Are jokes that use racial or ethnic humor by definition racist?

I can’t think of a racial joke that doesn’t play off of a stereotype.

You know, this is a pretty good question, as it is something I have been curious about for a long time. Thanks for asking it, I look forward to the answers.

Of course, there are plenty of stereotype jokes that aren’t racist. Redneck humor, trailer park humor, etc.

It’s an enforced form of “otherness”. When you tell a joke about a race or ethnicity you are enforcing that race’s “otherness” from the collective. The same goes for ethnicity. Enforcing otherness and defining a person by one aspect, not the many that actually make them, is alienating. So, is it a sign of overt bigotry? Sometimes, but not always. Is it a sign of internalized racism/bigotry that the teller is aware of? Not always. But I think it is, at the very least, a sign of internalized “this is different from that” and, at some level, when things are different they are also ranked.

Which is a long way of saying “yes, in a way”.

There are forms of redneck and trailorpark humor that certainly look down on both of those.

Every one that I have ever heard was. The person telling the joke may or may not be a racist, but the jokes are racist.

I think it’d be important to define “racism”

And I think implicit in real “racism” is a value-judgement. That “I’m better [or worse] than you by virtue of your [gender/race/orientation/religion/ethnicity/etc]”

I don’t think jokes that play off stereotypes necessarily do this.

Anyone have an example of a non-racist racial joke?

No, it’s not at all. People need to quit always being so over sensitive. There are different races, and they have their differences. Why try to hide it? And why lose all humour when it comes to those differences? They can be really funny sometimes.
(of course, some are probably racist, but not all)

I can’t say with certainty that all such jokes are racist, but I sure am uncomfortable and/or angry when I hear one. So my gut says yes.

So is it racist or not at all racist? Pick one your contradicting yourself..Oh I get it as long as it’s funny it’s not racist right that’s what your saying? Your right people come from different cultures and what may not offend one still may offend another so the best bet is to not say it that way no one gets offended…

Can we get a working definition of exactly what “racist” means? Hard to tell you if something is racist if I don’t know what racist is

Anything pertaining to race?
Something derogatory about race?
Valuing races?

The most important thing to consider: “Could I tell this joke to someone of this ethncity/group without feeling uncomfortable?” If someone from that ethnic group finds it rude then it is. We don’t have the right to tell others what is rude for their own culture. By doing so you are telling them about their own culture. That is oppression.

As a Native American and someone with so much life experience with other ethnicities I can tell you that when people tell these types of jokes they are racist. They continue stereotypes. And by telling them and acting as if they have no power, when in fact they do, you are engaging in the act of oppression. Jokes have power. Especially if children hear them. There is also some internalization that goes on when you hear such jokes, especially if you think they are funny.

Now there are some jokes that poke fun of racist jokes. They are a fine line. I would say an example might be Mad TV. They are horrible but they are horrible to point out racism not to be racist.

decides to attempt it

A German, a Pole and a Jew go into a bar. The German sits down and decides to order a beer. The Pole sits down next to him and also orders a beer. The Jew sits down next to them, thinks for a moment, then also orders a beer.

When the beers arrive…

they have a good conversation and then go home.

@RedPowerLady Would it be possible for me to construe your account name as racist? What if mine was “WhitePowerMan”?

@phoenyx Well played!

@theluckiest Racism is a very complex term to define. I took an entire class in college dedicated to defining the term. It’s not as simple as a dictionary definition. But here is a dictionary definition for you: 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

@RedPowerLady I don’t want a dictionary definition ;) I want a real, working definition that makes sense in the modern world. What do YOU think racism is?

@theluckiest: I believe, though I could be wrong, that “white power” has a different connotation than “red power”. Accordingly, “red power” is socially acceptable while “white power” is not.

is disappointed that RedPowerLady might not be a communist female electrician

@phoenyx She could be. I think at this point, we are assuming she is not. Just because she’s native american, that doesn’t mean the name refers to that…

@EmpressPixie No doubt they have radically different connotations, and I would never – ever – want to be associated with something like that. But to me the name (red, black, white, green purple, whatever) still implies some kind of hierarchical order in which Red is supreme. And I think it’s very possible to color that racists (pun). I’m not offended. Nor do I think people should be by it. But if racist = discriminating (choosing, preferring, advantaging) based on race… I believe that screen name could possibly qualify. And many “racist” jokes wouldn’t.

@theluckiest: I actually agree to an extent that the name is, at least, racially aware. At most, racist. She is choosing to self-define that sense of apartness and otherness. But I think it is likely it is a response to years of racism more so than overt feelings of superiority.

@theluckiest

Simple Answer:

White Power is associate with racist brutal acts. There is a White Power Movement that has killed tons of people. Yes it is a solidarity but it also has the Power to hurt people. Just the term White Power provokes fear.

RedPower is simply an act of solidarity. Never associated with acts of brutality. No red power groups. No power to hurt people of other ethnicities.

HUGE difference.

@theluckiest I couldn’t say it all here. We’d have to talk in person I would think. But basically racism involves an element of power. Are you aware of the term Hegemony?

I understand “hegemony” to mean, the dominance of one type. In business or in politics especially

@phoenyx Good attempt. I say the only offensive thing about that joke is that you are defining people by their cultures. The term “A Jew” for example.

@RedPowerLady: Would it be better or worse to replace “Jew” with “Ashkenaz”?

@EmpressPixie I believe with all my heart that no people have ever been more oppressed than the native inhabitants of the Americas.
And I am completely sympathetic to the notion of increased community identity due to persecution. I think that’s a normal and healthy response. It does, however, draw near a line.
A discussion I’ve had at great lengths a number of times is, to what extent is it rational to be “proud” of your heritage?

@RedPowerLady it’s tricky though, because “Jew” is race, culture and/or religion. I came up with the joke on the spot, so it could use some reworking.

@theluckiest It also plays a big role in racism. Basically there are two levels of racism.
One is at the individual level. I call you a bigoted name. You get hurt feelings. I’ve been racist. I hurt you and maybe your family or perhaps even other kids in the area. It’s on a small scale level.

Then there is racism on a societal level. This involves hegemony. An element of power. I don’t know how to put this extremely well but bare with me. Because people of the majority have most of the power in the world when they commit an act of racism it has power. It affects not just one individual. It stops people from getting jobs. It creates laws that are racially biased. It keeps people in poverty. The ideas and beliefs of this group of people affects EVERYONE around them. So back to the racist jokes. If the majority then feels that these jokes are funny and say them all the time, tell them at the workplace etc.. they are having an impact much bigger than the individual level. They are basically setting a societal standard that it is okay to talk about other people in this way, as long as it is just a joke. While the people of color are suffering the consequences. Maybe not people of color but people in the minority, whatever group that may be. Ex: They have to go to work and feel unsafe because people are telling these jokes. They can’t tell their boss they are uncomfortable because the boss too thinks its funny. Their work declines because they are bothered by it. etc…

I suppose that is a beginning.

@EmpressPixie I don’t even know that word to be honest but I’m about to look it up.

@theluckiest In response to the proud comment. I think as long as you are not harming anyone else it’s all good. When you go beyond that it needs to be examined. That is where I would draw the line. I think we’ve all seen examples of both.

@redpowerlady: There is a word for racism at the societal, systemic level and I cannot think of it! If I could, I’d put it here because it serves as a nice distinction between getting called a nasty name by someone and being afraid to lose your job in a bad economy because you want to complain about joking, but your boss joins in on them.

@phoenyx I think the joke was a good one for this purpose. I personally don’t feel comfortable with the defining of terms in that way. BUT I could see it used as an example of making fun of racist jokes. It would all depend on context I suppose.

@EmpressPixie Exactly! I just wish I could remember all of this terminology. It would make the conversation much easier and smoother.

@RedPowerLady I call the second paragraph of your eloquent response above “institutionalized racism”, and as we increase societal protections against such situations, they persevere. The “hegemony” there is when one group has the ability to impose it’s will on a minority group. Fresh, contemporary example- gay marriage rights. The majority- heterosexuals- decided homosexuals don’t need/deserve the same protections afforded to heterosexual couples through the civi, not religious institution of marriage.
This has had many other obvious historical (and contemporary) occurrences. It’s something that must be avoided, I think we can agree.

@Empresspixie @theluckiest

Quote:
“But I think it is likely it is a response to years of racism more so than overt feelings of superiority.”

That is exactly the difference between oppression and hegemony. The difference between white power and red power. When it is in response to racism and an act of solidarity instead of as an act of power and possibly harm. There is such a big difference when someone is reacting to racism than when some is overtly being racist.

@theluckiest Yes. Perfectly so. And thank you. I was searching my brain for the word “institutionalized racism”

Basically when it comes to racist jokes i think it comes down to self-determination
we should not impose our will over others (i.e. the hegemony thing), just because we think it is funny doesn’t make it so
each ethnic group or cultural group has the right to determine for themselves what they find racist about their own culture and we should respect their choice

My attempt at a joke that depends on race for humor:

In Seattle, shortly after the 9–11 attacks, a car drove by a man with dark skin tone and a person in the car shouted, “Go back where you came from!” The man being accosted, a prominent member of the local Native American community responded, “You first!”

I’d like to hear your thoughts and then will post my own.

for illustration and discussion

The Lone Ranger and his faithful Indian Native American companion Tonto found themselves surrounded by a band of warriors. The Lone Ranger turned to his friend and said, “What do we do now, Tonto?”
Tonto replied, “What you mean we, White Man?”

@EmpressPixie Now see I think that is an example of what we call “Indian Humor”. Again very complicated. But basically “Indian Humor” is a way for Native people to talk about things they wouldn’t otherwise discuss. It makes light situations that are difficult. This being a prime example. It addresses the issue of colonization. And since Natives have no hegemony, no power, when it comes to colonization it just isn’t racist. Now I won’t say it couldn’t offend someone on a personal level and then I would feel sorry. But I am talking about the bigger picture.

First of all, this is a true story.
Second, I think it is amusing.
It turns a racist act on its ear which is where the humor comes from.
However, I would still be uncomfortable with re-telling it without knowing that the man accosted was a prominent member not only in the local Native society but also Seattle as a large and that the city (and newspaper that reported it) rallied behind him.

@EmpressPixie I definitely believe it’s a true story. It’s also a common joke when dealing with Native Humor. It happens in real life all the time.

It is a great example of turning a racist act on its ear. I sincerely agree.

@Yetanotheruser I would say the same for this joke about it being “Indian Humor” as I posted above.

There is also a saying in some parts of the US that were at one time part of Mexico. When some Mexican/Native Americans are told to “go back where the came from”, the response is often “We didn’t cross the border, the border crossed us!”

Do we want to talk about that kind of race based humor as a means to diffuse tension with the in-group, but potentially leading to the continuation of racism in the out-group? Or the continuation of in-group, out-group differences in allowable behavior as problematic in ways?

@Yetanotheruser I LOVE that one too. And so true!

(I mostly ask because I figure at this point anyone sticking with the discussion probably agrees, but it’s also a good/interesting subject.)

@EmpressPixie It really depends on how far the humor is going. Since there is no hegemony it really has no power at all to continue racism outside of the group. I can’t think of an example at this point of how it would do so but if you have one I’d be happy to discuss it. Now there are some Terms that are used that I would say do have the power to continue racism outside of the group.
I can say that there maybe some Us versus Them creating problematic behaviors but that is inherent in every group.

@EmpressPixie It is an interesting subject

In this country, you can be proud of being any color…...but white

@EmpressPixie I think race based humor is a great tool to diffuse any racial tension that exists within a group. Interestingly, I posted the question originally because I am in a racially-blended family. I am white, my wife is black, and our adopted children (bio nephew and niece) have Native American roots. I learned early on in our relationship that there are some strong words that have a stronger and deeper meaning (example: the “N” word) for some groups than for others.

@TaoSan I am proud to be white. I am not necessarily proud of everything other white folks have done.

@TaoSan Ahh.. but white isn’t a culture and the other colors are proud of their culture, not their color. And “white” people do have a culture it just seems many don’t connect to it anymore. ex: Irish roots, Italian Roots, etc… No one would fault somebody for being proud of that.

@TaoSan, I disagree. I am proud to be white. In saying so, this does NOTHING to promote hateful acts perpretrated upon others of any race not white, it is merely a statement. To assume otherwise says more about you than it does me, in my opinion.

@RedPowerLady Well put. I am proud of my Irish and Slovene heritage and culture.

@Yetanotheruser thank you and I think the Irish culture is beautiful, I would probably say the same for Slovene but I don’t know much about it

Great discussion, all. Keep it up. I have to go to bed. I’ll check back tomorrow. Lurve to all.

My ancestors were of white European descent. My Belgian ancestors did horrible things in the Congo, but that is not a reflection on me. My Irish/Scottish ancestors had their own problems, especially as immigrants, but still, I cannot be held accountable for the acts of my ancestors, as some (no one here, thankfully) would assume. All races in their history have done terrible things, even to their own kind, so no one race is better or worse than any other.

@evelyns_pet_zebra I would say that we can all agree that all cultures should be respected. Not all deeds. But all cultures.

makes me wonder,

can you really be proud of something you had no influence in whatsoever? As in skin color, nationality, being red haired

Just musing….

@TaoSan I think many people find pride in these things often as a response to challenges such as bigotry.

@RedPowerLady

okay, that makes sense…

@TaoSan I don’t think so.

Cut and pasted from above…

>>@EmpressPixie I believe with all my heart that no people have ever been more >>oppressed than the native inhabitants of the Americas.
>>And I am completely sympathetic to the notion of increased community identity due >>to persecution. I think that’s a normal and healthy response. It does, however, draw >>near a line.
>>A discussion I’ve had at great lengths a number of times is, to what extent is it >>rational to be “proud” of your heritage?

It’s interesting that you mention red hair—I was just reading something about gingism in the UK. Apparently the reaction to being ginger over there is quite different from the reaction over here (USA).

@theluckiest
I think the only people that would question how rational it is to be proud of your heritage are people that have no deep connection to their own heritage.
Why would someone not be proud of ceremony, religion, community, family, etc… Those are beautiful things to be proud of.
And also, as I’ve said, it helps to form communities as a support against things such as bigotry. People find pride in themselves in response to others telling them the are “bad” or “wrong”.

I see no way that this could be irrational.

In response to “is it rational to be proud of your heritage?”

@RedPowerLady

dunno, every time I “feel connected” to my being German someone cracks out a Nazi joke/reference.

The rationale you apply seems to be more suitable to keep racism alive as opposed to finally have it gone for good

TaoSan, pride comes in many forms. Cultural pride has many aspects, not just the physical attributes of a certain skin color, eye color, etc. Some Flemish painters created very incredible works of art. Certain tribes of Native Americans are reknowned for their bead work. Mexican food, well need I say more about that? Have you ever listened to real African drumming? Awesome, awesome music. Everyone has something to be proud of in their heritage, it gives our lives meaning. Everything matters.

That said, some people will either tear down others to feel superior, which is bigotry, or they will take crimes against their ancestors by other people’s ancestors, expecting reparation after the fact. Should I have to pay for the way whites treated blacks a hundred years ago? I say no, because none of my recent ancestors were slave-holders in America. Might as well fine me for the tiny bit of German in my bloodlines and give the money to the Jews and Gypsies. Or perhaps have me pay something to the Vietnamese for my itty bit of French ancestry, for when the French invaded (with disasterous results) Viet Nam.

Some of my ancestors were of the Lakota Sioux tribe. Do I think I should receive compensation for my Native American ancestors being stuffed on a reservation by the US Gov’t? No. The concept strikes me as rather ludicrous.

@RedPowerLady I think that appreciating tradition and ceremony, religion, etc for what it is is a great and beautiful thing.
I think being grateful for one’s family is (hopefully) right and proper

What I really was referring to was this idea that I should personally take pride in the work of others because they have a common ancestor, and not take pride in other work because those people didn’t have a common ancestor. To that I answer resoundingly “no”. I had nothing to do with the development of the republic mode of government, though I have Italian ancestors. I did not contribute to the deliciously refreshing recipe for Guinness Beer, though I have Irish ancestors.

“The rationale you apply seems to be more suitable to keep racism alive as opposed to finally have it gone for good”

How so??? —honestly curious—-

“every time I “feel connected” connected to my being German someone cracks out a Nazi joke/reference.”

Exactly the reason racist jokes shouldn’t be respected or told.

@TaoSan: Here, we have a huge Oktoberfest celebration that is all about German heritage. It’s important to celebrate the good, while remembering the bad.

Every culture has something they aren’t proud of somewhere in their past.

@RedPowerLady

you mentioned that this pride is rooted in the persecution by “others”. That just had a certain “unforgiving” ring to it

Please give me a break all, I am awkwardly clumsy when it comes to race questions

@evelyns_pet_zebra I LOVE the first part of your response.

I do want to say, now a lot of people I know will disagree with me because this board obviously has many people from the majority, that there is a reason reperations are asked for. And it isn’t because of acts committed hundreds of years ago. It is because of acts STILL committed today. At the Pine Ridge Reservation, the Lakota, exists the HIGHEST poverty rate in the nation. Oppression still exists today. People of Color do not have the same opportunities as people from the majority culture. Heck Native Americans aren’t even allowed religious freedom (yes this is very true). So that is what is still going on today. They were kidnapping kids and putting them in boarding schools that stripped them of their cultures up into the 70s. It’s not really about the past. Its about the present. And We ALL are responsible for making that change.

I wish nations and races could simply be gone, and people would just be people.

@TaoSan I rather enjoy the cultural hodgepodge of traditions that exist, and being able to slip into different “worlds” with a long drive or short flight.

I do wish that we could just be cool with our differences and stop killing each other over them…

@theluckiest

I very much agree.

@TaoSan

“I wish nations and races could simply be gone, and people would just be people.”

There is where we fundamentally disagree. Just bare with me one more minute.

This is the difference between the Mixing Pot and the Salad Bowl.

In the mixing pot we are all equal. There is not difference in any of us. We are all living together harmoniously with no races and nations.

In the Salad bowl we are all our own cultures. We are different races and different nations. We are lettuce, we are cucumbers. But we are all existing harmoniously. Acknowledging AND Accepting each others differences.

Oh and I don’t mean that people get together to be prideful and vengeful of others in response to persecution. What I mean is that it is a support group. Like therapy. Pride is more about culture than anything else.

My confusion over this whole “racism” issue goes down to a very basic level.

For example:

Why is it okay to make a “white guy can’t dance” joke, but “black guy has long shlong” joke is racist.

Forgive my simplistic approach, not my usual “level”, but as someone who never even grasped the concept of racism until I was 20, this is all confusing.

Could it be that many are just overly “sensitive”?

In my view, neither is okay.

Lurk, lurk.

Great discussion everyone!

@augstlan: I just added it to Andrew’s list of great questions.

@TaoSan I think RPL said it earlier… it really is in the ear of the receiver as to what is racist or not. I might just think someone is being overly sensitive when I say something like, “Goddamn drunk Irishmen”. That doesn’t change the fact that the person was legitimately offended. Am I going to be ultra-PC everywhere I go all the time? Hell no. Will I make a concerted effort not to be generally offensive? fo sho. I’m sure some people will be pissed at some point, and some people will laugh. Such is life. Can’t be pleasing everyone.

I happen to think some of the comedians that highlight race in their conversation are absolutely hilarious. Notably Woody Allen, Dave Chappelle, Mel Brooks… many more…
Some people find them horribly offensive. I’d tell them to chill out, but it wouldn’t do any good. So best to just live and let live.

@TaoSan
I think the answer to that question goes back to the hegemony (posted above). It is about power. When the people of majority make a racist joke it has power to affect people on instituional levels (i’ll repost below). But when a person of color makes a joke there is no power behind it. It is hurtful yes. And not okay. But it is different. Example reposted below:
Racist jokes being said at work. The person at the butt of the jokes comes into work and hears them. He feels very uncomfortable. He can’t tell his boss he is uncomfortable because he heard his boss laughing at them as well. The workers performance is affected. He starts doing poorly because he no longer feels comfortable at work. Its downhill from there. This is where the power comes in. The boss is very likely from the majority. This is MUCH less likely to happen to someone of the majority (mainly because most of our bosses are “white”).

Editing to add that I don’t think either is okay. Just showing how it is different in relation to our conversation.

@theluckiest Well Said

that would mean that racism or not racism depends on if someone feels bad due to it.

@TaoSan Pretty much. It is self-determined by the group affected.
We don’t have the right to put our beliefs on others so just because we think something is funny doesn’t mean it is. Each group has the right, and the intelligence, to determine for themselves what is racist about their own group. We should respect and honor the decisions they make about their own group.

okay i’m going to bed, I have a white elephant potluck bingo party i’m going to tomorrow, will check back in the morning. thank you all for the very civilized discussion. it is okay with me if we don’t all have the same views but I so far have enjoyed expressing mine and hearing yours

@RedPowerLady

Okay, I can follow that, and it makes sense.

But now the question arises, knowing human nature regardless of race, what if this self-determination becomes abuse?

I think you know where I’m going with this

@TaoSan Not really… it just means some people are more easily offended. I’d stand by my definition of racism as (something like, off the top of my head)

the idea that a person’s ethnic, racial, religious, gender, sexual orientation, etc etc somehow adds to or detracts from their basic humanity.
Racism is treating people from different groups in different ways, as cliche as that might seem, if you’re mean to everyone, I don’t think you’re a racist (just an asshole).

Jokes like, jews have big noses, or black people love watermelon, don’t comment on the humanity of the individuals or groups, and so aren’t racist (in my view). There is no value assigned to those positions (i.e. it’s not “better” or “worse” to have a big nose, or to like or hate watermelon).
Now saying something like Irish people are all raging violent alcoholics, or Muslims are anti-american mass murdering terrorists, those are clear examples of racism.

@theluckiest

I really like your reasoning, it sorta reflects how I feel on the issue.

This blog has some interesting takes on the subject, as does this blog.

I haven’t read all the comments so they may address this or show better rebuttals.

I would hope all jokes are exempted from all prejudice as long as it’s said only as a joke and is not aimed at incitement to hatred. I don’t take jokes serious if they’re about Wales of about gay/bi men.

@theluckiest (About stereotypes) Stereotypes are a component of racism – in fact, they played a significant role in justifying slavery & formal disenfranchisement – not just when they’re negative. This is because, by definition, they mean viewing someone merely as a part of a group, and often as a charicature of that whole group – which is dehumanizing, even if the stereotype is good.

By themselves, jokes about ethnic groups may not be such a problem… but in the context we’re in, of an unequal one where it’s very common for those in predominant groups to even deny there are significant inequalities (despite clear evidence that there are, and overall, minorities are much poorer than whites), they merely – if unintentionally – reinforce the false perception that minorities act more like a group rather than individuals (tho with some degree of a collective identity, and certain shared experiences based on their race) ... a perception which is very commonly used to justify those racial inequalities.

@RedPowerLady To tag onto what you said about thinking first about how a minority would feel if they heard the joke in question; Don’t just use, as your measuring stick, a minority most desensitized. First of all, some people internalize racism (or even sexism) – as in attitudes dehumanizing to themself. Secondly, being a minority, one tends to notice racism far more than white people tend to. Thus, both being more conscious of it, and dehumanized by it, it’s not unexpected that some of the defense mechanisms developed can include trying to tune it out.

Also, some of us have thicker skins than others, and if we constantly measure the acceptability of stuff by whether or not someone with an unusually thick skin is irritated by it, we end up creating an even more hostile environment to those who have trouble tolerating what none of us should tolerate.

@resmc You stated “one tends to notice racism far more than white people tend to”

I can attest to that. I am white, my wife is black, and we’ve been married for 20 years. Before we married, I considered myself to be pretty aware and sensitive as far as racial issues. When we were married less than a year, a co-worker was discussing his aversion to working with black people, using some of the stereotypes I’d heard all my life: “they” are lazy, “they” smell funny, and so on. I turned to him and said, “Chris, I had one of ‘them’ do something to me that’s going to affect me for the rest of my life.” then he took the bait Chris said, “What was that?” “She married me!” I replied!

I have never seen, before or since, such strong back-pedalling!
“Oh!” he sputtered, stuttered, and then muttered, ”‘They’re’ not all like that”

@Yetanotheruser

priceless :)

@Yetanotheuser Awesome ‘comeback’.

Do you know how to explain this tendency for those not directly affected by racism not to notice it to white people? Like, suggesting such, even being white myself, ends up often bringing up denial or even hostility… especially when i mention this to explain why racism may be more of a problem than we think.

I’m back! LOL
@theluckiest
Quote “Jokes like, jews have big noses, or black people love watermelon, don’t comment on the humanity of the individuals or groups, and so aren’t racist (in my view).”

This is very much not true in my opinion. Now if you are someone from one of these groups you would easily understand. But picture a fourth grader hearing one of these jokes from his parents. He goes to school and now starts telling the jewish kids they have big noses. His friends join in. NOW those jewish kids are being targets of racism. Further imagine when they come and tell their parents. Now their parents have to go to the school, talk with other people who probably tell racist jokes, and try and get their point across that this just isn’t okay. Their kid should not have to deal with this stuff while at school. BTW This happens ALL THE TIME.

@TaoSan

“What if the self-determination becomes abuse?”
In all honesty I have rarely seen this happen. With the White Power groups perhaps. Can you give an example?

@Myndecho
Quote “I don’t take jokes serious if they’re about Wales of about gay/bi men.”
This is Exactly the point i’m trying to get across in this thread.
They are very different because gays have experienced a HUGE history of oppression and are STILL being oppressed today. So these jokes have power to continue that oppression.

@resmc I see your reasoning. It makes sense to me. I am more trying to say that if someone would feel uncomfortable Telling the joke to someone of that race. If that is true then you know it is racist. You are so right that people have developed thick skins and there is internalized racism. And that just adds another component to this conversation.

@RedPowerLady I am someone from one of those groups ;)

@resmc @Yetanotheruser

Quote: ”“one tends to notice racism far more than white people tend to”
This is because of oppression. When people are beating you down and keeping you from achieving the same as the majority it is much more important that people of color or people in minority groups recognize racism. They have to be able to protect themselves (for their safety I mean look at all the people who have been murdered and still are because of their beliefs, i am thinking of one case in particular but can’t remember the name of it) & they have to be able to make sure they aren’t being held back from achieving promotions etc.. Oh and lets not forget protecting our children.

@theluckiest Me too. I’m wondering how much oppression you have seen. Because I see it everyday. And since I do I could never say that racist jokes aren’t racist no matter what format they fit. And I see directly how these jokes affect the lives of people in my community. And let me tell you it majorly sucks. Especially when the children get involved. I have taught children about stereotypes, children from my community and multicultural children. Each time I do we have a little rant session and let the kids talk about the times that others used stereotypes to hurt them. It would break your heart to hear little kids talk about these things. And YES racist jokes are part of that. It is very real to me.

@RedPowerLady I think it has a whole lot to do with where you live, perhaps. I live in a hugely integrated part of the country – not that racism doesn’t exist here, it’s just on a whole different scale from what you’re experiencing, perhaps. In Los Angeles it’s pretty damn difficult to get noticed for being different, and there is absolutely, demographically speaking, no clear “majority” of anything, or hegemony if you prefer.
In a way, these “racist” jokes are an effective way of gilding the community here and laughing at the trivialities that in the past have caused such pain and anguish. It’s a part of a process of moving past this belief in substantive differences. The joke is more that, can you believe some people think this is real, than it is whatever the pun is. So what if I have a big nose? So do plenty of Germans and Poles and French people. I am not black, but damn do I love me some watermelon. Who doesn’t?!
The joke is really at the expense of teh racist that thinks any of these things matter. Now if you say something that implies a greater deal of import/esteem/quality/value on one culture than another, I’ll take issue.

@theluckiest When jokes are used inside a group I can see how they are useful. IF you are part of the inside. Like what I said about “indian humor” above. I get that for sure! In fact we had a bit of discussion about it last night, perhaps you were gone for that bit. But this is all part of IF you are part of that in-group. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen someone come into a group and try using such things and it just isn’t appropriate until you know this person is on the same page as you. AND people who really don’t get it. People who are just learning about racism. People who use this as an excuse to be racist should not be engaging in such in-group activity. For the safety of others. And this in-group activity has no place in locations such as the schools because kids just don’t get it. No matter where you live.

The in-group humor definitely serves a purpose and I would argue right along side you that it is functional and useful and often necessary. But it is a fine line. I’ve seen teens for example use the humor, then get all riled up all of the sudden saying ‘you know what it’s true, this is f*cked up, man i’m going to go hurt somebody’ and go commit acts of violence.

I guess I don’t really believe in the “in-group” mentality- not that I don’t believe in it, I just don’t subscribe to it, ever, anywhere. I’m raised in a split Jewish/Catholic home, and both communities are notorious for being cloistered and exclusive. However, this was never my experience of either community. Both communities now actively encourage outside participation, involvement, cooperation, collaboration. And the same is true for every group I identify with. There is no exclusivity. For me this helps to create that atmosphere of tolerance, maybe respect, and once in a while, love, for other cultures.
Everyone with an open mind and open heart is welcome into any community I’d ever associate with, be it religious, ethnic, social, political or otherwise. Because I think, that when you get inside and you see what it’s all about, you will find it’s shockingly similar (in intent, if not design) to the cultures you are used to and comfortable with.

I Agree. We always offer anyone with a good heart to be part of the group.

I mean exclusively when it comes to saying things could be determined racist. I do not think it is appropriate to go up to say a Chinese man I don’t know and say hey dude listen to this joke…. Isn’t that messed up man?? Also in some instances it really takes part of being in the group to get why the joke is offensive. All I’m saying is that it is not an excuse for people to use racist jokes. Someone who barely understands racism shouldn’t read this post and think it is okay now to go around telling racist jokes because it somehow helps. Not true.

Here is an example of what I mean.
If a random person, obviously Native American (my ethnicity) comes up to me and starts doing the fake war hoop as some kinda joke I would be 100% offended. I don’t know this person. I am thinking “what the freaking heck is going on, this is so rude, others will see him and think this is funny stuff and it isn’t”.
If my buddy on the other hand comes up to me and does the same thing. I think “man that is messed up”. And then we start talking about how messed up it is. Or we have a good laugh at people who do that joke and think it’s funny (but it’s not funny). Then it is useful.

I’d agree that you shouldn’t walk up to a stranger and drop a potentially offensive joke of any kind.
But I think even in a group of comfortable acquaintances, a light-hearted acknowledgment of someone’s background isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It’s definitely sensitive and you have to be careful, but for example I’m out with my roommate the other night and we go way back. We’re meeting up with some of his friends. We’ve all been talking for a couple minutes now and my roommate says something like, alright I’m gonna buy this round so my Jew roommate can feel comfortable, and I’ll respond by saying something like, alright bigshot just don’t go pawning your lawnmower (he’s hispanic). Hopefully in this short and rude exchange we’ve made it clear to the people around us we’re absolutely comfortable with each other and with ourselves and we can play around

I’m sorry I’m talking too much now. But saying this for example ”“Jokes like, jews have big noses, or black people love watermelon, don’t comment on the humanity of the individuals or groups, and so aren’t racist (in my view).””
I just don’t think that’s appropriate. In fact I think that statement is very wrong. There is no way ever that statement would be correct to me.
What might be correct is saying that such jokes can serve a purpose when used appropriately within the community to spark conversation about such things.

@theluckiest It may be a good in-group thing then but you also have to consider now that you’ve opened up the door for inappropriate jokes from his friends. What if these guys who barely know you start telling every Jewish joke they know?

@RedPowerLady What if they do? I laugh, if they’re at all clever ones I haven’t heard before…

Oh and here is the thing. These jokes are ALWAYS offensive. We just build up tough skin and use them to suite our purposes. But the fact that they are offensive is never gone. We can use that offensiveness to spark a discussion or to laugh off how messed up it is. But it is still offensive.

@theluckiest And I’m sure the Jewish family at the next table would not appreciate that. I sure don’t want to go into a bar and here someone telling every Indian joke they’ve ever heard. I’d get pissed. It’s not just about you. You have to consider the bigger effects (i.e. the other people hearing the jokes).

@RedPowerLady I really don’t find them offensive. I don’t know how being accused of eating matzoh is offensive.

Most Jews I know love Jew-jokes. Most Catholics I know love Catholic jokes. Same is true for virtually every demographic of my friends. Maybe it’s just the people I am attracted to.
Words only have power you ascribe to them- at least in this “post-hegemonic” (I don’t really like the terminology) community in LA. If I choose to get offended at a joke that really isn’t insulting me, I’ve just lost the battle against racism, by making race an issue.

@theluckiest Or better yet what if the friends from the bar now think the jokes are SO funny because the Jewish guy laughed at them. They go home and tell their wife and kids. The kids go to school and tell all their friends. How safe is it then for the Jewish kids in the class?

@RedPowerLady Completely safe. We all have to be more culturally aware. Making race taboo leads to “clanism” leads to violence.
If no one’s race is off-limits, that’s the ideal.

@theluckiest Exactly. In-group. Jewish people love Jewish jokes. Catholic people love Catholic jokes.

It is Certainly not true that words only have power if you ascribe it to them. That is NOT how oppression works. And we are certainly not in a post-hegomonic state.

I am in a post-hegemonic state. I’m from a State that is 46% hispanic, and my country has a minority president.

Race isn’t taboo. Racism is taboo. You don’t poke fun at other races. That is not okay. Especially for children who have no capacity to understand the implications. It isn’t safe. Maybe you don’t know anyone who has got stabbed just for being Jewish?? Because I know people killed just for being Native.

@theluckiest Population has less to do with disenfranchisement than one might suspect. Women make up at least half the population, yet that didn’t stop centuries of oppression, which to some extent continue today. It’s about power per individual, and of the group, not number of individuals in the group.

Also, having a person of a minority group in power, tho a step forward (at least in states that weren’t originally entirely populated by a certain minority), doesn’t do much to diminish the concentration of the same minorities at the bottom rungs of our various social hierarchies, unfortunately. It’s actually sometimes used as a way to ignore the racism that keeps them there.

That is NOT post-hegomonic. I’m sorry that is just too funny. It would be post hegomonic if a Hispanic was mayor and govenor and senator. Are they?? NO. It would be post-hegomonic if the hispanic people had jobs that paid more than minimum wage. It would post-hegomonic if people weren’t telling the hispanics they are dirty immigrants who need to go back to their country. It would be post hegomonic if school was taught in Spanish. Hegemony is about POWER not numbers. And hispanics do not have the POWER no matter how populated they are in that state.

I have a hispanic mayor too, an immigrant Governor, and a black president.

@resmc Thank you. Very True!

@theluckiest And what about all the other aspects I just said?? You can’t ignore those. And count the number of “white” Senators in relation to those of color.

I’m not sure of the demographic breakdown of the state legislature- I do know that black people are “overrepresented” in CA government, and in government around the country. That is, they account for more than (approx) 10% of elected politicians.

The bottom line for me is- race is an issue if your community makes it an issue. We’re not immune to bigotry here in CA, but we’re certainly far advanced past what you can probably comprehend. Read (on this topic, and nothing else) Larry Elder. Black, super-conservative pundit.

@resmc You’re right that it’s more about power than numbers. A minority of white people held a majority of blacks in slavery for generations. That isn’t the case today. Income disparity is down. Educational disparity is down. Fixed? No. Closer? By a lot. Look at UCLA/USC/LMU demographic breakdown. It’s representative of the communities they are in. Look at the doctors, teachers, lawyers breakdown in LA. It’s roughly representative, especially within the last 2 generations. This is not the same world as the Dakotas or Missouri or other more homogeneous parts of the country.

How can black people be “overrepresented”. Isn’t the idea that black people are overrepresented just ludicrous?? Why wouldn’t you say that White people are overrepresented?? They make up more than 50% of elected politicians. Are you kidding me????

Racism is an issue because it is an issue. We don’t choose to have people of color killed. We don’t choose to have lower wage jobs. The people on Pine Ridge reservation have the Highest poverty rate in the Nation. They don’t choose that. You can’t deny racism. By doing so you are being oppressive. Perahps you should learn a bit more about Oppression. The only people that can fix it are the people in power. And they, like you, don’t think it’s a problem. Thus keeping it around, keeping people of color down and in poverty and lower wage jobs becasue they don’t want to address it.

@RedPowerLady I put it in quotes for a reason, RPL ;)
It does make sense in it’s context- it’s context is just a bit far fetched. I don’t think equality means, we elect 9% jewish politicians because 9% of the population is jewish. I think equality means that a person, regardless of background, is given the same opportunities as anyone from any other background. In LA, you can literally see this happening

[I was typing this before I responded with the above] Obviously, I need to say, the reservation system is flawed from it’s inception, a corrupt compensation for a corrupt policy, and I am unfamiliar with the lasting damage I am sure has been done in those communities. I’m speaking on behalf of the big, “world-cities” in this country. Having gone to college in Eastern Washington, I’ve seen the differences a few hundred miles can make. This country’s view of race is vastly different from region to region.

I promise you, RPL, if you moved to LA or NYC or Chicago tomorrow, no one would blink at you because of your ethnic identity.

@theluckiest By denying that there is racism in big cities you are continuing oppression. We may be making progress. I mean we have a Black President. That is progress! But racism exists. And not by choice. And it definitely exists in LA. And so does Oppression. In fact how many immigrant farm workers work in LA?? That is an example of Oppression and Racism still existing in LA.

That is simply not true. I have friends that live in NYC right now. And I have a friend that travels to LA to see her family every few months.

Now LA still has areas of “entrenched poverty”, often times those areas are predominately black (but not always). This is leftover institutionalized racism. However I firmly believe that is more a matter of classism than racism, as there are too many instances of hugely successful African Americans. If you can physically move out of those communities, that is usually the first step in breaking the chain.

@theluckiest
Wait I just told my husband what you said about moving to a big city and he laughed so hard.

@RedPowerLady It’s unfortunate you’ve lost the tone of respect and appreciation you were so gently fostering earlier.

@RedPowerLady Try it and tell me there’s not a world of difference. I’ve lived in both communities. Raised and now working in one, attended undergrad school in a rural, homogeneous community.

@theluckiest I think you should look into the term Oppression.
I’ve got to tell you, you are right, I am getting personally offended now. I just think it is so silly to say that Racism doesn’t exist in the big cities. Or that we make it exist. I apologize if I’ve been rude. But let me tell you I am offended. And as you may have found out I do not get offended easily. Look at the discussion we’ve had so far, no offense taken until now.

@RedPowerLady I never said it didn’t exist- I said it exists on a dramatically different scale.

@RedPowerLady People don’t get killed for their racial identity in LA as you seem to suggest happens in your community. It happens, and once is a thousand times too much, but it’s not the dominating social concern. Focusing on differences between economic classes (which are overly stratified by race) is more productive for this urban environment.

@theluckiest Have you looked up Hate Crimes + Los Angeles. It does exist. All the time they happen. Even more so than where I live because the population is bigger and more condensed. And the economic classes are overly stratified by race because of racism and oppression. These thing don’t exist independently.

@RedPowerLady I’m well aware of what the word “oppression” means and I come from a minority group and have never really experienced it in Los Angeles. In Spokane, maybe I did, I’m not sure. But in the communities I am engaged in in Los Angeles- that is, the academic institutions, various religious communities, surfing/sailing, music, art… it’s never been an issue.

I am a board member for SCIC, and the LA Commission on Human Relations. I’ve compiled a lot of the data you might be looking at.

**added to my post before last
It’s never been an issue… for me, or my friends that range almost every ethinic group you could think of, including black, mexican, and both kinds of “indian”

@theluckiest See now I am even more upset that you are in a position of power and are denying that this is a problem. This is exactly why racism still exists. Why hate crimes still exist. This is hegemony at work. You may just be avoiding the areas where people are shot because of their color. What about this?
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/03/22/18580559.php
Or the AROC incident?

@theluckiest See it is about the bigger picture. Not about if it is a problem for you. Maybe you are just a really nice person and have great friends. But it does happen.

What you might not realize is the population of CA – 40million. If just a fraction of 1% of people are racist, and a fraction of 1% of those people are criminals, you have problems. If you have 90% of people from some geographical areas unable to register for advanced placement courses at high schools, or pay for college, you have a much bigger problem. Oakland (not Los Angeles – but about 400 miles from it) is suffering hugely right now. You’ll remember another incident where an unarmed black man was shot in the BART by an officer. Do you think some crack about watermelon or fried chicken is what spurred that violence- or even contributed to it? I do not.

I would say that I’m not denying the problem- I’m addressing it in the most effective way I think I can. I don’t think censoring or banning jokes that relate a mexican baptism to a bean dip would lessen hate or violence anywhere in the world. I think getting extremely defensive after such a comment would do more damage than the comment itself—at least in my community.

But these racist jokes do hasten violence. It happens all the time. Seriously all the time. I was just talking to a buddy from Chicago about this. He was talking about how people just don’t say racist jokes out loud because if someone overheard them they’d get beat up or worse. And trust me it’s not only 1% of people who are racist.

@theluckiest But inequality is still a huge force shaping people’s lives. To say just because we’ve improved compared to historical conditions and focus merely on that is to prevent us from extending equal opportunities to everyone. Which currently is not what many face. Class plays a significant role here, though it often is tangled up with the other factor of racism and sexism.

Having minorities in positions of status still does not negate the vastly uneven playing field many or even most minorities are born to. There’s also many pressures on them, aside from racist attitudes, to detach themselves from their collective identity when doing so brings up uncomfortable realities about our current society.

I believe you are right, but I’m saying when you have 40 million people living near each other, there are going to be problems. Race, like religion, is simply a convenient boundary to use for power-projection. People attribute so much violence in the world to religion, I think wrongly. Some people (a small percentage) are just damaged, mean people that seek to harm others, and they’ll use whatever discrimination they can find to do so. If it isn’t race, it’ll be religion, if it isn’t religion, it’ll be gender… etc etc. Of course there are steps that can be, have been and need to be taken to reduce crimes in ALL of these categories. Censoring humor isn’t one of them.

In the example you provide above, I find wrongdoing clearly with the person that beat up the commentator. Even if the joke was awful and offensive. Violence as a response is unacceptable.

Is Dave Chappelle a racist?

@resmc You are very well spoken. Thank you. I agree. And I am too upset right now I suppose to sound so well spoken myself.

@resmc It’s about tactic from here, is where we disagree (or at least, where I disagree with RPL)

I think you’re not disagreeing with anything I’ve said (correct me if I’m wrong). I’ve made several comments above about entrenched poverty – and how social classes still are largely stratified by race – but race isn’t, in my opinion, what determines the oppression there. It’s much more about geography and circumstance. A Native American person born in Beverly Hills will have every opportunity imaginable, whereas a hispanic born in compton is going to have a lot more work to do.

@theluckiest Okay so hubby is getting mad at me for spending so much time on this and I’ve got to go to bingo soon, lol. I would propose a project for you so you can see what I mean. Of course I understand you probably won’t do it or have the time to do it. But just keep it in mind if the opportunity ever arises. A nice thing for you to do is go to the grade schools and host a stereotypes workshop. And ask the kids to tell you their stories, esp. about racist jokes. Then go to the high school, especially one in the ghetto and do the same thing. Don’t forget to task the teens how many times they’ve hurt someone for doing/saying racist things. You will see what I mean. It’d be a good project for you. And it’ll be good for the kids too.

I think you are very friendly, courteous, and obviously intelligent. I have appreciated this conversation quite a bit. I feel like we have come to a stand still. And I am just honestly saddened that someone else doesn’t get it.

BTW a Native born in Beverly Hills would NOT Have the same opportunities as a White person born in Beverly Hills. They still wouldn’t have religious freedom for example.

I am done and out of this conversation because I’m starting to take it too personally, thank you for the opportunity everyone and look forward to chatting with you again on other questions

@RedPowerLady I won’t bother responding to the BTW here so you can go on your way, let it be known I’m curious as to why you think that’s the case.

I will host that workshop, video tape it, and show it to you. Probably not until next winter.

@RedPowerLady It’s messed up how emotionally draining it is for ‘minorities’ to discuss this sorta thing sometimes, yet those with the privilege to be able to free from the worst of that [emotional] toll have the default option to ignore the opportunity to enjoy that (unnatural) freedom with little thought.

You’re plenty well spoken yourself, RedPowerLadyand i’m so glad you’re on here (fluther). Yet, i understand your decision to leave the stress this thread brings – it’s always been hard for me to be honest about why i drift away from threads that have that effect on me, so props to you!

Also, there’s little that can be said about confronting the huge gulfs in experience and perception between those benefiting from inequality (however unintentionally or subconsciously, in most) and those who live daily with the effects it. It’s very painful, and hard to think straight, nevermind to envision a way beyond those gulfs/barriers/inequalities… so all i can offer, if it would help at all, is a * hug *

I just want to poke my head in for a second about Chicago, as it was mentioned by name. Chicago, as a city, has historically been so segregated that they actually had to invent a new word to describe it called hyper-segregation. Even today, the citizens remain segregated: white folks live in the north, black in the south. When I moved here everyone I knew or met told me: well, you can really only live in the north part of the city.

So, keeping that in mind, there is a super trendy part of town called Lincoln Park. It’s one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the city. In Lincoln Park there is a hot dog stand that is open until 5am on the weekends called the Weiner Circle. For a very interesting perspective on modern racism in Chicago, you can look up videos about it on YouTube, but I will summarize what they say here.

At the Weiner Circle, tradition has arisen that around closing time, bar hoppers can hit up the WC for greasy, delicious food. The stand is best known for rudeness. Those behind the counter are rude to the patrons, the patrons are rude back. However, if you’ve seen the stand on a Saturday night, you know that it is roughly five or six working the stand against a large crowd of hungry, drunk Lincoln Park residents and visitors. The stand workers are generally black. The partrons are by and large white.

Some people say it isn’t a racism issue because the rude responses were started by one of the (white) owners. However, once it became tradition at the place, it seems like the rudeness on both sides took off. Others view it as something more insidious—a kind of socially acceptable chance to be racist. Example: the chocolate shake. There is no chocolate milkshake—or any other milkshake—on the menu. But patrons occasionally begin to demand a “chocolate shake”. This is one of the staff members shaking their breasts.

The Weiner’s Circle is practically a Chicago institution, yet, it has ominous and racist undertones.

ALL of this is from my memory of watching a special on the Weiner’s Circle in YouTube (it is a clip of This American Life). I’ve found it here in case you’d like to see it. I highly, I highly recommend it.

@RedPowerLady I understand about the taking kids from reservations and putting them in boarding schools, etc. I was sending $$$ to a place that claimed to be helping NA kids get an education, but it was also teaching them all about Christianity in a way I found repulsive. Sounded too much like the whole missionary thing where you got help (food, shelter, etc) but only after conversion. That’s coercion of the worst sort, in my opinion.