general.

Regardless, this was obviously a traumatic experience for this woman and I am of the opinion that she has every right to express her negative feelings about it through her art.

So yes, I consider it art.

@essieness I didn’t see my son for four hours…and I had a vaginal delivery :( I got to hold him for a little while. But they take them away, scrub them and what not. I’m not letting that happen with the next. The after-birth bath is completely unnecessary, and it keeps you from getting crucial time to breastfeed

@casheroo That’s what I hear… It seems odd to me that they whisk the baby away during that crucial bonding period. A close friend of mine had a home birth and just loved the experience. It seems to me that hospitals have taken the natural out of child bearing. Why does it have to be such a clinical process??

It’s art if the “artist” says it’s art. It might not be to you, but it is to its creator.

I believe she has every right to be upset, though it almost seems like she’s having deeper problems than just “being upset.” She seems sort of messed up by the whole thing.

I had a very unnecessary c-section. There were no complications. It was forced on my by a doctor who was just tired of waiting for my labor to end. I’m very bitter about it, but I’m more happy that my son is awesome. We’re trying to get pregnant again and we are switching doctors. My new doctor is supportive of VBAC.

@essieness I could never do a homebirth, I’m all about the epidural. lol. I love natural things…but the pain was too much for me. I’m going to try hypnobabies with the next, but I know I’ll still get an epidural. They’re amazing.

@ubersiren aww, hugs! I hope you get your VBAC! Good for you, for doing research and finding a doctor that will help. I’ve thought about seeing if I could get a midwife, that will deliver the baby, but still get an epidural and have a hospital birth….that’s doable, right?

@asmonet…Progression to what? Ascension? Redemption? Closure? Rapture? I believe the images remain static because real life is often static, barren of artistic license as it is.

Remember, one artist’s wallowing in another artist’s introspect.

@ubersiren
It’s art if the “artist” says it’s art.
I guess that why we value art with multimillion dollar figures and works of art are hung in museums and can transform society? Because someone just said it’s art? It’s the only discipline that is consistently denigrated on nothing other than conjecture. There are standards and considerations in art as in any other study.
Transformative art by Frida Kahlo (las dos Fridas 1939) through anguish that established an example and a type of standard for this almost 70 years ago

@Blondesjon: There’s no progression, period. No change, no story, just the same image over and over. It’s not static, it’s stagnant.

Maaan, when I went to school it was trial by fire.
People don’t understand that when you study art as a vocation, you are consistently subject to a critique by your peers. Everything you do is slapped on a wall and the group speaks. That’s what makes you dig deep.

i don’t see why “no progression” has anything to do with whether or not it is art. it can be art, just the kind of art that you don’t like.

I never said it wasn’t art. I merely entered into a discussion with my opinion on the work itself.

@asmonet…that’s why i used the word static to describe it’s unchanging nature

I merely wondered what you expected it to progress to.

I think it’s a solid body of work around a powerful theme. She picks up on different aspects of the trauma in each work. I agree with those who say there is little progression. But I think there is a breadth of emotional content that is admirable.

One of the difficulties with the link is that all we see are the pieces the artist has done on her c-section. We don’t know what else she has done or even if this work served as a catharsis for her and she has moved on. All we know is her opinion at the time she created these works.

In addition, rather than being static these pictures are also an example of how an artist plays with an image again and again until it has said everything the artist needs it to say. If those of you in this discussion feel you had a c-section because you and your baby needed one and that your doctors were caring and supportive throughout, then that is wonderful. However, not everyone has that experience. Apparently, this artist did not.

Artists are like poets and writers of literature. They express their emotions and experiences in their work. Sometimes these expressions resonate with the viewer and sometimes they don’t. Also, once those emotions and ideas have been expressed they often move on to other, completely different work. For all we know this artist has gone on to other themes in works we don’t see on this web page.

While I have never had a c-section, I have dealt with gynecologists who were insensitive, impatient, non-communicative, and possibly even a bit mentally disturbed. I have also dealt with wonderful ones. All of them have many patients, so at least some of those patients may have had bad experiences just as I did with the insensitive doctors. Remember this joke: “What do they call the person who graduates last in their medical school class? Doctor.” The point is that there are many doctors out there. Some are amazing, most are excellent, but some would do better in another line of work.

And finally, this art is part of the ICAN website, the International Cesarean Awareness Network. The message of this organization is that it appears that twice as many c-sections are being done in the US than probably are necessary, or to quote their web site: “ICAN is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to improve maternal-child health by preventing unnecessary cesareans through education, providing support for cesarean recovery and promoting vaginal birth after cesarean.” Their goal is not to prevent c-sections, but to prevent women from being forced into c-sections that are medically unnecessary. Hence, the choice of images.

It is possible that the artist is a member of ICAN and made the images specifically for ICAN for their use. Hence, she created a large number of similar but separate pieces for their use.

In any case, it is a free country and we are all free to express our opinions. However it is worth noting that studies such as http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1508965 have discovered that c-section rates tend to rise dramatically when insurance pays for them but infant survival rates seem to stay the same. In addition, there appears to be a link between increased maternal complications and increased c-section rates, even when the c-section is not medically necessary but is chosen for other reasons unrelated to health.

And there is this: “According to data reported by individual countries, seven industrialized countries or territories had infant mortality rates that were half the rate of the United States or less. Hong Kong had the lowest rate (2.3 per 1,000), followed by Sweden (2.8 per 1,000). Overall, the United States was ranked 28th in the world.” http://mchb.hrsa.gov/mchirc/chusa_05/healthstat/infants/0307iimr.htm This in spite of a relatively high c-section rate. If c-section is the answer to having healthy babies then the US is doing something else wrong.

So the c-section can be a marvelous tool when there are medical complications in giving birth, but c-sections can be and are sometimes misused and can actually increase problems for the mother.

@Blondesjon: Perhaps we meant the same thing, but I see a slight difference in static vs. stagnant. I don’t expect it to progress to anything, as only the artist herself would know. I merely pointed out that I saw a lack of progress of any kind.

@SeventhSense : Just because it’s art doesn’t mean it’s good art. Obviously there is art that is worth millions, and some that isn’t worth the gum on the bottom of my shoe.

How many people have to agree that it’s art before it “is.” That’s ridiculous. Not all of us went to art school and therefore are not all snobby particular about what we consider art.

For the record, I believe this “art” in question is total crap. I’m just being objective.

@asmonet…Fair enough.

@ubersiren
Maybe I’m just splitting hairs over the terminology. I guess an ad house or graphic arts publisher can say do you have the “art” for that issue or whatever.
I guess I am thinking ART.:)

@SeventhSense : I understand. I respect that certain people obviously have a better eye for different types of art. I, for instance, went to culinary school, and dread going to friends’ houses for dinner to eat their “food.” I am now a massage therapist, and can discriminate greatly on the quality of a massage, or what a lot of people consider a “massage.” I see where you’re coming from.

@ubersiren
of course the best are with your sweetie and those always have a “happy ending”...did i just reveal my inner dog? :)

@ubersiren – Haha! I love that you put “food” in quotation marks! To me, plain bread and cheese can easily serve as food. Anything edible is food. But I suppose to a chef, food is only food when it tastes (and looks?) amazing.

Maybe it’s so funny because food is so integral to survival, to deny that something is not really food is bizarre. I mean, if you were out in the wilderness, wouldn’t you, too, have to survive off of something less than delectable? And wouldn’t you call that food (without quotation marks)?

Back to the topic at hand. Didn’t dadaism break down our society’s assumptions about who can be an artist and what form art can take? Now, I suppose, we are facing more troubles distinguishing graphic design from art. Once, intention (aesthetic or otherwise) was considered integral in the creation of art, and then the dadaists said, “Nope! This pile of shit is art, even though the shitter didn’t even think about art as he shat.” At once, everything and nothing can be art, regardless of the artist’s intention. And now, in a society bombarded with media and entertainment, any graphic art with obvious intention (especially if it’s commercial) is given a lower status than other forms of art. Isn’t that bizarre? We’ve taken a 180 degree turn from the assumptions of the past.

I suppose this all has something to do with the difference between “craft” and “art”. I need to look into this more.

I’ve moved horribly off-topic and into territory only vaguely familiar to me. So, apologies. But I still argue that this artist’s work is art and that she can feel however she wants to feel about her experiences (which we don’t really know the details of). Personally, I like her work. I wouldn’t hang it in the new baby room… but yeah, most of them are interesting.

@shadling21 – One of the reasons I suspect that our vision of what is art has changed is that we now have photography to allow anyone to record an image, as well as things like Hobby Lobby to allow anyone to apply color to a surface in a pleasing fashion.

It seems to me that art used to have several specific functions: to record an image for others to see (of a person or a place), or to express an idea (such as all that religious art), or to be decorative, or a combination of these functions. Only those specifically trained to make art did so because everyone else was busy surviving with some other skill.

Once photography took over the role of recorder, artists were free to use their art to express ideas without being tied to the necessity of having it record the real world. Hence Dadaists could insist that a urinal can be art, Picasso could deconstruct the female figure, and Jackson Pollock could sell canvas covered in drips of paint.

With the rise of the middle class and leisure time, gradually, the decorative role of art has become largely associated with crafts, while the expressive role has been given to “Art.” For those who feel that they practice “Art” the decorative role is no longer required at all. In other words, the message has overtaken the medium and then some.

Many people still create nice-looking art that is accessible for those who have no formal training in “Art.” The “Artists” often look down on these people, considering them to be merely craftsmen, yet the majority of people prefer this work. It is pleasing and matches the sofa and doesn’t force anyone to consider uncomfortable ideas.

From a graphic stand point I admire this woman’s use of line, color and image. I think she does a marvelous job of expressing her turmoil as well, to such an extent that I can feel it, too, even though I have never had a c-section. Like you, I like her work, and also like you, I wouldn’t hang it in the new baby’s room or maybe even the breakfast nook.

But I was thrown out of Senior Seminar for asking if we could learn about copyright law as the music students did, since we hoped to go on to earn our living with our images. I was told that perhaps I should consider changing my major from Painting (aka “Art”) to Graphic Design (aka art) because my attitude was too commercial.

Of course, only one of the faculty earned a living with his art. All the others depending on their university pay checks.

@Darwin
Thank you for clarifying that. I find that it’s tough to be an artistic snob but we all have our crosses to bear. :)

@ubersiren
Yes but when intention is passe it kind of loses its impact. Do a urinal today and ahhhh…a Jackson Pollock style drip painting ahhhh..and now a Csection violation….ahhhh.. I was constipated and I made a series of lithographs. Does anybody care?

@SeventhSense – I consider that a large part of my “Art” training was in learning to bullshit well. Consider this scenario: two female art students each paint a similar picture of young man sleeping. The professor asks “Why this subject?”

Art Student A says: “He’s my boyfriend and I love how he looks when he sleeps.”

Art Student B says: “The sharp-edged shadows represent the fine line between life and death. Is this a portrait of a sleeper or a corpse, a dreamer or an inanimate lump of flesh that once was a mind, a soul, a living being? This is the contradiction we all must face every day. What are we really seeing when we look? How can we know what our eyes record?”

Art Student B got an A and a place in the student show. Art Student A switched to Graphic Design.

BTW, I was Art Student B at least until I opened my mouth in Senior Seminar. :-)

How about C- “Dead Boyfriend”.

@SeventhSense – Art Student C – 30 to life in Raiford.

@Darwin
But you see the difference. That one grabbed you and made you think, question and feel. Even if it was frightened.

There is some excellent “bullshit” out there. Like this work by photographer Cindy Sherman from 1979, who is always her own subject

@Darwin – Thank you for that insight. Did you really get tossed out because you were concerned about copyright law? That’s ridiculous!

I hate to add to my snob status but to really understand art one needs to go to New York. I’m not saying there is not excellent art in other cities but it is the undisputed art capital of the world. There are countless galleries and museums and an unbelievable variety. One hundred years ago or so, one would have gone to Paris.
As he peers down his spectacles at the uncouth mob.. Oh I’m just digging in aren’t I?

To say that one needs to visit a place to “really understand art” is, yes, very snobby.

@shadling21 – Yes, I did. However, the one professor that really made a living from his art made them reinstate me. He said that it shouldn’t be necessary to starve or drive a taxi in order to be an artist and that I was quite right.

However, he didn’t quite have enough clout to get a class in copyright law going in the art department.

@shadling21
Only if you’re serious about it.

@SeventhSense why would you need to go to New York or Paris to really understand art? Art occurs everywhere in the world. Great art and the eyes to appreciate it has been created without the ability to go to such places. Plus it tends to focus on European and American artists – I’m not saying there aren’t other nationalities included but it leans predominately this way.

You said:
Plus it tends to focus on European and American artists – I’m not saying there aren’t other nationalities included but it leans predominately this way.
That is patently false

I think some people like to argue just for the sake of argument.
If I have some produce say and I want to showcase it I will join with many others in a Farmers Market where there are many others selling produce.
Likewise art like any other product is represented in NYC like no other place on earth. There is no comparison. This is not my opinion but it is fact. There is more International Art and Domestic Art spanning more art movements than any other city on earth.
Can you make art elsewhere of course. Can you appreciate art and teach art of course. Where do you go when you want to showcase it? New York City. If you want to make films you go to L.A. or N.Y. Andy Warhol came from Pennsylvania- where did he go? Jackson Pollack came from Wyoming and where did he go?
As for cultural diversity, Queens County in NY is the most culturally diverse county in the country.
“According to a 2001 Claritas study, Queens is the most diverse county in the United States among counties of 100,000+ population. There are 138 languages spoken in the borough.”
Wikipedia

Please share with me a more extensive array of galleries and museums in any one city in the world.
List of Galleries and museums in NYC

Chelsea Art Galleries

Lower East Side Galleries
Canada
DCKT Contemporary
Eleven Rivington
Envoy
Feature, Inc.
James Fuentes LLC
Jen Bekman
LMAKprojects
Lehmann Maupin
Lisa Cooley
Museum 52 *
Number 35
Participant Inc.
Salon 94
Smith Stewart
Sunday L.E.S.
Thierry Goldberg Projects
Woodward Gallery

————————————————————————————————————————

Downtown Art Galleries
American Painting
Arcadia Fine Arts, Inc.
Brooke Alexander Editions
Calvin Morris Gallery
Carolina Nitsch Contemporary Art
Coda Gallery
Deitch Projects
Diane Villani Editions
Eleanor Ettinger Gallery

Elisa Tucci Contemporary Art

Ethan Cohen Fine Arts
Franklin 54 Contemporary Fine Art Gallery
Harris Lieberman
Heller Gallery
Heskin Contemporary
Janet Borden Inc.
June Kelly Gallery
Kerrigan Campbell
Kerry Schuss / KS Art
Louis K. Meisel Gallery
Maccarone
Margarete Roeder Gallery
Martin Lawrence Galleries
Morrison Hotel Gallery
David Nolan Gallery
Nyehaus
Leo Koenig, Inc.
OK Harris
The Old Print Shop
Peter Blum Gallery
Renwick Gallery
Robin Rice Gallery
Ronald Feldman Fine Arts
Sasha Wolf Gallery
Senior & Shopmaker Gallery
Sloan Fine Art
Soho Photo
Spencer Brownstone Gallery
Sperone Westwater
Staley-Wise Gallery
Talwar Gallery
Tracy Williams, Ltd.
Walter Wickiser Gallery
Westwood Gallery
Ward-Nasse Gallery
White Columns

————————————————————————————————————————

Midtown Art Galleries
Aicon Gallery
A La Vielle Russie
Alexandre Gallery
Ameringer & Yohe Fine Art
Babcoock Galleries
Bernarducci Meisel Gallery
Berwald Oriental Art
Bonni Benrubi Gallery
Cohen Amador Gallery
David Findlay Jr. Inc.
Davidson Contemporary
DC Moore Gallery
Earl McGrath Gallery
Edwynn Houk Gallery
Forum Gallery
Fountain Gallery
Franklin Parrasch Gallery
Galeria Ramis Barquet
Galerie St. Etiennel
Gering & López Gallery
Greenberg Van Doren Gallery
Howard Greenberg Gallery
Higher Pictures
Jadite Galleries
James Goodman Gallery
Jan Krugier Gallery
Jason McCoy, Inc.
J.N. Bartfield Galleries
Kennedy Galleries
Laurence Miller Gallery
Leonard Hutton Galleries
Manhattan Art & Antiques Center
Marian Goodman Gallery
Marlborough Gallery
Mary Boone Gallery
Mary Ryan Gallery
Maxwell Davidson Gallery
Michael Rosenfeld Gallery
Neuhoff Gallery
Nohra Haime Gallery
Pace / MacGill Gallery
Pace Prints
Pace Wildenstein
Peter Findlay Gallery
The Project
Rehs Galleries, Inc.

Spanierman Gallery
Spanierman Modern
Throckmorton Fine Art
Wally Findlay Galleries
Washburn Gallery
Zabriskie Gallery

————————————————————————————————————————

Uptown Art Galleries
Adam Baumgold Gallery
Acquavella Galleries, Inc.
Adelson Galleries
Allan Stone Gallery
American Illustrators Gallery
Anita Shapolsky Gallery
Barbara Mathes Gallery
Berry-Hill Galleries
C.G. Boerner
Daphne Alazraki
David Findlay Galleries
David Tunick, Inc.
Didier Aaron, Inc.
Flowers Contemporary Art
Francis M. Naumann Fine Art
Gagosian Gallery
Gerald Peters Gallery
Gitterman Gallery
Godel & Co.
Goedhuis Contemporary
Helly Nahmad Gallery
Higher Pictures
Hirschl & Adler Galleries
Hollis Taggart Galleries
Island Weiss Gallery
Isselbacher Gallery
Jacobson Howard Gallery
Jane Kahan Gallery
Jo-An Fine Art Gallery
Keith De Lellis Gallery
Knoedler & Company
Kouros Gallery
L&M Arts
Lawrence Steigrad Fine Arts
Leo Castelli Gallery
Lillian Heidenberg Fine Art
Littlejohn Contemporary
Marc Jancou Fine Art Gallery
Marc Rosen Fine Art, Ltd.
Mary-Anne Martin Fine Art
McKee Gallery
Michael Werner Gallery
Mireille Mosler Ltd.
Mitchell-Innes & Nash Gallery
Moeller Galllery
Newhouse Galleries
Owen Gallery
Phoenix Ancient Art S.A.
Rachel Adler Fine Art
Richard L. Feigen & Co.
Roth
Tibor De Nagy Gallery
Tilton Gallery
Wildenstein & Company
Zwirner & Wirth

————————————————————————————————————————

Brooklyn Art Galleries
A.M. Richard Fine Art

Art101
Art 101 presents artists of all ages, at all stages of their careers, with an emphasis on the beleaguered denizens of Williamsburg. In addition, the gallery provides a welcoming venue for meetings, talks, and readings. Please visit the gallery website for dates & times.
101 Grand Street, Brooklyn, NY 11237, Telephone (718) 302–2242

Ch’i Contemporary Fine Art
Farmani Gallery East Coast
Klaus Von Nichtssagend Gallery
Klompching Gallery
Like the Spice Gallery
Metaphor Contemporary
Momenta Art
Nelson Hancock Gallery
Parker’s Box
Safe-T-Gallery
Underbridge Pictures
Wessel + O’Connor Fine Art

Queens and Galleries around New York City
Symbol Gallery

MUSEUMS IN NYC

Museums in New York City
Alice Austen House Museum
American Craft Museum
American Folk Art Museum
American Museum of the Moving Image

Americas Society
Artists Space
Asia Society and Museum

Bronx Museum of the Arts
The Brooklyn Botanic Gardens
The Brooklyn Children’s Museum
The Brooklyn Museum of Art

Carnegie Hall/Rose Museum
The Children’s Museum of the Arts
Children’s Museum of Manhattan
The Cloisters
Cooper-Hewitt

Dahesh Museum
Dia Center for the Arts
The Drawing Center

Ellis Island Museum
Empire State Building Lobby Gallery

Museum at FIT
Forbes Magazine Galleries
The Frick Collection

Grey Art Gallery
Goethe House
Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum
Guggenheim Museum SoHo

The Hispanic Society of America
International Center of Photography
Intrepid Sea-Air-Space Museum
Isamu Noguchi Garden Museum
Jewish Museum
LaGuardia and Wagner Archives
Lower East Side Tenement Museum

Madame Tussaud’s New York
Merchant’s House Museum
Metropolitan Museum of Art
The Morgan Library
Mount Vernon Hotel Museum & Garden
Municipal Art Society
El Museo Del Barrio
Museum for African Art
Museum of American Financial History
Museum of Chinese in the Americas
Museum of Jewish Heritage
Museum of Modern Art
Museum of the City of New York
Museum of the Moving Image
Museum of Television and Radio
National Academy Museum
National Design Museum
National Museum of the American Indian
New Jersey Children’s Museum
New Museum of Contemporary Art
New York Botanical Garden
New York Hall of Science
New-York Historical Society
New York Public Library
New York Transit Museum
Nicholas Roerich Museum

PS1 Contemporary Art Center
Pierpont Morgan Library

Queens Historical Society
Queens Museum of Art

Rose Center for Earth and Space

Schomburg Center
Seaman’s Church Institute
Snug Harbor Cultural Center
Sony Wonder Technology Lab
South Street Seaport Museum
Staten Island Institute
Studio Museum in Harlem

Taipei Gallery
Theodore Roosevelt Birthplace

Ukrainian Museum

Wave Hill
Whitney Museum of American Art
Whitney Museum/Philip Morris

Seventh Sense just described why I HATE the institution of art.

@tinyfaery
I can appreciate that.

I really love going to all the galleries and museums in New York. We only have a couple of each where I live and the sheer quantity of art experience available in NYC is marvelous.

That doesn’t mean I don’t go to local ones, or to galleries in other art centers such as Santa Fe, New Mexico, or London, England. It just means I enjoy the availability of art in New York.

Yes it’s amazing in breadth. Overwhelming really and some really nice places are out of the way like the Cloisters on the Hudson

I love the Cloisters!

darwin. thank you for the santa fe reference. i was just about to say that its not about quantity of museums and/or galleries, there are plenty of other places that have an “art mentality” if you will. the big city can sometimes be over-rated.

I’m going for broke
Map of the Country
hahahaha

at least vegas made it on there haha

lol

@SeventhSense – Does this mean New Yorkers can see Russia from their roof gardens?

Well actually you can get like 10 different caviars and countless vodkas in the village so it’s really not necessary but they have those pretty gold onion domes.:)
digging in deeper

I was wondering if Governor Palin would feel at home.

There is no argument that New York is diverse and has many outstanding museums and galleries which would be would be wonderful and insightful for the art lover – that was not my issue. @SeventhSense I was responding to your prior comment ”..... to really understand art one needs to go to New York.” This comment seemed ethnocentric to me. Perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying by this. You may list all of the museums and galleries you like (and I thank you for this as it was quite impressive) but it does not change your comment that “to really understand art one needs to go to New York”. Also, I stick by my comment that it leans towards European and American artists no matter the breakdown of cultural diversity in Queens.The cultural diversity of a place does not mean cultures are equally represented in galleries and museums.

The cultural diversity of a place does not mean cultures are equally represented in galleries and museums
In the case of New York that is not true. One only look at the museums and galleries listed above to realize that many are geared towards many different cultures.
The Metropolitan Museum of Art which has a grand,historical and noriceable presence may have Classical Art as central theme but even that represents multi cultural perspectives. Consider all the galleries and museums before making this satement. If I wanted to learn about space exploration I might go to Houston or Cape Canaveral as well.
But the whole country has much to offer to our creativity.

@SeventhSense – I wasn’t annoyed about cultural representation in New York. I was annoyed with the idea that someone must see a lot of art in order to understand it. What does “understand art” even mean? Appreciate it? Internalize it? Learn its craft? Recognize its merits and faults? Recognize the influences of other artists? Recognize the intention of the artist? Recognize the subconscious intention of the artist? Communicate these observations and interpretations with other art people effectively?

I agree that, academically, it’s beneficial to visit a place that has a large collection of artwork. However, it’s one thing to say that it’s beneficial and another to say that necessary. To say that one’s understanding of art in general rides on a visit to a specific city, regardless of the number of galleries and museums, is ludicrous. This same understanding can be achieved around the world, especially since the Internet has allowed more free communication between cultures, leading to something of a global community.

And do we even want it to be the same kind of understanding? Do we all need to learn about art the same way in order to equally appreciate and study it?

Well said @shadling21

Yes some of it is my personal snobbishness. I also have no comprehension of what passes for food in the rest of my backyard country.
Just kidding :)
Don’t get your panties in a knot.
+5 for you shadling

@SeventhSense: You should really take a look at your posts, we’re actually losing relevance in the art world at the moment, we have for the last century been top dog for the most part but Asia and parts of Europe are gaining ground quickly and doing it well.

@asmonet
I think Asia is definitely coming up strong…