If the Holocaust didn't happen, what did, exactly?

Let me tell you something about the Iowa Cynic.

He’s a former wis.dmer that moved here. In all my discussions with him, he’s never actually denied the Holocaust. He just questions the 6 million number.

So how many Jews (and others) does he think the Nazis killed, exactly? I saw a 1 million figure in the other thread but it was in a pretty irrational context so I’m not sure.

Germans targeted Jews, attempted to throw them out of the country and killed many of them. In the Eastern Nations they allied themselves with, similar laws were passed and many ended up on concentration camps. It was a war where 60 million were killed, in total and many of them were Jews. What I question are the stories that we get told after that universally acknowledged set of truths…......the gas chamber, incineration chamber stories simply don’t add up.

So you don’t really deny that the Holocaust happened. You just don’t think it was quite as Holocausty as the Jews are always bitching about?

@Qingu I don’t like the term “that the jews are bitching about”

I think that in a war where 50 million people died, there is a HUGE difference, from an historical standpoint, between 6 million being systematically thrown in gas chambers, and a half a million dying of a variety of causes.

I’m gonna back away from this question before I get suspended.

Let me ask you a related question. Who do you think blew up the Twin Towers on 9/11?

You don’t think they were thrown in gas chambers?

What were the gas chambers for, then? Again, if you’re going to deny a historical explanation, you have to propose an alternate one that makes sense of the evidence.

I mean, do you think the gas chambers were constructed after the fact by Jews so people would feel more sorry for them? Or what? What’s your explanation?

My grandfather liberated one camp in Germany at the end of WW2… The stories he told me were horrific.

The NAZI’s own records indicated that they killed upwards of 11 million people in the concentration camps (mostly but not entirely Jew’s). The exact number is not known as the NAZI’s tried to eliminate all records of what they had done when they realized they were going to lose the war. But 11 million is the widely accepted statistic.

@TheIowaCynic, I took a look at the webpage you posted in the other thread, but I really don’t have the time to spend hours watching all of these videos. I also can’t debate the people who made those videos. I can debate you, however, which is why I’m asking you to summarize and support your position. Any idiot can link to websites. Let’s see if you’ve actually internalized the arguments you’re citing.

Go to any of the camps. visit the museum in Washington D.C.
it happened.

it was more than just Jews. It was gypsys, homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, political opponents, the mentally ill, anyone who was considered “unfit” by an ologarchy of nutjobs.

“You just don’t think it was quite as Holocausty as the Jews are always bitching about?”

Why would people make up such a horrible experience? There are documents, photographs, eyewitness testimony, and even the concentration camps themselves… what other explanation can you give for that?

@westy81585 Your’e actually dead wrong about the Nazi records. I challenge you to produce one for us.

@Qingu You need to watch the following video. It will explain all of this, for you. It’s the first of 8 parts that you’ll find available.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXKHw0EZrqM

I would question the validity of the statement “the gas chamber, incineration chamber stories simply don’t add up” have you ever seen a concentration camp in person? Because I have and those things are there, clearly having been used.

@Qingu Dissecting a positive requires a great deal more explanation than I can muster here. Let me give you a few “for instances” 2 separate tests, one meaning to refute the prior test, have both determined that the supposed “gas chambers,” at Auschwitz were never exposed to Zyclon B. At Treblinka, where 700,000–2 million Jews were apparently killed, buried, dug up and incinerated on open fire pits…...they have shown that the ground could never had had any mass graves in it in the past 100,000 years. Those are two, very simple “for instances”

@adreamofautumn you have? Tell me which camp.

@TheIowaCynic http://books.google.ca/books?id=lpDTIUklB2MC&pg=PP1&dq=Niewyk,+Donald+L.+The+Columbia+Guide+to+the+Holocaust&sig=4igufxQHRCNrkjwRuMt1if_mf5M#PPA50,M1

@eponymoushipster I’ve read it. I“ve also read Hilberg’s 3 volume series. They do not explain the unexplainable or answer the obvious problems with the physical evidence.

Points in the video:

• Auschwitz had prisoners from a lot of places and was a labor camp
• The evidence supporting the Holocaust is questionable (gives one tenuous example)

The video’s narrator then takes us on a tour of Auschwitz. (“A mix of crass commercialism and religious reverence.”)

5 minutes in, I’m getting bored and annoyed. I’d appreciate it if you made your own points instead of linking me to videos that take a lot of time to watch, make my computer hot, and to which I cannot easily respond or interact with.

Also, why do people think it’s okay to put a scrolling block of text on a video, read from it, and post it on Youtube? Seriously, what the hell? Subject matter aside, that is simply not a good way to communicate ideas.

I went abroad to Germany in 2004 while there I went to Nazweiler-Struthof (a smaller camp, but still a camp) in France.
I also have a number of friends majoring in Holocaust and Genocide studies in my school that have gone abroad with that program and been to Auschwitz. The pictures are disgusting and there aren’t even people there any longer.
At the camp in France I was beyond repulsed.

I have pictures of the empty rooms with the drains in the middle for when people were executed for the blood to run down into. I have pictures of the incinerators. I am in school right now on a laptop, but given the chance to get to a scanner I would be more than happy to scan those pictures for you.

@TheIowaCynic, I’m not asking you to “dissect” a positive. I’m asking you to PRESENT a positive.

Right now all you have done is attempt to discredit the theory by poking holes in a small number of its supporting claims. Any idiot can do this. You have not actually explained what you think really happened.

You can start with telling us what you think the concentration camps were for. Just slave labor? What about the gas chambers? Don’t link me to a video, just tell us what you think and why you believe it.

@Qingu OK…..I gave you two examples. There’s also no piece of paper or speech given by any member of the third reich, discussing this remarkably huge plan to eliminate 6 million Jews.

@TheIowaCynic you’re obviously a very ignorant person. I’ve been to Auschwitz. How can you deny what’s there? What benefit would it be to all these groups (not just Jewish people) to falsify this stuff? and how could they?

we can’t get people in ONE COUNTRY to agree on things. How do you get all these groups together to lie about something?

you’re the one who obviously can’t put the evidence together, and for that i pity you.

Dear god. Everyone needs to ignore this troll. You cannot argue with him. He will simply say, “No, you are wrong, THEY have found blah blah blah.” And then you say, “But what about X and Y and Z?” And then he will say, “Yes, I’ve read those, and they are wrong/do not address my points/have been refuted.” No links to credible sources. No actual evidence.

You cannot argue with a conspiracy theorist. They will always come back with some version of, “that’s just what they want you to think…”

Forget it. TheIowaCynic is looking for attention and validation for his obviously discredited viewpoint. Please don’t give it to him. Don’t feed the trolls.

@Qingu

They were work camps, complete with a swimming pool, art studio, theater, exercise yard, hospital and dental clinic. They were clearly work camps.

As to the gas chambers, as I’ve said…...several studies have shown that the bricks in the alleged gas chambers were never exposed to Zyclon B.

Nice pool.

@Michael, I’m not expecting to change his mind with a conversation on the internet. But I think it’s important to argue with these people.

I remember back in college they made us learn why the earth revolves around the sun. It’s easy to just say “everyone knows that!” and dismiss geocentrists as morons. But I think it’s important to actually be able to make an argument for why the truth is the truth. So even if we don’t change the conspiracy-theorists mind, at least we become better acquainted with our own reasoning.

@TheIowaCynic I repeat have you EVER actually SEEN a death camp or a work camp or a concentration camp???

“swimming pool, art studio, theater, exercise yard, hospital and dental clinic.”

^^^this indicates to me that you have not. You’ve read about them in book with faulty historical reasoning. Btw any examples you did find of such things would have been in Nazi camp quarters for the killers use.

@eponymoushipster I really can’t recommend David Cole’s (a jew) documentary of the Auschwitz tour itself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXKHw0EZrqM

It’s an 8 part series

@Qingu you’re actually right Qingu and I would encourage you to think about this as thoroughly as possible and have rational answers ready.

@TheIowaCynic, you gave me no examples. You told me the positive claims which you’ve disputed. You have yet to tell me what on earth you think the camps are for. Let’s hear it, please.

And again, stop linking to videos. I can also link to Youtube videos that support the Holocaust. Neither of us can debate with videos.

Do you think Rwanda happened? Armenia? Bosnia-Herzegovina? Or do you just believe that all genocides are a flight of someone’s (sick) fantasy?

@TheIowaCynic Since the Holocaust is an accepted historical fact by the United Nations, the governments of virtually all civilized nations, and all thinking people, it is not up to us to prove to you it happened, it is up to you to disprove it. You have offered no credible evidence here to back up your claims. They essentially amount to ravings.

@Qingu Fair enough. I can understand that. In general, however, I prefer not to dignify their quackery, especially not on the internet.

@adreamofautumn Actually…...you’re wrong. Consider watching the videos on the link I have posted. I dont’ doub that the tour of Auschwitz was very powerful, but the gas chamber story simply doesn’t hold water.

Also, I’m very very curious to know who @TheIowaCynic believes was behind 9/11. Would you mind telling us?

A little perspective.

@Qingu I have no idea. I’m assuming the bombers were probably behind it and supported by a wide network of folks.

@TheIowaCynic, who are “the bombers”? Not al-Qaeda?

Really, just a yes-or-no answer to “Was al-Qaeda behind 9/11” will do at this point. I don’t want to derail the thread.

if you don’t believe the gas chamber story holds weight…what do you propose they were there for? Decoration?! Also…I still want to know if you don’t believe in all genocides or just this one?! And how do you justify incinerators?
I am willing to hear your point, but you need to make a point. And as stated above i’m not spending 10 minutes watching some idiot read something I can read myself if he’d shut up.

@eponymoushipster, comments like that really are not constructive.

@Marina

OK. No gassed body was ever presented at the prosecutions. Not one. There is not a single, solitary speech given by HItler or any of his henchmen, referring to a complete elimination of jews by killing them. The Gas chambers at Auschwitz are, admittedly, reconstructions and their brick show no evidence to having been exposed to zyclon B. At treblinka, there is no evidence of mass graves, where apparently 700,000 Jews were buried, dug up and cremated. Those would be 2 of many questions…..but actually, the proof that it DID exist would be on those suggesting that it is…....it’s a very widely acknowledged story, but the actual evidence behind it, is remarkably thin

@TheIowaCynic I said Cole was Jewish so that nobody might suggest he’s making his presentation on the hopes of someday eliminating all Jews. As to the rest of what you say, it’s nonsense

Proving Your Point Fail.

Did you seriously just @ respond to yourself?

@asmonet no, you saw that but it didn’t really happen. duh ;)

Silly me, you’re right.~

@TheIowaCynic given that i’m studying in a history program in a well ranked university at the moment where we have one of the best genocide and holocaust studies programs in the United States. If you are interested in waiting (probably awhile since I have schoolwork) I would be more than happy to write you a long bibliography of primary and secondary sources disputing your claims.

Snap.

@robmandu – i love that sketch. one of my favorites.

@TheIowaCynic Ummmm there’s thousands of pages of proof that the NAZI’s left regarding the “Final Solution to the Jewish Problem”, written by Heimrich Himmler you jackass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Solution

My grandfather told me the stories about when his squad walked into a concentration camp and skeleton people ran up to him begging for food. He walked firsthand in the gas chambers and saw the STACKS of hundreds of bodies.

@adreamofautumn

Also, the incinerators tell a great story of how the Holocaust has grown to what it has become. There was a typhus epidemic all throughout Europe and in the Camps. The prisoners heads were shaved when they came into the camp, not to dehumanize them (although I’m sure it was) or to use the hair to make mattresses for German women (this has actually been suggested) but to prevent the spread of this disease. The 2 crematorium at Auschwitz were used to incinerate the people who died there, so as to prevent further spread of the disease. This was common and every major city in Europe at the time had crematorium used for the same purpose. It’s been shown that these to crematorium could not have possibly incinerated 5 or 4 of 3 or 1 million people in 3 years, or even half a million people.

@TheIowaCynic, can I get an answer on whether or not you’re a 9/11 truther please?

I think this answer will probably help the other posters understand what’s up with you.

@TheIowaCynic you’re not a history student are ya?!

and by that I mean…the Himmler reference mentioned above is well documented. You should probably read books that don’t just support your view, but both sides and get an even perspective.

@adreamofautumn Interesting! I’m in a PHD program for history as well (Although I won’t tell you where for fear of losing my position) I’ll make you a deal: It’s a deal I can assure you that you won’t regret. If you watch the video of David Cole at Auschwitz as well as the VERY entertaining and funny video series “one third of the holocaust,” I will, in exchange, agree to read, listen to, or watch anything you have to present. Does that sound good?

@adreamofautumn Not only am I a history student, I am a history GRADUATE student. My field of expertise is the early Roman Republic but I’ve been increasingly interested in this line of historical revisionism.

@TheIowaCynic you still haven’t explained how a variety of juxaposed groups have been able to all agree on the same facts without problem or error? or are you just ignoring that because you can’t explain it?

@TheIowaCynic There are literally hundreds of thousands of firsthand witnesses and confessed NAZI guards who admitted that the mass extermination of millions of jews and other dissidents took place during the holocaust. If you were in Germany right now, you’d be arrested for denying the holocaust. Millions of people died because of a few crazies in Germany, and we sacrificed SO MUCH to free them and rid the world of that pure evil, and you’re here saying it’s bullshit…. You literally sicken me, and I pray to god you don’t ever have children and fill their heads with this nonsense. May god have mercy on your soul.

@Qingu I’m going to guess I’m not because I don’t know what that is. Do I think it’s possible that elements of the U.S. government were involved, or that much of the common story is bunk? Sure, that’s possible. I also think that George Bush telling us that they blew up those towers because they “hate our freedom” is a bunch of nonsense

still ignoring a valid question.

I see, I see.

Well, at least you’re consistent in your approach to history. Is there anything you do believe actually happened in history?

@westy81585 There are actually not hundreds of thousands of witnesses. I’d encourage you to read someday, about the Nuremberg trials and what took place there. People were hanged for having made soap from Jewish fat and lampshades from their skin; things we know nowadays to have been false. Doctors AND Lawyers quit those trials after witnessing the abuse of the defendants and their regular torture.

What I can assure you, is that if you were to do a detailed study of this and see what everybody has to say from every side, you would realize that much of what you have been told is nonsense.

Well…I don’t think the early roman republic existed! What now!?!

sorry, I couldn’t help myself

@eponymoushipster Actually, there is far less agreement than you might imagine. The 6 million number, for instance, is widely disputed. Futhermore “lots of people agree with me,” is not really any kind of valid intellectual position.

@TheIowaCynic The gas used at Auschwitz was carbon dioxide. There is no mystery.

“Carbon Monoxide

According to the memoirs of Rudolf H�ss, Commandant of Auschwitz, Adolf Eichmann suggested using “showers of carbon monoxide while bathing, as was done with mental patients in some places in the Reich.” Instead of leading to water, the showerheads were connected to canisters of carbon monoxide.

The birth of this method had varied sources, including one ironic twist. Artur Nebe, a Nazi-killing squad commander, had come home drunk from a party one night and passed out in his garage with his car still running. The carbon monoxide gas from the exhaust nearly killed him.
Einsatzgruppen killing

The first carbon monoxide experiments, done with cars

As Nebe related the incident to his SS comrades, this near-miss convinced him that gassing could be used effectively against the Jews and other Nazi enemies. Gas would be cheaper than bullets, and no Nazi would directly take a life.”

@Qingu What a silly question. Do I believe anything in history actually happened? I don’t know how to begin responding to that one

@TheIowaCynic so do you wear a blue hood or a regular old white one?

I STILL want to know if you disbelieve all genocides or not?

I’d stick with studying the Romans. Maybe they have some history you can deny.

I’m related to some who was a German officer in WW2 that was rather high up, his name was Reinhardt Heydrich(who I’m also named after, for better or worse) he was the head of German purification in much of eastern europe he headed up several Einsatzgruppen(special action groups) in whose aim was to eradicate, arrest, kill, anyone who they deemed a threat to the Reich or to German Purity. My family still owns many of his journals, the holocaust was in every way as horrid as people describe it, and he is the first to tell you. My family is evidence of that much, how you could refute it’s occurance or severity is beyond me.

@TheIowaCynic So did the Romans really sack Jerusalem and kill millions of people? or are the Jews lying about that one too?

@Marina That’s interesting, Marina, because the “official” story of Auscwitz has nothing to do with showers. Apparently, people were herded into chambers and zyclon B tablets were dropped in from holes in the roof. Unfortunately, several tests have been done showing no exposure to Zyclon B on those walls. There were “delousing chambers” at Auschwitz where prisoners clothes were deloused, using Zyclon B (think about that for a minute….why would they be delousing prisoners clothes?) that show HUGE amounts of a very steady chemical substance that forms where Zyclon B comes into contact with brick….it’s called “Prussian Blue” The delousing bells were covered with it…..there was none in the supposed gas chambers. That’s only the beginning

@TheIowaCynic, fair enough. I would like to know more about your approach to historical questions, though. It seems like your approach, like all conspiracy theorists, is to look at an event through the lens of its effects, and if those effects can be used politically, to just doubt the whole story altogether.

Do you believe Jesus really existed (not necessarily that he had magical powers, just existed in the first place)? Some people think Peter and Paul made him up out of whole cloth.

Who do you think assassinated Kennedy?

Really, any detail you can provide about your views on various historical events would be useful.

@TheIowaCynic you seem to be covering all the steps….

@adreamofautumn Do I disbelieve all genocides? Absolutely not. The Romans in Dacia or Gaul would be great examples of Genocide. What are you studying of Rome right now, out of curiosity?

@uberbatman i’m gonna beat him to step 4…@TheIowaCynic – are you a Nazi?

Lurve for batman.

I am studying nothing of Rome right now. I am studying the French and Haitian Revolution (at this exact moment) and I just got done taking Gender, War and Genocide. You still haven’t told me if you believe that Rwanda, Bosnia, Armenia, etc. are true?

@TheIowaCynic Well I know one firsthand witness (well knew, he’s since passed) but he walked into a camp firsthand and saw the gas chambers, the stacks of rotting dead, and the extremely emaciated largely jewish prisoners.

And there are thousands of pages, I just linked you, I’ve seen shows/read books/ and they were used during the nuremburg trial. You’re denying FACTs in order to support this drivel.

Quite frankly, you sir can go to hell.

@TheIowaCynic What you said about no Nazi official making a speech about the annihilation of the Jews is not true.

“January 30, 1939 – Hitler’s speech to the Reichstag threatened “the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe” in case of war. ”

“August 1941 – Otto Bradfisch, head of Einsatzkommando 8 operating in the Minsk region, asked Himmler who bears responsibility for the executions. Himmler answers “these orders come from Hitler as the supreme Fuhrer of the German government and the force of the law.”

“Summer 1941— Himmler disclosed to Rudolf Hess “that the Fuhrer ordered the Final Solution of the Jewish question and that now whatever Jews we can reach were to be eliminated without the problems of overcrowding.”

“January 20, 1942 – At the Wannsee Conference, Heydrich was the speaker at the conference and admitted that he had received the order for the Final Solution from Hitler. Heydrich presided over the conference with the aid of Eichmann’s help. The conference was attended by most high-ranking Nazi officials. It marked the official beginning of the genocide that became infamous as the Holocaust. The liquidation of those Jews who were unable to work was mentioned implicitly and later extermination of the remainder was mentioned explicitly. The implementation of liquidation camps began at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka.”

Source

@Qingu You’re all over the place here Qingu. I think the evidence for an historical figure of Jesus would be overwhelming, but I keep meaning to see the video claiming he never existed. Josephus mentions him as does Pliny, twice. By 75 AD, Christianity was a big deal and the Romans themselves might have said something like “sorry guys, we have records (they kept great records) and no Jesus of Nazareth was ever killed by our guy Pontios Pilate” So it seems highly unlikely he never existed. However, even were I to stipulate that every quote of his, in the New Testament was true, it doesn’t seem real clear he considered himself a God in the sense modern Christians understand it.

As to the rest of what you said, I don’t know…...I don’t know who killed Kennedy.

@eponymoushipster

A Nazi is a german national socialist. I am neither a German Nationalist (I’m an American) nor a socialist.

@TheIowaCynic do you consider yourself superior to people from any other race?

@Marina What you said is actually not true. Do you have a reference for those quotes? I’d love to go over them. You’re right about one thing at the Wansee conference. The only known written SUGGESTION of mass exterminating the Jews was put on a piece of paper by Heydrich, to which Himmler wrote under it “very un-German,” and to witch Hitler added beneath “RIGHT!!!!” “The final solution,” is the best phrase anybody has been able to fine that eludes to mass murder of the Jews, but it’s pretty weak. Lieberman in Israel talks about a “final solution,” for the Palestinian problem. Nobody is suggesting mass genocide.

@eponymoushipster You mean like, I think that because I’m white I must superior to a black or Jewish person? Absolutely not.

We should probably all stop commenting on this psychopaths comments…... Don’t give maniacs like this a forum.

@TheIowaCynic, try clicking the word “Source” at the bottom of @Marina‘s quip.

Interesting, I would have definitely pegged you for a Jesus-denier.

So let me get this straight. You think it’s “highly unlikely that Jesus never existed” ... based solely on testimony of a few Roman officials (one of whom, Tacitus, called the religion surrounding him a “mischevious superstition”), and on the fact that there are no records of his nonexistence (which likely wouldn’t be preserved anyway)...

BUT

You doubt the Holocaust—despite numerous eyewitness accounts of both victims and perpetrators, the physical camps, and the consensus of every single government involved in the war—because of a few things you believe constitute holes in the evidence?

I’m afraid I must take back what I said earlier about your approach to history being consistent.

@robmandu WIN.

@adreamofautumn still haven’t told you? You haven’t asked me. I think Rwanda and Kosovo were big, bloody wars where lots of people died. Genocide means killing EVERYBODY of a known race (hence…no more genes) and that hasn’t happened.

As to the Armenian Genocide, I don’t know. There clearly seemed to have been persecutions of Armenians by Attaturk, but I’ve been meaning to study it more.

Oi vey, that’s so not what genocide means. Unless you’re just being pedantic.

@TheIowaCynic Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

IN WHOLE OR IN PART

TheIowaCynic

@Qingu Well, to begin with, the camps themselves do not support the evidence of gas chambers and mass, systematic killing.

As to Jesus, I’m not sure where you’re going with that. Anything is possible, but I think it seems unlikely that Christianity could have picked up that much steam based upon a fraud. What seems most likely is that his followers exaggerated him, but I could be wrong. I think of everything in terms of “what seems most likely”

@TheIowaCynic I am not wasting any more time dealing with an idiot.

What you have done is produced no evidence of your own from credible sources, blown off the evidence I gave you from unbiased scholarly sources to show the errors in your thinking.

Like all conspiracy theorists, you selectively ignore evidence you don’t like while accepting as gospel improbable theories and falsehoods. You also rely on circular reasoning.

@uberbatman WIN

@Qingu The term Genocide has evolved, but at it’s route….....it means the elimination of a Gene or entire genetic set…...“Geno” “Cide” I’m sure it’s evolved to a more liberal use these days….....I’m not sure what this proves.

@Marina My reasoning is in no way circular. I’m rather familiar with the Wansee conference. What part would you like additional evidence of? The very valid point I’m making is that these terms have evolved. “Final solution,” written on a piece of paper is the best proof we have of a master “kill all the Jews” plan

@TheIowaCynic given that I asked you THREE TIMES and you said “you still haven’t asked me” I am going to assume you are not reading comments carefully. So I will note that your definition of genocide is outright wrong, but I don’t think i’ll bother dignifying you with posts you aren’t bothering to READ.

@TheIowaCynic, that’s my approach to history as well. (And I also think Jesus existed).

The problem is that you can say the exact same thing about the Holocaust. “It seems unlikely that the idea that the Germans deliberately exterminated millions of Jews would have picked up that much steam based on a fraud.”

And unlike with Jesus, who left behind absolutely no physical evidence or writings (the gospels were written decades later by undetermined followers), we have numerous eyewitnesses.

I honestly don’t understand how you can reconcile your argument against the Holocaust with your argument for Jesus’ existence. It’s intellectually dishonest.

@adreamofautumn You’ll excuse me autumn, I’m arguing with 6 different people at the same time. And you’re incorrect. The term “Genocide” means the killing of a gene, as “Patricide” would mean the killing of a father. So, at it’s route, Genocide means wiping out everybody with the same or similar Genes.

The word, however, has become so commonly used, it now has a far more accepted common-usage term.

@TheIowaCynic You want proof… Ok explain this for me. When my grandfathers squad walked into a concentration camp towards the end of the war… and he had dozens of emaciated jews run up to him begging for food… others laying on the ground in hovels that were infested with all kinds of parasites, TOO WEAK to stand and come beg for food….. the gas chambers he walked into, big enough to hold at least a hundred people….. or how about the hundreds of stacked rotting bodies?

How do you explain that? Are you going to argue that maybe this ONE camp was just run by some fool or asshole? Ok how about the fact that the same story can be found at HUNDREDS OF CAMPS ALL ACROSS NAZI OCCUPIED TERRITORY.

Genocide does not mean wiping out a “gene.”

I know its fun but….

@Qingu You’re not throwing around strange terms (intellectually dishonest?) What I think is that the physical evidence STRONGLY disagrees with the “eyewitness accounts”

I’ve never considered this before, but there may be a strong parallel with the Jesus phenomenon. You have elements of the Truth that have been wildly exaggerated. Perhaps rather similar

@TheIowaCynic Homosexual doesn’t mean “engaging in sexual acts with the person of the same sex.” either.

I didn’t ask for the damn etymology there are scholars who STUDY genocide that describe it as an intentional and systemic attempt to eradicate another race.
YOU study Rome..not Genocide. I think you should look into definitions and scholarly works before you correct them.

Does this University you’re studying in even have an accreditation?!

Everything in history gets exaggerated.

@westy81585 At the end of the war, the camps were in horrible condition and were often abandoned, due to lack of food for anybody (citizen, prisoner, soldier, etc) to let the prisoners die of starvation and disease…..as your uncle saw. Consider, over 90% of the “camps,” listed as the places where mass murder took place, were in Eastern Europe and were “liberated,” by the Soviets, not the Americans.

The piles of dead bodies would actually work against the holocaust story. Weren’t they supposed to have been incinerated?

@TheIowaCynic the term Genocide referes to “genus” not gene

genus
–noun, plural gen⋅e⋅ra  /ˈdʒɛnərə/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [jen-er-uh] Show IPA , ge⋅nus⋅es.
1. Biology. the usual major subdivision of a family or subfamily in the classification of organisms, usually consisting of more than one species.
2. Logic. a class or group of individuals, or of species of individuals.
3. a kind; sort; class.

not an entire gene pool… a specific group of people…
read a book maestro.

@TheIowaCynic You want more proof, you could look to the medical field. I’m about to enter med school, and I can tell you that the large majority of information we know about the human body comes from confiscated documents of tests done by NAZI doctors on prisoners at the concentration camps. Did you ever wonder how we KNOW how long the average person can hold their breath? Or little random stuff like how much blood is in the human body?

@TheIowaCynic, piles of dead bodies would be consistent if the incinerators could not have incinerated all the bodies, as you had earlier claimed.

Which is a recurring problem with conspiracy theorists. You freely make any argument that you think will poke holes, regardless of whether or not the arguments you make are consistent with each other.

@adreamofautumn We’re having a meaningless semantics argument about a word, what it’s original intent was or what it has come to mean. If it helps you, I’ll stipulate the “genocide,” means attacking and killing a particular group of people or however else you’d like to define it. This is really a tertiary issue.

@TheIowaCynic Now you’re not even reading. It was my grandfather, none of my uncles had even been born. Second, the surviving Jews TOLD THEM the NAZI’s had been exterminating them, just as the stories tell us. And do you think they had a gas chamber for kicks? They used it to kill people. And the stacked bodies didn’t have time to be incinerated…. The NAZI’s moved their prisoners further into Germany as the war was coming to a close, in order to get them to a place where they could be exterminated and burned prior to the allies finding them… BUT at a certain point they simply ran out of time.

You’re sick in the head, and you need to see a doctor.

@westy81585 You’re telling me that you’re entering med school and that a “MAJORITY” of what we know of the human body is due to Nazi experiments? I’m going to just assume you didn’t say that. Maybe you’ve had a few this evening.

I’m with asmonet: “I’m gonna back away from this question before I get suspended.” I have had too many friends with numbers tatooed on their arms to listen to this Aryan cornfield crap

I believe @TheIowaCynic‘s explanation for the gas chambers is, (simultaneously),
(1) They were for delousing
(2) They were constructed after the fact

@Dr_C You seem to have confirmed what I have been saying…..and the technical term of the word “genocide” means absolutely nothing

@Darwin Aryan, Cornfield crap? Why did all these friends that you refer to, get numbers on their arms, instead of being thrown directly into gas chambers, like we’re supposed to imagine happened?

@Qingu it doesn’t matter what he says – he’s not reading other people’s responses and he’s obviously not very intelligent. i say walk away.

I agree…it’s time to stop feeding the troll and walk away.

@TheIowaCynic, you do realize that “what we’re supposed to imagine happened” is that the Jews were enslaved for some time before they were exterminated, yis? And that Hitler’s generals were strongly against the Final Solution because it would be killing their labor force?

In other words, quit the straw men.

@TheIowaCynic: I suggest you think about not directly addressing those who have personal ties to the Holocaust. You’ll only end up looking like a bigger asshat.

@TheIowaCynic your ability to take comments out of context astounds me… you sir are an artist of evasion and wordplay… too bad you use your powers for trolling instead of something productive… you need a hug… maybe a hobby… as well as a dictionary.

@asmonet to appear to be a bigger asshat for this guy is not possible.

I really wish you guys would stop with the ad homs against our H.C.-denying friend. Again, it’s completely counterproductive, and only serves to help you vent your frustration while bolstering his image of victimization.

@Qingu Yes…..furthermore, based upon the accepted facts, eyewitness testimony has proven to be often false. It was eyewitness testimony that told us they saw Jews being made into soap and lampshades. One eyewitness account at Nueremberg said that Jews were put into a big hole and blown up with an atomic bomb.

As to the gas chambers….. The faculty at Auschwitz ADMITS that these supposed gas chambers were turned into Air Raid shelters, before being constructed “back to their original form as gas chambers” by the soviet and allied armies.

Therefore, holocaust promoters suggest that the dens at Auschwitz were Gas chambers that got turned into Air Raid shelters, that the Soviet Army turned back into Gas chambers for viewing purposes.

Revisionists like me suggest they were Air Raid shelters that got turned into things that looked like Gas-Chambers by the red Army for viewing purposes.

Who has the higher burden of proof?

@Qingu you arguing with a troll/prat is counterproductive. he’s not interested in anything other than arguing.

@Dr_C We’re in a completely irrelevant wormhole here. What the acceptable uses for the term “genocide” are, are not particularly germane to this argument. I’m not arguing what the word is commonly used for and don’t care. What I simply pointed out is that the term, in it’s pure use, stems for the latin conjunction “Geno” and “cide” meaning death of a gene.

@Qingu No straw man argument. I bet life in camps sucked and increased ones possibility of dying by a factor of 10, not to mention wasting years of your life working as slave labor. What doesn’t add up is the gas-chamber story.

@adreamofautumn Have you considered my offer yet? It seems pretty reasonable. I’ll agree to read something that supports your side of the story and you do the same for me. That seems civilized enough, no?

Oooooooh, a factor of ten, you say?
Impressive.~

I want to know why “a factor of 10”? Was that just an arbitrary number you just made up?

I would be interested in that arrangement, but right now i’m buried in homework/finals that I should be doing instead of watching this stupid thread. AND I don’t have the time to dig up some reading for you, so that will have to be on hold. Sorry.

Also quite honestly…I think this whole thread has worn me out. I feel like it’s just trolling that we were all dumb enough to feed and i’m not sure i’d like to continue that into my life outside of the thread at this moment in time. Maybe when i’m not so bogged down. Maybe not. Who knows.

@asmonet let’s make up some numbers and pretend we know what we’re talking about…

i bet in Iowa, people rape sheep about 15000x more than people in states with viable school systems.

Well, that’s reason number two not to visit.

@westy81585 Unfortunately, and I would encourage you to look into this, the actual evidence for their being gas chambers is very very poor. I’m sure your uncle walked into something that he thought was a Gas Chamber, but there’s 0 physical evidence of their having existed

So there is zero evidence, or the evidence is poor? Make up your mind.

@adreamofautumn yes, “factor of 10,” was just a rough estimate. I’m sure people were far more likely to die in forced work camps with a high risk of disease being spread, than they would have been in their homes and places of work….....

“He thought it was a gas chamber”, but really, it was just a room full of dead bodies.

yeah that’s reasonable.

@TheIowaCynic, I have to go to bed now. I’ll just point out that after 120 posts, I haven’t seen you advance any positive claim about what actually did happen—who made up what, how they got away with it, etc. Which was, incidentally, the point of the thread.

To be fair, the “Red Army created the gas chambers from air raid shelters” is a positive claim. Do you actually believe it? I can’t really picture the Red Army taking the time, energy, manpower, and tools to manufacture and install fake gas chambers in place of air raid shelters, even if there were significant propoganda incentives (which there weren’t for the Soviets, as it turned out). That’s an absurd explanation. And besides, it conflicts with your earlier suggestion that there were gas chambers but they were only used for delousing.

I really hope you’ll consider Jesus (odd as this sounds coming from an atheist). Some atheists don’t believe Jesus existed at all, because of all the holes in the “official” story of his life. But I believe in Occam’s Razor—his existence, later mutated into legend by his cult, is a much simpler explanation than a Pauline/Peter conspiracy that made him up wholecloth for propoganda purpose. This is why I don’t believe in conspiracy theories—they tend to violate Occam’s razor.

@asmonet The evidence for gas chambers is entirely circumstantial. The physical evidence simply isn’t there…...... does that clarify what I’m trying to say?

@eponymoushipster A pile of dead and emaciated bodies does not = evidence for a gas chamber.

@TheIowaCynic a bunch of unsupported claims does not = a valid argument that is outweighed by overwhelming evidence.

How about you visit, and we fire up those bad boys and see what happens?

If it’s really all for delousing, I’m sure you’ll be game.

@Qingu OK…...if you were to go to Auschwitz and talk to the staff (as David Cole did) they would ADMIT that these supposed Gas Chambers were turned into Air Raid shelters by the Germans before the camp was liberated by the Soviets. This is not controversial. The Soviets suggested that they turned the Air Raid shelters back into the gas chambers that they used to be.

I say that they never were gas chambers and the evidence that they were is non-existent.

@eponymoushipster anyone can claim a false stat to prove any point… 87% of the population knows that!

@asmonet Why would I want to kill myself? The delousing took place in these bell shaped towers that they’d throw the clothes in.

@eponymoushipster But this is my point. The evidence is NOT overwhelming. It’s not at all.

@eponymoushipster Where do you live? Iowa has been among the top 5 states in the Nation for high school graduation (85%-90%) and literacy (96%) for the last 50 years.

@TheIowaCynic BOTH the students? Do they color in the lines too, or is that College Placement?

I’m really really excited about @ABoyNamedBoobs03.

Because you’ve got what, three students and a cow all sharing the same last name in that graduating class?

@asmonet WIN. that cow is one tough gal; she’s the valedictorian.

@asmonet That would provide for a remarkable literacy rate among cows.

still waiting for the man of the hour (aka boynamedboobs) to put troll boy in his place

Oh come one people. I’ve been lurking and proud of ya’ll, but this Iowa bashing isn’t going to make this asshat go away or use that brain of his to figure anything out.

What’s funny – even the cow believes that the Holocaust happened.

@Likeradar: We know, but it’s just sily at this point to take any of this seriously.

@eponymoushipster SCORE

@eponymoushipster: ZING!

@TheIowaCynic

with debates following a nature such as this I usually prefer to say my piece and then step back as a spectator unless I’m asked to interject. I find it allows me to better digest both sides of the arguement without emotion or much bias getting in the way. And through out this conversation there is one thing that I’ve noticed in particular.

you’re arguements and counter arguements have gone from a more aggressive, unwaivering, and confident writing style and tone, to a increasingly defensive, negotiating, and compromising tone. To me this suggests that you’re beggining to doubt your previous convictions. That usually follows, as any intelligent person would realize, because the ideas they beleived to be facts have been challenged with equally, if not more, credible facts in larger volume.

just my two cents.

you’ve consistantly changed your stances throughout the entire conversation, people don’t do that unless they;re unsure of their convictions.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 yahooooo! Will you marry me by any chance?

And THAT ladies and gentlemen is how the cookie crumbled

Snap.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 awesome, dude, awesome.

@Likeradar Good job at playing to the crowd radar…....but consider looking into it. Try doing some reading by people that propose opposing viewpoints. Believe me, this is not an easy position to have as the folks on here have demonstrated. Questioning the gas chamber story or 6 million number is not a sure path to popularity and friends. It’s a very controversial opinion I hold, but I believe that History should be comprised of truth as best as we can understand it and the jumble of highly emotional stories we have come to accept as fact about the Holocaust, are simply ridiculous.

Take my challenge. Look into it. Try watching a few of the videos I’ve suggested. What do you have to lose?

@Likeradar beside your dignity, self respect and grip on reality

@TheIowaCynic probably his soul and any logical reasoning ability.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 You’re 100% wrong. I have not backed down from a single claim. Let me give you a MORE accurate assessment of argument style and what it might suggest.

When people don’t know how to respond, they will psychoanalyze the person as opposed to presenting facts.

I have not backed down from a single, solitary position. What I have done is refused to engage in silly personal attacks.

Please, give me a single example of something I’ve backed down on.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03

Really…....a single example me changing my stances will do.

@eponymoushipster her. :)

@Dr C- I wish I could lurve you all night for that.

@Likeradar you can lurve me anytime babe

@TheIowaCynic you know you’re cocky to a point of arrogance. Saying things like “you’re 100% wrong” and “let me give you a MORE accurate assessment” is unnecessary. Being so arrogant is not going to help you ever get your opinion across to anyone. I’m sorry.

@Likeradar sorry. typo.

@adreamofautumn His suggesting that I had begun backing down was 100% wrong and I said so. In fact, I have been progressively presenting more and more facts throughout the course of this thread.

@TheIowaCynic please use quotes appropriately. as in: “facts”

[Mod says] Flame off, people. Personal attacks have been removed, and will continue to be. If you can’t keep it civil, please don’t respond.

@TheIowaCynic Well, I already stated my views on this topic in a post above, if you’re curious as to my stance feel free to scroll up to about half way.

And I’m curious as to where you hear that notion, in reference to “When people don’t know how to respond, they will psychoanalyze the person as opposed to presenting facts.”

I don’t have my doctorate yet but I’ve never heard that before.

To be honest I’ve very little interest in trying to convince you that your notions are incorrect on this matter because you’re the kind of person that, since you’ve invested so much time into the subject throughout your life, will most likely never be convinced otherwise, so I do apologize for not digging through this whole thread in an attempt to quote you, in this case the work in no way equals the reward. I’ve stated my opinions and now I am tired.

@augustlan In this case, I don’t mind them at all. They help to prove my point

@TheIowaCynic what is your point?

@eponymoushipster he has a point?

@TheIowaCynic, I know I said I’d go to bed, but:

“OK…...if you were to go to Auschwitz and talk to the staff (as David Cole did) they would ADMIT that these supposed Gas Chambers were turned into Air Raid shelters by the Germans before the camp was liberated by the Soviets. This is not controversial. The Soviets suggested that they turned the Air Raid shelters back into the gas chambers that they used to be.I say that they never were gas chambers and the evidence that they were is non-existent.”

This is important because it’s the first, and as far as I can tell only, positive claim you’ve made this whole thread.

I want you to flesh it out. Are you saying that the Soviets spent time, money, materials, and manpower to transform air raid shelters into gas chambers at Auschwitz?

EVERYONE ELSE: stop being assholes. The reason TheIowaCynic denies the Holocaust is not because he hasn’t heard enough people on the Internet call him a cowfucker. I can’t tell you how annoying it is to come back and find 40 posts of name-calling nonsense. None of you have succeeded in getting him to defend or challenge his views, and he comes off looking like the mature one. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 Just think about it. It’s far easier to say “well of course THAT kind of person would say something like that,” as opposed to considering what’s being said and presenting a legit counter opinion.

It’s been done repeatedly to discredit folks since the beginning of recorded history.

I just now saw your earlier threat, and no offense, but I’m calling bullshit. Were that the case, your family could become instantly rich by simply PRESENTING these journals for public viewing.

The first-hand testimony of German officers describing the holocaust is non-existent.

Futhermore, eastern Europe was mainly non-German, so what an officer in charge of “German Purity,” could have been doing among all of those people of Baltic and Slavic descent is beyond me.

Really, I and the rest of the world would LOVE to see copies of these journals along with authentication records…..if what you say is true, you are sitting upon a gold mine of personal worth for yourself and information for the rest of the world

i’m like a bear, and he’s like a little bunny rabbit.

why even take him seriously?

@eponymoushipster i don’t know about you but i take my lunch VERY seriously

@Qingu: Kinda not the point, ridiculous views tend to lead to ridiculous comments. But whatever. I’m over this. :)

@Qingu This is EXACTLY what I’m saying and if you’ll watch the video series I have mentioned, you will actually see the top official, currently at Auschwitz admit thisEXACT THING. In those videos, you will see the head of Auschwitz, as well as their top historian tell you that very exact thing.

Exactly!~

i’m pretty sure TheIowaCynic is the ShamWow! guy….

@TheIowaCynic, thank you for the answer. Let’s try to stay on topic.

First of all, if I understand your previous comment, the Auschwitz official did not “admit” the Soviets constructed gas chambers out of whole cloth. He said that the Germans were using the gas chambers as air raid shelters (which is perfectly reasonable as I imagine gas chambers were rather well sealed) and the Soviets simply converted them back to gas chambers.

• Gas chambers —> Air raid shelters —> Soviets convert back to gas chambers.

This is completely different from what you are suggesting happened. What you are suggesting is:

• Air raid shelters —> Soviets construct brand new gas chambers.

Now, I want you to explain how the Soviets did this. Did they bring the metals necessary for their construction with them? (Gas chambers are relatively complicated, as opposed to air raid shelters) How much time and manpower would this have taken, and where would the commands have come from? And why would the Soviets have spent all this time and energy doing this?

And again, please don’t link me to videos. Give me your own argument.

@Qingu In the time you have spent arguing with me, you could have seen the video and had it explained.

“Now, I want you to explain how the Soviets did this. Did they bring the metals necessary for their construction with them? (Gas chambers are relatively complicated, as opposed to air raid shelters) How much time and manpower would this have taken, and where would the commands have come from? And why would the Soviets have spent all this time and energy doing this?”

I want to put your last question to the side for a moment. The rest of what you said is EXACTLY MY POINT. They look NOTHING like gas chambers. The holes where toilets used to be in the floor are still there. There’s a door with a glass panel in it (original) that opens in both directions. That is EXACTLY the point. What is shown to tourists as having been a gas chamber is absolutely ridiculous! It wasn’t a gas chamber. The holes in the roof, where they zyclon B was supposedly dropped in, were put in their after the war…ADMITTEDLY.

You have touched on exactly what the problems of this holocaust myth are. I understand where you are right now…....I understand how it must seem impossible.

As to why…......the reason is anti-facist propaganda that took place during the war. The Soviets, just like the Americans….......just like any other people who go to war, want to make their vanquished adversaries seem like the worst thing in the history of the world…....and so these crazy stories continue to get spread…...please…..please…....watch the video.

What does a gas chamber “look like”?

You did not answer my question. Even if the gas chambers are makeshift, it would have taken a significant amount of time, materials, and work to construct them.

I want you to explain the thought process of an army official in Moscow giving this order to Soviets in the field. “If you find any Nazi labor camps, your orders are to spend X amount of time, energy, and materials to turn some of their air raid shelters into gas chambers.” (By the way—since you’ve repeatedly asked for letters/documentation of Nazis ordering the Final Solution, I assume you have some sort of letters/documentation for this order from the Soviet Command?)

And I’ve explained why I won’t watch your boring videos. Would you watch videos I linked you to? Your repeated pleading for me to “just watch the video” is kind of pathetic. You remind me of a young Mormon missionary imploring me to “just read the book, the answers are all in there, trust me.” I can’t argue with videos, so you’d better learn to incorporate whatever arguments your videos make into your posts.

@TheIowaCynic having read this thread i shudder to think what your opinions might be on race relations….

@Qingu When there is a 30 minute video showing EXACTLY what I’m talking about, and you’re refusing to watch it, I don’t know what to tell you. what are presented to the people on the Auschwitz tours as Gas Chambers are not and could not have ever been gas chambers…....yet that is the story.

Why you are unwilling to watch this visual answer to your questions is just beyond me. You could have had all of these questions visually answered in the time you have spent talking to me

@Qingu Right, because anybody who questions the 6 million number or the physical evidence of the gas chambers, clearly wants to kill people of other races…..a very logical if-therefore-than conclusion.

I tried watching the video you linked me to. It was boring and illogical and, unlike you, could not clarify or defend the positions it advanced. And do you really think there are no 30 minute videos proving the Holocaust? Please. Get off the videos and defend your own points.

Also, your last response should not have been directed at me. I don’t condone the ad homs being hurled at you.

@Qingu Watch the video series. You’re asking for visual descriptions that are there…...ON CAMERA. You either aren’t curious to know the answers or don’t want to know them.

@Qingu Also…you TRIED watching the series? The answers…....visual answers to exactly what you are asking are right there….....there they are…......watch.

@Qingu I AM defending my point and have repeatedly defended it. What more do you want? You’re asking for visuals of the gas chamber, I’m telling you how you can see video footage of them…..and you’re refusing.

I can’t believe i’m bothering to get into this again…I swore I was done with this crap, but in response to your response to @aboy, there is tons of information about German troops in Eastern Europe (and France, and Poland, etc) during this time. I guess that falls in with your “that doesn’t count” mix of information.

My girlfriend and family members have visited the gas chambers, as have a huge number of historians.

But okay. I’ll bite. Link me to the video (preferably with a minute and second reading so I can skip the boring and illogical parts) that “proves” the gas chambers aren’t really gas chambers (edit: and that, therefore, they were constructed wholesale by the Soviets afterwards)

@Qingu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXKHw0EZrqM

It is an EXTREMELY logical, 7 part series; each series being 5–7 minutes a piece.

I didn’t ask for a series, I asked for a specific point in a specific video. Can you support this claim or not?

@adreamofautumn I didn’t say there wasn’t evidence of German troops in Eastern Europe. Of course there was. Over 10 million of said troops died in Eastern Europe. What I’m telling you is that it wouldn’t make sense to have “racial purification officer,” operating in Eastern Europe. What ABoyNamedBoobs has done is something similar to the false confessions at Stalin’s Witch trials. He’s told an outrageous lie that he knows people won’t question. It’s the same nonsense that got everybody thinking jews were turned into soap and lampshades.
.....but this “my uncle was a racial purification expert” in eastern Europe is B.S. Really….you’d think there’s be lots of journals and first hand accounts of German Officers describing the holocaust, right? Wrong. There aren’t, which is why what ABNB claims to have in his family would make his family instantly rich.

Some people don’t sell out there families for millions…i’m not arguing with you about the validity of @ABoyNamedBoobs03 ‘s statements, i’m sure he can defend himself just fine as he has proven, but I just thought i’d share that bit of family loving insight.

@Qingu PLEASSE!! that high handed “can you support this claim or not” is a bunch of bullshit. You are wearing my patience thin. You’re so curious but can’t bother watching an explanation? Really…....this is insane…...Try starting with 2 of 7. Between parts 2 and 4, you’ll get the full gas chamber tour and the interview with the camp staff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-YsBXEueoU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP8eB4oPS0o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQkD7AqLl5c&feature=related

@TheIowaCynic

well, I’m a neurology major at Boston College, and so far as I’ve seen that’s never been stated before, at least not in any of the text books I’ve read. So you’ll have to excuse me for not taking your personal deductions has a credible source.

To be rather frank, I am offended, but your doubts are understandable and at this point to be expected, but you can not begin to understand the burden merely being related to this man has put on my family. It is something we’ve put to bed, for we are ashamed of it and it brought my family more pain and disgrace than you will ever imagine. His journal now resides in a lock box at Berlin-Hannoversche Hypothekenbank, under the possession of my Aunt Kristina Steck. She is his closest living relative and thusly it’s up to her what she does with it. As said before my family has struggled with our history very much, but she more than any other. Amoungst other incidents she was attacked and raped by two men whom were related to a jewish woman in one of the camps just because they found out her heritage despite having changed her name in it’s entirety. So please, next time you ‘call bullshit’, ask for one’s reasoning. I’ve tried to be as civil as possible but this will be my last post about this issue, you’ve lost my respect.

@adreamofautumn Than perhaps he would allow the rest of the world to see these “journals” They could show them to us for free.

Just to be as clear as possible, you have claimed:

There were no gas chambers in Auschwitz. Instead, the Soviets installed new gas chambers over air raid shelters when the conquered Auschwitz.

You have yet to explain:

• How the Soviets accomplished this logistically (did they bring the materials with them?)
• Where the Soveit’s orders to do this came from (same burden of proof as you’re demanding with Hitler’s orders for the Final Solution)
• Why the Soviets would have ordered their soldiers to spend time, money, and manpower constructing fake gas chambers over German air raid shelters.

I eagerly await the specific video that proves all of these things. Bonus points if it proves them by the same standards you’re asking us to prove the Holocaust (i.e. unconflicted physical evidence, letters/documentation of the chain of command giving the order, etc)

It takes three videos to prove your claim? Really? I don’t believe you, not after the ridiculous video you posted before that supposedly “proved” your claims.

Feel free to give a play-by-play or recount the evidence presented in the videos.

Jesus Christ. This is the same series you posted before. You remember, the one I had to stop watching because I would have had to spend so much time documenting the logical errors on here for you to defend.

@Qingu

Answer to how the Soviets did this logistically. THEY DIDN“T. They picked out a building and said “that was a gas chamber” and now it gets shown to people and they’re told it was a gas chamber. It’s ridiculous and CLEARLY not a gas chamber.

Where the Soviets got these orders from or why they did it is total speculation.

I don’t know this and don’t HAVE to know this to know that the Gas Chamber that is shown to people who visit Auschwitz is clearly not a gas chamber and never could have been. 2 separate tests, looking for Zyclon B residue have confirmed this.

I bothered to google the guy. He was working Bohemia and Moravia which came under Reich power in 1939. Last time I checked the Czech Republic was in Eastern Europe.

@adreamofautumn ABNB is lying and there is no such journal. Really. Imagine this was a trial “Oh yes…...there is a journal in my family proving all of this but it’s hidden in a secret place. You’ll just have to take my word”

@Qingu Please show me a single, solitary logical error. I’ll settle for just one

The lack of Zyclon B = not a gas chamber?

You really don’t think there could be any other explanations?

Also, how in the hell do you know what a “real” gas chamber looks like? Because this charming, whiny videographer says it doesn’t look like a real gas chamber?

@TheIowaCynic imagine if your argument was on trial “yes, I understand that my point is basically ridiculous and there is much proof that I am choosing to disregard, but you’ll just have to take my word that the holocaust was bullshit”. You can call him a liar if you want, but you’re telling us that the holocaust was BS…which in my opinion makes you a liar.

Damn you guys are still feeding this troll…..

@adreamofautumn You’re setting up a total straw man argument. I certainly don’t understand or imagine my point to be ridiculous. I cite facts and logical errors. I’m not asking anybody to believe something just because I say so.

And I am most certainly NOT a liar. I very firmly believe what I say. I point to facts and obvious issues and problems in the story and how it has evolved. I don’t claim to have the journal of an old dead uncle that would be invaluable to history, but it’s a big secret.

I have homework to do. I really do need to be done. I’m sorry. Call who you want a liar, i’ll call you a liar and we’ll live happily ever after. Goodnight.

how the hell did a bomb shelter have a smoke tower?

About Zyclon B, this literally took me 3 minutes of research to find:

“In a widespread campaign to deny the existence of extermination camps with gas chambers the “revisionists” have recently started using the results of the examinations of fragments of ruins of former crematoria. These results (Leuchter, Rudolf) allegedly prove that the materials under examination had not been in contact with cyanide, unlike the wall fragments of delousing buildings in which the revisionists discovered considerable amount of cyanide compounds. Systematic research, involving most sensitive analytical methods, undertaken by the Institute confirmed the presence of cyanide compounds in all kinds of gas chamber ruins, even in the basement of Block 11 in Auschwitz, where first, experimental gassing of victims by means of Zyklon B had been carried out. The analysis of control samples, taken from other places (especially from living quarters) yielded unequivocally negative results. For the sake of interpretation several laboratory experiments have been carried out.”

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/iffr/report.shtml

Granted, I am a non-expert. So explain to me why I should believe you over this source. Are they part of the conspiracy?

@Qingu

In the delousing chambers, there is huge amounts of a stable substance on the walls called “prussian blue” that forms when brick and Zyclon B touch one another.

As to what a gas chamber looks like….....I can only direct you to this video that you refuse to watch. He’ll actually walk you through it and show you the video of it.

@TheIowaCynic you sir.. have just been served

sigh I also think that you do believe what you say which is really unfortunate. I doubt you’ve done any original research on the subject which also tells me that someone that was even better at playing with words than you are wrote some really convincing work that you’ve fallen into believing.

@Qingu I need to go to bed and will finish this tomorrow. Your unwillingness to view the physical evidence I can only so poorly explain to you in writing has put me at a loss. Watch the damn video. I mean really, I can’t explain what something looks like to you as well as a person with a Camera can.

@Dr_C I’ve just been served, huh? Well thank you for that wonderful addition to this thread.

@TheIowaCynic always a pleasure :)

Youtube videos are not physical evidence. I’m not taking time out of my busy time fluthering and slacking off work to watch your damn videos. As I said, you should feel free to write up a play-by-play of the videos and summarize any important points you feel they make. If it’s compelling, I’ll check it out and fast forward to the part that strikes me.

Batman is right…why do we keep falling into this trap of feeding this?! It’s like a bad habit, it’s doing nothing for you but you can’t seem to stop!

also @Qingu is right…citing some guy on YouTube is the equivalent of citing “wikipedia” as an accountable source in a college paper. It’s just ridiculous.

And I eagerly await your explanation for why I should believe your theories about Zyclon B over the Institute of Forensic Research’s paper.

EPIC FAIL.

@adreamofautumn The reason I continue to direct him to YouTube is that he continues to ask for what this gas chamber looks like…..and I happen to know of a video that will show him, which is far better than how I could describe it.

Wow.

No, you misunderstood. I am quite capable of figuring out what the gas chamber at Auschwitz looks like and have seen many pictures of gas chambers myself.

What I’m asking for is proof that the structures that look like gas chambers to me and everyone else were actually constructed post-war by Soviets and could not actually function as “real” gas chambers.

@Qingu Read the Leuchter reports or those made by Rudolf. Don’t believe me, as opposed to them, believe those two scientists who did the reports…....it’s not a matter of one person being in a conspiracy and the other not. One group of people is right, and one is wrong.

http://www.germarrudolf.com/

Aren’t tits awesome?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

BEWBS?!?!?!?!

@TheIowaCynic, how does the webpage you just cited refute the Institute’s study on Zyclon B at Auschwitz? I did a quick “find” for Zyklon (and varients) and nothing showed up. It seems to be a complete non-sequitor.

@Qingu If I was to tell that there is an interview, with the chief historian of Auschwitz. where he states EXACTLY WHAT I AM TELLING YOU, is this not enough?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQkD7AqLl5c&feature=related

The first two minutes of this video will describe the changes made to the gas chambers by the head of Auschwitz.

Watching the video.

The video claims that, after the war, some holes and a door were put into the gas chamber.

How in the name of living hell is this proof that the Soviets constructed a gas chamber out of whole cloth?

Just to be clear: your amazing video proof was white text on a green background being narrated by a Holocaust revisionist. I cannot believe you actually expect me to be impressed by this.

Now talk to me about Zyklon B.

Also, you need to stop being outright dishonest. The chief historian of Auschwitz did NOT state “exactly” what you are telling me. Not according to your video.

All he said (actually, all the Holocaust revisionist narrator said he said) was that they put some holes and a door in the gas chamber after the war. Claiming this is “exactly the same” as your assertion that Soviets built the gas chamber is beyond nonsense, it is simply lying.

I don’t call people dishonest lightly.

AGAIN… served

EPIC FAIL DOS!

Last post before bed. You said, earlier:

“OK…..I gave you two examples. There’s also no piece of paper or speech given by any member of the third reich, discussing this remarkably huge plan to eliminate 6 million Jews.”

Actually, Hitler repeatedly talked about eradicating the Jews in Mein Kampf and elsewhere, but that’s neither here nor there…

I reposted this because this is your standard of proof for the existence of the Nazi’s plan.

You have proposed that the Soviets had a plan to construct fake gas chambers at Nazi concentration camp. By your own standard of proof, where are the pieces of paper or speeches documenting this plan?

@Qingu

Firstly…...there is nothing in Mien Kampf talking about exterminating the Jews. There is talk of solving the “Jewish Problem,” in much the same way that many folks in Israel talk about solving the “Palestinian problem.” The idea that Hitler was anti-semitic is beyond question but this is a VERY long way from the suggestion of a plan to kill all the Jews of Europe or Germany.

Let me be clear about what I am suggesting in regards to the gas chambers at Auschwitz, Quingu. What I am going to tell you, is not controversial. People who study the Holocaust and promote it…......and people like myself, who are revisionists…..ALL AGREE that the gas chambers on tour at Auschwitz are reconstructions. What you are requesting an impossibly high level of proof for, is not controversial. The aren’t scholars out there suggesting that the gas chambers at Auschwitz, shown to tourists, are in their original form. Nobody is saying this. Nobody.

Let me pause here Quinu. This is very frustrating. we’re now bogged down on a very secondary issue, with you demanding an impossibly high level of proof, regarding something that is NOT DEBATED, and this is interesting in and of itself. Many of the undisputed facts of the holocaust, are actually shocking to most of the general public.

SO let’s review, in regards to the gas chamber. Here is a quote from Dr. Franciszek Piper, in his interview…....the head of the Auschwitz museum. You can reference this here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP8eB4oPS0o&feature=related , starting at 6:15.

“In 1944, in collection with bombardments of allies air forces, crematorium #1 and gas chamber #1 were adopted as air shelter…....additional entrance was made from east side of the gas chamber and ahh, openings in the ceiling where zyclon B was discharged were closed. So after the liberation of the camp, the former gas chamber presented a view of air shelter. In order to gain ariel view of the earlier site of this object, the inside walls, built in 1944 were removed, and the openings in the ceiling were made anew. So now, this gas chamber is very similar to this one that existed in 1941/1942, but not all details were, ahhh, made there, so there is no, for instance, additional entrance from the east side. Such changes were made here after the war”

This is a quote from a holocaust PROPONENT. A person who is on YOUR SIDE on this one.

So let’s review the facts again

1.) What is now beyond dispute is that the people who go on the Auschwitz tour and are told that the chambers are in their original form are being deliberately and knowingly lied to.

2) this holocaust supporter and scholar admits that when the camp was liberated by the Soviets, the place that is now displayed as a gas chamber was, at the time, an air raid shelter. They claim that the soviet’s made the necessary adjustments to return it to it’s “original form,” as a gas chamber, which it served as in 1941/1942

3) Holocaust revisionists, like myself, suggest that it never WAS a gas chamber. It was an air raid shelter all along and the soviets made some slight changes to it and told everybody it was a gas chamber.

Are we clear on this now? What would you like to talk about, in regards to Zyclon B?

@Qingu Secondly. I have said absolutely nothing that is dishonest. You have just accused me of suggesting that the Soviets built that gas chamber from scratch. I NEVER SAID anything of the sort and THAT is either lazy of you (you just assumed I did and didn’t check) or dishonest.

What I am suggesting is the same thing that holocaust experts and promoters and the scholars and historians at Auschwitz will tell you. When the Soviet Army came to Auschwitz, they took something that had been used as an air raid shelter from 1943/1944 by the Nazi’s, they made “Adjustments,” to it and made it look like a gas chamber. The Holocaust scholars will tell you that they were returning it to it’s “original form” I’m suggesting that they were not….....

Are we clear on what I’m suggesting now?

You are nitpicking about this “original form” business.

Mainstream claim: Germans constructed gas chambers. During final stages of the war, the Germans used the gas chambers as air raid shelters. They were restored to their original conditions after the war.

Your counterclaim: the fact that some holes and doors were added means that they are not in their original condition.

Very well. They’re not in their original condition, strictly speaking. The historian admits they’ve been slightly altered. I wouldn’t call this a “lie,” art and historical artifacts are routinely altered for preservation and access’ sake and still coloquially said to be in their “original form,” but that’s neither here nor there.

I utterly fail to see how you go from here to “therefore, there were never any gas chambers, and the Soviets constructed them wholecloth.” Can you please explain your thought process? And do you have a single shred of evidence to support this claim? (You do understand that “they were altered” is not evidence for the claim that “they were constructed after the war,” right?)

Also, any thoughts on the Zyclon-B refutation paper?

Also, you were being dishonest. You claimed the historian in the videos said the “exact same thing” you’re claiming.

You are claiming the Soviets made an air raid shelter look like a gas chamber. The historian said no such thing.

@Qingu I have NEVER SAID THE SOVIETS CONSTRUCTED THEM WHOLECLOTH!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have called me dishonest, and yet repeatedly make this claim that I have never made. What I have suggested is that the Soviets altered an Air Raid shelter to make it look like a Gas Chamber. Do you understand this Qingu? If I say this 100 more times, will you understand it then?

You just gave a false quote and no longer have any business referring to me or anybody else as dishonest. You just gave the quote

“therefore, there were never any gas chambers, and the Soviets constructed them wholecloth.”

Who said that Qingu? Who are you quoting there, mr. intellectual honesty? Who’s quote is that? I certainly never said that

@Qingu

What is beyond dispute, is that something that was used as an Air Raid shelter when the camp was liberated, was altered by the Soviets to look like a Gas Chamber.

Period…......that is the undisputed fact I refer to.

The holocaust supporters tell us they were returning it to it’s original form.

I say they were not and that it never was a gas chamber.

@TheIowaCynic, I fail to see the difference. In order to alter an air raid shelter to look like a gas chamber, you would need to construct a gas chamber.

Unless the air raid shelter already looked like a gas chamber. Which is what the historian you cited said.

Are you disputing that the air raid shelter originally looked like a gas chamber?

Also, how on earth do you explain the presence of poisonous gas in the gas chamber that you are alleging was never a gas chamber?

@Qingu As to the Zyclon B refutation paper, have YOU read it? The conversation you seem to want to have with me, is that I will quote Leuchter and Rudolf and you’re just going to say “well those folks over here disagree, prove them wrong”

This is not a possible conversation to have. The COUNTER REPORT you refer to actually does not refute the claims of Leuchter and Rudolf and I would love to go into all 3 reports with you, in greater detail…......but you have to read them first.

I won’t have a conversation with somebody where I’m going to be citing and referencing these specific reports, and the person on the other end is going to be saying “well these people over here disagree. Prove them wrong”

That’s not a coversation. I would LOVE to have the Zyclon B conversation with you, but can you agree that it will be about the actual details of these reports, and not me or you having to prove that some of the analysts of these reports are wrong?

This isn’t any different from me saying “prove to me Rudolf is wrong. You can’t, can you? So you’re dishonest”

I’m happy to have a detailed conversation about Zyclon B. Why don’t you tell me what exactly you dispute in the paper I cited—since that paper is a direct response to your claims.

@Qingu YES! There’s a door there, that opens both ways! With a glass pain in it! Fred Leuchter, before travelling to Auschwitz, actually used to work on and construct gas chambers here in the U.S…...he was the nations leading expert on execution equipment and had contracts with over 2 dozen states to build and service their equipment. When he saw the supposed gas chamber he said unequivically that it NEVER COULD have been a gas chamber. He said that if that room had been used as a gas chamber, it would have killed everybody with 200 feet of it.

Because of the door?

But you just cited a historian who said they added the door after the war.

@Qingu Here is what I am going to do Qingu. I am going to cite the statistics in those reports…....and than you’re going to come back at me with counter-statistics…....not “This person disagrees. prove that they’re wrong.”

Is that agreeable?

Sure, cite away.

@Qingu No. I said they added the east entrance after the war. There is NOTHING about that room that would lend itself to being a gas chamber. It doesn’t have air tight seals on the door. Ariel photos DURING the war, do NOT show holes in the roof, where zyclon B was apparently dropped in on the people. It is simply a room that we know was used as an air raid shelter. The burden of proof is on the holocaust supporters and they have failed to meet it.

First of all, I’ll note again that you are demanding an extremely high burden of proof for a relatively mundane claim—and that you refuse to even attempt to provide a similar amount of proof for your claim.

Secondly, how on earth do you know the door wasn’t tightly sealed during operation? You actually think the fact that the door is not tightly sealed now means it wasn’t when they would have been gassing people?

Thirdly, you can see small holes in the ceiling from ariel photos? Really?

@Qingu

Also, you haven’t answered my question, mr “intellectual honesty” Where did you get that quote from?

@Qingu Yes. The current holes in the roof are very visable from satellite photos. Let’s stop here and go over what we know…...and is not controversial…..and we’ll move to the zyclon B. OK?

We know that it was an Air Raid shelter when it was liberated, and that adjustments were made to make it look like a Gas Chamber….....whether it was returning it to it’s original form….or whether it was making it look like something it wasn’t.

So at this point, we’re all in agreement. I would point out that the holocaust promoters have a higher burden of proof…...as they are suggesting that it was “returned to it’s original form” with the adjustments made by the Soviets….......but lets put that aside for a moment…......

At this point…....after an insane amount of resistance from you…..we’re at an agreement point and can move forward from here, right?

@Qingu I want to give you a heads up, Qingu. Here is the Leuchter report. It was published by a revisionsist website, but this is the report, in its entirety

http://www.revisionists.com/leuchter/report1/lr1toc.html

Here is the Germar Rudolf report

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/#download

I’m going to start with that and also tell you that the Krakow institute of forensic research http://www.ies.krakow.pl/history.htm did a report in 1994 attempting to dispute Leuchter, came to the same conclusions he did, and burried the report. I am currently looking for it.

The basics of Rudolf and Leuchters chemical analysis were the same and they are as follow:

1 when Zyclon B, cyanide gas interacts with brick, it forms a very stable substance called Prussian Blue that is generally visible on the walls

2. In the delousing chambers, where clothes were deloused, the registered amounts of prussian blue on the walls are, literally off the charts.

3. In the supposed gas chambers, there is almost 0 trace of zyclon B…...in both studies, the amount of Zyclon B found on those walls is less that 1/1 millionth the amount found in the delousing chambers or something compatible with there having once been a slight amount of gas used to get rid of rats at one point…...or something along those lines…....nothing that would be remotely consistent with use as a gas chamber for mass murder over several years.

All reports will tell you this exact thing

Are you saying the room was originally constructed as an air raid shelter?

Delousing chambers had longterm, high exposure. Why do you think such a comparison is even valid when gas chamberswould have been extremely short exposure?

@Qingu Here is what I am saying….......for the millionth time. When the camp was liberated, those rooms were being used as air raid shelters. The most logical conclusion is that they had ALWAYS been used as air raid shelters and that this was probably their original purpose.

The burden of proof that they had once been used as gas chambers is on the holocaust proponents and they REALLY don’t look like gas chambers. Not only has nearly 0 traces of Zyclon B been found on the wall…......a death penalty expert has stated that there is no way these could have ever been used as gas chambers.

So if I had to guess, I would suggest that they were definitely originally constructed as air raid shelters. The evidence of them having once been gas chambers is very, very poor.

Also, links to aerial photos please.

@Qingu

What you just said is completely wrong. According to holocaust promoters, 1 million people were killed in that room. 1 million. This would require constant, daily exposure to Zyclon B…....constant…....and there is no evidence of this

what’s the burden of proof for establishing that they were always used as air raid shelters?

Strawman. Who is claiming 1 million in a single gas chamber?

@Qingu If I come to your house and take it over, and I see a living room, a bedroom and a bathroom, the most logical conclusion would be that they were constructed as a living room, bedroom and bathroom. If somebody is going to tell me “No No No…..that’s a bathroom now, but it used to be a gas chamber” The burden of proof on proving that would be on them….......not on me, who found it as a bathroom.

The numbers of supposed dead have varied from 700,000 to 4 million. The official number now is 1.1 million and there were never any more than 2 gas chambers…....so even if we took the most minimalist view…..and divided by the maximum amount and said that only…......I’m gonna throw this low ball out there…....150,000 people were gassed in that room….....that would still require over 300 separate gassings, or 1 a day for almost a year and quite frankly….....does it look to you like 500 people could fit in that room? The Zyclon B on the wall doesn’t come anywhere near to suggesting being exposed to 300 individual mass gassings….........again…....there is almost 0 zyclon B residue….....almost none…....less than 1/1millionth the amount found in the delousing chambers…....even though the same gas was apparently used….......so to answer your question…....

That would be a VERY valid comparison

@Qingu As to the Ariel Photos, Cole shows them to us on the video he produced and I’m looking at some in a book I have, put out by the IHR. I’m currently looking for some online. I really don’t understand your reticence to watch the video…...but I’m looking

But the building looks nothing like an air raid shelter. It’s not underground. It’s not even reinforced. It has a chimney. Doesn’t look like it has any storage for food, water, etc. Why on earth would the Germans construct an “air raid shelter” that looks like that?

Secondly, let’s run down the differences between the gas chambers and delousing chambers.

DELOUSING: prolonged exposure to large amounts of poison, sealed
GAS CHAMBERS: short exposure, has been exposed to rain for 35 years

Also, the study I cited made a point to (1) take samples from the gas chambers that would not have been exposed to rain, and (2) compare them to samples from living quarters. While not as high in the delousing chambers, the samples from the gas chambers were significantly higher than the samples from the living quarters. How do you account for this?

@Qingu Correction on my earlier claim. Nobody SUGGESTS that more than 2 gas chambers were operating at the same time and the chamber shown on tour was the main chamber…...gas chamber 1. Now I suggest there were never any more than 0 gas chambers operating at the same….....so exactly how many there were is dependent on if there was ever >0. That being said, were you to take the most extreme view and even tell me that only…......I dunno…..only 20,000 people were killed in Chamber 1….....the Cyanide residue doesn’t not remotely approach something consistent with that claim.

What is your methodology for determining how much cyanide residue there would be in a formely functioning gas chamber exposed to elements for several decades?

And why is there more there than in living quarters?

Also, I’m waiting to hear an explanation for why the hell the Germans would have constructed an above-ground, poorly reinforced air raid shelter, with no storage but with a chimney.

@Qingu We’re back to having a meaningless conversation. they WERE used as Air Raid shelters and if you saw the video or did some research, you would know this. You’re asking me to prove something that is undisputed. They WERE underground. The head historian of the camp admits that, in 1944 and up until the camp was liberated, they were used as Air Raid shelters…......what more proof of this do you possibly need?

As to the amount of Zyclon B residue…....you’re quoting from an interpretation of a report…....not the report itself and we agreed NOT to do that. You’re cheating.

Were you to read all of the reports, you would see that the difference in Cyanide between the air raid shelter/gas chamber, living quarters and delousing chamber would be on the order of 1.3 to 1 to over 1 million. The differences between the living quarters and air raid shelter/gas chamber are almost insignificantly small and are consistent with there having been one or maybe two uses of Zyclon B to delouse the rooms themselves. That fact that there was ANY residue on the living quarters proved that Zyclon B was occasionally used to delouse and Typhus was an empidemic that German were trying to control at the camp.

Finally…...if you were to read Rudolf’s report, it would tell you that Prussian Blue is a VERY stable substance and does not get washed away with rain. It embeds itself in the brick….......there is almost 0 traces of Zyclon B in the air raid shelter or living quarters and a TON in the delousing chambers….....even if you were to account for the fact that the delousing bells held the clothes for 24 hours and the gas chambers for 1 hour….....you’re still not even close to what one would expect to see in the gas chamber/air raid shelter….......

you’re not even in the ballpark

Also, it just occured to me that you’re oddly fixated on the Auschwitz gas chamber. Do you also have evidence disputing that all the other gas chambers at Dachau, etc, were not really gas chambers?

Do you understand the difference between constructing an air raid shelter and using an existing structure as an air raid shelter?

If you were constructing an air raid shelter, you’d expect the building to look and function a lot more like an air raid shelter.

@Qingu

If you look at it…...it’s NOT above ground, Qingu. It’s below ground. The stairs to the gas chamber lead down…...into the ground.

I’m really amazed that your’e still trying to dispute that these were used as Air Raid Shelters. EVERYBODY AGREES they were used as Air Raid Shelters. EVERYBODY, including the head of the Auschwitz museum. NOBODY other than you, says they weren’t…......and yet this doesn’t stop you from demanding an impossibly high level of proof.

@Qingu Oddly fixated? Was this not the conversation we were having? What proof do YOU have that there were chambers at Dachau? hmmmmmmm?

@Qingu And it does look and function like an air raid shelter…....it is not, as you claim, above ground but deeply recessed into the ground. Try doing research before throwing out accusations.

Cheating?

When I agreed to cite statistics, I expected you to be able to defend the relevance of your statistics. Apparently you can’t. Please explain why you would even expect to find high concentrations in a chamber that was not gassed in high concentrations for long periods of time that was exposed to 35 years of rain, or I am forced to conclude that you are blindly quoting a study without even attempting to understand its methodology.

Deeply recessed =/= underground.

There are photos and testimonials of the gas chambers at Dachau, just like at Auschwitz.

I’m giving you five more minutes to make your final case, and then I have to do real work.

Also, I’m not saying they weren’t being used as air raid shelters. You’re just a bundle of straw men, aren’t you.

I’m saying that you have not even begun to prove your positive claim that they were originally constructed as air raid shelters and later made by Soviets to resemble gas chambers—not by any reasonable standard of proof and certainly not by the standards by which you are demanding “Holocaust proponents” prove their claim.

It’s a common fallacy among conspiracy theorists. You believe that poking holes in an accepted theory constitutes proof of an alternate theory. In reality, you have to provide evidence supporting your alternate theory as well.

http://giwersworld.org/holo2/dachgas.phtml

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n3p-9_Staff.html

This conversation is very illustrative and this is how it normally goes. most people, like yourself, think they know about the holocaust.

HOLOCAUST SCHOLARS LIKE SIMON WEISENTHAL admit there were no gas chambers on German Soil.

You’re not going to hear much about Dachau anymore because credible historians no longer promote the myth that there WERE mass killings at Dachau…....and yet here you are, asking me to prove that there wasn’t something, that credible people no claim existed.

What’s amazing is that people assume there WAS. If you asked people on the street about Dachau, they would tell you that there were huge gas chambers there…...but there weren’t…......sorry.

Even the people on your side disagree.

@Qingu

There is a basic analogy you refuse to wrap your mind around. First off all…...I’ve shown you to be wrong about a million times now. They WERE underground…..they WERE reinforced….....

If I came to your house and confiscated it and went into your bathroom and the person I’m with said “this wasn’t originally built as a bathroom…....this was a gas chamber”

That person has a far higher burden of proof than I do….....who is suggesting it was probably built originally as a bathroom.

If I confiscated your house and somebody told me that the bathroom was originally built as a gas chamber…....that’s their case to prove…....you can’t ask me to prove that your bathroom WASN“T originally built as a gas chamber…....that’s ridiculous

@Qingu So in summation…....Simon Weisenthal admits that Dachau was not a mass murder camp.

Go to the United States Holocaust Museum. http://www.ushmm.org/

And research Dachau. The story of Dachau has been quitely dropped…...as have MANY stories about the holocaust that have, over the years, been disproved.

You’ll find a picture of a crematorium with some human remains in it….as there were crematorium in every major city in Europe at the time…..but the suggestion that it was a place where mass gassings took place has been quietly dropped by all major holocaust promoters…....including the United States Holocuast Museum.

These are the things that originally got me focused on this area of research. What people were told about the Holocaust in 1941 is entirely different from what they were told about it in 1945, which is entirely different from what they were told about it in 1960….....which is again…......entirely different from what they were told about it in 1985…....and what they were told about the holocaust in 1985 is entirely different from what they are told about it today.

The facts continue to change…..they continue to shift. Much of the “proof,” that was used continues to get rebuffed and the claims continue to change….....

This should concern anybody who puts a premium on historical truth

I actually have not studied the Holocaust very much. It’s not a subject that’s really interested me.

The reason I’m participating in this conversation is because your logic is flawed in a way that I’m quite familiar with from arguing with religious fanatics. Right down to your insistence that I “just watch the holy texts/videos” and I’ll be instantly converted.

Creationists dispute evolution because they nitpick. They claim that the flagellum motor could not evolved, or they claim that DNA and proteins could not both have arose. They believe that these little nitpicks, even if they did cast doubt, somehow mean that the entire mountain of fossil and genetic evidence should be ignored, and that their alternate theory should be supported. They offer no positive proof of their alternate theory, they think it’s true by fiat if the prevailing theory is successfully disputed.

We have a mountain of forensic and testimonial evidence for the Holocaust. You believe that by nitpicking some of this evidence—for example, the concentration of Zyclon B found in the gas chambers, or the door in Dachau, both claims that we can go back and forth about indefinitely, the first of which I’ve given plain reasons for rejecting your methodology—you can disprove the entire claim that the Germans systematically exterminated millions of Jews.

As of yet, you’ve offered only tidbits of an alternate theory, which you have failed to support by your own burden of proof. You have failed to explain why so many Jews have testified about the conditions of these camps. You’ve failed to explain the photos of the mass graves and piles of bodies. You’ve failed to explain the widespread accounts of missing relatives. Clearly, something happened to millions of Jews in Europe during WW2, and you’ve failed to even advance an alternate theory.

I do hope you realize the logical fallacies inherent in your way of thinking someday, especially if you’re actually going to study history for your career. A view of history where you don’t even attempt to explain what happened if you dispute a theory, where you throw up your arms and just say “there must have been a wide network of bombers, who knows” in response to videos of planes crashing into towers on 9/11—it’s not skepticism, it’s just nihilism. Historical explanations do change, but you need to be able to support what you want them to change into.

Anyway, I’m way late on my own work, so I’m afraid that’s the last I’ll say in this thread.

@TheIowaCynic – Pretty difficult to discuss things with someone when they keep putting words in your mouth and taking things out of context, isn’t it?

@Qingu – Sorry, it looks like I may have reached my lurve max for you already.

testing, testing….....I keep getting my comments removed.

OMFG, it’s over.
Run along!

@asmonet Is OMFG, a standard response? Not a single, solitary piece of evidence I have presented has been explained with any type of thought. I’m sorry that “run along” is all you have.

@TheIowaCynic

you said: ”Not a single, solitary piece of evidence I have presented has been explained with any type of thought.”

that’s very nice of you to admit.

thanks. run along now.

@asmonet Anything you’d like to present? Any explanation? Nobody has countered a thing….......because there is not explanation.

@eponymoushipster WIN!

@eponymoushipster This has been an enlightening thread and one that I’ll be copying for my book. I have received comment after comment after comment, that can best be described as some kind of mob-mentality, nonsense like “WIN!” or “You’ve been served,” and a bunch of nonsense were my opponents are talking to, and encouraging one another. It’s touching, but unfortunately the issues I have raised about the holocaust, that I have brought up again and again and again….....have hardly been addressed.

O

M

F

G

@TheIowaCynic you yourself said you didn’t explain anything you’ve said in this thread.
i think people stopped caring because you can’t and don’t explain anything – you just point to videos on youtube, argue and misquote. aside from the fact you’re rather ignorant and quite possibly a sociopath. but so were the people who ran the camps.

and this thread is quite wordy for a coloring book for racist rednecks.might need a few diagrams and a smiley face.

OMFG!

In your book, are you going to reference the You Tube video?

silly @fireside, coloring books don’t have video!

perhaps it’ll have a pop-up of the Russians building/converting/finding/hiding an “air raid shelter” with a huge smoke stack.

because in Russia, they make their air raid shelthers really, really obvious.

@eponymoushipster You’re showing your own ignorance of the topic. At Auschwitz, the current “huge smoke stack,” is univerally acknowledged…...by the staff and everybody else, to have been added by the Soviets AFTER World War Two.

Thanks for providing me with this example.

I can see it now….

Some dude said this on the internet, “blah, blah, blah”
I think he should watch this other dude’s video.

@TheIowaCynic really – could you provide a link or a reference proving this is “universally acknowledged”.

also, why do you use…... so much? Is it because…...typing with one hand…...you hit…..that key…..a lot?

OMFG!

@eponymoushipster In fact, it’s such a poor “reconstruction,” it doesn’t even attach to the main chamber

@TheIowaCynic in fact, prove it. in fact…..where’s a link?....In fact, where’s a good picture? In fact….have you even been there?

OMFG.

@eponymoushipster

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n1p23_Weber.html

Do you have a link from a site that’s not run by Holocaust deniers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

that’s like looking to a nutjob to prove the voices are there.

[mod says] Enough. This question has gotten very out of hand. I suggest you all leave it alone.

Are you folks still at it?! This Iowa guy is as close-minded as they come. He is never going to explain anything because he cannot, but he is never going to actually read anything anyone else writes because he is close-minded. This is a circular discussion going nowhere in a hurry. If everyone would stop responding to him, then he would be as the sound of one hand clapping

Sorry, @augustlan – we cross-posted.

Very well.

Phooey.

i believe i mentioned something about not feeding trolls around 100 posts ago….

@eponymoushipster You have demonstrated that you’re far more interested in an emotional discussion than a rationale one, but I want to respond to what you’ve said, for the sake of others who might be listening. You highlight a catch-22. The Gas Chambers at Auschwitz, that are currently shown on tour are reconstructions. If you were following this thread earlier, you’d know that the Auschwitz museum director tells us this specifically – that when the camp was liberated, the “gas chambers” were being used as air raid shelters and the Soviets “returned the Air Raid shelters to their original state” as gas chambers, by making holes in the roof (that weren’t there when the Soviets arrived) knocking down walls, removing toilet facilities and making a chimney that doesn’t even attach to the main building. They are reconstructions. HOWEVER, were you to take the tour at Auschwitz, they wouldn’t tell you this. They would tell you the gas chamber was in its original state.

Now, where will you find this interview with the director of the Auschwitz Museum? You wont’ find it on mainstream websites because “mainstream” people are afraid of discussing this information. If you take a look at what has happened to people who have questioned the holocaust story, they have been killed, houses burned, thrown in jail, careers ruined etc….......you can only find this information on non-traditional websites. This doesn’t make it any less true. This doesn’t make the interviews less real or the facts less relevant.

http://judicial-inc.biz/Auschwitz.htm

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/Tour/Auschwitz1/Auschwitz08E.html

@Darwin I’ve asked you several questions you have yet to respond to. You claim that “all anti-semitism should be outlawed,” and that people who question the holocaust are anti-semites and should be thrown in jail. I’d like for you to expound on this.

We know that much of what we were told about the holocaust in, say 1945 has been revised. We know now that the Nazi’s didn’t make shrunken heads out of Jewish skulls. We know now – everybody admits, even holocaust experts – that the “soap made from Jewish fat” or the “lampshades from the skin of Jews” stories were fabrications. There is a great deal more that we have come to revise about the holocaust and this is OFFICIAL revision. The official number of people killed at Auschwitz was 4 million prior to 1989 and it’s now 1 million. That’s a difference of 3 million people and yet the official number of dead stays at 6 million.

Are you proposing people be thrown in jail for asking why?
If somebody, in 1960 questioned the Jewish soap story, should they have been thrown in jail?

Since we know our information on the holocaust continues to evolve, and since we have shown that many of the stories were exaggerations or fabrications, at what point has someone become a “holocaust denier”?

If someone acknowledges that the Nazis targeted Jews but thinks that maybe 2 million were killed, should they be prosecuted for this?

What is your loyalty to freedom of speech? How do you propose squaring these laws your propose for jailing people for questioning the holocaust, with our traditions of free speech?

Should other genocides also be jailable offense for questioning? If somebody suggests that Lazar Kagonovich (Jewish incidentally) killed only 5 million Ukranians and not 12 million Ukranians, are they “denying the holocaust of the Ukranian people?” and they should be thrown in jail?

How about if somebody questions the number of people killed in the Armenian massacre? If they think that only 300,000 were killed by the Turks and not 1 million, should they be thrown in jail?

I’d like an answer to these questions.

@eponymoushipster Here is a more mainstream source, regarding the reconstruction.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kXO9wXvYuAQC&pg=PA198&lpg=PA198&dq=Auschwitz+gas+chamber+reconstruction+chimney&source=bl&ots=P3SnUlU_jM&sig=-a_p0U6TyMJtBzWxY4XJAwQeFas&hl=en&ei=cP7NSd2GCpjpnQeKidTfCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

Where the reconstruction of the gas chambers is spoken of. The “experts,” admit they were “returned to their earlier state” so as to “speak for the history of the 4 crematoria at Birkenau”

Which demonstrates, AGAIN, that what people think they know about the holocaust is a carefully woven fabric of demonstrated lies, in many cases. Were you to take the tour at Auschwitz, they wouldn’t tell you this. They would tell you that the gas chambers were in their original state.

Were you to watch the movie “Shoa” by Stephen Spielberg, they would show this “reconstruction” of the “gas chamber,” complete with the low, humming cello music and never tell you that what you’re looking at is a reconstruction.

Everyone in (Continental primarily) europe suffered.
The displacement of the jews and gypsies then is no
different im many respects to th displacement of
the whites in Africa and elsewhere now.
Every race wants to live with its own, Unless
they can profit from the work of another And have
solidarity within themselves preferably also.
Fact is, there are probably more people of Jewish heritage
now than German, also, Russians are on the wane,
Scandanavians are abortion-crazy liberals generally, USA white couple are penalized fro having a white son, or daughter to a lesser extent, through punative ‘affirmative action’ and ACLU tax payer supported efforts of so-called ‘minorities’
Abortion is encouraged, white women elevated as money driven sex objects, they choose a ‘minority’ partner so their chances
for there own and there childs life is improved, again with the blessing of government handouts, quotas, media, and education, the eradication of any sense of inherent dignity in the white man is the first and foremost, any pride is
charecterized as ‘racist’ though any other race embraces
the same principle and is regarded as ‘culturally aware’
White couples often terminate babies, where mixed couples
white women and ‘minority’ man nearly always, have the baby
almost every time, why is that? The True genocide.
Everywhere in the world that whites are not a Decided majority, the minority-or majority, exploit the women, and subordinate the men. White cultures, on the other hand,
give money, power and women, which the ‘minority’ cultures
readily accept, more often than not Never giving back,
And justify themselves but some BS historical perspective.
Now is Now. Accountability for All, priviledge based on a non-white heritage is prejudice in its purest form, especially
considering whites are the World Minority by a large Amount.

@Crusader Um… seriously? Wow.

Wtf.

Some people shouldn’t have children.

Accountability, Love, Truth.
Is that so much to ask?

Um….really?

There is no Love, (of fellow humans,) without Christ,
No Accountability without Honesty,
No Solidarity without Perspective

@Crusader “No love without Christ?” Hmm, interesting theory. I sure love my fellow human beings, and I’m an agnostic with atheistic leanings. Doesn’t seem to hamper my ability to love.

And I’d like to see some statistical back-up of your claim: “White couples often terminate babies, where mixed couples
white women and ‘minority’ man nearly always, have the baby
almost every time, why is that?”

Bottom line, I’m pretty sure Jesus would not approve of your narrow worldview.

Augustian,
If you believe enough in Jesus to believe
he would not approve of my world view,
that is just fine. I will be accountable for my actions.
The love I refer to is having enough concern
for the souls of others to encourage and support believers
educate and inform questioners, and extort and exhonorate
hypocrites and attackers of the faith.
Christ Love is an Active Love, a love with
responsibilities. And rewards. And a healthy
family with kind, responsible children and a loving
spouse the highest form of blessing.
I espouse Truth, Accountablity, and Love
Yet Without the two former, the latter
is simply opportunism…
As far as statistics are concerned, just
look up the live birth records since 1967
Although with the current census being coducted
by social conservative hating groups like ACORN
Deception is more the rule than the exception…

Are you completely unaware of the definition – never mind the spelling – of exonerate?

And you want to extort others? How very fucking Christian.~

And by the way, the reason ‘minority’ births are higher is mostly due to poverty, not ethnicity. Unless, you blame the ethnicities of the ‘majority’ for putting them there.

Delete your account, educate yourself, and come back as a valid human being – we’d love to have you then.

asmonet
Thank you for your post.
I sense anger in your messege,
Sorry if you allow yourself to become
upset over a differing opinion.
Also, your reasoning is flawed,
Logically, higher income individuals
should have more children-because they can afford them
not the reverse, higher incomes working
longer and harder often, subsidizing
poor with government mandates for minorities
etc…Or do you benefit yourself from
these policies?

@Crusader The poor do not get government assistance for an abortion. Are you going to lend them the money?

I have yet to meet Anyone who cannot put $200.00 together.
Try again.

@Crusader – actually I have met quite a few people, especially in my current town where the average reading level is 5th grade and we have the highest school drop out rate in the state, for whom $200 is an impossible dream. That is a lot of money when you are unemployed or paid minimum wage.

*Sigh…I just believe everyoen should have the
same opportunities for life, liberty, and the pusuit of happiness…Also, a child is Far more expensive than
termination of a child, somehow these minimum wagers
(particularly latinos) manage it, (wilth 4–5 children in tow)
Though I must admit they are well adjusted, despite
theri finances usually…

@Crusader – Define well-adjusted.

The elder children mind the younger,In public transportation,
I have observd a group of latino youth and a their mother
waiting patiently, and always, unless very young, minding their
mother. Often ideal examples of humbleness, too….

Also, they quit school at 14 to go to work at back-breaking, mind-numbing jobs, and start having babies then, too, thus perpetuating the cycle of poverty. And you cannot tell how many are also gang members who will go on to be arrested and jailed for breaking many laws, even though they still respect their mothers.

Darwin, what country are you living in, may I ask?

You know, every society needs someone to perform labor,

This is the rule in America, 1st and 2nd generations

labor, if responsible, (and a little lucky) 3rd generation

and beyond are the white-collar people.

Though, it is 1st and 2nd generation latinos now because

of affirmitive re-action. This is possible because

of a current base of white male workers, next

generation…?

Yes, gangs are problematic, particularly when

such a lifestyle is glorified…

I live in the United States of America currently.

Well, with the tales of woe from the Mexican homeland

coupled with the conservative Catholic upbringing,

I believe Latinos will be in a position of responsible

leadership in the next generation, so long as they

maintain their socially conservative principles….

Depends on which Latino group you speak to.
They’re like anybody else, you can’t generalize them like that.

That’s the mistake everyone keeps making.

Holy ignorance Batman!

also why in the hell do you keep typing in such a weird format? Why do you feel the need to hit enter in the middle of a sentence and make your replies
that
much
longer
is it because
you think it will
draw more attention
and get us to read
your clearly closed minded
and horribly inaccurate views
of this country and world?

@uberbatman – lol, your latest post looks familiar – funny that it was the next one I saw after writing mine.

LOL

I just thought everyone was writing poetry instead of prose.

Okay seriously. This dude (or lady)‘s name is “Crusader” why did everyone jump into dealing with someone that was clearly planning on jumping in here to proselytize and nothing else?
Find someone else’s time to waste.

[mod says] Excessive txtspk and misspellings removed.

Someone resurrected this Holocaust denial thread with… poetry and txtspk?