Is truth more important than morality?

I strongly suggest you give an example to refine your question.

As with all things, it depends on the situation.

For instance, what’s the point in telling your parent on their deathbed about the time you stole from them? Sure you are being truthful, but at that exact time it’s totally inconsequential and pointless to do so.

No. Integrity is more important. Honor & happiness are less important than truth, but morality is more important than embarassment.

I don’t feel like giving an example, but it’s just strange to hear someone say that some things are more important than truth, even though I think I agree. But what about when it comes to things like religion?

Well religion isn’t an issue for me because I am non-religious. So there is no issue there.

But you deal with people who believe what you think of as falsehoods, presumably. What is your approach to them? (with the question in mind, of course)

It depends on how the larger context would be affected :

If, for example, I was in Gaza and I witnessed Israeli soldiers killing palestinian civilians, I would probably report it to their superiors but would lie to the rest of the world, because the truth would be exploited by immoral people for immoral purposes and it would hurt both the larger truth and morality.

I don’t deal with people who believe what I think is a falsehood. Why would I ever care to burden myself with dealing with these people, if they actually choose to vocalize their thoughts regarding my life choices, and always bring it up?

Everyone I associate with is polite enough to not bring up religion as a discussion topic.

Beyond truth, beyond morality, I do whatever makes me personally happy and content.

@Jack_Haas You really think reporting it to their superiors would make a difference? Israeli superiors commission that type of activity. Not telling the world about it would be immoral, I think.

Israeli superiors commission that type of activity ? I don’t believe that at all. I wouldn’t expect my report to make a difference, I would just do what I consider as my duty in the hope that these soldiers are disciplined but it wouldn’t be my main concern.

What I consider immoral is the arab world’s attitude towards Israel, Europe’s posturing, the UN’s visceral anti-Israelism etc. Not letting the world know would, in my opinion, protect morality.

Israel isn’t existentially threatened in any way. Palestine is, IMO. Israel is no one to feel sorry for. They’re the most advanced military force in the world other than the U.S.

I’ve always been a believer in brutal honesty and cannot often live with myself unless I divulge all. That being said, if we’re completely moral, perhaps that would lead us to the ultimate truth? Hmm. Either way, I favor truth over anything.

@Jiminez Of course they are, now more than ever. The EU sides with Hamas, the US has become a question mark, the arab nations use the UN to pass every anti-Israel measures they can think of, and now Iran might get the capacity to destroy Israel without anyone really objecting to that. Israel has impressive military capability but most of the world’s media is against them and inciting antisemitism everywhere.

Shouldn’t morality be based on truth?

Incidentally, I think many religious texts are not only false, but immoral as well.

It depends on that particular truth’s importance imo. What matters to me is the larger truth, the larger context. If one small truth can obscure the big picture and lead to a huge lie then I’ll be happy to sacrifice that small truth.

The EU sides with Hamas

Why is it then that they call them a terrorist organization? That’s your bias coming out. It’s irrational, sensationalist, and untrue.

the US has become a question mark

The US citizens have never been fully supportive of Israel, because Israel is committing genocide and creating apartheid.

now Iran might get the capacity to destroy Israel without anyone really objecting to that

You and I both know that I’m not falling for that. All I ever hear about from US politicians is how Iran shouldn’t be allowed to have nuclear weapons. Again, more bias coming out. This is irrational, sensationalist, and untrue. Israel has hundreds of nuclear warheads. Iran would be obliterated by them if they even tried. And maybe even if they don’t. We’ll see, I guess.

most of the world’s media is against them

Most of the media is against their actions, just like most of the world was against the Nazis’ actions. Is that wrong?

inciting antisemitism

You’re confusing fair criticism with antisemitism, probably intentionally.

Foe me, truth is important for me to know. I do not have to impose what I believe to be the truth on others.

@Jiminez

There is a major discrepancy between European discourse and its actions. The EU is always ready to get along with anti-Israel measures pushed through the UN. EU based media outlets portray Israel unfairly in their reporting. In france, major cover ups have been demonstrated, like the Al-Durah hoax and Arafat’s fake blood donation picture. Try googling Palliwood and you’ll see how European journalists are willing to go along with whatever their palestinian guides, cameramen and Hamas people send their way.

The US has become a question mark because Obama is going European on Iran. We’ve seen how the EU (and Russia) failed to not only stop but even slow down Iran’s pursuit of nukes and the US is now adopting the same attitude. If you base your understanding of world events upon the rhetoric used by politicians you’re in for a serious disappointment.

Israel could never use nukes on Iran as it would mean its own destruction as well. You already see the fake outrage when Israel defends its citizens from Hamas missile launches, imagine the rage that would engulf the world if Israel nuked another country. Their only option is to stop Iran by traditional means.

Media bias against Israel seems pretty obvious to me since I live in Europe and have witnessed it for years, the Russian media is controlled by the state and antisemitism is deeply rooted in Russia, and I don’t have too many hopes about the arab media.

And finally, maybe, if I had met one antizionist who wasn’t a closeted antisemite I could believe there’s a difference between the 2. Unfortunately I was born and grew up in France, where antisemitism is almost ingrained in people’s dna and it gave me a first class training in understanding the insidious forms antisemitism can take.

Edit: For me. Darn my poor keyboarding.

Fundamentally, yes. Truth is a basis for applying morality, integrity and taking action.

Hard to separate the 2 at their best. So they really don’t have to contend with one another, pending odd individual circumstances.

But, like, what’s the point of having a perfectly factually account of something (unrelated to the situation) if that – somehow – means people are being hurt needlessly by others? This is odd coming from someone into learning, which obviously has to do with finding the truth (or even figuring out what truth is), but it’s my gut reaction.

And as Bee (VzzBzz) pointed out, a certain type of truth is needed to apply morality usually… so, it depends on what, in the situation, truth refers to.

Also, since truth can vary person to person, you can get all sorts of disagreements which bring in different people’s understanding of what is moral (which is a bit different from what morality is, perhaps). So, even tho some may say it’s just semantics, it’s important how we define things… in real life, things tend to be less clear cut than abstract concepts are to many of us, which is vital to factor in when applying stuff.

both are so subjective that I don’t think they can be compared.

“Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues.” Abdu’l- Baha

According to ancient Hindu texts, all the world is “Maya”, an illusion, so absolutley nothing in reality is true. All of reality is a giant lie. Humans are not advanced enough, physically & spiritually to be able to see any truth in reality at all.

Glad to see we have progressed in the past 4,000+ years.

We’ve progressed in technology, but a complete scientific understanding of the universe is still lacking. Physicists still don’t know how gravity is formed.

We cannot place one principle, such as “truth” as the highest good. Regardless of the textbook definition, each person will view the concept of truth a little differently. Humans are not oxen that can be herded around mindlessly preaching one concept as a unified guiding principle. We are not cows. Any attempt to unify humanity under one enforced standardized belief is Orwellian & doomed to fail. My comment about Maya is a simple illustration of natural human rebellion to brainwashing.

Now let’s talk about Palestinians again so we can really clarify the essence of this issue…

But we know what it is to be honest and truthful with our words and actions.
That is the place that all virtue starts.

We have a choice to be truthful or not.

As an honorable concept, yes, truth is an excellent motto & practice, but to say “truth is the most important thing” smacks of tyranny & control of others.

I didn’t say that.
The quote said truthfulness was the foundation.

Without truthfulness, how do we move forward?
Who do we trust?
Isn’t that what is happening right now with the global economy?
Lack of trust?

It seems to be a regression to say that a focus on truth would lead to tyranny when it is truthfulness and respect for others which has helped to end tyranny over the years.

They’re more or less at the same level: Unimportant. Why?Because they depend entirely on your personal point of view; they’re different for everyone of us. There is no ‘right’ moral and no ‘absolute’ truth.

Actually the global economy was derailed by widespread acceptance & use of an innovative mathematical equation designed to calculate risk. As any gambler knows, risk cannot be exactly predicted by an equation.

@James17555 I wholeheartedly disagree. If you hurt someone, that’s wrong. They’ll be the first to tell you that.

Think for yourself.

@psyla – So, what you are saying is that they trusted a mathematical equation to assess thier risk?

What exactly is risk, in this case?
Is it an assessment of how much they could trust that people would pay back the loans they took out?

Would the same thing have happened if people had been honest with themselves about what they could or could not afford?

I don’t see how personal budgeting is a subjective issue, unless that person is not being honest with themselves when planning the budget or not being honest with themselves when they decide to step outside the boundaries of their budget.

Same goes for businesses. My last boss used to talk about how the company would be fine because he had a line of credit and stocks to fall back on, if need be. But he refused to do a budget and never once looked at a profit and loss statement in the two years I was there. Was he being honest with himself about his responsibilities to his company and its employees?

@psyla, I think you’re vastly oversimplifying the Hindu concept of Maya. Even in Hinduism there are several strains of thought about maya.

And in the real world, the concept of an “illusion” is not as simple as it seems. For example, in one sense, the solidity of your chair is an illusion. You do not actually touch your chair. In fact, your chair (and your body) are both largely composed of empty space. Only a small part of atoms are made up of matter. The sensation of “touch” is not caused by any actual contact between these bits of matter. Rather, it’s caused by electromagnetic repulsion between atoms.

So is “touch” an illusion” Yes and no. Because on the other hand, I think our subjective experience of touch, internalized in brain, forms a separate strand of reality that functions alongside the physics of electromagnetic repulsion.

Also, on a larger scale – socially & in terms of time – right now morality is more important to stress, in a sense. We already know so much about the physical world around us, and have gained such a mastery over it, that the power we (some far far more than others) got from that – along with the changes it brought – has overtaken our ability to adapt, as social beings, in a way which keeps those shifts from causing immense risk to us all – as well as unnecesary suffering and exploitation. Both are moral issues to a degree.

But to recognize that, and especially to adapt the way we all must in order to survive – and to allow many others to live lives without such marginalization and exploitation (and preventable hardship resulting from that) – we need to know truth about what causes that, and seek perhaps a different sort of truth to guide us in the effort to stop/minimize those unjustices.

Part of what causes the injustices to continue, though, is an overfocus on a very specific sort of truth (mostly relating to making better technology) – the kind which is worthy to find out, but currently doing so, in hidden ways, gives more & more power to the people and forces which exploit.

So, as i said in my previous comment, what we mean by truth is vital…. in certain contexts, including humanity’s current one, pursuing one truth while neglecting the pursuit of others (and an informed, more socially-aware sort of morality) is not just an unimportant thing to be doing right now, but a very harmful thing, despite not commonly being viewed as such.