Meta Question

Michale's avatar

About the Fluther community - Will I find the militant atheist faction here who believes all religious people are either idiots, insane or both?

Asked by Michale (184points) March 23rd, 2009

In many of the online forums I have participated in I’ve seen such an overt hatred for religion and Christians in particular, that it seemed to be futile to even consider speaking to these people with their preconceived notions that will obviously never change. I love debate and will debate my faith all day as long as it is respectful.

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

86 Answers

essieness's avatar

Well, it depends on how you interpret the responses, I think. Generally, the jellies are good about stating their beliefs in a non condescending way, or at least with some tact. Of course, that’s generally. You just have to skip the assholes and not let them get to you.

I also have to add that there’s really nothing wrong with them not wanting to change. You don’t want to change, do you? We just have to agree to disagree sometimes.

dynamicduo's avatar

You will if you come into the situation with your fists swinging prejudicially, as you seem to be doing by asking your question in the very heavily weighted manner you’ve chosen to use.

I am an atheist. I have no qualms with you as a Christian. What I do have qualms with is if you or any other religious person tries to dictate my life or tell me I am wrong or I will burn in hell, etc. I am always up for an interesting debate, but I never intend to convert anyone, and I expect those who talk to me respect my desire to not want to be converted.

It is only when Religion is used as an oppressive tool that I have an issue with it.

syz's avatar

Quite possibly. I am atheist, but for the most part, like Dynamicduo, my policy is live and let live until someone starts telling me that their’s is the only correct philosophy.

_Liz's avatar

Probably. I just hope they’re not as rude. @dynamicduo what’s the use of debating beliefs? I’m not changing my mind and neither are you

EmpressPixie's avatar

If you’ve found them everywhere else, I’m sure you’ll find them here too.

dynamicduo's avatar

@_Liz What’s the point in debating anything?

breedmitch's avatar

There are some wonderful people of faith here. There are some wonderful people of science here.
I think if you want to fit in, you shouldn’t use this site as a place to witness.

augustlan's avatar

Lots of atheists here, fewer religious fanatics, many agnostics… most of us are somewhere in the middle. Religion is discussed here frequently, as is science. Most of the time, it’s respectful. Hope you find your comfort zone here!

Qingu's avatar

I don’t hate Christians, and I’m not “militant”—I certainly don’t advocate violence.

I do feel very strongly that the Bible consists largely of immoral myths, and that it does not make sense to believe in a religion based on the claims of this book. (I imagine you feel quite strongly that I’m wrong, as well.)

I would love to debate you about religion, and I hope you don’t feel that any criticism of religion equates to being “disrespectful” or “intolerant. I also hope you don’t think my views on religion are “preconceived,” as I came to them after reading the Bible and studying other religions.

daloonagain's avatar

I’m afraid so. Our atheists are very militant, and they take militancy quite seriously. They usually get up at dawn for anti-prayer. They go on to the parade grounds to practice assaults on houses of worship. Later on, it’s IRD (improvised religious destructors) making class. Finally, it’s off to breakfast, and normal daily lives.

Why do you ask?

adreamofautumn's avatar

This crowd has it’s atheists, it’s Christians, it’s agnostics and a whole slew of people in between. I’ve seen conversations get incredibly heated only to see those same people in another thread the next day laughing and joking around. I think there are many differing views, but usually open minds.

Kelly27's avatar

@breedmitch Must faith and science be opposing views? I only ask because you have implied that their are the religious and their are the scientific people and have not mentioned the vast majority in the middle.

syz's avatar

@Kelly27 It certainly seems to work out that way….

Michale's avatar

@dynamicduo I figured this question would flush out those who would be most moved by it in one way or another. I am aware my question was weighted, and it was intended to be so. I wanted to see what sort of responses I would get here. Do not worry, I don’t force my beliefs on anyone. I was just testing the waters.

@daloonagain Great answer! I get up at dawn for prayer, on to the parade grounds where I practice throwing eggs at Richard Dawkins’ house. I have fun with my religion too.

Kelly27's avatar

@syz Would you mind elaborating?

Michale's avatar

@Qingu Thank you for your well thought out response to my intentionally mildly inflammatory question. I wanted to see what sort of response I got here when I broached this subject so I knew what I was in for here. I am also one of the many wis.dm refugees…

dynamicduo's avatar

@Kelly27 – I think that if you asked your question (“Must faith and science…”) on the main Fluther page, it might be more appropriate than derailing the discussion already at hand in this thread. Then you could also get more viewpoints of people not already in this one thread. Just my suggestion.

@Michale, well played then. You seem like a knowledgeable person, I look forward to having discussions with you in the future.

cwilbur's avatar

Yes, there are a number of militant atheists here. There are also a number of theists.

You will learn fairly quickly which ones are worth responding to, and which ones to ignore.

daloonagain's avatar

@Michale: You’ll find that I have a low tolerance for questions that seem deliberately inflammatory, or just plain dumb. I like to make fun of them (the questions, not the askers). There’s actually a kind of formula to what I do. I shall leave it to you to see if you can deduce that formula. Meanwhile, I’m off to have fun somewhere else!

Oh yeah, occasionally, I make a serious answer, but then, that usually turns into a small essay, so I try to avoid it, if I can

MrMeltedCrayon's avatar

@Kelly27: Do they have to be opposing? No. But people often make them that way. Some non-believers are incapable wrapping their head around the idea that someone would believe in a deity figure (admittedly, I toss myself in this category quite a bit), and some hardcore believers are incapable of blending modern scientific concepts with their spirituality. It’s unfortunate, but it’s what happens.

_Liz's avatar

@MrMeltedCrayon what kind of concepts are you talking about?

JamesL's avatar

@dynamicduo and @_Liz

I am open to change, so that is why I debate. It also furthers my understanding of both sides. Yea, I am an atheist but I was born and raised in a religious household… so I openly accept change….One should never be certain.

Ender's avatar

You can find bigotry pretty much all around.

please_not_to_ask2's avatar

I didn’t find this question to be at all inflammatory. Geez.

Darwin's avatar

@Michale – Isn’t that just a waste of eggs? Or are you really just egging him on?

Michale's avatar

@Darwin Well, if I were like certain people who proclaim themselves Christians, I’d take the eggs hitting the house as proof against evolution since the eggs didn’t evolve into something before hitting the house! I have a good sense of humor about these things and am even open to things like Metaversalism http://www.metaversalism.com/

breedmitch's avatar

Oh syz! Nothing makes me grin like the “Creation Museum”.
I’m really going to have to visit it one day. Wanna come with me?
Jesus riding a dinosaur- lol4rl

Darwin's avatar

@Michale – Way to show how little you understand the theory of evolution. You should at least “know your enemy.”

Kelly27's avatar

@syz
Come on, I was looking for actual input, not some links. I will rarely look at a link if you don’t at least explain what they are and why you put them there.

lazydaisy's avatar

Michale, I suppose you will find those people everywhere. I hope you are treated better here than I have seen you be treated in the past over a difference of opinion

Kelly27's avatar

@MrMeltedCrayon
You’re right people often make them that way, but for the majority that isn’t how it is. It is sad really that people can’t or won’t see the gray and see things in a strictly black or white manner.

critter1982's avatar

I think fluther has several people who believe that the Christian belief strictly relies on irrational thought processes. I’ve also found that MANY people here will sensibly and maturely debate their beliefs as well. In general though the moderators do a decent job of wiping away any nonsensical name calling and off topic gibberish. Like everyone else said though, I wouldn’t recommend proselytizing here, you will quickly get hammered for it.

AstroChuck's avatar

First Sgt. AstroChuck reporting in for the Atheist Liberation Army.
Sir.
>>saluting<<

Staalesen's avatar

Militant. No
Atheist. Yes
Think it can be a good subject when done right. yes.

SuperMouse's avatar

Yes, you will find militant atheists, and militant believers here on Fluther. But, weighing in as a spiritual person, I must say that I make no secret of my religious beliefs (I am Baha’i’), I jump into threads about God and religion and divinity, etc, my opinions have always been respected, no one has ever witnessed to me, and as far as I remember no one has threatened me with eternal damnation because I disagree with them.

For some reason there has been a bit of saturation of religious questions in the last month or so and since there has been so much discussion recently, there might not be a huge response to a religious question for a while.

Blondesjon's avatar

I am not a christian. I am a mutt when it comes to what I believe. I used to be ^ @Qingu when it came time to debate religion. I used to rail about those killed in the name of God and how they were shoving their beliefs down my throat and what a bunch of hypocrites they were.

One day, while listening to myself expound on the above in a particularly zealous manner, I realized I was being the hypocrite. Here I am, a very vocal proponent of personal freedoms and free speech, trying to tell someone else to “sit down, shut up, you’re wrong” because they aren’t the same flavor as me. I really was shaken by this revelation. I was, at the core, one of the jerks I was always tearing into.

I decided then and there to, at least where religion is concerned, truly live and let live. Christianity and most other religions have a message of love and tolerance at their core. There is nothing wrong with that.

Your question made me think of this because I have noticed that pro-religion gets a pretty hard knock here on Fluther. I have always had a soft spot for anyone having their voice ridden down by intolerance. Since the only side I can be on is my own I have taken to answering religious threads with song lyrics from west Side Story. (The whole thing is pretty much Sharks vs. Jets, Greasers vs. Socs, blah, blah, blah…)

lemsteve's avatar

Hahaha….what a loaded question. Leading question….Object your honor the Worm….

Jayne's avatar

I have a very strong, one might say religious, faith in my atheism. By definition, that means I believe that theists are wrong. That does not, however, mean that I do not respect them, or that I will be rude to them- if I cannot make a logical argument and have to resort to vitriolic attacks, then I wouldn’t even have a sound foundation on which to base my own faith, let alone present it to others. Frankly, however, I have largely withdrawn from religious debate; it is an amusing intellectual exercise, but I have come to believe that it is both practically and in many cases fundamentally impossible for people to be truly swayed in such a debate. The most that can be hoped is to provide further information to someone who has already begun the process of conversion on a more emotional level. So where my conversation waxes philosophical, I will always be influenced by my atheism, but I am not on a quest to conquer the religious hordes of the internet.

augustlan's avatar

Jayne, I lurves you.

syz's avatar

Me too

ubersiren's avatar

Yes.You’ll find them everywhere you go. Just like you’ll find the crazed Christian/Jehovah’s witness/ Mormon etc brainwashers. Just like you’ll find political extremes. Extremists are everywhere.

delirium's avatar

I’m an atheist, yes. But I usually would rather make a point to educate people about atheists more than atheism.

Am I a militant humanist? Yes, but a pacifistic one.
Am I a militant evolutionist who thinks that everyone who doesn’t ‘believe’ in evolution is brainwashed, doesn’t understand evolution, stupid, or crazy? To a degree. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t lust for intelligent debate about it. It also doesn’t mean that my notion of that isn’t founded in experience. I have found, in general, the people who reject evolution are truly those who don’t actually understand it. Once I sit down and have a rational discussion with them… 99% of the time they go on to accept it and begin to reconcile their faith with it.
Am I understanding of and educated in theology? Yes. More so than most religious people.
Do I think people’s faith is important and necessary to them? Most of the time, Yes.
As I oft say: As long as you keep your doctrine off of my body and out of my government, we’ll get along fine.

AstroChuck's avatar

Three cheers for atheism:
Hip hip Hurray!

delirium's avatar

Bipedal hip hip hurray!

Jayne's avatar

Coxa, acetabulofemoral joint, cheer of joy or victory!

AlfredaPrufrock's avatar

@breedmitch, the Creationism Museum is about an hour from my house. :-) We can go together.

SuperMouse's avatar

I’m not atheist, but I am bipedal! Can I get a cheer? Not a Bronx cheer either people!

@alfredaprufrock, have you been to the museum?

delirium's avatar

@Jayne Hot. Your bunk or mine?

essieness's avatar

Stops following question.

SeventhSense's avatar

As @EmpressPixie said you will find what you seek.
Rephrase the question to engage serious discussion.
I can’t believe the Mods let this question through. It’s obviously inflammatory.
And I believe in a Higher Intelligence.

delirium's avatar

Essie: Its a joke. I do that. Its part of the job description.

Jayne's avatar

If we use mine, Vera might get jealous and want to join in.

delirium's avatar

I can go SO many directions with that one that its almost scary. “Yes please” “As long as no one is loaded” “Use protection” “Oh sure, you can find her trigger”....

Michale's avatar

@Darwin I was being silly there. I know that evolution is a process of millions of years, I was really trying to make a joke. Sorry it went over your head.

delirium's avatar

In darwins defense, it took me two reads to realize you were kidding.

Jiminez's avatar

I think atheists are some of the most open-minded people there are. You just have to be honest about your perceptions and about your thoughts. Many Christians are absolutely dishonest with themselves and others. We just think that’s sad and regretful. In response to militancy, should one be militant acknowledgment of the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun? Why or why not?

djmuzk's avatar

If you don’t believe in something then you will stand for anything.

Jiminez's avatar

@djmuzk Wow, that’s an absolute mischaracterization of atheism. Atheists simply lack a belief in ONE THING. They have belief in many many other things.

Qingu's avatar

@djmuzk, what are your beliefs about slavery? Your Bible says it should be legal. (Lev. 25:45, 1 Timothy 6:1).

Personally, I believe slavery is immoral. Luckily for me, I don’t have to reconcile that belief with an ancient text that clearly condones it. I’m curious to see what you stand for regarding slavery, though.

Darwin's avatar

@Michale – It didn’t go over my head. It just didn’t work.

And you will indeed find the faction you cite if you refer to it as such.

Judi's avatar

@Michale , as another Christian who has no problem stating her views, but also has had no problem with the Atheists on this site I will give you this advice.
1. Don’t try to convert anyone. Even as a Christian that is not your job, that job is the Holy Spirit’s job. If you trust God you won’t try to do his job for him.
2. Don’t bring up your faith unless it is relevant to the question
3. Always be respectful of peoples differing beliefs or dis-beliefs
As a Christian you do Christ much more service by acting Christlike and not spewing judgement than by screaming hell, fire and damnation. Sometimes Atheists here get their defenses up when they first hear “Christian” because they are so used to being abused by the Jerry Fallwell types that they think we are going to be abusive as well. Mutual respect is the way Christ handled people regardless of their “sinfulness,” and he reminded us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If I act like I am any “better” because I am a Christian then I destroy everything I want my life to stand for.
Welcome to Fluther! This is a great place for open minded people who want to learn and share.

critter1982's avatar

Note – Off Topic…..

@Qingu: Even if the bible does condone slavery it does not condone the inhumane, unjust, abusive, overworked, underfed slavery that was typical in America before 1865. The bible states more than once that we should treat others like we want to be treated ourselves (ie. Matthew 7:12, Gal 3:28).

You reference the old testament when you stated that the Bible clearly condones slavery. Frequently slavery in bible times was more of an employee/employer relationship. Being a servant was many time mutually beneficial for both parties. Because the bible says that we are to treat our neighbors as ourselves while also stating that servants are to be obedient to their masters, we cannot infer from the Bible that it condones slavery in the form you represent it to be. We can only conclude that the bible condones mutually beneficial (because love thy neighbor as thyself) relationships where both parties agree to the relationship. This type of relationship could include relationships regarding bankruptcy, prison terms, community service, garnished wages. The new testament condemns any mistreatment of any human being. It instructs us to be kind, loving, and compassionate. The slavery that you speak of is immoral to me and to the Bible, IMHO.

EmpressPixie's avatar

@critter1982: Isn’t that basically just arguing in favor of a gilded cage?

critter1982's avatar

@EP: Well being held in captivity is typically against someones will so i wouldn’t consider that argument as being in favor of a gilded cage.

Qingu's avatar

@critter1982, the Bible also states you can legally beat your slave as much as the Romans beat Jesus before they crucified him (Exodus 21:22).

Also, when you talk about “employer/employee relationships,” I’m assuming you mean that the Hebrews sometimes sold themselves to other Hebrews as slaves (you could legally sell your daughter into slavery, for example). But that’s not the slavery Leviticus 25:45 talks about—the buying of foreign slaves to be your property for life, which your children could inherit.

Deuteronomy 20:10 says that if you conquer a city, all the people in it must serve you at “forced labor” (unless they don’t surrender immediately, in which case you kill all the men and take the women and children as “booty.”)

And while it’s great that you’d personally be nice to your slaves, the Bible is quite clear that slaves with harsh masters should tolerate them. And what would you do if your slaves tried to run away or rebel?

Michale's avatar

You know what’s great?

Unicorns.

In fact, unicorns are freakin’ AWESOME. And you know why? Because once you accept one into your life, they provide you with a lifetime membership into the Beer, Massage, Chocolate and Steak club. Have you not heard about the beer, massage and steak club? Well, let me tell you all about it – it doesn’t matter if you don’t like beer, or steak, or chocolate, or massages – whichever one you like, you get 24 hours a day for the rest of your life. And if you like all four or any combination of them, well… You’re in luck! Because That’s what the rest of your eternity will be – massages (happy ending or not, your choice), steak cooked just the way you want it, chocolate of any sort coated in any topping (or as a topping on anything you want), and any beer ever made or ever conceptualized, always on tap and never flat. And to get all of this, all you have to do is accept a unicorn into your life.

What? You don’t believe in unicorns? Well, I assure you that they are very real! And I know this because I’ve accepted a unicorn into my life, and I trust that it will one day gain me admittance into the BMCS Club. How could I have accepted it into my life? Well, I just believe in them. And I trust they exist, because there are texts available to me that discuss them, as well as people available to teach me all about them. I mean, after all, with such great eternal rewards, why wouldn’t you believe?

Okay, fine, don’t believe in them – you’re going to end up in the Pushups For Eternity club. That’s where you have to do knuckle pushups on mounds of broken glass with Rush Limbaugh sitting on your back for all eternity. All because you won’t accept a unicorn into your life.

Pretty silly, right? Well, my dear Christian friends, that’s exactly how you sound to an Atheist.

Now, I know that the message of Christ’s death and resurrection sin so that humans can spend eternity in Heaven isn’t being sold by (most) Christians as steak and chocolate and unicorns. That’s not my point. I do not want or intend to discuss the actual merits (or lack thereof) of the Christian faith. My point is simply that you’re asking a group of people to believe in something they do not believe exists, for a reward they cannot prove they’ll ever obtain.

And I’m sure that the first reaction that you, as a Christian, felt toward my example was distinctly negative. I’m sure your feelings ranged anywhere from marginal discomfort to outright repulsion; given the notion that your chosen religion – the belief system that you’ve based everything you know and do around – could be compared to unicorns, steak clubs and push-ups in hell, well… I think I’d be offended myself. But I assure you, it is not my intention to offend you. I have but one goal, and that is to illustrate a single fact:

What you’re currently doing – cold-call witnessing and talking to strangers at the mall about your faith and standing on street corners holding signs that read “REPENT”? Well…

It’s not working.

It’s at this point that you’re probably ready to just write me off as yet another heretic. And that’s your right, and I certainly can’t stop you. However, you need to understand that I didn’t intend to upset you. If I did, however, I will not apologize. Instead, I’d ask that you give me a chance to explain my case by pointing out that your reaction to my comparison actually proves my point:

Confronting a person by attempting to convince them that everything they believe and know is wrong and that you are right is quite possibly the worst way on Earth to persuade them.

But I’m getting a bit ahead of myself. Before I illustrate how your current arsenal of witnessing tactics are not only ineffective, but are actively harming your religion and its’ stance in an ever-growing public consisting of non-believers, I need to give you a bit of background information. And it’s very important that, no matter how much you THINK you know these points, you pay attention to what I’m about to say, because the rapid swelling of the ranks of the Neo-Atheist movement have proven that what you think you know about them is absolutely, unequivocally, 100% WRONG.

First (and most important):

Atheists do not believe there is a God.

Yep, I’m using the definition of Atheism as my first point. And I do this not because I think you don’t know what the word means, but because I’m fairly certain you’ve not yet realized the concept. When you witness to an Atheist, the person whom you are addressing does not believe there is a God – therefore, any information about God, Jesus, the holy trinity, the parting of oceans, great floods, and the creation of man falls on deaf ears.

To put this in more universal terms, you’re attempting to sell a concept for which there is no proof other than the beliefs of men who have spread the word before it.

Whether you like it or not; whether you accept it or not, the fact remains – you’re attempting to convince someone that something they cannot see, feel, hear, or otherwise partake of any empirical evidence of its existence, exists. Regardless of how much you believe in the story and how much it has affected your life and the lives of those around you, they do not.

This is important to understand. Until you do, you’re arguing with a stop sign.

Second, Atheists do not need to believe in a God.

We’ve established that you’re communicating with a person who does not believe what you are sharing with them exists. You’re asking them to buy on faith the fact that spending time in church, telling other people about this belief and living a life based on it may one day reward them. That’s difficult enough. When you add to this the fact that you are not only selling them something you can’t prove exists, but that they don’t even want, things turn from difficult to impossible.

Atheists assert that the foundation for their actions and deeds lie in proven methods related to science and the establishment of undeniable fact. In this, they believe that they have everything they need to live a healthy, rewarding life.

They’re not wrong – no more than you are in asserting that your faith in the tenets of Christianity are all you need to live your life. And that’s the point. It’s hard to convince a man with two working legs that he needs to buy a third, or worse, get rid of his and try the ones you have on. And when he looks for your version and cannot see, feel, touch or otherwise prove that they actually exist, he’s going to completely dismiss you. It’s not personal, it’s just how we work as people.

You’re no different. Think about the last time you heard about a confidence scheme on the news – twenty or thirty elderly couples were duped out of their life savings by a man promising investment returns or selling a product which did not exist. If you are honest with yourself, you’ll admit that your very first reaction – the one you had before you caught yourself and realized that these poor people are victims – was “Holy cow, why didn’t they research it before they invested?”

It’s crazy to buy something you can’t prove exists, isn’t it?

Witnessing is interruption marketing.

It’s unfortunate but true – just about every method of “witnessing” to non-believers equates to human spam. To start, I’ll list just a few of the methods we all know about:

* Knocking on doors and talking to strangers about your new church / Christ / a church-related event designed to get new members
* Cold-calling people from the phone book / phone lists to invite them to your church / discuss Christ and his teachings
* Direct mail campaigns
* Holding up signs on street corners
* Walking up to strangers at Starbucks / the mall / anywhere besides your church
* Handing out literature (i.e. “Chick Tracts”)

This = Human Spam.

It’s really easy to point these out as interruption marketing because… Well, they are. Honestly, they’re low-hanging fruit. Easy targets, right? Probably unfair of me to just pick those and use them to illustrate the tactics all Christians use to witness. So let’s talk about some techniques you may have employed that, to you, probably didn’t come across as brazen as the above mentioned tactics:

* Have you ever asked a co-worker to attend church with you?
* Have you ever asked a stranger to attend church with you?
* Have you ever asked either of the above about their faith in God or Jesus Christ?
* Have you ever shifted a conversation that had nothing to do with church, Christ, or God into a conversation about any of the above?

When you did any of those things, did you notice an eye roll? Did the person groan? Did they shift in their seat and, at the very least, say they would go (or research what you just said, or give the matter some thought) and then never got back to you?

These techniques probably feel natural to you. They feel like you’re sharing the good news of your faith and the joy it brings to your life, and it probably feels great to share that joy with others.

There’s another organization / concept that those involved are equally as glad to share, because it’s changed their life and they can’t wait to spread that good news. This organization thrives on new members. Each individual collection of people works diligently to get more folks into the stable, because the larger they grow, the more they thrive and the farther they can spread the word of this great, life-changing group.

Surely, you know who I’m talking about. It’s called Amway.

Now, before you get up in arms, I did NOT just compare your belief in God and Jesus to selling cleaners and credit cards and pre-paid cellphones. But I did, however, compare your technique of spreading the word about your belief to the technique of spreading the word about Amway.

Again, try to put yourself outside of your own perspective and into the shoes of your intended audience. You’re interrupting their time and space to bring them a message you feel is important. And sure, you have the right to choose your faith and the right to free speech, but as GK Chesteron said, to have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it. And ultimately, “You need to hear this because I need to say it” is the ultimate in self-serving causes… And if you’re serving yourself, you certainly aren’t serving God.

So. You’re dealing with an audience that doesn’t believe that what you want to share with them even exists. They don’t need it. They don’t want to hear about it. Your attempts to share it with them are seen largely as annoying or, at the very least, an interruption in their day. And the result of these tactics is a massive swelling of the ranks of the “New Atheist Movement” (Neo-Atheism) in America and abroad; a movement that has been covered in great detail and has caused great concern within all denominations of the Christian church.

What to do, what to do…

Well, considering the facts, you’ve really only got two choices. The first is to just keep doing what you’re doing. After all, it worked in the past. Your church regularly asks you to do it. It feels good to witness, and at the very end of the day, you can justify a few “lost sheep” if you gave it your best effort, right?

Well… If you’re fine with that – if screaming your message through a megaphone and praying (literally) that someone hears you – is okay with you, well… Look forward to staying as frustrated as you are now (if not moreso). Stay persistent, right?

Well, to quote Seth Godin, quite possibly the most brilliant modern marketing guru alive today:

Persistence isn’t using the same tactics over and over. That’s just annoying.

Persistence is having the same goal over and over.

And the goal is to get people to follow the teachings of Christ and live a Christ-like life, right? Well, telling them to do so over and over again in ways that disrespect their time and personal space is nothing more than simple badgering. It might FEEL like you’re doing the right thing, but as we all know, feeling like you’re doing work, and actually getting work done are two different things. But there’s something you can do that will bring you far closer to your goal than just talking and hoping:

Become the prototype.

Live the example, and let your actions spread the message. Get people to see the merit in the life you live and adopt your practices.

Let’s follow two scenarios – one for each path you can take.

Using the traditional, human-spam model of witnessing, you use interruption-marketing techniques to spread the word about your faith. Because you are Christian, and because you are employing techniques that are unwelcome and unwanted, you communicate the following through your actions:

* Christians would rather be correct than listen to differing opinion.
* Christians do not respect the personal space (mentally and physically) of non-believers.
* Christians feel they are superior to non-believers because they have salvation.
* Christians would rather rely on faith as evidence than rely on fact.

All of these are going to lose your audience. Period.

And as I said before, if you’re fine with that – if you’re okay with the notion that saying the words and annoying or inconveniencing people with your methods of spreading what is supposed to be a message of brotherhood, unity, respect and love… Well, let’s just say that you might need to evaluate the motives behind your actions, for they couldn’t possibly be borne of love, respect or brotherhood.

Did Jesus ever hand out a pamphlet about himself? Did he ever tap people on the shoulder and say “Hey, have you heard the good news about me?” No… Not according to any of the literature I’ve ever read… And I’ve read a lot of it.

No one pays attention to magazine ads and billboards. People use Tivo to skip commercials on television. There are any number of email spam filters available to prevent just that sort of communication from inflicting itself on you digitally. In every segment – including yours – interruption techniques fail.

Considering your audience’s opinion that you are infringing on their freedom to choose not to follow your faith, and their personal space with selling tales of what they consider to be mythical tales and arguments based on belief, you’ve lost before you’ve begun… And to go ahead with that program anyway implies a selfishness that only further harms your cause.

Its time for a new tack.

If I am the target for your message, I’m going to be far more receptive to one that incorporates respect for my time and my belief (or lack thereof). I will probably dismiss, as you do, the one which interrupts my routine and infringes on my time to tell me you’re right and that everything I have spent years figuring out and pondering and basing my life and views around is wrong.

The second scenario, using my proposed example of witnessing by example, you employ the exact methods that Christ himself used to bring people inline with a respect and love based lifestyle. Live the teachings of your faith and sway action by your deeds. It may not feel like it’s as effective as talking and handing out literature – but the rational being will concede that that stuff has already failed everywhere it’s being employed. And ultimately, living the example may not SEEM like it’s as much work as hitting the street to hold posters or cold-call people to invite them to your church… But it’s far less intrusive and far more effective in the long run.

Make no mistake – this is NOT giving up on saving souls or witnessing. Its a changing of tactics, one which requires diligence in action, commitment to the lifestyle, and confidence that those around you are taking notice.

Spreading the ‘good news’ is fine… But its hardly news at this point, and there’s nothing good about not respecting my right to be who I am. And I can’t guarantee or even suggest you’ll convert everyone you meet with this new tact. But obviously, judging by the level of concern within all denominations of the rapidly spreading New Atheism, what you’re doing isn’t working the way you think it should. In fact, its doing more to push people toward the movement you’re fighting so hard against. That doesn’t seem like a good plan to me.

Eventually, living the example will entice someone who is paying attention to ask you your motives, or at the very least, inquire about the specific actions you’re undertaking (such as volunteering for community service, feeding the hungry at a shelter, working with Habitat for Humanity, etcetera). And when they do, you’ll have to engage them in conversation about your faith.

When you do, you should know that electing to enter into conversation with an Atheist equipped with your faith and scripture as tools is akin to electing to explore the ocean with a torch. The equipment you’ve chosen simply will not work in that environment. You can’t blame the environment – after all, it is what it is, and you chose to go there.

So, here’s a few pointers:

* Don’t bring it up first.
* If you do bring it up first, and the other person is disinterested or reacts negatively, just let it go.
* If the conversation does continue, remember that respect is paramount. You’re not right, and I’m not wrong – you simply have faith in something I do not. That’s not a weakness on my part, even when you consider it a strength on your part.
* The faith you have? It’s belief in the absence of proof or fact. That’s the definition of faith. So, don’t offer belief as evidence. You can, however, offer it as motive. “I believe in God” does not prove that God exists. “I volunteer at hunger shelters because I believe in God” does prove that you have a motive for your actions.
* You will not sway an Atheist with promises of eternal reward or threat of eternal damnation. You can’t point to heaven or hell on a map, so there’s no evidence of their existence. Furthermore, bribery and intimidation are the tools of those who seek power, not those who seek redemption.
* The Bible is not regarded as the word of God to an Atheist. It’s a book written by men. Using it as evidence or proof of anything more than your motives for doing what you do is going to be dismissed.

Even if the conversation never ensues, it’s a universal truth that action speaks louder than words. People DO take notice of those who act in accordance with a respect and love based lifestyle. They feel good when they see a person helping another person – and in fact, it makes them want to help out themselves. One need only look at the total figures of collected donations for the victims of Hurricane Katrina and the World Trade Center attacks to see this in action. Deed follows deed. Tell a person what to do, and you may get them to do it… Make them want to do it, and it’ll get done, no matter what.

Ultimately, salvation has very little to do with saying the words “I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God and died for my sins.” There are many, many people – some of whom hold the highest offices in the American government – who say this, and then go on to live lives that, by any account, are not at all Christ-like. How many people in your church have spent a week engaging in debauchery and other ‘sinful’ behaviors, only to appear in church on Sunday, ready to ask forgiveness for what they’ve done? And how many go right back out and do it again? How are these people better than those who live good lives and help their neighbor and further advance brotherhood and unity… But don’t believe in God?

Which of these two types of people would you rather point to and say, “I taught them that?”

If you’re more interested in lip service than in actually influencing people to live better lives, I’d say you need to revisit that book you proclaim to live by and, you know…

…Actually read it

Kelly27's avatar

@Michale I really like Unicorns. ;)

cwilbur's avatar

Woo, teal deer, especially when I hit the point about standing on street corners with REPENT signs.

It’s rather ironic that an atheist who is lecturing Christians about the Christians’ misperception of atheism is so far off in his views.

delirium's avatar

I do love that one, michale.

Michale's avatar

@cwilbur I am a Christian, by the way.

Qingu's avatar

Oh come on. If you’re going to copy and paste from another site, at least mention where it’s from.

Why do so many evangelicals do this? Pro-tip: parroting other websites is not a good way to talk to atheists!

Darwin's avatar

I do like unicorns very much. However, I also like giving credit where credit is due. Flutherites prefer citations if you cut-and-paste.

augustlan's avatar

Cite the source! Otherwise, it’s plagiarism.

Jayne's avatar

Although not the most…concise, argument, I do agree with the general idea of Michale’s uncited excerpt. It is my opinion that it is impossible to argue someone into conversion, because atheism and theism depend on two completely different modes of thought, two distinct logical systems that contradict each other; the one claims that the universe operates entirely on rules and mathematical principles, and the other believes that these principles are not an adequate description of reality. An argument under one axiomatic system can never disprove the validity of another system; the most that can be accomplished is to prove your own system complete and consistent. There is no logical argument that can prove, or even make a convincing case, to a believer that theism is false, or vise versa; the only way a person can be induced to abandon their system for the other is to make an emotional rather than a logical argument. And the best such argument is to show by example that a good and appealing existence can be had under your own system.
Although, of course, I’m always rooting for atheism.

Qingu's avatar

@Jayne, I agree that few people are going to change their mind based on logical arguments alone. But it is possible to make moral arguments against Christianity (which is what I spend a lot of time doing here, in case you haven’t noticed).

I don’t really buy the adage that you can’t changed your mind based on discussions. Yes, an internet argument is not instantly going to change anyone’s minds. But it does expose you to ideas and make you defend things that you may have never even thought about before. So it can certainly lay the groundwork. And anyway, I’ve met a few Christians on message boards that have changed their minds in large part based on arguing with atheists.

That said, I’m not sure that this strategy would work for Christian apologists. Which may be why whole C&P’d blog post ends with urging Christians to act like Jesus and read their Bible. Of course, reading the Bible doesn’t seem like such a good idea either for solidifying Christian faith…

Darwin's avatar

@Qingu – Did Jesus really read the Bible? The whole thing, or just the Old Testament?

Qingu's avatar

@Darwin, I’m pretty sure you’re being rhetorical, since you must know that the NT was written 20 (Paul) to 50 (gospels) years after Jesus died.

I’m not sure what your point is, though. Much of Jesus’ philosophy (as reported in the gospels) seems inconsistent with the OT, but then this wouldn’t be the first time a cult leader used syncretism to co-opt the followers of an older religion and fudged the details. Plus, Jesus’ constant threats of hellfire and torture to anyone who doesn’t follow his cult seem right in line with the childish carrot-stick mentality of the Old Testament god.

Darwin's avatar

JamesL got it. Reread what you wrote.

Qingu's avatar

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Grammar is very difficult at whatever-in-the-morning!

toyhyena's avatar

The community has it’s share of pretentious talkers (must be great to have everything figured out), and I don’t think is overall too inviting to talk of faith. If you throw in parts to your question that make it seem plausible, hopefully some of the agnostics will notice it and you’ll get some good debate. Continue to stand firm in what you believe in though! :D

BBQsomeCows's avatar

those type of atheists are also:

contratheists

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.
Your answer will be saved while you login or join.

Have a question? Ask Fluther!

What do you know more about?
or
Knowledge Networking @ Fluther