In Europe and Canada, people are thrown in jail for questioning details of the Holocaust. Do you support this and why?

No, I don’t think there should be similar laws. Free speech, and all that. People who deny the Holocaust are saying more about themselves than the Holocaust.

@Likeradar

That’s a good answer and fairly common. Most people in Europe and Canada would agree with something along those lines. So how have these laws been allowed to pass and why is the “nobody is free so long as others are oppressed,” or the “Evil is only allowed to flourish when good people do nothing” crowd standing by and doing nothing while folks are thrown in Jail for coming to unpopular historical opinions.

Just to be fair, I am of the opinion that the story of 6 million people being thrown into gas chambers and than incinerated is complete nonsense

I can’t see how that would help.
It would just seem like a cover-up after a while.

@TheIowaCynic Wow, really? How do you get around the physical evidence? And the human stories?

No. As @fireside said (or implied at least), it actually seems counterproductive to its intended purpose. I’ve talked to a number of Muslim Holocaust deniers who bring up the ban in Europe as “evidence” that it’s a cover-up.

@fireside

I agree and yet it happens all the time and gets very little press. I think people who love freedom should look upon this trend and shutter. Allowing the government to proscribe the correct reading of history is terribly dangerous.

@TheIowaCynic And it’s closer to 12 million. 6,000,000 Jews, 6,000,000 other people.

The evidence is pretty harrowing…

@TheIowaCynic, thank you for proving my point.

I’m curious as to what exactly you think happened. What do you think the Nazis were doing in those camps? Or do you think the Jews built them afterwards? Can you please explain exactly how you think the evidence is faked and to what extent?

@TheIowaCynic Your denial of one of the most well documented events in human history really undermines your credibility with every other answer you might give on this site or really anywhere else, for that matter.

For the record, I happen to disagree with the criminalization of Holocaust denialism. Let the fools have their beliefs.

@Likeradar This is a HUGE discussion. The physical evidence you refer to is actually remarkably thin and/or non-existent. There have also been tremendous revisions in the official story, including discarding many ideas that people were hanged for at Nuremburg. What the evidence boils down to are a few pictures of emaciated bodies, heaped on top of each other and first hand accounts, many of which have proven to been wild exaggerations.

I’d be happy to point you in the direction of videos or literature of people who have presented these cases if you’re interested. I can assure you, your mind would be completely blown

I think the true test of our democratic society is allowing Ahmenajad to say what he wanted while he was in NYC.

Wonder what would happen if our President went over there and said, well, anything.

@Qingu That’s a huge discussion and not really the point of this question. What I wanted to focus on is the law regarding prosecuting people who talk about this stuff and if that’s a good idea.

Please do not forget the hair, possessions, clothing, etc. And the drawings. And the chambers.

THIS IS WHY WE(THEWORLD) NEED TO GIVE MONEY TO THE AUSCHWITZ MUSEUM. THEY ARE RUNNING OUT OF FUNDING TO PRESERVE THE PROOF.

What is the exact law, TheIowaCynic?

@TheIowaCynic I can also point you to evidence that the world is flat, and that babies are brought by storks.

@Likeradar and @Qingu and @everyone else who has ever actually studied history…TheIowaCynic has made up his/her mind. If s/he really wants to believe that six million people were, I don’t know, wisked off into space, nothing we can say or do will change his/her mind. His/her view is twisted, and cannot be untwisted by us.

There is a word for people like that: trolls.

@TheIowaCynic, I could show you some websites documenting how the government covered up aliens at Roswell. It would blow your mind.

It doesn’t have to be a huge discussion. Just tell us to what extent, and how, you think the Holocuast was “faked.” You can start by telling me why the concentration camps were constructed if not for enslaving and killing people.

Anything that perpetuates anti-Semitism should be illegal.

I know people who were in the camps. I had non-Jewish relatives in the camps. The Holocaust is real. It happened.

@TheIowaCynic – Suck it up and get over it.

I think people have the right to question whatever they want, and thats how history evolves. Just look at Gone with the Wind. The themes from that movie were common themes believed about the Reconstruction Era, and only changed when people begn to question, just like what is happening now. By no means am I arguing that the Holocaust did not happen. I just think that by questioning it, we allow ourselves to gain greater knowledge.

@Michael The documentation you refer to actually doesn’t exist as most think it does. I used to think as you did. Here’s a “for instance”: From the end of WW2 up until 1989, the “official” number of people murdered at Auschwitz was put at 4 million. Since Westerners have been allowed to visit the camp and examine it, that number has dropped to 1 million (and the ugly truth is that they’re having a very difficult time substantiating that number or explaining the physical problems with the gas chambers)

Yet the official 6 million number has not changed. How does one explain this? This is one of many many many problems with the Physical evidence

@Darwin

Anything that perpetuates anti-semitism should be illegal? So if somebody uses a bad name to describe a jew, they should be thrown in jail? You’re not serious are you?

But most importantly, why would questioning the number of people killed be anti-semetic. That is the dumbest response I’ve heard yet

@TheIowaCynic – You think Auschwitz was the only camp where Jews and other “enemies of the Reich” were killed or allowed to die of starvation and disease?

I’m pretty sure that 6 million was first used by Elie Wiesel. He may not have had the exact number, but I’m sure it was close enough to not discount the atrocities.

this is about the point I refer back to my original answer about how Holocaust deniers are saying more about themselves than the Holocaust

@Likeradar Out of curiosity, how do you know this? Are you suggesting that 12 million people were gassed and incinerated? Do you have numbers to support that?

@TheIowaCynic – Claiming that the Holocaust never existed is claiming that someone, most likely the Jews, made it up. That implies the Jews are no good. Hence, you arrive at anti-Semitism.

@Likeradar I know why you think as you do radar, but if you were to really examine closely, what you think you know you’d be very surprised.

@swimswimswim By all means, study and question. There are always new things to be learned about history, especially something as complex as the Holocaust. But there is a difference between wanting to learn more / questioning certain aspects and questioning the overall “event.”

‘What factors led to the Civil War?’ is a legitimate historical inquiry. ‘Did the Civil War actually take place?’ is not.

@Darwin, I don’t agree with you at all.

@TheIowaCynic, I don’t really understand what you’re saying. Let’s make a huge leap and assume you’re correct—the figure has been exaggerating from 1 million to 4 million to 6 million dead Jews. Even if this is the case, that would still me 1 million Jews were systematically exterminated. If that is the case, then why are you claiming they made it up? Shouldn’t you just be claiming that they exaggerated the number of victims?

And of course, I’d love to see your sources for who these “Westerners” are who determined the number of victims, but hopefully you’ll answer some of my other questions first.

(ADDENDUM: I didn’t realize you were only talking about the figures for Auschwitz. Which makes your argument even stupider. What exactly are you arguing? It would really help if you came out and told us a positive claim, i.e. what you actually think happened in history, as opposed to what didn’t happen.)

Quite honestly, I don’t feel the need to explain facts to you. I know you’ll take that as a cop-out, but anti-semitism isn’t worth my time.

@Darwin This is interesting. Tell me what should be illegal? This is good. What if somebody suggests 4 million, instead of 6. Should they go to jail? In the last 30 years, people have dropped the “soap made from jews” and “lampshades from Jewish skin story.” Should people be thrown in jail for wondering about that?
People have been thrown in jail for publishing scientific reports on the gas chambers at Auschwitz. What does that avail us?

Should people be thrown in jail for questioning the number of Armenians killed by the Turks? Should people be thrown in jail for wondering how many Ukranians were killed by Lazar Kagonovich?

I think everyone should immediately stop equating Holocaust-denial with anti-Semitism.

High correlation, but they are not the same thing, and such poor logic feeds the mentality driving people like this dude.

@Likeradar

Wondering if the number of Jews killed by the Germans is 6 million in no way equals anti-semitism. And yes, that IS a copout. It’s worth considering. What you think you know is based upon very emotional documentaries and movies. Look into it, even if its tough

@TheIowaCynic, again, it would really help if you stopped telling us what you don’t believe and start telling us what you do believe. Any idiot can “question” history.

And going to Auschwitz and seeing it for myself. What I know is based on going there and seeing it for myself and hearing the history first hand. Thanks for your awesome assumptions on where we learn.

@Qingu The point of this question is why there are laws proscribing correct and incorrect views of the holocaust and what purpose the serve. Getting into a detailed description of what I think happened to the Jews of Europe is a totally different conversation.

But let’s say I think the whole thing is a bunch of bunk….that the Nazi’s just loved Jews and treated them very nicely (not the case, of course) Is that a jailable offense?

@Qingu I think that what happened is rather simple, but this is besides the point. In any wartime, propaganda becomes outrageous as the recent Iraq war tells us. You wouldn’t believe what the American people were told in WW2. They were meant to think that Germany and Japan were about to invade mainland America. I did my senior Thesis on this. It was ridiculous. What has happened is that we’ve never failed to re-examine, what was useful propaganda at the time; the stuff that would make us think it was OK to drop bombs on German appartment building and this kind of stuff.

We’ve allowed some of these stories to take on a life of their own….....that’s the basic outline of what I think happened and why

No, people are perfectly within their rights to say any damn stupid thing they want.
They’ll just be marginalized for doing so.

Unless it is against the law, then they’ll be arrested.

@TheIowaCynic, very well. I’ve started a new question. I certainly hope you’re intellectually honest enough to actually participate in defending your position there.

@EmpressPixie

There’s a great documentary on Auschwitz and the actual tour itself, put out by David Cole. I’d encourage you to look for it on YouTube. At Auschwitz, there was a swimming pool for the inmates as well as a theater, hospital (think about that for a minute) and even a jail for misbehavers. I don’t imagine it was nice, but the evidence doesn’t really point to it as being a big, ugly death camp where people were gassed and incinerated.

But I keep bringing this back to the main point.

Should people be thrown in jail for asking about this or coming to the wrong view? Should this be a crime?

I do not agree that one can separate Holocaust denial from anti-Semitism. Anything that helps perpetuate the belief that Jews are somehow inferior or evil or conspiring leads directly to the possibility of yet another pogrom or Inquisition or Holocaust or whatever you want to call it. In fact, anything that tries to convince other people that any culturally, ethnically or racially defined group of people is inferior and so deserves second-hand or worse treatment should be penalized.

BTW it is not illegal to deny the Holocaust in Canada. It is illegal to incite racial or ethnic hatred. Most of the countries where it IS illegal are either countries where the Holocaust was carried out so they know their own history and regret it, or they are countries that have many other limits to free speech.

And one more time: Auschwitz was NOT the only camp where Jews (and many other people) were deliberately killed, starved, experimented on, and allowed to die of preventable disease. The 6 million figure includes those who died in the Polish ghettos, in French camps, packed in cattle cars, shot by the police, or murdered by ruffians disguised as Nazi party supporters.

And you may think what you want, but as soon as you try to persuade others, then you are perpetuating hate.

@fireside And they certainly are marginalized or beat up or killed or thrown in prison. I wonder why that is.

@Darwin, you can deny the Holocaust—and certainly claim that it’s exaggerated (not clear what this dude is doing, exactly, since he seems incapable of plainly stating what he believes did happen)—without implying that Jews are “inferior” or “evil.” Again, I think that is illogical and your conflation makes stupidity like this more commonplace because you give them fodder for their conspiracy theories.

@TheIowaCynic – not in this country.

Um… they certainly weren’t showing that the day I was there. Let’s just put it that way. Well, I mean, they did show the “jails”. They were awful. Tiny and you had to stand. Basically little torture boxes. They also showed us the gas chambers and the evolution of their design based on artifacts left behind.

Also, where exactly do you think the Pinkas Synagogue came up with it’s lists? They just made that stuff up?

@Darwin God, where to even begin answering that? How does wondering how many people died = wishing them dead or hating Jews? That’s complete nonsense. You still haven’t answered my questions earlier about what should be a jailable offense. Is questioning the number of Ukranians killed by the USSR a crime that should get people thrown in jail? Or the Armenians? C’mon now….....those are legit questions.

Finally, I see the holocaust as something that is perpetually used to JUSTIFY violence; whether it’s dropping bombs on Belgrade or the IDF massacring Palestinians or America needing to go in and kill more people “stopping the next Hitler,” or the next genocide, is always the excuse used…..so I reject your line of reasoning entirely. It doesn’t make any sense. Wondering about the details of the Holocaust is not perpetuating hate in any way whatsoever.

I actually agree that the Holocaust is often used to justify oppressive action.

I don’t see what that has to do with the truth-value of the Holocaust itself, though. (Or with the topic of this thread.)

Actually, this is the exact same logic that the 9/11 truthers use. Since 9/11 the 9/11 attacks were used to justify all kinds of horrible bullshit, obviously it’s all a big conspiracy made up by the people who wanted to use it to justify all kinds of horrible bullshit. Of course, denying the Holocaust would be the equivalent of claiming that the two towers didn’t actually blow up and the 3,000 people who died were just chillin’ in Texas.

@Qingu

The whole concept of “denying the holocaust” is beyond Orwellian when you think about that language. Jews were CLEARLY targeted by the third Reich and many of them killed. So where does the line of “denial exist”? That 5 million died? 2 million? What if someone, as I do, wonders about the 6 million number?

@Qingu Are you brave and willing to consider unpopular things? Go to the rather sarcastically named webpage www.holocaustdenialvideos.com

Let’s take it to the other thread, please.

same shit, different day.

Having had a marvelous history instructor in the 9th grade who was a survivor of Auschwich, I cannot imagine anyone being able to NOT believe that the holocaust killed millions of people, a large percentage of them gassed & incinerated. Aside from the Muslim religion which denies the holocaust because they want to deny the Jews their humanity, I cannot understand WHY anyone else would deny that the holocaust happened. If we do not insist upon humanity learning of the details of the holocaust, then we are setting ourselves up for it to happen again.