Should any rape victim ever be held in any way responsible for the rape?

Fuck. No.

I think you raise an interesting point. The word “rape” can mean a lot of things, and it encompasses everything from a dude with a gun jumping out of the bushes to a dude having sex that seems consensual with a girl who’s too drunk, immature, etc. to actually give consent. Or, unfortunately, a dude having completely consensual sex with a girl who feels badly about it afterward.

So yeah, I’ll take the unpopular position: women should avoid putting themselves in a position of being alone with a dude while too inebriated to give consent. In that circumstance, yes, the rape victim should hold equal responsibility to the rape perpetrator. If she’s too drunk to be held responsible for her actions, why should he (assuming a similar level of intoxication) still be held responsible for his?

False memory syndrome

Each case on its own merit.

@Mtl_zack: How is that applicable to this question? This question clearly assumes that the rape actually took place.

I was watching cops one time and this guy was on a pay phone trying to call someone and his crazy gf was smackin the crap out of him and so he pushed her off of him. The cops arrested him for domestic violence. Anyways I don’t think there is ever an excuse for hitting someone. Your linke was about domestic violence, which is different about rape. But Rape, no excuses there. Thats never the victims fault.

nope

@nikipedia Rape can take place according to lawyers, judges and prisons, but it might not have actually taken place.

I’ll take “No.” For $400

@Mtl_zack: That’s for the victim to define. The end.

@asmonet If the victim defines anything, then the victim has more power than the judge, jury and the entire court.

And it kinda should be that way.

The act of rape has many, many different variations. I know quite a few women who have been raped. One was raped the way you see on tv, brutally. The other was raped by her boyfriend and did not realize until it was over that she had been raped.

Both are rape. If the victim defines it as unwanted, it is rape.

No. It’s as simple as that.

Yes, we should all be careful and try not to put ourselves in dangerous situations. However, they are not always avoidable or foreseeable. In that case, every rape victim should know they will be supported after. Most are treated horribly at every step of the process—first with the rape then with the reporting process if they even bother.

@Mtl_zack The victim is the one who was violated. They were there, unlike the judge or the jury or the entire court. They SHOULD have more power.

@MacBean The “rapist” was also there, and probably has a totally different take on the entire situation.

Umm.. no. And I thoroughly disagree with @nikipedia. Drunk or not, there are some things a person should never do to another.

Edit: I just read @bea2345‘s answer. Wonderful.

How can the victim be blamed? Rape by definition is not consensual and if one of the parties has not consented, even if s/he has not resisted, it is still rape. If I leave a package on the back seat of my car and it is stolen, the thief will still be prosecuted, and he cannot claim that I left it there for him. Why should rape be any different?

@nikipedia You’ve never been raped, have you?

@asmonet Are you saying that the victim should be able to create stories that didn’t necessarily happen, which can lead to a lot of harm and suffering for the man who goes to jail for 10 years to a lifetime, and even if he can get out of jail, has a reputation as a horrible person, and can’t get a decent job or support himself?

@bea2345 I don’t understand your analogy to a package in your car.

If a women OR man says ‘No!’ then that means NO; not Maybe or Yes regardless.

These arguments mean men cannot be expected to take responsibility for their own actions and are unable to control themselves. I don’t think anybody wants to be raped.

@Mtl_zack I think there are more unknown victims than there are falsely accused perpetrators.

No. Never. Not for a single second. No means no. If a woman says no and man forces himself on her she is being raped. It is not her fault.

Taken in the strict sense of the word… NO… a rape victim should in no way shape or form be held responsible…

IF however a situation were to arise (previously mentioned i believe) in which the complaining party was a willing (read that as consensual) participant and decided to change their mind AFTER the fact… then yes… some responsibility should be shared.

This is a rarity mind you and should not be seen as commonplace.

@asmonet; Mtl_zack is not exactly saying that the victim should not be able to define what is rape; rather, he is saying that in some cases there is no victim. There are obviously some crazy-ass men who are capable of rape; there are, equally obviously, some crazy-ass women who are capable of framing someone out of pure malice or material greed, or who have convinced themselves that they were raped when they were not; perhaps they suffer from some sort of memory problem, or perhaps they felt so guilty of having sex that they were able to delude themselves into thinking they were not responsible for their actions, and were therefore raped. I am not saying this happens frequently, but I have no doubt that it has happened, and that people’s willingness- well intentioned, of course- to always take the victim’s side has caused many men to be wrongly accused when they were no more at fault than the women, if indeed they were at fault at all.

I realize this has diverged somewhat from the question, which assumes that rape has taken place, and therefore rather pre-determines its own answer. But if we are considering the role of a victim in rape, we do have to consider the possibility, however slim, that the victim, whether or not they suffered some psychological harm, was not abused by any other person.

This is specifically about dating violence, but I think it’s relevant, and explains why people victim-blame even though it is NEVER EVER okay to do so.

from Feministe, emphasis mine

The New York Times has a surprisingly thoughtful and complex article on teenage girls’ responses to dating violence — and of course, it’s in the Fashion & Style section. It’s worth a read, though, despite its unfortunate placement. The victim-blaming in high-profile intimate partner violence cases reads to me a lot like self-defensive victim-blaming in sexual assault cases: If you can pin the responsibility for the violence on something the woman did, you can live without the fear that someone might harm you in a similar way. If you convince yourself that women “get raped” because they go somewhere they shouldn’t, or because they dress in a particular way, or because they drink too much, or because they have a bad reputation, then it’s easy enough to convince yourself that if you just act right, you’ll be safe. If you convince yourself that women “get beaten” because they talk back, or because they instigate the violence with phyiscal aggression, or because they otherwise bring violence upon themselves, then it’s easy enough to convince yourself that you won’t ever end up looking like Rihanna.

There’s also the reflexive defense of men:

The girls’ willingness to minimize Mr. Brown’s alleged behavior also reflects a learned social signal, said Professor Morgan, who teaches African-American studies at Harvard. They’ve been taught, she said, “What really matters is that we don’t destroy boys.” Teenage girls think that if they speak out against an abuser, the boy’s future will be shattered, she said. “We have to appreciate that this is not simple for them.”

To clarify, I did NOT mean that if a drunk girl says no, and a guy forces himself on her, that it’s her fault.

What I meant is that the term “rape” still applies if the girl said yes, but was too drunk to be able to actually give consent.

I’m going to say no, with the caveat that what Dr. C described (someone deciding after the fact that they did not want to have sex with their partner) is not in fact rape.

If rape actually occurs then it’s entirely the rapist’s responsibility.

There are women who cry rape after they got caught cheating, or got a little tipsy and don’t want to admit they had meaningless sex with a stranger. There are women who lie to cover their own asses. They give a bad name to women who actually have been raped. There are different levels of rape, all wrong but some worse than others. I definately think a woman has to take steps to insure her own safety. It’s very childish to expect that the world will protect you. There are bad men out there who will take advantage of a woman who goes out drinking, gets shit faced, leads a guy on all night and goes back to his house. Does she deserved to get raped? Of course not. But she made stupid decisions and didn’t care enough for her own safety.

No. A rape victim should never, ever ever be held responsible.

I don’t care if she’s a prostitute and just sucked the guys dick, if he forced himself on her, and she said “no” then it is rape. End of story. A drunk girl walking home, from a bar, has a random guy take her home..she did NOT ask to be raped. She is not at fault.

I was raped at 14. I hung out with my boyfriend’s friends, I went to their house, I went into their bedroom. Willingly. Did I ask to be raped? Should I be blamed because I walked willingly there? No. And anyone that tries to ever tell me it was my fault, for being held down and to lose my virginity not by choice…then they can go to fucking hell.

@jonsblond Just because there’s more of group A than group B, it doesn’t mean that group A is right. In the medieval times, the majority of the world said the world is flat, well they were wring, and one person said the world is round and he turned out to be right.

Let’s just make this clear, not every rape has occurred where alcohol was involved.

Mtl_zack, what I meant was, in the ordinary way, an offender cannot offer as a defence that the bag/wallet/money/TV was there, for anybody to take. (That is called larceny by finding.) But for some reason, it is different for rape victims, especially women. Too often the accused can claim that she consented and the court believes him.

@Mtl_zack…You are a well to do, privileged, teenager. Do you even have any context, besides what you can Google, to draw from in answering this question. Could you personally look a woman, who has been raped, in the eye and maintain the same argument.

now look at what you made me do…it’s your fault…the way you were talking and leading me on…the way your avatar was dressed…you wanted it

@bea2345 What if i have a job that requires me to travel, and leave my car parked outside my house. I left my important files in the car that, without them, could ruin business with my client. My secretary realizes this and breaks into my car to retrieve the files and fax them to me. She broke into my car, she stole my papers, but she claims that she was not stealing them, because she was doing it for a greater cause.
This is really off topic, and I’m not sure what the point is, sorry

@jonsblond: No, but dude, did you actually read my post? I’m referring to an extremely specific situation. Everyone keeps focusing on “if she said no!” I’m talking about a situation in which she never said no that is still categorized as rape. Sheesh.

@Blondesjon The thing is with science and fact is that it doesn’t matter what my opinion is, the truth is the truth.

@Mtl_zack…That doesn’t even make any sense.

@Mtl_zack I never said the words “No” what do you think about me saying I was raped?

I was about to jump in and defend @Mtl_zack as far as being a privilieged teen… rape happens in all levels of society… the context is where you find it.

Having said that you went COMPLETELY off topic with the secretary breaking into your car example… not only is it not the same as a thief breaking intoo your car… it’s also no comparison having a person of confidence doing you a favor as opposed to SOME RANDOM PERSON HAVING HIS/HER WAY WITH YOU wether you be drunk or not. Having someone break into your car in a prking lot and stealing your stuff… also nothing like having your “secreatry” retrieve your documents from your car…. bad comparison bud.

And @Blondesjon is right… “science transcending personal opinion” is baseless and a weak way to try to back up your answer with terminology unrelated to the topic at hand.

Mtl_zack, now you are far off the point. My analogy was intended to contrast the different ways victims are treated. Let me give you an example: some years ago, I was accosted by a man in the street. He propositioned me, and I said, “I am a married woman,” to which he replied, “That’s all right. Leh we [let us] horn the man.” I laughed at him and went on walking. When I repeated this conversation to my mother, she said I must have done something to encourage him. If he had grabbed my handbag in a robbery attempt, she would not have said that. When it comes to sexual matters, the woman, in our society, is often at a disadvantage.

@Mtl_zack: Wtf. Hell no, I never said anything of the sort.

@nikipedia I did read your post, and I’m not a dude. I’m blondesjon’s wife. We all have our reasons for answering this question. For me specifically, I’ve been raped twice. Alcohol was not involved. I take it personally.

Hey, that nun was asking for it!

It’s not just rape, it happens with every type of crime. “It was just lying there behind a locked fence, they should have had better security.” “Dog fighting is a part of the black culture.” “She shouldn’t have been jogging so early.” Criminals will have excuses and too many people buy into them. People have a right to walk the streets in safety. Crime exists because we tolerate it.

@Jayne: I am assuming from the question that this is in fact a rape that occurred, as it does not say ‘alleged’.

I do understand that there are very rare (in comparison) instances of women stretching the truth, however, I think Mtl_Zack is being too broad with his language for me to accept his view as it’s been presented.

@Blondesjon I admit, it would be very uncomfortable, and I would get bitchslapped and there would be slander and filth about me in all the papers and news shows, but I would not change my opinion that the woman is responsible to some degree for her rape if it was backed by enough facts and scientific proof. Sure, I’ll lose my funding, and I’ll be kicked out of the community that sides with the “victim” 100%, but I know, and the rest of the knowledgeable, scientific based, population who believe what is proved using evidence, would KNOW that I was right.

@Dr_C Not all rapes are with complete strangers in an alleyway. Some rapes are by someone’s father, boyfriend, best friend, etc…

@asmonet “And it kinda should be that way.”

@bea2345 I still don’t understand your analogy

@Ender: While it happens with many crimes, it happens much more commonly and widely with sexual assault.

I would rather have someone falsely accused once than have ten women turned away because of changing attitudes on responsibility.

this thread is super upsetting.
the first thread to ever make me cry :(

@asmonet Where did this 1 to 10 ratio come from?

@asmonet; that’s perfectly reasonable. However, I was arguing on the terms that Mtl_zack set, that rape has been alleged, because I find them more reasonable than those in the question; in rape, where the deed, sex, is a normal one and it is the emotions of the people involved that determines its criminality, it seems pointless to set the conditions that the veracity of the allegation has been established. That veracity is often under some doubt, however slight, and it is in that slight doubt that this question is the most pressing. If we can say with perfect certainty that rape was committed, then the blame rests almost by definition on the rapist, and the question is worthless.

@Mtl_zack…You do understand that you are saying, by proxy, with your argument that:

Any child who is a victim of rape is also “responsible to a degree.”

Any victim of a hate crime is “reasponsible to a degree.”

Any murder victim was “responsible to a certain degree” for their own death.

This is a conclusion I drew using logic, a basic building block of science.

@asmonet

Rape obviously is a horrible thing, but honestly, I don’t think you should be so blithe about false accusations. That’s the sort of thing that ends your chance at a normal life.

@Lefty_the_space_monkey…Since we are all working in broad generalizations here, doesn’t the person who gets falsely accused bear some of the responsibility since they were in a place that was conducive to their being accused falsely?

Wow. When it comes to the girl saying it was raped, the day after having sex with a guy – I can see where she should accept some responsibility; however, there should be questions raised. I would wonder if the woman previously had told this person no, and he just took advantage of the situation – knowing she is too drunk to make an informed decision. I would think that could be something that would need to be considered. I’m just not sure in that scenario, what should happen. It would be a very uphill battle, at best.

I was beaten and raped during my first semester of college. It was horrible, brutal and left me shattered, for a very long time. What I discovered, when reporting the crime, was that a rape victim is looked at, with a certain level of suspicion. How were you dressed, how were you acting? Then I find out how hard it can be to convict someone on a rape charge. Oh, and mine was a date rape. It was committed by a guy from a very wealthy family. I wasn’t his only victim. I wasn’t drunk. I was very sober. He was so nice and then, it was like he was a different person.

Barring that situation (drunk girl), it is an absolute no, the victim should not be held responsible, at all. In the drunk girl situation, I think they would need to really look into the situation.

False statements continue to cast a shadow on a rape victim. It makes it very hard on the police, and the person who has been accused.

@Blondesjon

That would be a good argument if I were one of the people here suggesting that rape victims are in any way responsible for the act of violence that they experienced.

There are far more real rape accusations than false ones, that’s where.
I find the majority of this thread absolutely disgusting.
I’ve had too many friends be raped to tolerate this hypothetical shit any longer. Peace out.

@Lefty_the_space_monkey…what are you talking about? it’s still a great argument.

@Blondesjon

I disagree. Any time you have sex with someone they could falsely accuse you of rape. That doesn’t mean that you are in the wrong for having sex and then being slandered any more than the fact that you could be raped at any time you are around other people means you’re in the wrong for being around other people.

It’s not a good argument.

@EmpressPixie

Right. I’m not denying it’s a common occurrence, especially in Muslim countries.

It is really depressing to hear that this has happened to so many of you (us, really), and I think you are all very brave for talking about it. I just hope none of you take my hypothetical personally; I was referring exclusively to that situation. I’m so sorry.

@Lefty_the_space_monkey…If you are in such constant fear of being falsely accused of rape than perhaps you should wait until they say yes.

@nikipedia It’s all good my friend. :)

@Blondesjon

I’m not. It’s unlikely to happen.

What’s more (I’m not very good with people so it doesn’t come up in sexual situations often) I was once told that it was irritating how often I tend to ask if my actions are acceptable to others.

I’m not scared of this happening to me, I’m just saying that it’s a horrible thing to have happen, and it does occasionally, and you shouldn’t dismiss its effects on human beings.

@nikipedia you have NOTHING to apologize for. Yes this has happened to many people here (like you said.. us), and yes there has been some heated debate… but you created (unwittingly or no) a forum for all of us to express an opinion about a very difficult topic and allowed a lot of people to get something off their chest… you’ve made it possible for us to see different points of view and learn from them… helping shape our own… if anything we should be thanking you.

As far as those of us (you’re all my family i hope you know) that have gone through this terrible ordeal i am very sorry for what you had to overcome and wish you weren’t put in that situation. You are all very brave and i thank you for sharing and enriching us with your experience.

@Blondesjon & @jonsblond not to go off topic but you two seem like you would be an excedingly engaging couple in person and extremely fun to be around.

@Blondesjon Where does this whole “children are innocent, perfect little creatures with cute pudgy little cheeks” view of North Americans come from? Some parents will defend their children no matter what, never looking at how bad the kid hurt the adult or caused harm. A perfect example of this is the Home Alone movies. Children are still human, they have the same rights as us, and they share the same greedy, self centered attitudes that adults have.

As for hate crimes, my view of cultural sensitivity is “when in Rome, do as the Romans do”. If these people set up camp illegally and started imposing their values on the people who were already there, then yes, they should be punished. Therefore, I HAVE trampled on and burned a Nazi flag, which IS a hatecrime, according to them, because they imposed their values of a perfect person on almost all of Europe.

As for murder victims, yes, some people are idiots and get themselves tied up in gangs or organized crime, where they are murdered.
I must really look like this guy right now to the Fluther community

@asmonet Oh really? Care to cite a source?

Now, I’m going to enjoy my last night of spring break and not be bashed and hated by all of you people.

@Lefty_the_space_monkey…The same could be said for rape.

@Mtl_zack…Did you really just try and justify child molestation by saying the kids are bad like Mccaulley Culkin’s character in Home Alone”?

I can understand taking an opposing view to point out to folks that their are two sides to every coin. To take that particular tack on this question is irresponsible and childish.

@Blondesjon

And it should be.

I already pointed out that I’m not a rape apologist.

Which is why I didn’t say that rape victims bear responsibility for the wrongs that have been done to them.

You did claim that people who have been falsely accused of rape bore responsibility for those done to them.

So great, we both agree that we should have empathy for rape victims, cool.

The only place we’re disagreeing is that I believe that people who have their lives destroyed by false rape accusations (which I freely admit are a small group), also deserve empathy.

@nikipedia – No, I didn’t take it personally, at all. No worries, my friend!

@Dr C – thank you.

@Lefty_the_space_monkey…No disagreement there at all. +5

IMHO It does not matter if she says no or not.

If she does not say “yes” in a clean, sober, mature, informed situation, that is a loud and clear no.

@Blondesjon

Alright then. In that case, I’m not sure what we’re arguing about.

@Lefty_the_space_monkey…it’s ok, i have that effect on folks

I was sent a pm regarding this thread and my response summed up my views, I have no interest in this after it is posted.

@Mtl_zack: I don’t think lives should be ruined in the process, I was merely pointing out that the system we have in place is all we have, and rather than cast more undue suspicion on the women – which may turn away more – I’d rather keep it as it is. Where the ratio is skewed, occasionally someone IS wrongly accused, but there are far more real rapes and real unreported rapes. I don’t want any part of a system that would begin to blame the victim for circumstance.

That’s all, I will not be providing source materials as I have no wish to google anything that’s been mentioned here. Do the leg work yourself if you must.

@Blondesjon

Well, I’ll try to make sure I’m not arguing about a failure to communicate in the future.

I don’t like letting people have that effect on me, as I try to be a non-combative person.

First of all, the question specifies “rape victims,” not “women who may or may not be lying about being raped.” So discussion about the legal issues surrounding rape prosecution is sort of another issue, though I agree with all the posters who have pointed out that the system currently humiliates women and discourages them from even reporting the crime.

Secondly, no. Let’s replace “rape” with “brutally assault.” If I get drunk and am brutally assaulted while I am drunk, in what world would I be responsible for that assault?

Yes, being drunk and alone with unfamiliar men is “risky.” So is walking alone in a bad neighborhood at night. In no way does that mean late-night murder victims are responsible for getting themselves murdered.

I’d wager that most of the people polled positive in the OP’s linked article are just misogynists.

I guess it might be a bit late to mention this, but did anyone else think that it was weird that more people thought it was okay to beat someone for dressing revealingly, or flirting than for cheating?

I mean, I’d never hit someone else (except maybe in self-defense, but probably not even then, as I’m kind of feeble and it wouldn’t help all that much) but I think that I’d feel much more negatively about being cheated on, than having a SO flirt with someone.

@Blondesjon I already know your strong opinions on sex abuse regarding children, and I don’t want to get into that.

@asmonet Fair enough. I want to get out of this discussion too, I don’t blame you for retreating.

I’m not sure if this assumption is being made that current rape reporting statistics are accurate, that is most rapes are reported such that there are many false reports. I took a 101 criminology course recently for the credit and was actually shocked to find that rape statistics are completely misleading.

Certain features of society prevent many women from reporting rapes, due to the concern that they won’t be believed precisely because society has somehow promoted the idea that women can be blamed for being a victim of rape. There’s additional issues with the invasiveness of a rape report (the unfortunate necessity of a clinical exam, the emotional stress of a trial, and public knowledge that leads some to shame).

Additionally the still existing economic divide concerns some women about their ability to support themselves or their children if their rape report breaks up their family, marriage, or work relationships as the vast majority of rapes are committed by those closely known to the victim.

I guess this is obvious to many but as a young man, I find it shocking and an odd facet of society that some suffer through but many like me didn’t really consider. Diligent Googling will yield better sources but here’s one to start. So if anything our society should be doing far more to encourage rape reporting as the vast majority of these cases are not reported.

@Mtl_zack—“Children are still human, they have the same rights as us, and they share the same greedy, self centered attitudes that adults have.”

The difference is that children’s minds are not developed enough to extrapolate, predict and understand consequences.

So, what did we decide?
No sex before marriage?

That implies you cannot be raped by your spouse. You can.

Ok, so just no sex then.

@fireside. Heh, I got you the first time.

A more sensible argument is that – at the bare minimum – rapists should be held responsible for not explicitly asking for consent in a noncoercive way (eg. making it clear it’s fine for them to say no, even if they’d be disappointed).

Ideally, consent = enthusiasm… but apparently many are cool with continuing even when they’re partner doesn’t want to (whether it’s a – whatever, would rather not, but am cool doing it anyhow – or a – i really don’t want to, but am too shocked to say anything in protest).

I saw an old SNL clip about the “Love Contract” where both parties had to sign and indicate which sexual acts were acceptable for the evening.

Wish I could find that clip

@fireside Lol. That’s a bit much, but it’s not such a crazy idea. btw, have you found an online clip of that jazz party sketch from years ago that Catherine Zeta-Jones did? it was quite amusing, but have been unable to show my friends

Personally, many find it appealing to explicitly state consent – to whatever… had a friend who went to a college where a student initiative led to a schoolwide policy of requiring such consent, and everyone really liked it, apparently. (Sadly, the school doesn’t exist anymore)

/Mtl_zack/ I beg your pardon. Rape is an act of will. The attacker is not a zombie or a robot. He should not be able to offer as a defence that “she asked for it.” Any more than a thief can claim that the item was there ready to be stolen. BTW, how do I get to have your name at the beginning of my replies?

@bea2345 You use @ then the user name.

Welcome to fluther! :)

@Mtl_zack Thanks! Rape is a subject that most of us think about, especially since it stopped being taboo in the press. Given that women are particularly vulnerable to this kind of assault, it is hard to be blamed for being the victim.

@fireside: I remember that one, I can’t find it either. It was hilarious though. :)

Hell no! Rape implies that it is not consensual, so it is up the transgressor to stop what they are doing, the victim has no control over the actions of the transgressor. There cannot even be 1% blame placed on the victim.