Does anyone know how i can avoid crying when my right to speak freely is removed?

Grow a pair? That usually resolves the weeping.

So this is your Question 2.0 in response to this?

Eat some chocolate. :)

Maybe, you could relieve stress and therefore crying by making a mud pile?

My suggestion is that you read guidelines and terms of service agreements before signing up for things, and only frequent places that meet your personal standards instead of storming into established communities and demanding that they change their ways and conform to what you feel entitled to. That bright shiny thing the planet is revolving around? I’m pretty sure it’s not you.

asmonet, you continue to violate the terms and conditions. and as yet i have not even slightly attacked you personally. having fun?

@MacBean: as a matter of fact, the shiny thing isn’t me, but i do appreciate the insinuation that it’s possible. and just for the record, i have been examining this site quietly for some time, as i was wont to do back in the day when people were hailed for fighting for free speech rather than decried. i have asked no one to change their ways, only stated that the ways were in opposition to my own. rather it is those who have responded to this opposition who have made a farce of civil discussion, and been vehement in their disapproval of the freedom of speech that was granted all who have means of expression by a force greater than them (whatever force that may be for you, i judge not in that arena). is it wrong to speak against an oppressive environment? i think not. i must be clear, i am not asking anyone to change anything they do not wish to, only allowing for the possibility of change and (god forbid) gowth, that those who DO see a wrong being done may do something about it. how is that ‘bad’ i am all ears and am more than willing to discuss it civilly.

Please, point out how I am continuing to violate the guidelines in this thread. You know what, never mind, I don’t really care. :)

Here’s me being an ass:

Did you fail out of law school or something? What is happening in your brain?

i wasn’t aware that law school was a requirement to understand the basic principles behind the terms that say ‘personal attacks’ are a violation. i’ll be sure to add that to the list of info i really need in order to succeed.

and it really doesn’t need to be pointed out to anyone that isn’t a sycophant, desirous of your personal favor. but please continue, it amuses me to see people in desperation.

i still await with bated breath your definition of the former sultanate of darfur. PLEASE EDUCATE ME OH EDUCATOR!

You do know that there is no guarantee of Free Speech on the internet, right?

Each website is like a person’s private home. Each website is free to set the rules of engagement and by participating in that website you agree to uphold and behave by those rules.

In this very thread, asmonet does not attack you in any way. Unless you’d like to show us where she attacks you, you should stop making baseless claims. Saying “grow a pair” is not a personal attack, it is a light insult at best, and in consideration of your argumentative tone in the other thread, I don’t feel it is inappropriate.

If you are not willing to follow the site guidelines, then you are not welcome here. This includes letting the site allow or disallow any question they choose. By participating, you agree to these terms, end of sentence. You have no right to claim a breech of free speech because that right never existed here in the first place.

Based on your posts in the other thread, why are you even still on this site if you’ve been banned once? You do know you are becoming a troll, right? I mean, I’m all for explaining and clarifying, but not when you say things like “thank you for wasting my time and energy”.

I have a blog about napping, and the love of napping. (I’m not joking)

Should I be able to delete a post about woodworking? I pay for the site.

There is free speech here. We frequently have discussions about controversial topics. If you know the rules and follow them, it’s very easy to get along here. I have never had a question or comment moderated and I’ve been here for ten months or so, I think. On Fluther, we’re asked to refrain from posting personal attacks, pornographic material, et cetera, because it is common courtesy, not because we’re being oppressed. Those of us who are debating against you are not disapproving of freedom of speech; we’re disapproving of people complaining about the rules and guidelines that keep this a functioning, high-quality community. And you’re not fighting for free speech; you’re bitching and whining that you’re subject to rules and can’t do and say whatever you like, however you choose.

Just because it is on the internet does not mean that it is public… That is why we have moderators and guidelines.. because we want something for this place, and those are the tools we use to make it like WE want it….

ATSYMBOL dynamicduo: there is a guarantee of free speech given in the ability to express, internet or not. to insinuate that there is no freedom of speech is submission to those who would quell that same freedom, not just here but everywhere. you cannot express a desire to speak freely and then deny it to another, regardless of the medium, and not be hypocritical.

a website that is created, maintained and managed by a single individual is like a persons home. i agree, and were this even remotely like that, i would be content to twiddle my thumbs. however this is a site whose function and acknowledged purpose is to ‘tap the collective’, i.e. commune with others. it is moderated by a group of individuals, rather than one individual, and all individuals are allowed to post questions. this takes away the ‘home’ environment and makes it a ‘public’ environment. a public medium is, or at least if it wishes to be a successful one should be, open to opposing stances. this is the very nature of the ‘collective’ and is fundamental to ‘tapping’ it. for further information regarding that, please read any of C.G. Jung’s works on ‘collective unconsciousness’ which go into great detail about it and will be far more elaborate than i care to be at the moment.

as to asmonet’s attacks. they are in fact, personal attacks. an insult is a personal attack, as it is seeking to belittle an individual. to wit, this arose from a private message and is exaggerated here for emphasis. frankly i thought it was funny, witty even, but it was still by definition a personal attack, thus my remark. as to my commentary on another thread, that is another thread, and had nothing to do with this one, but okay, i’ll bite: insinuating that i have no testicles and should invest in growing some is inappropriate to this thread as this is not the thread in which the ‘argumentative tone’ was taken(if one is to follow the line of logic you have chosen). for a more relative commentary, it should have been said in that thread, since that is where the derision came about.

i am more than happy to follow the guidelines of the site, and have done so. no term or condition was violated. i posted a question (with a former account) which spoke out against what i perceived as censorship, and rather than the terms and conditions of ‘personal attacks’ being met (you will be warned of your inappropriate behaviour) the account was deleted. no notice, no warning. since the site has shown me no willingness to follow it’s guidelines, i have chosen to follow them exactly, being extremely careful to not ‘attack’ anyone, promote myself, or broach ‘inappropriate topics’. i will continue to speak as freely as this site will allow, and do so about the matters which should concern all who value their freedom and liberty, regardless of their country of residence.

my right, as your right, to free speech is not governed by any authority on earth. are you one of the moderators, or an owner of this site? if not, then how can you willingly tell another here that they have no right to speak their mind (following, again, your logic, since you say above that you must follow the rules of the house, and if it isn’t your house you can’t speak against the rules, and the rules say you don’t get to make the rules.)?

as to the final line, i must and do apologize for that, as i was a bit incensed and lost my temper a touch. the phrase should not have been typed.

@johnpowell: does your site in anyway speak about (for, against or indifferent) woodworking? is it publicly moderated? does any person who happens upon it have the ability to form general questions about the things they wish to speak about? is that the intent? to build a community of free speaking individuals that ‘expertise’ in various arenas may be discussed? does it desire to ‘tap the collective’?

@adasaismyusernameuidiots
You are wrong in my opinion.. Yes, this is a gathering, for wich you have to register. It is like joining up in a club, with rules etc, that you agree to follow… The club, or in this case fluther, can thus say that this is how we do it here. You are free to say whatever you want, but not here.
Would you say that if a newpaper denied to print a article, full of racial slurrs, hatemessages, graphic sex and such, it would be taking away that persons rights to free speech ?

@adasaismyusernameuidiots I think you don’t quite get the point of Fluther. Yes, the goal is to build a community of free-speaking individuals with a wide spectrum of knowledge, and for people to be able to tap the collective for information. But the people offering their knowledge should actually be knowledgeable and the questions should be genuine requests for that knowledge. Having rules about spelling/grammar, content, the way questions are worded, et cetera, keep us in high-quality questions and high-quality answers. We do sometimes have fun and goof off; we’re not all SERIOUS BUSINESS all the time. But when someone needs us to be, the guidelines ensure that we are. It’s not opressive. It’s helpful.

Your user name barely hides your insidious demeanor. We’re not idiots.

We could debate all day on what you perceive to be your rights here on Fluther, but the bottom line is; that’s not the issue. When we signed up, we agreed to the TOS and we are happy to oblige. When we stray from those terms, we are reminded politely. At that point, we can protest or move on. If we, as a collective, were unhappy, we know who to speak to. If I, as an individual, am unhappy, I know who to speak to. And as always, at any time, I, me, or we, are free to leave.

You have no ties binding you, nor were you granted a gilded invitation that you should feel compelled to accept. The beauty of an internet site is that at any time, the door is open to come or go. You speak of submission and of quelling freedoms. Get a grip, this is not a political rally or a forced election; it’s an internet chat site. As for censorship, yes, we are overseen by a group of fair-minded and eclectic moderators. Do things slip by unnoticed sometimes, yes. Is it cause for great debate and upheaval, no. I prefer to spend my time, at will, in a place where I need not be subjected to hateful and slanderous trash. I’m in a house with young children; I don’t need porn popping up randomly. My sensibilities are mine and your are yours.

Are we being overly sensitive to the attacks of some wis.dm-ers, perhaps. But again, you were not invited, you came of your free will. It is unnecessary for you to try and help us see this mysterious light of freedom you think we are all missing. You need not to try to persuade us to break free of any oppressive regimes; we are not bound.

Your unhappiness is of your own making and stems from your disappointment at the failure of your chosen internet home. That is not our issue, please stop trying to make it so.

@MacBean : i am quite fond of your list of areas of interest. to the point however, what if you were told that ‘autism’ was an inappropriate subject? or, as you list in your areas of expertise, ‘house m.d.’ or ‘harry potter’. this is how i feel about the abridgement of free speech. i don’t wish to ‘change’ anything here, only discuss it. this is the function of asking questions, to inspire thought. and though that thought in this and a few other threads has been to the negative of my stance, it has been an enjoyable bit of thought for me. unlike joseph stalin, i enjoy opposing stances, as they allow me to think in broader arenas.
in this particular case, an account was deleted for stating, first privately (by accident) then publicly (on purpose) that this site seems to be a censor more than a community. that is an opinion, and by it’s nature is neither wrong nor right. it simply is. after the publication of the comment, the account was deleted. this does not reduce the conceptualization of censorship. in fact it makes it more apparent, as removing the voices that speak against you is the very core of censorship.

in no instance have i made a personal attack, i have not introduced pornography, i have not screamed out racial slurs, nor have i screamed fire in a movie theater. i have only spoken against the suppression of opposing ideas, which deleting an account without notice, warning or even a slight snide remark, is easily considered, if the individual has spoken against your methods publicly.

@Staalesen : have i spoken messages of hate? have i posted pornographic imagery? have i in any way violated the terms and conditions of use? i had an account deleted immediately following my publicly stating that i felt this site used censorship as a tool (not a quote, but the point), which it should never be. the statement was not a personal attack, it was ‘well worded’ and well thought out, up until the last line where i said something slightly out of order but still not a personal attack.

@adasaismyusernameuidiots
Then it is my personal righ to say that I belive what you are saying here is a bunch of KAKA…

You can, offcource in a decent Question, by our standards, talk about how you feel, and start a debate over it. what you are doing here is a rally, a demonstration, in my mind it is the like of a small child crying because everything does not go as it wanted..

@adasaismyusernameuidiots I would not know, but if we are a bunch of oppressive assholes why are you still here ? Do you feel that we need to see the light ? Is it your duty to do so ? What If WE like our moderation, does that not entlitle us do have our speech as WE want ?

@adasaismyusernameuidiots – I am reading and crafting a response to your post.

@Staalesen i have yet to so abrasively comment on ANY person here. in fact, i have received more abrasive insults here for even suggesting that this site is censorship ridden, than i did when i was in texas for having long hair. i am here, as i assume you are, to ask questions which i find pertinent and topical. personally, i find abridgements of free speech topical. i have not even suggested that you change your ways, only that there are other ways than hat which has been chosen. how is that so wrong or offensive?

OK. We can argue this all day, but no matter how hard you think it is, every single website is a privately owned website not subjected to the rules of one country, let alone every country. No matter how many people are on the site, it is always a private website unless it is created by the government and even then there are many restrictions.

The fact that this website is a “collective” plays no part whatsoever on the free speech angle. It is a privately run website by Andrew and Ben and they choose to allow members to join and express their thoughts, provided the members agree to conditions. Andrew and Ben hold all rights to denying you OR YOUR WORDS access to the website.

Free speech on the internet is not guaranteed. End of point. This is factually correct. It’s not a submission of anything, it’s just the facts.

Regarding @asmonet‘s “attacks”. Let’s be clear. You were being vicious too in that other thread, as well as in some of your comments here you are condescending. Could @asmonet have been nicer? Sure, but then again a lot of people could be nicer and aren’t. You two were engaged in a heated discussion and you both said some bold things that may not be appropriate.

Do you know of the origins of free speech? I’m sure you do. Then you would know that it is in fact only because of governance via the Constitution in America and other documents in other countries, that guarantees us our right to free speech and free assembly. But the internet has no such guarantees. In place, each website is free to create its own Constitution, and that has been done here in the form of the guidelines

I am not a moderator nor site creator. But I am someone whose opinion is valued here. I have not proclaimed to have any rights to tell you what to do. I am only trying to help you understand your issues with the site, as you seem to be someone who wants to communicate as demonstrated by your following of the guidelines, generally speaking.

I’m not dissuading you from speaking your mind. You just need to follow Fluther’s Constitution and speak your mind in an appropriate way. Otherwise, you are not abiding by our Constitution, and that is just not respectful.

PANTS. Firefox crashed on me as I was sending my reply, and I’d typed it directly into the reply box instead of composing in Notepad first like I usually do. ARGH. [insert mini tantrum]

Anyway, @adasaismyusernameuidiots, the gist of what I was trying to say before my computer so rudely interrupted me, is that if something in my profile were deemed inappropriate, I would be disappointed. I love/am very interested in all of those things and I’d be sad not to be allowed to talk about them. But I would put on my big kid undies, remove it from my profile, and deal with it. Or, if I were really that offended, I’d leave the site.

I really don’t see what you’re complaining about as censorship. The Fluther terms and conditions, which all members agreed to, states that Fluther may change, delete, or alter any information posted on the site without warning and without attribution and may ban any user from using the site at any time. And, again, this is not with the intent to oppress anyone. It’s so that when people arrive and act like shit-stirrers under the guise of being advocates for free speech (or whatever their particular agenda happens to be), the owners, managers and moderators of the site can put a stop to that and try to keep the atmosphere calm and cool.

And now I’m going to bed, before my computer can screw up anything else and frustrate me even more. Shut up, guys. 8:30 AM is a perfectly reasonable bedtime!

Good Night morning, MacBean!

@dynamicduo: free speech: here is definitely an area where we could debate all day, eons in fact. when you read the words free speech, you think of some set of doctrines put in place by men on one continent, in on location. when i write the words free speech, i think of the ability of humanity to open it’s mouth and utter ideas. some ideas, admittedly, suck. others are gems. how are we to get to the gems if we only hear what others think are gems? i am not a complete fool (partial fool perhaps, but that comes with the thumbs), i am fully aware that individuals ‘own’ websites and that as that goes, they will exert the bits of power that makes them feel entitled to (that was condescending). however, i have examined what passes for a ‘motto’ and what passes for an invitation, and these both imply that this is a community dedicated to the free exchange of ideas. that said, how can it be a community dedicated to the free exchange of ideas if the idea that the environment is stifled, is quelled?

and i do hope your computer does not frustrate you further when you awake on the morrow…

One quick note before I go for real. PANTS is the best “curse” word ever because it’s fun to say. It’ll make you feel better. Seriously! Try it! PANTS! So use it, and spread it around!

End of Public Service Announcement
Bean, signing out. BZZT.

[I’m really weird when I’m this tired.]

Sleep well, MacBean.

@MacBean : i have the same problem on occasion. tantrum noted…

that said, how is deleting an account for expressing an opinion that this site is censorship ridden not censorship? i know i keep bringing this up, but this was the behaviour of joseph stalin during his jaunt into dictatorship. those who speak against the state, disappear. those who speak for the state, rise to fame.
i may be completely wrong, and god love the world if i am, but it is my opinion and i should be allowed to speak it to the community in which it happened. as yet i have not said or done ANYTHING that could be constituted as a personal attack, and have actually endured insult after insult to make my point clear that i disagree with the method the site uses to moderate incoming queries. i have told no one that they should change, i have told no one that they are, and i quote, ‘a bunch of oppressive assholes’, and yet i still stand saying the method of moderation smacks of censorship. others have viewed this as a personal attack on them and their website. i rather see it as bringing up a very valid point. and so far, beyond people saying ‘well these people own it and they say this is how it works’, no one has presented an even close to valid argument AGAINST the free exchange of ideas, but only informed me of why i should leave if i think the free exchange of ideas is a good thing.

and for the record, i say PANTS alot=)

I can say that Cencorship is not always a negative, if it is for the reason to keep a debate celan and thughtfull..
And free spech is a joke anyway, atleast in my opinion…
Does you feel that I have the right to talk down about colored people, gays, women ?
Personal attacks can go under freedom of speech in that regard, so rules are there to find the point were most can have a rewarding talk…

in this i will defer to a philosopher of many years of contemplation: how do you find this exchange to be wrong? how is this exchange of ideas a violation, not just of the ‘rules’ of the council, but of the human condition? in expressing the opinion that the council is fallacious, is the opinion wrong or bad?

I cannot speak as to why your account was deleted. That moderator will have to come in and speak for themselves.

With zero moderation, this site would be completely different.

You are free to go build your own website that allows for free speech completely unmoderated. You will see what happens when you do that. You can’t delete spam or trolls, because that’s limiting free speech. Et cetera.

One thing I will say, is that you were not deleted because you expressed an opinion about censorship on this site. That idea is simply ludicrous, we are not in China here. It was deleted likely because you approached it the wrong way.

Here’s an example of the same question phrased in different ways:
“What level of censorship on websites is appropriate?” <—good way to ask, especially if in the details you relate your experience with Fluther in a kind and respectful way.
“Fluther SUX they deleted my question thats so GAY” <—bad way to ask. And it’s not a question.

I’m not saying you did the latter at all, I’m just illustrating how two different viewpoints create the exact same question.

Even the freest of communities still has limits. Look at real life free speech. You can’t yell FIRE in a crowded building. That’s a limit of your free speech.

Fluther’s purpose is not to collect these “gems” of free speech infused wisdom.

As I feel I am batting my head against a brick wall here, I will step back from this Q for some time, but from what I have seen til now, what DD says sums up my opinion in better wording than what I can say….

@dynamicduo : the course of events i have expounded upon previously, though i can relate them again should you like.
it is precisely because this is not china that i have issue. there was nothing of an attack of a personal nature in my comment, though i did very blatantly state that i would inform my fellow wis.dm-ites of the censorship i found here. others did so, if not simultaneously, closely after i did so. following this statement (almost immediately following mind you) my account was gone. i was unable to log in, i was unable to ‘edit the question to suitable standards’). the only element of my statement that could possibly have been even remotely offensive was that last, and i have admitted that that was over the top.
that said, when a question is asked in a kind and respectful way, (e.g. this one, which, until it was brought up by another, had nothing to do with this site) is it appropriate to attack the questioner, to insult the questioner simply because you disagree with the questioners stance as presented by another member?
i don’t mean to imply that you have done this, but it does seem the general concensus that i am a bastard and want to post pornography and scream racial slurs, if one reads the commentary here as a stand alone conversation.

and for the record, one of the first things a new user is greeted with is the slogan ‘tap the collective’. that would appear to be a statement that you can enter into the collected knowledge of this space and learn from it. hence, gems.

but it does seem the general concensus that i am a bastard and want to post pornography and scream racial slurs, if one reads the commentary here as a stand alone conversation.

I fear you are seriously misreading or misinterpreting the previous comments if this is what you believe the general consensus is. Because I can certainly say that’s not what I feel the consensus is. In fact, I don’t feel much of a consensus at all here.

Let’s be honest. There’s been a lot of weirdness these past few days with the flood of wis.dm refugees trying to find a new home. Everyone is a bit on edge recently because of it. The moderators are (probably) tired from seeing the same questions over and over and deleting quips that don’t abide by the guidelines, so if you vocally brought up that you were going to tell all wis.dmers about the oppressive censorship found here, I can see how a moderator would have been frustrated at it, as it only perpetuates the divide between wis.dmers and the rest of the members of the website.

No, it is not OK to attack a questioner simply because one disagrees with them in any format. I understand how you may be feeling riled up because of @asmonet‘s comments, but her comments in this very thread are far from a personal attack, and I feel frustrated that you are continuously bringing this point up when you yourself already admitted that you made a previous comment in the heat of the moment which was “over the top” and apologized for it. Could it be that asmonet was also heated up and made “over the top” comments as well? That said, while it was nice of your to apologize for your comment, there is no burden for asmonet to apologize for hers simply because of equality.

not misreading, rather exaggerating.
and i have never asked for an apology. from anyone. ever. no joke, no lie. my comments regarding her comments (man i sound silly when i say that) were examples of the policy being incorrect. if they were taken literally(the policies) her account would be deleted, or at the least she would receive a reprimand of some form, as ‘insult’ is ‘personal attack’.
as i have said previously, regarding her commentary, i rather enjoy criticisms/insults/attacks, if only because they give me a moments pause about whatever i am doing/say at that moment.

having explained this, i must clarify that throughout this thread (not by you, but by another/others) i have been berated, merely for having an opposing stance. as i have yet to go after anyone in particular, it would be wrong of me to begin to do so now, though it could come across that i am doing so by quoting another patron above.

there is indeed a good deal of oddity with this ‘transition’, but have no fear, i am certain it will settle soon. there are quite a few who feel the nature of moderation is censorship and will be going elsewhere, and quite a few who are quite content with this environment who will stay and enjoy the fruit that comes to them from it. as all things have always done, everything in it’s right place=)

Someone will always berate you in life, no matter what you do. Some people feel better by belittling or insulting other people. Since we can’t control what others think or say, why both getting upset in such situations?

Accounts are generally not deleted when one infringement happens. There is no rule that states that an account MUST be deleted when one guideline is broken one time. We don’t know that she hasn’t been sent a mail by a moderator, so how can you say that she hasn’t been reprimanded without having all the facts?

I understand that the underlying issue of both these paragraphs is the consistent application of the guidelines. But I’m not sure if we can really discuss this with value, because as far as I can tell it only takes one moderator to moderate a question or comment, and thus one mod may make a decision that is not agreed upon by others. Generally speaking though, long time members such as @asmonet are given a bit more leeway than newbies. This isn’t to say the rules are not enforced on them, as their questions have also been moderated at times, it’s just pointing out that yes, sometimes the rules become more flexible when one has been here for a long time and has proven to be a valuable member of the collective. This happens in real life as well. Is it equal? No. Is it fair? No. Will complaining about it on this forum have any impact? Nope.

To be honest, I’d much prefer if things settle down sooner rather than later.

Cute username you idiot.

I expect that several of the more abrasive wis.dmers will be told to shape up or ship out.

With any luck, this will happen immediately.

@johnpowell: and yeah, it’s pretty asinine for someone who calls everyone else on the site an idiot in his username to get upset when other people make what he perceives as personal attacks. Time for @adasaismyusernameuidiots to grow the @#$% up, I think.

@cwilbur :: In the last two days the mods got called Nazis. (*note : two are Jewish) And two members discussed how they want to fuck my mom. I’m kinda pissed.

@johnpowell – exactly. It’s very hard to stay on this high road when they are lobbing such weighted comments like that.

What it looks like from here is that there are probably no more than a half-dozen people who are being really asinine about things, and they’re going to either adapt quickly or get booted. The sooner this happens, the happier everyone will be.

@dynamicduo: it’s very easy to stay on the high road when they get nasty; it’s just really difficult to take them seriously when they claim that they’re perfectly-behaved precious snowflake angels that the nasty censoring Flutherers are ganging up on.

Well, that was rather interesting, being discussed and all. lol4rl.
Sometimes, I do enjoy a bit of havoc, I just can’t help it. :)

I have a nice shoulder you can lean on, it’s not mine though.
It’s alright buddy, I’ve listened to all your video rants and found them rather entertaining. Keep doing what you’re doing and say hi to ole’ three legs for me.

@JellyB So how is Mr. Beansey doing. You know it’s Caturday after all. Shall it be Lintz or Ghiardello chocolate?

@JellyB

Eating frog is better than eating chocolate.

@Staalesen

“colored”?

That is considered an offensive term by those that know the history of Jim Crow.

This discussion is normative, people. It’s not about what rights we have, it’s about what rights we should have.