Why do you suppose that feminism first took route and developed in predominantly Christian Countries?

Look at how women are treated in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries, and you will have your answer.

If you look at U.S. history, you’ll see an odd alliance between the Suffrage movement and the Temperance movement in the early 1900s. The Temperance movement had broad support among the nation’s churches, and women played an active role in it. It gave them some real political clout, which they had not enjoyed previously. Temperance didn’t work out, but Suffrage did.

That’s my take on it, anyway.

@IchtheosaurusRex So do you suppose there is a link between Christianity or Christian culture and feminism?

@TheIowaCynic , not necessarily in Christian culture worldwide, but certainly in the context of social Progressivism in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. I think women first found a political voice in the Protestant churches of the day.

Because it is Christian cultures that need feminism. Of course please don’t think I’m stating all Christian or anything of that nature. But many other cultures and religions traditionally believed in equality of man and woman. Thus no need for feminism. For example the Native American culture (which I am a part of). Before colonization and the forcing of Christian religion on Native people we had equality between the sexes. I can explain more if you want but stereotypes such as men having multiple wives are largely just stereotypes. There is documented evidence stating that the colonizers were unsettled by the role of women in Native tribes and their power within. So they forced their beliefs, mostly stemming from their Christian backgrounds, that there is not equality. One way they did so is by literally stealing Native children from their families and putting them in boarding schools. Once in the boardings schools they would strip children of all their culture and punish them for using it. Then they would separate boys and girls. They literally taught girls how to be subservient and housewives. Thus taking away the equality between the sexes. Now I am not knocking Christianity at all. Those are just facts. And it is people that were subject to these things that needed feminism.

@RedPowerLady: so women in Islamic cultures and Hindu cultures are all treated equally, and it’s only Christian cultures in which this disparity exists?

@cwilbur In countries with older histories than the US you have to look back farther. But we all have indigenous roots. And in many of these cultures, before colinization, typically colinization by Christian cultures, there was equality between the sexes.

But PLEASE don’t think I am being overarching. I am not stating this is true for everyone and that it is only true for Christian cultures. Just talking about what I know.

Well, let’s see. Could it have been because of their god’s discrimination on the grounds of biological traits like sex, the male dominance in Christian marriage, ordination of women, reproductive rights, or assertions of moral absence and inabilities of women compared to men, perhaps?

@RedPowerLady The idea that there was male/female equality between the sexes in Native American culture is a myth and I suspect you know this. In every culture, from ocean to ocean, men were chiefs…...not women. The Plains indian required that a female over child-bearing age, be owned and claimed by a man. If there was no man to claim an older women, she would be driven out to die. Women, in most native American cultures were also not allowed any property other than their personal items.

When feminism came to the forefront in Western/Christian cultures, womens right were already FAR ahead of Asian and and African cultures as far as rights for women go, so I have to disagree with you. You make a few claims that don’t hold up to the facts.

@Acyd You’ve just asked a few, very sarcastic questions. Is there a response in there?

@RedPowerLady This idea of there having once between sexual equality is a theory that doesn’t hold up to facts. In almost every culture we know of, in recorded history, rights for women have progressed for the last 5,000 years, at different rates.

The idea that there was once general equality between the sexes doesn’t seem to hold up to historical evidence.

@ThelowaCynic What you said is ridiculous. I think I would know about my own culture. Women were called “Clan Mothers” instead of Chiefs. And there were more Matriarchal tribes than Patriarchal. We KNOW this to be true. It is scientific fact and not up for debate. I don’t know where you think you are getting your information from but you are wrong.

@TheIowaCynic What you said is ridiculous. I think I would know about my own culture. Women were called “Clan Mothers” instead of Chiefs. And there were more Matriarchal tribes than Patriarchal. We KNOW this to be true. It is scientific fact and not up for debate. I don’t know where you think you are getting your information from but you are wrong.

@TheIowaCynic What historical evidence are you talking about??? Perhaps post colonization.

@TheIowaCynic
Quote: When feminism came to the forefront in Western/Christian cultures, womens right were already FAR ahead of Asian and and African cultures as far as rights for women go, so I have to disagree with you. You make a few claims that don’t hold up to the facts.

Because those countries had already been colonized.

@RedPowerLady I appreciate your enthusiasm but you keep saying factually untrue things. Are you telling me that Asian and AFrican countries had lots of rights for women until they were colonized?

Nobody proposes this idea. NOBODY. You’re all alone in making that suggestion.

As to the idea that Indian tribes were more likely to be matriarchal, you’re also the only person I’ve ever heard make that claim. Do you have a source you would like to cite for us?

@TheIowaCynic
I do not know enough about other Indigenous societies to argue this point with you other than Native American people of course. Although what I do know has been told to me by people of that culture. So I am confident in my knowldege.

About Native people. Is PBS a good enough source for you?
http://www.pbs.org/indiancountry/challenges/families2.html

And the fact that you haven’t heard the truth. I.E. anyone else “make this claim” is not surprising considering your stance on the issue. Do you even know traditional people from other cultures?

@TheIowaCynic
Here is an article about African cultures:
http://khemet.co.uk/women.html

@RedPowerLady

I do not know anybody personally from native American culture. This does not mean I’m incapable of knowing anything about the culture through studying it. In fact, the oral-traditions of a conquered and subjugated people are probably not the most objective source to go to, regarding it’s history.

Many of the early Colonists were actually horrified at the treatment of Native American woman….....I;ve never heard this claim that they thought the Native American woman had too much power and that this needed to be corrected. Do you have a source for this?

Also, your link on African women is a bit misleading. In many african cultures, they still mutilate the genitals of their women. White people didn’t teach them this. Furthermore, many of those cultures are very promiscuous by our standards. It’s often the case that nobody knows who the father is, and so children will be raised by the brothers of the woman who have them…......this does not really define a “matriarchal culture” It’s more of a culture where the men are very unconstrained.

I’d be very hesitant to accept “people from that culture told me so” as a reliable indicator of anything that happened more than 50 years ago, let alone several hundred. People tend to romanticize the past, and oral traditions are not always reliable.

@TheIowaCynic So you didn’t comment on the PBS article. Hmm… Perhaps becasue I provided proof. And btw I am not shocked you know no Native Americans. I have a hard time believing they would be friendly with you. Or anyone would be for that matter. I am thinking you asked this question just to argue. Even though you have no evidence to back up your insidious comments. And please please stop spreading falsities about cultures that are not your own. It is not true that colonizers were appalled at the treatment of women.

Here is a fantastic article for you: http://www.lurj.org/article.php/vol1n1/running.xml

And here is some proof about them being impressed. Or do our own President’s not count?

Maybury-Lewis, David. Millennium: Tribal Wisdom and the Modern World. New York: Viking, 1992.

This survey of aboriginal cultures around the world, prepared by Cultural Survival of Cambridge, Mass., contains a well-developed description of the Iroquois League’s origins and operations. It also mentions Cannassatego’s advice to the colonies on unification in 1744, and Benjamin Franklin’s use of the theme in the early 1750s. Both Franklin and Jefferson were impressed by Indians’ political systems, especially regarding egalitarianism. “There is an argument raging currently over whether or not the founding fathers of the United States of America consciously modelled their new nation on the Iroquois Confederacy. It seems to me, however, that the important thing is not whether they did or did not, but the fact that they could have. There were, after all, no models in Europe at that time for the kind of federal republic that the Americans established.” Maybury-Lewis cites Forgotten Founders.

@cwilbur I guess we have a fundamental difference then. Because I believe oral traditions are accurate as is the basis of my culture. We have passed on traditions, medicines, ceremonies, oral histories for thousands of years without fail.

Of course I am also an educated woman and I do my own research as well. I just don’t feel up to providing proof and doing all the research for my ThelowaCynic. And it’s not my place to talk about cultures other than my own. Of course you will see that I did provide proof for all statements from my own culture.

My understanding is that feminism took root as a result of the social transformations brought about by the rise of industrial capitalism. It just so happens that Christian countries were the first to experience this socio-economic shift, but there’s no reason to believe that there’s any direct connection between the Christian aspect of the cultures and the rise of feminism.

@RedPowerLady: And I’ve heard family tales of things that turned out to have become significantly embroidered, because nobody remembered that the whole thing was being filmed. I’ve also heard people tell me things about “the good old days,” presenting them as absolute fact, and they didn’t line up with any record from the times.

If this kind of discrepancy can come up in 20 years of oral tradition, how much more inaccuracy could crop up in 200?

And how do you know that the traditions, medicines, ceremonies, and oral histories are accurate and have not changed for thousands of years? You have no other records to compare them to.

@Harp I might have to agree with you here. There are always more predominant factors when it comes to equality. I don’t think it is the religion itself that is at fault.

@cwilbur Oral traditions are not the same as urban legends. There is a whole science behind oral traditions. It is not just the simple retelling of a tale. Only certain people were/are allowed to pass on oral traditions and they are/were trained to tell the “stories” or perform the “cermonies”/“medicines” in the right way only. If they can’t do so they are removed from that role. It is very different than the contemporary passing along of stories. In fact is something different altogether and cannot be categorized in the same light.

As a matter of fact there are some evidences such as archeological evidence that proves some of our oral traditions. And something like the passing of medicines is proof of itself. Either the medicines work or they don’t. And the Cherokee did have a written alphabet by 1821. So we can at least go back that far as far as written languages are concerned. And of course there are comparisons between colonizers records and our oral traditions. Take the story of Crater Lake for example. I wish my husband was home because he could provide some better links to this. But the oral tradition of the rupture of a volcano causing crater lake has existed as oral tradition for thousands of years. And of course we have crater lake to prove it’s true.
Here is a link
and another link

I am going to stop following this question as I have been recently come to discover that some people here may not have honest intentions. And boy do I feel like a fool for arguing with someone who is just trying to get my goat.

so I understand you guys completely deny the existence of matriarchal societies?

Throughout the ages, from Neanderthal to the beginning of the industrial age women had no say.

Preposterous…

@TaoSan you’ve presented a total logical fallacy. Nobody has denied the existence of matriarchal societies, have they? Nobody has said women had no say, did they? You’re putting words into peoples mouths.

What I have said is that the existence of matriarchal cultures are extremely rare throughout history.

People like the early minoans seem to have had queens, but they seemed to have primarily served a religious function. The great families of Minoan society were still headed by men. It would be like – let’s imagine somebody dug up 17th Century England and saw all of these queens ruling. Would it be fair to have called late 16th and early 17th century England “Matriarchal”? Well of course not.

Similarly, some of what takes place in Africa is incorrectly interpreted as a “Matriarchal culture,” because names are passed down from the mothers line. This doesn’t mean woman have all the power. It means nobody knows who the dad is.

Women have always had some degree of power, but in general, this power has greatly increased in modern times and….....as I suggest with the question, primarily in Western/Christian cultures.

@TheIowaCynic

Quote from your own quip:

“In every culture, from ocean to ocean, men were chiefs…...not women.”

Am I reading you wrong?

@TheIowaCynic i applaud your persistence in trying to incite discussion and debate in any possible shape or form without giving thought as to content and or subject matter.

Your unwavering desire to be able to express your own ideals is to be applauded as a step forward in the fight against sanity and good taste.

Please continue to delight us with your rants, it makes great fodder for dissection and ridicule.

You sir have made my week. And your affinity for repetition, contradiction and ignoring your own faults helps us better appreciate the beauty of what a narcissistic personality is truly capable of.

Bravo

@TheIowaCynic: you said ” In many african cultures, they still mutilate the genitals of their women. White people didn’t teach them this. Furthermore, many of those cultures are very promiscuous by our standards. It’s often the case that nobody knows who the father is, and so children will be raised by the brothers of the woman who have them”.

Genital mutilation has a purpose, which is distinctly anti-feminism. Score for you. Not sure where it came from. It’s practiced in a number of Middle Eastern cultures as well.
Muslim cultures. Whatever.

“many of those cultures are very promiscuous by our standards”: that is a result of
hundreds of years of disempowerment of those cultures by colonialism. Did you know that? I didn’t but I did some reading. You could too. Try Chinua Achebe’s trilogy, starting with “Things Fall Apart” (a very telling title).

The matriarchal basis of the Iroquois Nation is well documented by white people, the only people you appear to believe can be trusted (hmm). Take a look. It’ll be interesting for you. It’s only an example. Its existence doesn’t invalidate your idea that feminism only prospers in Christian societies.

With regard to that:
“feminism” is the struggle against repression. Talking about societies in which women were not repressed may be another discussion. Women were certainly repressed in traditional American society. Want to name some OTHER Christian societies where feminism has been successful? I can think of some. You?

p.s. took “root”, not “route”.

I always thought that Feminism had its roots in the Suffragette movement and the desire for voting rights.

Maybe Western cultures adopted this position sooner because there wasn’t much voting being done in Eastern cultures at the time.

I don’t think it has anything to do with Christianity. It has to do with the Enlightenment that transformed European culture from “Christendom” to “The West.”

The reason women’s rights are common in “Christian countries” and not in “Muslim countries” is because Islamic culture’s Enlightenment is lagging behind Christian culture’s Enlightenment by at least a couple centuries. Women have fewer rights in the Bible than they do in the Quran.

I think feminism took root when women became sick and tired of being second class citizens. It gained strength when more women entered the work force and became economically independent. And became even more deeply rooted with the invention of the tampon and availability of birth control.

@harp This is the best answer so far. I think you hit the nail on the head. Most people like to imagine the social changes happen as a result of “movements;” marches and this kind of thing, but the fact of the matter is that those are usually the results of other forces that come to bear on a society. In this case, you’re 100% correct. I think the rise of industry, which put a greater premium on brains and less on brawn (where women are evenly matched) allowed women to ascend. Good comment.