Do you use the word faggot as an insult to people who you know aren't gay? My gay friends, please don't be offended by this question.
I grew up in an era (the 70’s) when we called each other faggot all the time. It wasn’t about gay people, we used it to mean someone who was really effed up. In fact, I would never call a gay person a faggot, but I call my (straight) best friend one all the time. I am not a homophobe, words have more than one meaning.
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No, I sure wouldn’t. Just like I wouldn’t call a white person a nigger or a non-Jew a kike.
Words may have different meanings, but why perpetuate the use of a word that is mainly to cause insult to a group of people?
Jerk and asswipe would work just fine.
No way. I hate when people say that, but then again I am of another generation.
No. I use the word stupid.
@Likeradar thank you. I never looked at it in that way. It’s just that, I know I don’t mean it as a slur to gays, so I may not get it completely. Thanks for clearing it up some.
Is it okay for your straight friends to be offended by this question?
The word is revolting, regardless of context. Everyone should be offended by it, regardless of personal orientation.
Sometimes I think, ‘what a fag’ when I see a guy who’s trying to be extra-manly, but he’s not, or he’s over-compensating. And sometimes I say ‘that’s gay’ when I really mean ‘that’s dumb’. But I’m pro gay-rights, if it matters
I don’t like the word ‘faggot’.
‘Cocksucker’ is kind of fun to use though.
Never. It’s hurtful and classless.
I grew up in the 70’s and the facts are that when the word faggot was used it WAS a put-down to gays even if it was used on straight people. It WAS about gay people, i.e., to be gay was supposed to be a “bad” thing in those days. THAT’S why it was insulting to straight people. We still used the “n” word in those days and that was, TOO, an insult to African Americans. It was a “bad” thing for white people to have anything African American in those days. Sad but true.
@Mr_M not in my circle of friends. There were times when it was used as a put down to gays, and other times when it wasn’t.
I’m straight, I’m offended.
Words are what we use to attribute meaning to things, if you can’t grasp that you have no business using them.
I think it’s one of the most disgusting and degrading words, and I do not use it.
So, if we were playing a game, and I thought you were doing a crap job at it, you’d be cool with me saying:
Ha, you fail. You’re such a nigger!
That’d be cool, right? It’s not like I mean it or anything.
No, I don’t say that. But like I always say, it depends more on the motive behind the word, not the word itself. I’m not the kind of person who sees words as black and white, bad or good, 0 or 1. Words have many dimensions and while certain words are generally used to be offensive, if the motive isn’t offensive, then I don’t see much of a problem unless you’re using it in front of a person who might find it offensive.
@asmonet
Using traditionally offensive words for non-offensive purposes requires an understanding among the people using it. You can’t just randomly use it and expect people to like it.
@Dansedescygnes: Than you’re really not aware of the big big world you live in.
@The_unconservative_one , it would be like calling a woman “Mama Cass”. Remember her from the Mamas and the Papas? It was an insult and in order to BE an insult it had to mean Mama Cass was a negative; something a woman would NOT want to be.
@Dansedescygnes: I see how you’re trying to rationalize it when I read the words, but what I comprehend is a load of bullshit.
@asmonet
What is that supposed to mean? Like I said, using offensive words for non-offensive purposes requires an understanding and an agreement among the people using them. Using them outside of that will probably result in offending someone and that’s why people shouldn’t be doing that.
@asmonet
Tell me, why do you want to preserve a word’s offensive power? Why do you want to make certain that word has the ability to always offend and put others down? Because that’s what is happening when you proclaim that a word must always be offensive and can never be used in casual or non-offensive situations. What is the goal of that?
It’s offensive regardless because of the more serious connotations applied elsewhere. It is simply unacceptable.
For more opinions from me, see here.
Tell me, why you want to be blunt, abrasive and crass while pretending to be progressive and liberal about it?
Mama Cass had a great voice.
@asmonet, and @MrItty , i can see you being offended by the word, but not the question. How do you think we are ever going to get over these types of misunderstandings if we are afraid to discuss them?
@asmonet
It isn’t about blunt, abrasive, and crass. This doesn’t speak outside of individual groups of people or two friends, in some cases.
I’m offended by it, and so are my many LGBT friends, therefore I do not use it.
@asmonet Who are you to decide that someone is “pretending” to be progressive? Unless you have developed a skill in mind reading, you can’t say what another person is thinking. I asked this question in order to get some understanding of what people think. Not to have you tell me what I’m all about. You don’t know what my thoughts are. FYI, I am Pro gay rights, 100%.
@Dansedescygnes: Doesn’t matter. If I called you a nigger and you were a friend of mine, or even a nigga, it is still offensive as it is strongly associated with negative aspects of a group of people. There is no denying an association between gay and negative here. Look at the development of that word. And tell me I’m wrong.
It. Is. Offensive.
I am guilty of using the word fag, but only to refer to my very gay friends, when they are indeed being faggy, and only in a jocular manner. I would never call ANYBODY a fag***. I don’t even want to write it. Please do not use that term. It is very offensive.
I can say they’re pretending all I want. That’s all this statement left me with:
Tell me, why do you want to preserve a word’s offensive power? Why do you want to make certain that word has the ability to always offend and put others down? Because that’s what is happening when you proclaim that a word must always be offensive and can never be used in casual or non-offensive situations. What is the goal of that?
It’s ridiculous.
@asmonet
I am offended by people using the word “faggot” to disparage me. Since I cannot understand what someone’s true motives are just by hearing them use it, I’d prefer they didn’t use it so much around me as there is a large chance they had an underlying homophobia about them. Still, this has yet to come up among my friends. I don’t really know how I would react for sure. Chances are if they knew I was gay they wouldn’t be using it anyway.
Scenario: You call me a “nigga”. We’re both black. It doesn’t bother me, it doesn’t bother you. Who is offended if we are using it in private circumstances?
@asmonet If you would read @likeradar’s comment, and my answer, above, you would see that I acknowledged that point.
This is why a Fluther convention at a bar would get out of hand…
never.
just as i don’t call something negative gay. i just don’t see the point, as there’s plenty of other insulting words that aren’t synonymous with someone’s sexual orientation.
@Dansedescygnes: Others can still hear you. Why put more hurt in the world? It’s just idiotic.
@asmonet
I’m not “pretending” anything. This is how I truly feel. Don’t like it? Tough. We’re not going to agree on this, this should probably just end. If I ever used these terms in this way, I’m not going to be using these terms in front of ANYONE who doesn’t fully view them as non-offensive in those circumstances, so you personally would never hear of it at all. It’s private. That’s all I’m talking about.
You can feel that way all you want, I’m simply saying I feel you’re sadly and terribly misguided and will learn it when someone smacks some sense into you.
Just an opinion. :)
@asmonet
I feel the same way about you. I feel you are rigidly set in your world of “0” and “1” and are only keeping these words powerful and preserving the ability they have to offend. If you want to continue to keep it that way, that’s fine by me. But don’t go try and telling me what I do among my friends in private is wrong and damaging to society. What’s damaging is allowing a word to strike you down.
Just an opinion. :)
And you’ve kind just made my point, if you wouldn’t think of using it near others who could be offended, why use it at all when you know that potential exists? It simply doesn’t make sense.
Are you planning to interview all of your future friends and acquaintances to better undrstand their level of comfort with derogatory terms of all kinds before using them in casual conversation? Can you be sure each and every one is completely honest about their feelings? No, and no.
So don’t.
Easy Peasy.
Hello from the uk. Where a faggot is either a small bundle if twigs for lighting a fire or a lovely savoury meatball style dish. As featured in the song
“my donkey he don’t like his pancakes sweet,
My donkey he don’t like his tea time treat,
He likes to eat them savoury, he likes them with faggots and gravy,
My donkey he don’t like his pancakes sweet.”
@tinyfaery I hear you, and I see your point, as well as @asmonet and others. I will discontinue using that word. I am not married to the word, it’s easy enough to find another word. I DO NOT want to make anyone uncomfortable around me, or make them think I’m a homophobe. I love (mostly) all people. Honestly, there are some people I really can’t stand, but I do love most people
I don’t think he’s calling his friends twigs or cigarettes.
@asmonet
How can those friends be certain I am being true about my feelings? They can’t. In that strain, no one can be sure of anyone’s feelings, so how I can be sure that they’re really being offended?
This is not something I really feel like doing, I’m still trying to think of an example of when I’ve done this and one isn’t coming up. I’m arguing off of principle here. Or when I hear two black people call each other “nigga” in a friendly manner and it doesn’t strike me as offensive because it doesn’t offend those two individuals. I view each case as separate from the other.
And I don’t care if you don’t like me. My views on many issues are extremely unpopular. But I stand by what I believe in, no matter how unpopular they are. I don’t believe in allowing words to strike you down. I lessen the ability for that to happen with myself personally as much as possible.
Maybe “nigga” has just had more time to be integrated and therefore less offensive to many…maybe that’s all it is, is time?
@The_unconservative_one: Oh, my feelings towards him and this thread end here, it takes a special brand of asshole for me to hold a grudge. :)
@Dansedescygnes: Never said I didn’t like you, not once. I just wholeheartedly disagree based on personal experience being with my LGBT friends, and hearing them speak on the matter at length. Many of them refrain from using it themselves because of the offensive nature, just as some black people avoid calling each other nigga on principle.
@tinyfaery cigarettes are usually just fags aren’t they? Are faggots king size or something?
@asmonet
I have also spoken to many LGBT people, one who spoke of the fact that he didn’t become offended unless the intent was offensive, i.e. the difference between saying your computer is “gay” because it won’t start up and calling me a “butt-slamming faggot”. The latter is most likely going to accompany a tirade against homosexuals and true homophobia. True homophobia and racism are what need to be stamped out as to not hold the world back anymore, not the usage of words which may or may not have an offensive intent. I don’t get hung up about it, maybe others do. I have enough to get hung up about being a gay person. Words used in a friendly manner between two friends are the least of my worries.
See, you’re missing my point. If it’s offensive to most and it’s meaning and acceptability are conditional it is not enough to be a valid expression.
@asmonet
No, I get your point and it’s completely valid; why risk it, in other words?
I’m not saying I’m going to risk it. I’m just saying that it doesn’t bother ME personally as I have more important things to be bothered by, like true homophobia.
And you can’t stamp our what you call “true homophobia/racism” without doing away with he trivialization of it in casual conversation. You make it less important with every utterance.
I would argue that there is no such thing as “true homophobia/racism” as your view is in itself a form of homophobia. If you use a word that was brought into the current vernacular and dismiss it’s origins and intent you are a part of the problem.
It’s a passive form, but it’s there.
@asmonet
I don’t agree. Trivialization can lessen the word’s power. I don’t want to preserve the word’s power. I don’t want people to think they can offend me because they have certain words at their disposal.
Trivializing something that directly relates to an entire groups painful experiences, is not a way to lessen the power of it. It only serves to increase the persecution and disrespect of those peoples.
@asmonet I like the cut of your jib sir, and wish to subscribe to any newsletter you may be part of. And to save me the faff of getting angry with the idiots. I’ll just say now anything you say from now on represents my feelings too… I’ll check back to make sure you don’t suddenly get a bit, you know, Nazi.
Is it wrong to be offended? I think in context it’s wonderful. It shows moral character. get offended. Get pissed. Take action. Don’t throw up a wall and bulldoze your way through it.
Your argument reminds me of kids who are bullied, they don’t want to be bullied anymore so they become bullies themselves – shutting themselves off to the hurt that’s present and paying it forward.
@asmonet
No, it’s not wrong to be offended, but this is not something that offends me. It just isn’t. I don’t feel I “should” be offended by anything. Frankly, I’m offended by what you’ve been saying to me, the false analogies you’ve been making, and the assumptions you’ve been making.
False analogies?
Assumptions?
@asmonet
Comparing me to a bully is a false analogy. A bully turns on other people and victimizes them. I am talking about private conversations between friends that may or may not be overheard. You even called me homophobic. As a gay person, I couldn’t have found that more offensive. You don’t think I get offended? Sure as fuck I do. I just don’t get offended by the same things you do.
I did not say you were like that, I said it reminded me of that. Again, I would argue, by your continued usage you unintentionally victimize those within earshot. It’s callous. And as you don’t know everyone inside out, it could still affect your personal conversations as well.
And no, I kinda didn’t dude, but it’s not like being homosexual makes you immune to prejudice against others who would fit into a similar demographic, there are plenty of people biased against their own race, and the religion they grew up in, Southerners who hate other Southern accents. It’s nothing special.
@Dansedescygnes Even if it doesn’t offend you personally, you must admit that the word is commonly used to offend and belittle. As long as homophobia is rampant in our culture that word will always have power. You, personally, might be above words (and in many ways I agree with your argument), but many, many are not. Why would you want to add to that? If you must, do it the privacy of an intimate environment, where the potential to cause harm is minimal. But I wouldn’t. That word eats at my soul, just like the “n word”. I will never be able to separate those words from pain, hatred and fear. Maybe you are lucky. Just consider the rest of us. Queer person here.
@tinyfaery: But even then, the potential exists. He doesn’t seem to agree.
@tinyfaery
Tiny, I agree with absolutely everything you just said. The fact that these words don’t bother me personally does cause me to see things differently, but I don’t want people to dislike me or find me an offensive person. The more I can do to avoid that, the better. If that means preserving a word’s power, then fine. I work with society while slowly pushing my own views, not completely against it.
By the length of this thread I’d like to offer the folllowing summary.
Using the word faggot as an insult will certainly provoke lively debate. Best to avoid.
@asmonet
You said “my view is a form of homophobia”. I’m just quoting. If that’s not what you meant, then I misunderstood. And like I said, I don’t do this. This is all hypothetical. The part that I do “do” is the hearing other people use it and not having it bother me. If they’re hoping they don’t offend someone, then they’ve found a candidate in me.
Well, @asmonet has a point. Say we, you and me, were in a room with gay people only. You might think it’s okay to use the word fag*** facetiously, but I would be offended. And I would think less of you for doing so. That would be my gut reaction. You would hurt me and I wouldn’t like you. Just sayin’.
@tinyfaery
But I wouldn’t do that, that’s not what I’m saying. If another gay person indicated to me that it didn’t bother them (by either stating it or saying it themselves) only then would I consider that “permission” to use it. And like I said, I haven’t done this before. But I would need a “sign”. I can’t just guess because they are gay.
“I would argue that there is no such thing as “true homophobia/racism” as your view is in itself a form of homophobia. If you use a word that was brought into the current vernacular and dismiss it’s origins and intent you are a part of the problem.
It’s a passive form, but it’s there.”
I see homophobia as just that, a phobia – a fear. And as such there are varying degrees. By not standing up for the group you belong to, whether by choice or not, you contribute to it’s issues as a whole.
@tinyfaery: That’s exactly what I mean! Why then would anyone in their right mind choose to use it or sit back and allow it to be used around them?
If you don’t agree with it, but you’re fine with others using it in certain situations and in the right context… how do you resolve the two? I see them as mutually exclusive, myself.
@asmonet
It’s just not something I view as that important. What’s important is discrimination against gays, unequal treatment, violence against gays, harassment against LGBT children in schools, unaccepting parents, etc. Those are the issues that bother me the most. I can’t make myself be offended by something that I’m not offended by. And like I said, we’re not going to agree. So please let’s end this for now. I have other things to do.
And as someone that is a part of the LGBT community do you not see the merit in fighting whether actively or not against discrimination in all forms? You don’t see this as a form of discrimination that has wormed it’s way into society? You don’t think calling someone a faggot promotes negativity towards homosexuals thus fostering the environment for “unequal treatment, violence against gays, harassment against LGBT children in schools, unaccepting parents”?
I just truly don’t understand how you separate the two in your mind or in your heart. I really don’t get that.
That’s the only reason I’m still here, to see if you can shed light on that point specifically, but you don’t seem to interested, so sure, go do your other things. Or stay here, up to you. :)
I don’t think it fosters negativity unless it’s used in a negative way. That simple. I can’t explain it any further. But like I said, my aim is to please people for the most part. If society as a whole wants me to keep words offensive, then I’ll keep them offensive. Fine by me. I can’t fight for a cause when no one supports me. I can’t eradicate offensive terms by myself.
I didn’t say I agreed, I said I agreed to disagree. I still disagree and I always will. But if no one supports me, not much I can do about it.
@tinyfaery: And to think, we kinda really disliked each other back in the day. ;)
You grew on me. :)
I am the baby of the family, it happens. ;)
@tinyfaery
Oh…sorry ‘bout that. And like, I’ll always have my beliefs. But if people aren’t ready for them to be enacted, I’m not going to impose myself, who do you think I am, some kind of…imposing…5’5”...skinny person? Pfft.
Well, sliding past all the drama up there, let me put in my two cents.I have a gay friend, and he sometimes uses the word fag to refer to himself, but mostly he calls himself a homo. This is when we are joking around, and we kid each other a lot, and once I was describing someone that had pissed me off and I referred to that other person as a ‘cocksucker’. He stopped me in mid-rant and asked me what was so bad about that? It was then I realized that words are funny like that, and it matters who you say them to. so I changed it to c*ntlicker and he was fine with THAT insult.
So yeah, I use the word on occasion, but only with this one friend, and in a friendly way, usually as a greeting, i.e. “So how’s my favorite fag today?” and he isn’t offended by it. So it always depends in what context, and I don’t use the word in anger. That’s what ‘asshole’ and ‘m*therf*cker’ are for.
@evelyns_pet_zebra
That’s cool. Also, a lesbian girl said to me on another website “Words are only as harmful as you make them out to be, really. Context, context, context.”
And it’s funny because “how’s my favorite fag today?” is almost a direct quote of something my best friend said to me once. I laughed and I had an equally “offensive” response to her that she found funny too. It’s all about where it is said and for what purpose.
It really depends on HOW it’s said. I sometimes use it as an endearment or to be funny with the gay guys I’m around.
exactly @loser and we’re back to the “nigga” analogy.
@Dansedescygnes
I’m gay and I totally agree with you. It depends on the context. Between my gay friends we can say “stop being such a fag” – it it has a totally different connotation than when it’s used in a homophobic manner by a non-gay person. My black friends – among themselves – will say “that’s my nigga” which obviously has a different connotation than the traditional derogatory meaning. Minorities have taken these words and devalued them.
When very young we did use the word, “faggot” to mean dork or dweebus until we learned what it really meant and then we found other words to use for jabs such as, “retard”.
I used to say “That’s retarded,” when I thought something was stupid. It always really bothered me that I said it. I finally started making a conscious effort to stop saying it and it worked! And now when I hear it used as a derogatory term, I cringe, it’s like nails on a chalkboard…
Sure, I have no problems with it at all. We used to do the same thing, using it as a pejorative insult.
@The_unconservative_one, “i can see you being offended by the word, but not the question”.
Your question details specifically ask gay people not to get offended by the question. That seems to me to imply that you expect they might become so offended. Yet you’re confused as to why straight people might be offended by it? Why? What is your logic behind assuming that homosexuals and heterosexuals can’t be offended by the same thing?
Here’s the thing – gay people and straight people are simply PEOPLE. Your question and associated followups make it seem like you don’t quite understand that.
No. When I learn that words I use are offensive/racist/etc, I stop using them.
@MrItty I specifically asked gay people not to be offended because I thought there could be a chance that some of them might interpret the question as a slam against homosexuality and I wanted to make it clear that it isn’t.
@The_unconservative_one And why would only gay people be offended about a slam against homosexuality?
I’m straight, but homophobes offend me.
I’m white, but racists offend me.
I’m male, but sexists offend me.
Are you seriously only offended by prejudices that apply directly to you? If the prejudices are spoken by people the same race/gender/creed/orientation as you, you’re A-Okay with it?
@VzzBzz and aviona, the word retard is inoffensive in that it isn’t used by the medical/caregiver establishment anymore. People in that category are now referred to as developmentaly disabled, or as having Down Syndrome, or one of many other specific terms for having mentally slow or ‘retarded’ capability. Because that’s what retarded is, a slowing down, and it is used in several service and manufacturing industries to denote something as moving or going slower than normal.
So calling someone retarded isn’t offensive to DD or DS people; in fact, at one of my wife’s work gatherings, I heard one DD individual say to another DD individual (about a third individual) “He’s such a retard!”
In the context I heard it and the way he used it, it was hilarious. People are people, no matter their station or position or preference in life. People need to lighten up and stop taking everything so damn serious.
@MrItty as I said before. I can see why the word would offend you, but I can’t see why the question would.
You said, “And why would only gay people be offended about a slam against homosexuality? ”
I clearly stated above that this question is NOT a slam against homosexuality. Perhaps you should be a little more careful in reading.
You asked, “Are you seriously only offended by prejudices that apply directly to you?”
When and where did I ever say anything even remotely akin to that? If you are going to put words in my mouth, we don’t need to discuss this any further.
@The_unconservative_one, perhaps you should be a little more careful reading what you yourself wrote.
“My gay friends, please don’t be offended by this question. ”
“I specifically asked gay people not to be offended because I thought there could be a chance that some of them might interpret the question as a slam against homosexuality and I wanted to make it clear that it isn’t.”
So which is it? Are you concerned that only gay people might misunderstand your question to be a slam, or are you concerned that only gay people might, having so misunderstood it, therefore become offended?
Either choice, you come off a bigot who thinks sexual orientation has something to do with ability to interpret or reading comprehension. Gay People. Straight People. JUST PEOPLE. Homosexual and Heterosexual people have the same chance of “misunderstanding” your question to be a slam against homosexuality. Homosexual and Heterosexual people have the same chance of being offended by a slam against homosexuality. Yet you insist on only worrying that gay people might misunderstand and/or become offended, depending on which interpretation you want to stick to this time. WHY? What is it about being gay that you think can either lead one to not understand a question where a straight person would, or become offended at said question if it has been misunderstood?
@MrItty Okay, i can see that you aren’t worthy of talking to. You don’t seek understanding, you just want to continue to troll. I don’t feed trolls. Goodbye.
no, I don’t use it
and it shouldn’t be used to meant ‘something stupid’
as that’s not a good thing either
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