To see oneself, through eye of foe... could this be, the greatest gift a man can know?

No. To see one’s self as your enemy does might be advantageous in defeating your enemy, but the greatest gift a man can know? I’d say the gift of children and family, or of wisdom and how the universe works and his place in it would rank higher.

Thanks for correcting my faulty contraction of “one’s self”... my bad.

Yes, I see your point. Recognizing the enemy for what it really is can be looked at as the first advantage in defeating it. Point taken…

It’s also good to appreciate the “gift” of children and family. We would all be better off if that was given top honors in the lives of those who have them.

May I suggest, that what makes the family such a prize, is the notion of it being looked at as an extension of “one’s self”. That “one’s self” has been expanded upon and expressed in many different ways, unique to themselves, yet connected to the self nonetheless.

See the foe for what he “really” is, means just that. What he “really” is… is a human being, just like me, capable of all the good and bad contemplations that I am. He can act out of good will, just like I can. He can act out of fear, just like I can.

I believe it was Confucius who claimed something to the effect of…
“When I come across a noble man, I make him my equal. When dealing with fools, I learn from them”.

Does it not follow then, that the other gifts of “wisdom” and understanding “how the universe works”, could be attained through acknowledging the propensity of all humans to share the very same flaws, along with the very same potentials?

If it is possible, what are the requirements necessary to allow it to happen?

What is required is stepping outside of yourself, outside of the grasping nature of one’s own ego, outside of the emotion that can consume a person be it rage or depression or any other emotion.

To see another and view things from their perspective means that your own situation does not form your opinion about how others perceive you.

@fireside Seems as such.

A majority of the time we have an enemy because they are so much like us. If you really want enlightenment than learn to laugh at what your enemy sees in you, and see your enemy as a friend.

@Blondesjon – good answer, jerk : P

I think it would be the greatest gift MAN (plural) can know.

consider a staunch darwinian scientist vs a staunch creationist.

if both of them could understand exactly what makes each come to the conclusion they do, they would know immediately how to overcome the other’s objections. That is, assuming that one of their walls of evidence and foundation of beliefs could in fact be overcome by the other.

This is evidenced by a simple 12 piece puzzle. The variables and rules are so easy that both a darwinian and a creationist can come to the same conclusion about what the right answer is.

But when things get more complicated involving years of evidence and study and thousands of different ideas that can all fit eachother in millions of ways, the puzzle becomes hard to solve in only one way that seems to make sense.

Both the darwinian and the creationist have different pieces of the puzzle missing and sometimes it’s too hard to tell what pieces the other doesn’t have access to so, correcting their misunderstandings of the final conclusion becomes difficult.

@ninjacolin Not to mention the variant extremes of thinking that are present within each individual camp (Darwinian/Creationist). To consider each as unified within itself may sell books, but there is no absolute truth in holding this position.

Some of us are downright Creavolutionists who believe in Darwintelligent Design.

Greatest gift? I think it unlikely. In the first place, I don’t agree to a presumption that there is a giver of gifts on the scale of all humanity. As a line of poetry it has its points and might be very effective in a given context. I don’t recognize the aphorism (other than to see via Google that it is recycled from wis.dm). Is it a quote?

But if the actual question here is about recognizing the self within the other, and specifically about recognizing self within an antagonistic other, yes, I think there is great value in that. I think it is one of the most powerful kinds of teaching there are, provided that one is open to the lessons.

The reason I say this is that there have been occasions throughout my own life in which I have felt a strong aversion to someone, much stronger than dislike—a visceral reaction that bypassed all rational faculties—in situations where I simply could not avoid them, such as the workplace. I came to realize, usually not all at once but over time, that to me those people seemed to be gross magnifications of my own worst traits, the things I liked least in myself and wished I could banish. Dealing with them was exactly like confronting the darkest and most unpleasant corners of my own personal sewer. Their proximity made me feel exposed, as though anyone could see the invisible bond of likeness between us and their sheer presence in my vicinity would cause others to discover in me things I would prefer to conceal.

The people who talk about “awareness” with true understanding are not enamored of its unmitigated wonderfulness. They know it can be sharp, painful, even paralyzing before it is liberating.

Seeing these grotesque exaggerations of my faults in a disfiguring mirror was a more powerful shaper of behavior than any amount of therapy could have been. I never spoke of them to anyone, but I hold those teaching images in my mind almost like gargoyles meant to ward off evil spirits.

I wonder if I will ever be brave enough one day to ask myself to whom I might be performing the same admonitory service.

Gatekeeper? evolutionary step? I don’t know. I tend to think those things are accomplished one person at a time and not in any wholesale shepherding of minds into a new becoming. I won’t live long enough to complete the task of improving myself, but I do hope I make good use of the lessons I find in my path.

“Oneself” is correct.

“recognizing self within an antagonistic other,”

is it always so that an antagonist has qualities which significantly need be addressed by the victim?

Victim?

the person being antagonized. you. the one “oneself” refers to as opposed to the “foe” character.

an⋅tag⋅o⋅nis⋅tic
–adjective
1. acting in opposition; opposing, esp. mutually.
2. hostile; unfriendly.

I am not speaking of a victim and aggressor. I am referring to a feeling of hostility or opposition toward someone, a feeling that may or may not be reciprocated.

To your question, I would say no, not necessarily, although I don’t see that it would be wrong to address those qualities. It may be that nothing needs remedying.

What I am saying is that for me it has been true a number of times that a person toward whom I feel a strong aversion turns out to be like me in ways that make me uncomfortable. I have used that information to address my own issues of attitude and behavior. And therefore when I do have that reaction to someone, I know that it is wise to see if my feeling masks a truth I should examine.

But this does not describe all antagonistic relationships, not by any means. In a significant number of cases what I will see if I look more closely is commonalities that are good and valuable. And those things will help to break down the enmity.

It is worth noting that if one finds oneself in strong opposition to someone, it is almost certainly true that both parties regard the same thing as very important. Their views of it may be at opposite extremes, but the dimension itself is major to them both. That is a very important commonality. Think, for example, how much closer in spirit two people are if one is a great lover of highly structured, classically harmonious music and the other is passionate about discordant, free-form improvisational music—because music matters so much to both of them. They have more in common than someone who doesn’t care much about music at all and instead puts that mental and emotional energy into, say, tropical fish, religion, or podiatry.

This is all Jungian shadow stuff for me, so my answer to you is while it might not be the GREATEST gift, it’s certainly a very important one.

By viewing someone as a foe, one is actually forcing a wedge between themself and the perceived foe. This internal feeling of separation and differentiation can cause more suffering than the situation at hand actually creates.

By finding the commonalities, one is able to find a path forward that can be mutually beneficial. Obviously, this also requires that the other is of the same mindset.

The greatest gift man can know does not come from adopting the perspective of their foe. The greatest gift, in my opinion, is finding that there is no foe.

@Jeruba Admirable to recognize that gifts must be given… received, ultimately leading to a giver. Extra credit bestowed upon those recognizing they can be given to “oneself”. Presumptions of an ultimate giver to all of humanity are unnecessary, yet do not reject that possibility entirely.

I do my best to acknowledge authors of that which is quoted. In this case, no recognition is due. Recycled from wis.dm yes, but altered accordingly for this forum. I’ve had little success in communicating effectively within this environment, in the manner I choose. Tongue is tied here, conforming to preconceived notions of how I should speak.

Bondage flowers freedom however, and the joy of suffering will often genesis strength. Those gifts are mine… if I will give them.

Let’s consider the foe need not be antagonist. My foe may be the quaint little villagers who just want to be left alone and not join my wicked kingdom of doom.

Your experiences sound very familiar to me. Perhaps we have shared the lessons as well. I call this the Cry of Truth Molested. It may only be heard in the silent stillness of humility. It will only be heard if one is listening.

Our last engagement provided much needed wisdom for the suffering of that time. To kill a dragon, we must sink to the lowest depths. There the dragon is vulnerable, his unprotected underbelly invites us to strike out his heart.

Jeruba
“I came to realize, usually not all at once but over time,…”

Is this not evolution?

@fireside The movie “Enemy Mine” comes to mind.

@aprilsimnel What do you know of the shadow?

I know that whenever I get pissed off at someone for some trait I don’t like, I’d do best to look and see what aspect of my self it is that I’m denying or trying to push away in a misguided effort to be a perfect person. I’m not 100% at it, but I check myself more than I have previously.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies, for me it is, at least in a sense. Is that what you mean by “the next evolutionary step of humanity”? That’s a little more grandiose than anything that my sense of internal personal growth leads me to.

HU