If Adam and Eve were unable to judge right from wrong before eating from the tree, why were they punished?

they were told directly by God (well, Adam was told directly and Eve had knowledge of it), not to eat from the tree. When Eve gave the fruit to Adam, and he ate it, they were directly disobeying what God had told them to do.

they didn’t have to sit around and ponder if they should or not, they had a clear answer already, and disregarded it.

If they could not tell the difference from good and evil, how could they know the difference between good advice and evil advice?

You could also argue that it was always God’s design for this to happen, as God is all knowing, etc. In which case, it was a simple test that man failed pretty promptly.

free agency…how might free agency enter into a consideration of this q?

@emilia_eclaire btw, i think your response might imply something sinister about God’s participation in this story

It’s called “Suspension of Beliefs”.

Meaning that you temporarily and willingly forgive/forget irregularities in sense to be earnestly entertained.

Of course, if God is truly omnipotent and omniscient, then he knew that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree. The punishment that was then meted out not only to them, but to every living thing, hardly is the act of a beneficent God. So the Christian god is either not omnipotent and omniscient, or not benevolent- take your pick.

@crisw just because God can know everything, doesn’t mean He chooses to know everything. If He did, then why create beings with free will?

@eponymoushipster
Um…how would that work exactly, other than as a rationalization?

@crisw what do you mean?

@eponymoushipster

How can you choose not to know something without knowing what it is you choose not to know?

And where is there any support for this idea that the Christian God has selective attention?

Again, it sounds like a rationalization to me.

@crisw how do you not choose to listen to a certain radio station?
and, too, it stands to reason that, in the Bible, there are many instances where God warned His people about what would happen if they disobeyed. Further, it says God is love. Would a God, whose essence is love, warn people about a wrong course if He knew they’d disobey?

@eponymoushipster The word “omniscient” means that God does know everything.

So you’re saying that God simply decides what he is going to know and what he isn’t going to know? That doesn’t make any sense. If God is omniscient and created everything, he would have to have known exactly what was going to happen before he even created Adam and Eve.

@avalmez

Sinister perhaps, but the God of the Old Testament is not as kind and benevolent as the God of the New Testament, what with the wiping out entire cities and killing all the pagans and the punishing his people over and over and over. 40 years in the desert and only 3 of Jews who left Egypt actually got to see the Holy Land. I mean really! And how does the wisest man in the world not have the foresight NOT to marry 700 women?!

@emilia_eclaire in both cases, those things happened because of disobedience and not trusting in God.

in the case of the israelites, it was because they failed to rely on God for protection, and feared those in Canaan.

in Solomon’s case, he was told not to take many wives, and did just that. and they led him to worse other gods.

thusly, it was not God’s fault. they disobeyed, as did adam and eve.

@Ivan where does it say He literally knows everything? If He’s all-powerful, isn’t it reasonable to assume He can choose what He wants to do with His power? besides that, God doesn’t want robots serving Him – we were given free will. He wants worship out of love, not fear or obligation.

@eponymoushipster

This is true, but my point is that the old Testament is all people getting eaten by dogs and turning to salt and getting swallowed by whales, while in the New Testament, he doesn’t dole out any punishments. I guess he mellowed out after he had kids.

@emilia_eclaire that’s funny, but Jesus existed before the Old Testament was even written.

the circumstances surrounding worship were different, to say the least. israelites were born into a covenant with God, whereas christianity required steps be taken by an individual.

Adam was created as a slave (to tend the garden). Slaves are supposed to obey. Good slaves get to stay in the house (i.e. the garden). Bad slaves have to go out and work in the fields.

The story is also a pretty standard “just-so” myth. In other Mesopotamian myths, the Gods invent miscarriages and birth pangs as a means of population control, because they get pissed off when the humans overpopulate. The Hebrews, unlike the Babylonians, did not have problems with overpopulation (they actually had the opposite problem as a wandering tribe of uncivilized savages), so they needed some other “just-so” explanation for miscarriages, birth pangs, and general hardships in life. “Disobeying Yahweh is bad” is pretty much the moral of the Old Testament, and it’s co-opted here as the explanation for birth pangs, toiling in fields, and miscarriages—it’s divine punishment for disobedience.

@emilia_eclaire, actually, the god of the New Testament doles out plenty of vicious and sadistic punishment in Revelation. And Jesus, for all his peace-and-love hippie ways, constantly threatens his audience with hellfire and torture in his parables.

@Qingu where’s the mention of hellfire by Jesus?

@eponymoushipster, oh, it’s metaphorical hellfire, the “wailing and gnashing of teeth” threatened against anyone who doesn’t listen to his little cult. In his parables, he casts God as a slavemaster and humans as slaves. If the slaves are obedient than God will reward them when he gets back to the house. If they’re disobedient—i.e. if they don’t follow Jesus’ little cult—then they will be killed and/or tortured.

But you are correct. Much of the idea of “hellfire” is later Christian invention, though there is a nice lake of fire in Revelation.

@Qingu

According to most, those punishments have yet to be doled out.

@eponymoushipster

if you’re born into a covenant with someone who set that covenant into motion at the beginning of time…well what kind of arrangement is that exactly?

@eponymoushipster or anyone else-

So explain to me, then, exactly why every animal in the world suffers because of Adam’s “sin”? The animals don’t have free will, they do not choose to engage in “sinful behavior,” yet they suffer enormously. Again, if you believe that your God is a benevolent God, how do you explain this?

@Qingu that lake is representative of total destruction. It says Satan will be thrown in it – why would he continue to keep Satan alive if he was deserving of destruction? He wouldn’t. And a God of love wouldn’t torture people forever for sins committed during a relatively brief period.

@crisw God doesn’t cause that suffering, simply put. Satan claimed that people could rule themselves better, in the Garden of Eden. This all is proof that Satan’s claim was false. People bring this upon themselves because of sinful tendencies and ignoring what God says should be done, or how to act.

@emilia_eclaire, not according to the post-millenialists (my personal favorite breed of Christian).

Also, Revelation was clearly meant to be understood as imminent when it was written. It was obviously talking about Rome, and was understood by its audience to refer to Rome. Jesus promised his followers that they would see the kingdom of heaven “within this generation.” So these texts—as interpreted by their authors and their audience—very likely referred to an imminent, incredibly violent destruction.

@eponymoushipster -

“in the Bible, there are many instances where God warned His people about what would happen if they disobeyed.”

So, being omniscient, he knew they would disobey. Then-surprise!- they did. Then he tortured and killed them- even the babies and livestock who could not have made a rational choice. Nice.

“Further, it says God is love. Would a God, whose essence is love, warn people about a wrong course if He knew they’d disobey?

Um, that is the whole point. Christians are the ones claiming they worship a benevolent and omniscient God. As I am not a Christian, and it appears you may be, perhaps you can answer this one?

@eponymoushipster
“People bring this upon themselves because of sinful tendencies”

Again, what about the animals?

@eponymoushipster, you are talking about Yahweh, correct? The God of the Bible? Because Yahweh not only tortures people for their sins but takes pleasure in torturing them. (Deuteronomy 28:63)

Also, have you read Revelation? It’s a torture-fest.

@eponymoushipster you jest i’m sure. in any case, if He didn’t reek heck on New Testament characters, He certainly planned to reek heck on us latter day folks. Ever read Revelations?

@emilia_eclaire right on sister!

@boots i think you mean “Suspension of disbelief”

@crisw omniscience can enable the omnipotent to the greatest malevolence

@eponymoushipster it’s called hiding your head in a hole

And more generally, who’s to say the God of the Old Testament is the God of Christians? Sounds exclusive esp. being that Christiand didnt exist then.

Also, the “God” of the Bible is humankinds characterization and understanding of God, which does not mean God is “God”, anymore so than the Buddha is the “Buddha” that Taoism and “fundamentalist” Buddhists both agree upon

@crisw – well, that’s fine if you’re not, but I’m saying: He gave them a choice. He said, if you do this, you’ll do alright. If you do the other, you’ll have problems. Pretty simple.

He gave them a choice. Sometimes they chose properly, sometimes (and ultimately) not.

and the animals are not the same as people. there was no promise anywhere that the animals would live forever, unlike humans.

@Qingu look at verse 58 (sorry, i have a russian bible, i dunno english wording): “If you will not carefully follow all the words of the Law, written in this book, and fear the name of your God”.

as regards Revelaton, i’ve read it several times. Can you give me an example?

@avalmez Tomato, tomahto…

@avalmez
“omniscience can enable the omnipotent to the greatest malevolence”

Can you explain what this is supposed to mean?

@crisw

In Genesis, it pretty much indicates that animals were made for the benefit of man, even though they came first. Adam got to name them and all. There’s no real explanation given as to why all the cute little critters had to die like stupid, sinful man, but animal rights aren’t often taken into consideration like, ever in the Old Testament/ Bible.

The question presupposes an Adam and an Eve which is mythology.

@boots no, tomato, banana…not the same things

@eponymoushipster, not sure how your response supports your assertion that your allegedly loving god is too much of a sweetheart to brutally torture people. You are referring to a chapter where God “takes delight” in inflicting sinners with boils, selling them into slavery, striking them blind, and forcing them to eat the flesh of their own children and the “afterbirth” of their miscarriages.

As for Revelation, the locust-women with the sting that tortures you for prolonged periods of time come to mind.

@eponymoushipster
@emilia_eclaire

I didn’t ask about living forever or being killed. I asked about suffering. Why do animals suffer? They commit no “sins”, do not have free will, and are not “rewarded with heaven.” So why?

@eponymoushipster, do you believe Yahweh gave Pharaoh a choice when he repeatedly “hardened his heart”?

@avalmez I agree that belief and disbelief aren’t the same thing. If you put “Suspension” before them and put it in the same context, they’ll mean pretty much the same thing.

@avalmez Also, I may have been wrong with the word usage, but the sentiments apply.

@crisw omnipotence (all powerful) does not include omniscience (all knowing)..being all knowing and all powerful allows anticipation to reek the great harm

@Benny

The question presupposes an Adam and an Eve which is mythology.”

Yeah, but I think what’s happening is that various people are trying to demonstrate exactly why it’s mythology- and not particularly coherent mythology at that.

@boots gotcha boots, just wanted to make you aware for future ref

@avalmez
“omnipotence (all powerful) does not include omniscience (all knowing)..being all knowing and all powerful allows anticipation to reek the great harm”

I am sorry, I still don’t know what this is supposed to mean.

if you know what is going to happen and you are all powerful then you can act in ways that result in the greatest harm…(or greatest good, like a God perhaps?) Imagine that Hitler knew every move the allies might take and that he had unlimited power to react to those future events. how do you think he would have used his advance knowledge of such events?

@avalmez

It seems to me that most Christians believe that God is omniscient. It appears that belief that he is not is a fairly recent rationalization to try an explain away the problem of evil.

@avalmez

So you are saying that God knew what would happen? Then, of course, since he is all-powerful, he could have chosen to prevent these acts. So, again- either he is not all-powerful, or he is not good.

@crisw, eh. OT Yahweh is pretty obviously not omniscient. He was just another pagan deity who couldn’t keep track of what his humans were doing, messed up creation and had to press the restart button, and couldn’t win a fight against a tribe with iron chariots.

Yahweh only became omniscient when the Hebrews met the Greeks and learned about philosophy.

or he gave humans free agency and allows events to unfold according to their acts over which he choses not to impose his power…isn’t that the greatest form of omnipotence and omniscience?

@Qingu

Of course. I am just trying to play along with the crowd…see my response to Benny :>D

@avalmez
“isn’t that the greatest form of omnipotence and omniscience?”
No. And it certainly is not the greatest good., It means that God deliberately allows acts that cause suffering, even to beings that could not have committed any “sin”- see my questions about animal suffering above.

@crisw i get what your saying. but, as i wrote above, i am not a creationist. But, I believe in a Creator. That said, there must be a purpose to the life of every living being. And, if you can accept that much, what purpose would it serve for the Creator to lead living beings to their purpose? Why should a Creator intervene in the doings of living things? The Creator put things in motion…it’s up to the rest of us to realize the Creator’s purpose. And if we fail and suffer the results, that’s our doing not the Creator’s.

Said another way, to the victors goes the victory

@avalmez

Again, what about animals? Why do they suffer? I hate repeating myself…

Survival of the fittest!

The only answer i can come up wth where animals are concerned is that life is not a single event for any of us and realiizing the Creators purpose entails a cycle of life experiences in many forms. Both backward and forward in time, and in form. Strange to “hear” me say that because I am not a Buddist…just a lone guy trying to rationlize the unfathomable

@avalmez

“Survival of the fittest” is not a theological term. Again, it seems more a rationalization than anything that can actually be supported by any Christian doctrine.

Chrstian doctrine, Jewish, Taoism…none can be presumed to know the answer. Not exactly an agnostic view either

@avalmez

I think the problem here is that many of those who espouse Christianity as true don’t have any real answer for any of these hard questions- just rationalizations. Rather than questioning whether it’s the belief system itself that is in error, they develop ever more and more rationalizations to explain away the inconsistencies and outright indefensible acts so that they can go on believing what they want to believe.

damn…just lost my response…short answer…it’s not a Christan thing anymore than a Jewish or Buddhist thing…overtime, spiritual people have gleaned and come to understand various aspects of the ultimate truth.

Others have latched on to various discoveries of these exceptionally spiritual discoverers and used them in both in positive and negative ways, both for the benefit and harm of humanity at large.

And, along the way, there have been those who claimed spiritual discovery, and used them to the great harm of humanity. IMHO, Hitler, Jim Jones, Bin Laden, etc.

Ultimately, we’re all just fish swimming in a fish bowl (he, he! sorry about but i hope you get my meaning). let’s just all get along!

@avalmez
“let’s just all get along!”

That’s what I mean when I say that I don’t care what people believe as long as they don’t use their beliefs to harm others. Those who seek to ban gay marriage, abortion, the teaching of evolution, etc. and who seek to pass legislation like parental notification laws are doing a grave harm. They are the ones I really have a beef with.

i care very much about what other people believe because they my have something important t teach me. tha said, like yourself, i don’t expect that their beliefs are imposed upon me, even as when i reject other’s beliefs, i will respect them. good exchange! nite!