General Question

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

When thinking about gender, do your thoughts move into an empirical, biological direction or a direction having to do with social constructs?

Asked by Simone_De_Beauvoir (39062points) March 22nd, 2009

1. sex and gender are not the same concept
2. men and women aren’t the only genders
3. some people don’t want a gender, how does that make you feel?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

43 Answers

Qingu's avatar

Isn’t gender, by definition, a social construct? (As opposed to sex, which is by definition biological?)

Also, I don’t care what people want to do with their own genders (or lack thereof).

lemsteve's avatar

I think male and female sweetie.

Response moderated
Response moderated
lefteh's avatar

Great question.

I immediately move toward a social construction when considering gender. As you noted, sex is very different, and leads me toward a biological connotation.

I am active in the queer rights movement, and so when I think of gender I think primarily of transgender, intersex, genderfuck, and other groups who embrace genders other than that of their sex.

I can’t wait for the conversation on this one.

jlm11f's avatar

[mod says:] Duplicates removed.

Lefty_the_space_monkey's avatar

Obviously it’s a social construct, but I think I said that I felt that way on wis.dm already…

Anyways, I think that I’d have trouble relating to someone who didn’t identify with either gender (even if they mixed and matched qualities of both) in any interpersonal relationship. Being a social construct doesn’t make it unreal, and it’s an important part of the way I see myself and others.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Qingu
I don’t think it’s as simple as that..if it were, then people wouldn’t be fine with assigning limiting gender norms to men and women simply because of what’s between their legs and because they think they know things about hormones (which it usually turns out they don’t)

ubersiren's avatar

When I meet someone and his or her gender turns out not to be what I concluded at first glance, undoubtedly my brain does a double-take. It’s not out of any personal feelings for or against that individual, or transgendered people, it’s just because it’s not that common. Like seeing someone with a goiter. After that initial clarification, all thoughts are calibrated and everything is normal. I don’t find it strange that people want sex changes or not to be identified one way or another. However, naturally, I think most of us think in terms of male or female and it’s based on appearance.

The only dilemma I have is “Holy crap, what does he or she want to be referred to? Him? Her?” And it’s not out of ignorance, really, it’s just that I really want to cater to that person’s sensitivity. I actually am offended when individuals think people in my position are being rude or whatever. It’s just not that common and we need a second to realign our trains of thought.

FYI: You can hit “Edit this response” to add or edit something. Just keeps the threads neater and more organized.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@lemsteve
hey shell, can you not triple post?

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@lefteh
certainly my exploration into gender politics started in feminism but was strengthened because of my trans and intersex friends once I got to college…being involved in trans and queer activism has further opened up my eyes and led to a personal struggle as well…but it all leads in one direction: thinking that gender is purely a social construct, the categorization necessary for ordering of society but in the end, hurtful

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@ubersiren
as far as i have been taught, it’s not impolite, i think, to ask what the pronoun is that the person uses, they’ll appreciate the thought

Dansedescygnes's avatar

I think of the difference between sex and gender because I am aware of the difference and “accept” it.

kenmc's avatar

hehe. Here we go!

All of the advanced knowledge I have on gender constructs I’ve learned from you, Simone… I can’t really say much else.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Dansedescygnes
why is ‘accept’ in quotes?

ubersiren's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir : That’s a good point, and I would certainly ask the person- I just mean initially when I’m still in my slightly shocked state that’s what my brain is trying to figure out. It’s not that I’m being rude intentionally, I’m just computing, and I wish that was better understood.

Dansedescygnes's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

Because I would go to the extreme that I don’t think it should even be an issue of accepting because I know there are people out there who do not accept it at all and in their eyes there is man, woman, and nothing else.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@lemsteve
yes, it’s you
get over the identity crisis
you’re also using spirit’s avatar

Dansedescygnes's avatar

Wait…Shell is lemsteve?

My brain hurts…

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Dansedescygnes
shell is lemsteve on fluther, lol
it’s true

adreamofautumn's avatar

I immediately move in the direction of Social Constructs, never biology. shrugs. i’m a Women and Gender Studies student though, it only makes sense.

lemsteve's avatar

@Dansedescygnes

Oh the things that you learn on the net.
It was an experiment in social engineering.
thanks tremendously for your input and heartfelt
emotional responses leading up to nasty insults
and blocking. Quite educational, really.

lemsteve's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

Shell was lemsteve on wis.dm, too

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@lemsteve
really?
that would surprise me
how can you prove it?

Dansedescygnes's avatar

@lemsteve

Oh and I thank you for the same thing. I stand by everything I said.

MacBean's avatar

Gender is definitely a social construct, ingrained in us so deeply from the moment we’re born that even the generally open-minded are often uncomfortable with people who identify as neither gender, or as both.

@ubersiren—Most of the time, genderqueer people will give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you your adjustment period without taking offense. It takes most of us years to accept ourselves; we can hardly expect other people to understand and adjust at the drop of a hat. Just remember that transfolk should be addressed according to their target gender, and if that isn’t apparent or if there isn’t a target gender, simply ask which pronoun set you ought to use. Unless the person is a complete asshole, in which case you don’t want to associate with them no matter what gender they were/are/will be, they’ll have no problem with answering and will be thankful that you took the time to find out their preference instead of just assuming.

(I think most of the regular old Flutherers have picked up on it by now, but for the n00bs from wis.dm: Hi. I’m MacBean. Female-bodied, gender-neutral, but more comfortable with male pronouns. [waves])

lemsteve's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
By din of your surprise.

lemsteve's avatar

@Dansedescygnes

Yes. It is always a pleasure to watch people melt down to ranting loonies when they can no longer take the pressure. Hahaha…you broke down hard and often.

MadParty's avatar

well one can always change their gender as it is a personality/socialtrait overall, the vox populi however sees gender as a very balck and white/penis and vagina thing, personally i being privy to the transgendered, gay, bisexual etc culture would say that gender is individualistic as my own personality and that can change, i choose to have a male gender and not a females gender because of my own feelings and emotions, but behind closed doors with people i love and trust i feel that gender is quite irrelevant.

aprilsimnel's avatar

Social construct. From what I understand, biologically there’s more than 2 sexes, so gender’s the thing that people use to not have to think about categorizing every single person individually. In many non-Western-based societies, there’s more than 2 recognized genders as well, so there’s that.

daloonagain's avatar

I am assuming that by “social construct” we mean how we think about gender, or how we assign gender?

As a social scientist who is very interested in how things are categorized, I know there is a hierarchy of categorization schemes. The most basic is either/or (binary) systems. As people get more sophisticated, they can develop more categories for whatever it is they are categorizing.

For example, you might start with the concept of friend or enemy. Then, as you grow more sophisticated, you might say friend, companion, acquaintance, colleague, persona non grata, enemy. I’m sure there could be several other categories thrown in there, as well.

There is a natural scientific process to the creation of more and more sophisticated categorization schemes. Typically, you do start binary. However, there is one other essential component to categorization efforts. You have to decide what attribute of the thing you want to categorize you will look at. Take a set of pebbles for example. They have different sizes, different colors, different textures, and on and on. If I told you to categorize a pile of pebbles; which attribute of pebbles would you use to divide them into categories. If you used color, where would you draw the line between categories?

Humans try to use categorization systems to predict the behavior of the things they are studying. We first develop a system, but then, in using it, we find anomalies, and we study them, and realize that our initial model could be improved if we add more categories or categorize the objects based on a different attribute.

As a general rule, we usually categorize things into between 2 and 8 categories. There is a biological reason for this having to do with how many different names we can hold in our heads at the same time. The less educated or sophisticated or intelligent you are, the fewer categories you will see.

Simple categorization happens with gender. We start with male and female, usually based on a combination of three attributes humans have: genes, physical form, or who they prefer to love. Then we discover there are people with both genes and both body parts, so what do we do with them? Maybe we create a new name for them. Then we discover there are people who prefer to have love relationships with members of their own sex. What do we do with them? Let’s make up some new names. Then there are people who change sexes; what do we call them? And on and on. I’m sure there are more categories that I haven’t even thought about.

Categorization is always a “social” construct. Look at flora and fauna, a binary category. We accept it as natural that there should be two categories, but someone had to come up with that scheme in the first place. Now we don’t even think about it. Within flora, we have trees, grasses, bushes, etc, etc, We define these categories, and then we find things that don’t fit in any category, what do we do?

The process of defining categories is a social construction effort. What if two people (perhaps scientists) come along and develop two slightly different categorization schemes? Whose will be adopted by the general public? Well, that depends on who publishes where, and who has what kind of reputation, and who gets their system into the public eye first.

All of these schemes have two components. First, there is the underlying physical or behavioral facts. Second, there is what humans name the categories they choose to divide these physical facts into. The latter is social construct. The former, an attempt at unbiased description of evidence (which is hard to do, since we all bring preconceptions to the process. It is hard to see things with a baby’s eye).

My point is that all categorization schemes are social constructs. Nature doesn’t give a shit what we call things. It goes blithely on being itself. We, in our attempts to model natural processes, make categories and name them. Sometimes our naming schemes become unquestioned social norms. As such, they are difficult to change, because they are so universally accepted.

The struggle to have more genders become generally accepted is not a struggle about the underlying biology. Biology stays the same no matter what humans choose to call it. The struggle is about how many categories it makes sense to divide gender into, and what we should name those categories. Of course that is a human process. Therefore, of necessity, it is a social construct.

daloonagain's avatar

Oops. I forgot to say how I feel about it.

Since I take a scientific approach to this process, I think it only makes sense to develop new categories when we discover new attributes that are important. So I feel neutral about the process.

What bothers me is when people deliberate ignore clearly observable evidence or deny that it exists. These people seem to want the world to be as they want it to be, not as it is. I feel sorry for them, and don’t particularly like talking to them. I feel sorry for the rest of us, when people who place ideology over science in terms of making policy get into positions of power. As is obvious now, we are paying for that choice—in spades.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@MacBean
hi, macbean, femalebodied, gender non conformist here (waves back)

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@lemsteve
what does ‘by din of your surprise’ even mean, dear?

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@daloonagain
completely agree
thank you for that response

Dansedescygnes's avatar

@lemsteve

So did you, you freak. Assuming you were Shell/JakeBrake. Because he definitely did. And he was a freak.

Not sure if you’re telling the truth or not.

Response moderated
lemsteve's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

I used the dylan av because he stole mine on minekey and ran rampant over the site posting insulting language against my ariavistas ID.

Dansedescygnes's avatar

@lemsteve

When have I ever professed to not know my own gender? I’m male; I’m a man/boy. Nothing else.

augustlan's avatar

[Mod says] Personal attacks are not permitted on Fluther. All such posts will be removed in the future.

jlm11f's avatar

[mod says:] In addition to what @augustlan said, please keep your answers on topic. The discussion about what person is what username is better suited for PMs and chat room. Thanks.

jo_with_no_space's avatar

I’m all about the social constructs. Gender may be manifested and understood according to different quidelines in diferent countries, and there is no “one” culturally unified understanding of gender, in my opinion.

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