How would you describe "eternity" to someone?

Imagine being tied to a chair, in front of a television, being forced to watch nothing but old “I Love Lucy” reruns.

On second thought, maybe that would be more like HELL?

When all the black dwarfs have cooled down to 1 Kelvin.

Well a good way that helped me understand time was how long man has existed on Earth. If you took a clock, and set it up so that ONE DAY was the existence of JUST EARTH, mankind (all 12,000+ years of it) has existed for the last 30 or so seconds of the day.

Now imagine that that whole day, isn’t even close to the eternity of existence.

Me: Alright son, I want you to sit here.
[Places notebook in front of him.]
Me: Alright, take that pen there and write a 1.
Me: Ok, now put a zero behind the 1. What does that give you?
Son: 10.
Me: Good – now put another zero behind that one.
Me: Ok, I’ll be back in 5 minutes. I want you to keep writing zeros while I’m gone.

[When I return…]
Son: My hand is tired…
Me: What do we have here? What number is this?
Son: I don’t know. A googolplex?
Me: Is it the biggest it can be?
Son: No.
Me: Why?
Son: Because I can put more zeros.
Me: So when will it be it’s biggest?
[My son ponders, and then responds.]
Son: It can’t.
Me: Why?
Son: Because I can always add another zero.
Me: Even if you run out of paper?
Son: The paper doesn’t matter – it’s the number itself – it will keep going.
Me: That’s right. That’s the concept of infinity or eternity.

Eternity is the circle of life.

The ultimate despair.

We can’t wrap our minds around it. I’m no better qualified to describe it to someone else than someone else is to describe it to me.

But we do have the useful Hindu concept of a kalpa (disambiguation: time unit). The way it was originally explained to me was somthing like this: if a (certain) bird carrying a piece of silk were to draw the silk across the top of a (certain Himalayan) mountain once every thousand years, the time it would take to wear the mountain down to nothing is the length of one kalpa. The link gives several other analogies.

The Legend of the Beast goes back a long time…before any of us could even pick up a baseball, back to a place called Myrtle’s acres. It all started, um, about 20 years ago. Thieves kept stealing stuff from Myrtle’s acres junkyard. So Mr. Myrtle the guy who ran the place, got him this new pup from the dogpound. He fed him whole sides of beef and turned the pup loose in the junkyard, and the pup was greatful. And so, after a few weeks the pup grew into the Beast, and he grew big and he grew mean. So he could protect the junkyard with only one thing on his mind KILL EVERYONE THAT BROKE IN. And he did, and he liked it. The Police started getting phone calls reporting the missing thieves, the one’s the beast had killed. It added up to about 120..173 guys. The beast was to good at his job. My grandfather, Squidman Paladoris was police chief back then, and he ordered Mr. Myrtle to turn his backyard into a fortress and keep the beast chained up under the house so he couldn’t get out to eat children and stuff. Because Mr. Myrtle asked until how long he had to keep the Beast chained up, he (Paladoris) said until ‘Forever’, ‘Forever’, ‘Forever’. And so there he sits till jimmey the time he can break free, ‘til jimmy the time he can get loose and run free again. Ham:Anything that goes over that fence, stays there.Becomes a property of the Beast until

Forrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeevvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

I don’t bother trying to explain it anymore. I takes forever.

Eternity – that which is not finite or limited. So sayeth the soothsayer.

Hold up a ring. Eternity is one perfect round. It has no beginning or an end.

Take one single grain of sand from the beach on the west coast. Walk with it all the way to the east coast. Drop it off and return to the west coast. Continue one grain at a time until there is no west coast. Then repeat moving the east coast sand to the west coast.

Maybe that’s like one hour in eternity.

@squirbel I think you had one of the best answers.

@willbrawn Just wondering, are you saying time is a cycle?

@alossforwords Sandlot?

In the eternal perspective. This “period” we live in or time is but a small moment. A single page in a neverending story.

Eternity is…

A circle.

Yes… Sandlot. What better metaphor for eternity than the legend of the Beast?

The day when the all the stars in the universe stops shining and than it;s still not even close to eternity. It’s a cicle.

About n seconds, as n approaches infinity.

It’s nearly equal to the number of words daloon has ever written on Fluther.

Eternity… it’s what Time attempts to hide from us. Eternity is Timeless. Time is Man made. No thing made from Man is Timeless or Eternal, yet Man is Timeless and Eternal.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I’m going to have to disagree that man is timeless and eternal. I think we are imprisoned by our concept of time, and we are the most likely species to end our reign on earth. We’re just now developing a significant amount of technology at a rapid rate. Imagine us being around to see the sun burn out… Not very likely.

Wonders if anyone ‘got’ his answer…?

@alossforwords Humans are beings primarily based upon a finite amount of information. That information is presented as approximately 650mb within our DNA. DNA is a code. All codes have authors.

Not only are we based upon information, but we can also author new information throughout our lives. In that process, we author our own essence. Mankind is unparalleled in his ability to author information. It is one of the few traits we share with God.

Just as there is no evidence to suggest that energy and matter can be destroyed, there is also no evidence to suggest that information can be destroyed either. Humans are beings of information. It has nothing to do with technology whatsoever.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

First of all, there is no evidence to suggest that there is a god. That’s why religion is faith-based.

Second, not all codes have authors. Unless you want to consider the natural causality of every event that occurs and the natural response of everything to its environment as authoring… then we’re just getting vague.

Third, I reference technology as our own personal demise. I strongly believe that mankind or a plague of some sort will destroy man in order to reassign a system of homeostasis to the earth. It’s nature. We’re a greedy lot that takes and takes. Nature reacts, we overcome, our technology and science improve, health care improves, we live longer, population increases, nature reacts… and so on. We will end ourselves unless nature proposes a riddle that we cannot solve or a comet will hit us or take your pick…

Fourth, I think that of all the things that are “timeless” man is the least “timeless” of them all. We created the concept. If there is a “God”, the very idea would not be applicable to him or it. Most of them claim omipresence and omnipotence (Alpha and Omega) neither beginning or ending, which mean time would not, does not, and cannot apply to him, it or them. Man is “time-full”. We measure everything selfishly in comparisson to our span of life and the lives of other humans, the things that we can measure physically in comparisson to each other’s movement, and the stars which are a part of a universe that for all we know could be infinite or a finite as this period >>> .

Furthermore, I think it is very selfish to think this world belongs to man. We’ve had a short reign in comparisson to the age of the earth. It has not been proven that information cannot be destroyed. Hawking has published quite a bit concerning information loss in equations involving black holes (which we have much to learn about still). If everything is reduced to carbon and raw materials killed and left to scorch in front of a sun that burns out, swells, and implodes or is sucked into a black hole, though, this debate (information) will not matter if it does survive in some form. There won’t be any human brains left to interpret it or god or anything else we can fancy.

Now to those of you that I offended: I am a peaceful man. Be gentle with the pitchforks, or prove me wrong with logic, and I will bow down and salute your knowledge.

@alossforwords Your thoughtful reply raises a few commonly misunderstood issues about the nature of what Information is and how it comes about. I will address each of them accordingly.

“…no evidence to suggest … a god.”

We simply disagree here. Though you may not have found any, consider the possibility that others may have. This evidence is far beyond the typical theist faith. Before you decide to accept or decline this evidence, you should be made aware of the logic behind the reasoning for such a claim. Your previous reply suggests that you have a mind for doing as such.

About Information…

“…not all codes have authors.”

Please show me one code that does not require sentient authorship. I speak of legitimate codes that conform to Shannon/Yockey protocols. Those protocols determine that DNA is not only a code, but also possesses a full closed loop communication system that predetermines an outcome for a physical event… just as all codes do. That’s why we call it the Genetic Code.

When we find a book in the trash with its cover ripped off, we do not assume that it wrote itself. Logic and Science demand that we infer the existence of an author… for all codes… no exceptions… Even if the author is anonymous.

“Unless… natural causality… and… natural response… (is) authoring…”

No. In fact just the opposite. Cause and reaction is a primary element of chaos which produces patterns. Patterns from Chaos do not produce code. Chaos does not require a sentient mind for anything. Fractal patterns occur naturally and never contain Information. Codes represent Information, and both require a sentient mind to exist.

It is easy to confuse “Cause & Reaction” with “Thought & Action”… but they are not the same at all. Cause/Reaction only requires the fundamental principles of the Laws of Nature. Thought/Action requires a mind.

I have intensely studied this subject for over a decade and will be happy to provide as much detail as you require. But before I start quoting Mathematicians and Information Theorists, I’d appreciate your consideration for a simple general discussion on the matter. It may require you to lay down a few previously held assumptions.

When code is produced about “natural causality” and “natural response”… it always comes from the mind of a sentient observer. The observer does not “read” a code from the tornado. The observer “observes” and then “describes” the tornado. The tornado does not speak to anyone and it is incapable of telling us anything. The belief that tornados communicate with humans is called “Apparent Information”. But this is not “Genuine Information”. It is dangerous and hypocritical to have faith in “Apparent Information”, for ultimately, it lends support to ancient myth and folklore by suggesting that nature can talk to humans and somehow communicate a message to us.

Information is created at the point where a human desires to describe an observation. That description is the representation of thought from a mind and it must be communicated upon the mechanism of a code in order to be transmitted and received.

Code is a lens that we use to create and view the immaterial realm of Information. Yes, Information is immaterial, and a separate agent from Energy and Matter.

Norbert Wiener, the father of Cybernetics claims:
“Information is Information. Not energy and not matter. Any materialism that does not allow for this cannot survive in the present”.
Cybernetics, p147

There is a third agent at work in our reality, and it’s name is Information. Information is the key ingredient to life. SETI is not looking for life. SETI is looking for a signal that represents Information upon a code. SETI fully recognizes that where there is Information, there is also life. If the entire universe was already filled with a natural source of Information, then SETI would have no basis for their exploration methodologies.

“… technology (is) our own personal demise.”

Technology is a product of humanity. Ultimately, humanity is “our own personal demise”. Technology is a simple tool for bringing it about. Every tool is a byproduct of tech. The spoon is a product of technology and a direct descendent of the shovel. The spoon and the shovel do not contribute to the demise of humanity.

“I strongly believe…”… ”We’re a greedy lot…”… “We will end ourselves unless…”...

Your belief, your judgment, and your predictions are all based upon your observations. Be cautious about basing your observations on “… “nature propos(ing) a riddle”. Nature does not propose anything. Nature does not speak and has no mind for communicating conundrums of any sort. Humans observe nature and author their own questions about it.

“… I think that of all the things that are “timeless”… man is the least “timeless” of (all).”

So you do believe that some “things” are “timeless”? Please explain… if not “man”, then what? I have a few suggestions but I’m interested in listening to what you consider as “timeless”. A good introduction of knowledge on the subject of Time can be found here:
http://www.iep.utm.edu/t/time.htm

My personal studies have shown that concepts of Time & Space are nothing more than unrecognized extensions of our human senses… just like smell, taste and sight.

“It has not been proven that information cannot be destroyed”.

This is an argument from the negative position. If we are to have a logical discussion on the matter then we must argue from the positive. That’s just like saying that we can’t disprove God or Unicorns.

About the destruction of Information. We can destroy the medium that carries it, but there is no evidence to suggest that the Information itself can be destroyed. Believing so without any evidence to support it requires a great deal of faith based upon faulty assumptions.

As to Stephen Hawking… he is not an Information Theorist. You speak of “this debate (information) will not matter if it does not survive in some form” and “There won’t be any human brains left to interpret it…”

Those statements are based upon the faulty assumption that Information is a product of Energy and Matter. Nothing could be further from the Truth. Again, Norbert Wiener reminds us…

“Information is Information. Not energy and not matter. Any materialism that does not allow for this cannot survive in the present”.
Cybernetics, p147

Finally, when we speak of “God”, please consider that we may not be equally assigning the same meaning to that term.

@Zen Pardon my inquiry. Are you referring to my answer? Are you requesting further explanation or suggesting a deeper inspection of my statement to others?

Please excuse me if your comment was not directed at mine.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I do not have the time (at the moment) to reply. However, your response is very much appreciated and obviously required a level of thinking that I’m not frequently exposed to. In due time, I plan to discuss further some of my views which I hope mature and develop as I gain a larger understanding of… well everything. For now, great answer.

@alossforwords Yes, this concept of Information does confront our natural views of it. It usually takes about 80 years for any new philosophy or science to be universally accepted. The notions I put forth have only existed for around 50 years.

I have no doubts that paying homage to them will lead to the next great awareness of humanity, on a scale unparalleled in all of history. It is so clear… so crystal clear, that we often have a difficult time seeing it.

In the meantime, this video may help you understand the premise better.
http://www.perrymarshallspeaks.com/

I’ve studied these principles for years and cannot find one valid argument against it. I probably know more about the subject than the presenter does and have found tremendous supporting evidence from numerous industries and sciences. It is worthy of your consideration.

I am at your disposal for further discussion.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I meant my previous post. I said: eternity is…

Isn’t that the best way of explaining it?

@Zen Yes. That IS the best way of explaining it. “I Am” comes in a pretty close second.

Here is the way it was explained to me. Evelyn told me that she is immortal. She also said that every minute she talks to me, 600 million years are removed from her life. When I asked her why she is wasting her time talking to me, she smiled like a deranged Jack O’Lantern, and said that I make her laugh and she enjoys talking to me.

She then told me that she could talk to me for a billion years and it would make no difference in her lifespan, as eternity was much longer than any simple minded human could fathom. (Of course, she had to point out that I was mortal and talking to me much past another fifty years would be a sadly one-sided conversation) Then she chucked me under the chin gently and said in a very saccharine voice that she thought I was ‘cuuuute’ to be worried about her.

Sometimes “eternity” “infinity” and “immortal” can be confused.

“Immortal” signifies a beginning, but no end, or no death. In classical cosmology, angels are immortal, having been created, but having no death or end.

“Infinite” indicates having no boundaries or limits, as in the mathematical concept.

“Eternal” may interpreted as atemporal, or outside the influence of time. Time can be described as that which keeps events from occurring all at once.” Eternity is anything that exists outside of “time.”

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies: The average person in today’s high-tech society will process in one day the same amount of information the average person in Elizabethan times would process in a lifetime.

@Yetanotheruser

Your comments are valued. How interesting…

I’ve never considered your point about information processing of modernity vs Elizabethan times… well not in that way at least. Is this related to Moore’s Law?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law

Is this notion a perception of yours (which I agree with in principle), or is there hard data to reference the statement. Fascinating incite you’ve presented…

I can’t take credit for the observation. It was mentioned during a casual conversation I was having with a researcher at the university. He mentioned that there were statistics involved, but I did not research them myself or perform any followup.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies, rather than sidetrack this thread, I’ve started another thread to discuss Moore’s Law and other futurist theories.

Imagine going to Mount Everest every one hundred years with a spoon, climbing to the top, taking a spoonful, and bringing the spoonful back to the ocean and dumping it in. By the time Mount Everest was gone, eternity has just begun.

Anyone get that depressing feeling when thinking about eternity? I’m catholic, so my views are that I will live with God happily forever. As a mortal, it doesn’t seem too happy. I just imagine waking up each day again and again with out end, and that is what is to become of me, and it makes my whole body just feel weird. Honestly when I think about it, I would rather have more of a buddhist approach, as reincarnation. In this case, you will be born again, and even though forever will still happen (it must, right?), it does not seem as bad to me, I don’t know why….whether I am knowledgeable to the fact that I will keep being born again or if I don’t. But maybe that is my heaven? But is heaven personal to me? I don’t really want the Christian heaven that I have been given an image of. I hate thinking of eternity I’m stopping! now I have to do something cheerful