To eat meat or to not eat meat? And if so, how?

Was there a question in that sermon somewhere?

I think if you continue on this line, you’re going to lose a friend. Nobody likes being moralized at, no matter how justified the moralizer thinks he or she is.

Sooo I didn’t read all of that, but I think it’s fine to eat meat. It’s also horrible how some of them are killed.

It was not intended as a sermon and I was afraid that’s how it would come off, just because it is about vegetarianism.
They were pretty in-depth conversations, and I just wanted to see what everyone here had to say (I feel like I have to precursor all my questions with that or I’ll get hounded). Maybe I just can’t express it very well on here.

It’s not demeaning to raise animals for slaughter.
It’s just lazy hunting.

Same reason we figured out tv remotes.

Just shoosh, people can buy what they want. Make a difference in yourself and lead by example. If he eats meat and can’t afford anything but the cheap stuff, I wouldn’t be judging him.

There are animals that eat animals and even humans if they can catch us unawares so I don’t feel badly to raise particular animals for their meat. I prefer they be treated well and not fed chemicals, eventually I will raise my own rabbits and a few chickens for eggs.

I think eating factory-farmed meat and dairy is morally wrong. You are directly contributing to unimaginable suffering just to save a few bucks or indulge your eating whims/habits.

That said, I do occasionally eat factory-farmed meat. I’m trying not to. But in the meantime, I don’t pretend that it’s morally okay when I do. And I don’t get mad when people rightfully judge me for my actions.

@asmonet, I think factory farming clearly is demeaning. We cut off chickens’ beaks because we force to live them in such close-quarters that they would brutally peck each other if we didn’t. The chickens’ feet become ingrown around the wire mesh of their cages. They move so little and are so deformed by breeding that they often cannot even stand up on their own.

We force-feed cows a diet of corn that they have not evolved to digest, so they constantly have stomach ulcers. We force them to stand in their own shit all day. To ward against the bacteria growth that would inevitably happen in such conditions, we soak their food with antibiotics.

If you believe that these animals are capable of suffering—and I don’t see why any rational person would not believe this—then to say this kind of treatment is “demeaning” is an understatement.

When you crave meat, your body needs something from that meat. Probably the iron. Do you take iron supplements?

Not everyone can afford organic food. They still need to eat.

@casheroo yep I do!

& I meant to mention this in my already extremely long…whatever you want to call it…that my friend and I did take note that we are talking about a specific demographic here. And yes, everyone does need to eat, but does it have to be meat, that’s the question I guess. I mean, for example, when you go to a restaurant, any restaurant, the items with meat on them are more expensive then non-meat items.

How is it you have “never been one to judge meat eaters or preach about my eating habits.”? You lay into your friend in the grossest terms about his choice and you write the above screed concerning your personal dietary policy.

In response to those particulars:
The smell of brussel sprouts cooking make me sick, but I would remove myself from the kitchen rather than lecture the cook or diners.
I understand you don’t like the texture and taste of meat and I feel exactly the same way about tofu, that’s why I choose not to put it in my mouth,
Do you buy your food in markets? Is that because you don’t have the balls to personally grow, harvest, transport and process it (you mean you think flour comes that way in nature?)

To answer the unrelated question:

Yes to eating meat. preferably beef, pork, lamb, poultry, fish and prepared in all ways except raw.

@Qingu: I agree with you, which is why I said the act of raising animals for food is not demeaning, I made no mention of the factory farming process.

I’ve also not really been invested in the vegetarian debate. I have a few that are friends but they’re not bothered when our group eats meat as a unit as long as there’s a vegetarian option. I’m also trying to fix my poor diet ways and gain weight and vegetarianism is another unneeded hurdle.

However I’ve recently been more and more picking out vegetarian options because of the enviromental benefits. Apparently the use of resources with beef is a few magnitudes higher than equivalent proteins of beans or other non-meat sources.

That, along with the cost savings has been incentive enough for me to start slowly picking more vegetarian options for my meals. I may never be a complete vegetarian but I’m moving away from the mandatory meat portion I’d have with each meal. So maybe that’s another point you can integrate into your discussions but please do so in the spirit of mutual understanding.

Soooo I regret asking this question.

@aviona: Don’t. We were basically having this discussion a few days ago and it was great.

I think what we didn’t really hit on there is that there are two sides to eating meat. There is the very literal: you are eating meat side and the social-psychological side. The “eating meat” side is where the morality comes into play, I think. It’s when you take a look at it and say, “Okay, yes, these animals are treated really quite horribly and we should move to eating humanely treated meat.”

The other side, the social-psychological side, is multi-faceted. There are the people who have been taught that meat is part of a healthy diet. There are also people for whom being able to purchase meat is a very important part of being financially well off. And I don’t mean, like, living in luxury well off. I mean like, either couldn’t afford any meat or much meat growing up so it has become ingrained as something to prove you’ve made it or something like that. To that group, meat is an important social and psychological marker, however they may not be well enough off to afford well treated meat.

So then the options are to buy it less often, which grates psychologically, or buy cheaper. Often, cheaper wins out.

There is also the very real issue that many people have no idea what goes on in factory farms, have no idea why grass-fed is better for beef, and all they really see is the difference in price at the store.

@aviona: If you’ve learned something, you have nothing to regret.

But it really does sound to me like you’re preaching at and arguing with your friend, and coming here to expect us to support your views. If you continue in this vein, sooner or later he is going to say, “You know what? I’m tired of you pestering me about being a vegetarian. I’m done.” And he will be entirely justified in doing that.

And yeah, you say you don’t judge meat eaters or preach about your eating habits, but then the rest of your question makes it pretty clear that that’s exactly what you’re doing. If you think judging people and preaching at them is bad, then you need to alter your behavior so that you don’t do it; if you think converting non-vegetarians is an important thing to do, then you need to admit that’s what you’re doing, and accept that judging and preaching are part of that. You just can’t claim one and do the other without being hypocritical.

Here’s how I view meat. Meat is what I like to eat, first off, I’ll get that out of the way. I know that the meat I buy in my supermarket is not the best quality meat in terms of lifestyle for the animal, but this does not bother me a great deal, I accept that it is a consequence of our large population.

However, this has shaped my viewpoint a bit as to what I want to do in life. Gordon Ramsay had a similar experience when he viewed the horrid but legal conditions animals live in, and was so shocked he decided to change his meat sources to be free range, good life animals, and he also started raising some of his own for his TV show The F Word.

I want to raise animals on my eventual farm. I will give them a wonderful life, much better than they could have gotten in the wild (having their injuries tended to, having help while birthing, being fed and petted by little kids, having their wool shaven off, running around in the sun and being safe and cozy in the rain, etc). And then when it’s their time to help me have a wonderful life by being my food, I will be the one to slaughter them and prepare them. I feel it’s a sign of respect to use the animal as much as you can, so I would do just that.

This, to me, is the ideal combination of man and animal, man helping animal and animal helping man. It’s much better than the legal forced farming, hormone injecting, all sorts of shenanigans they have going on with animals nowadays. Would it be better if I didn’t eat these animals? Who knows. One thing’s for sure, I wouldn’t be raising them, which means they could have been raised by Monsanto farms and thus be treated badly. Or left to live and fend in the wild, and not have an injury tended to, or have one’s group viciously attacked by a savage predator. I am someone who will eat meat regardless, so it might as well be given the best possible life.

Giving up meat is a hugely complex paradigm shift to those who haven’t begun to question where there food comes from and the significance and impact our food choices have on our bodies, on other humans, and on the animals. I spent most of my late 20s on a soapbox. In retrospect, I was mostly justifying my own reasons out loud, and alienating my friends.

As suggested, leading by example is the best way to change the world. Look for windows of opportunity when your friends ask questions about what your doing, and rather than argue with them, give them information that they can use to make their own decisions.

@aviona If you had asked a question about vegetarianism like Vegans/vegetarians what are some of the reasons behind your dietary choices? and in the description put your reasons, you might have gotten a different response. I, for one, would have skipped the question. By inviting in omnivores and then attacking them, well you just made yourself into fresh meat.

I have eaten meat since childhood but in the past year or so I have started to dislike a lot of it. I can’t stand white meat and lamb starts to make me feel sick after a few mouthfuls. The only meat I don’t mind is beef and fish. At the moment I am still eating meat occassionally and when I do I am very picky about where the meat I consume comes from. I could happily not eat meat both for moral reasons and simply because I don’t enjoy it that much but at the moment I live with my dad and if he cooks beef I will eat it. However, I am moving into my own place in May and so obviously I will be buying and cooking for myself. I can’t imagine there will be much meat in my diet when that time comes!

Eat meat. It’s tasty, it’s an easy, fairly safe source of protein, and your body is made to be omnivorous.
Just be sure that they haven’t cut it with soy. That’s both an affront to carnivory and has been linked to things like cancer and birth defects.