If you are religious - could you please explain why bad things happen to good people?

Everyone needs some bad in order to appreciate the good.

You need to look outside the box, those sufferings here on physical plain can be great blessings in everlasting spiritual plain.

Bad things happen to everyone.

We ALL have problems. Big problems. Look around you – just because people don’t speak publicly about it doesn’t mean they don’t have even BIGGER problems then you. Take consolation in that. Don’t feel sorry for yourself.

People bring it on themselves, or sometimes they are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Bible also says it is impossible to test God with wickedness and God Himself doesn’t test anyone with evil. (James 1:13)

@omfgTALIjustIMDu I agree, without bad there is no good. You also have to look past the bad sometimes to the bigger meaning behind it all. If my parents hadn’t moved away (bad) I wouldn’t have felt the empowerment to support myself (good). Kind of a stretch but you get the idea

In the case of the innocent ancient Egyptians, bad things happen to you because Yahweh hardens Pharaoh’s heart, forcing him to keep the Hebrews in captivity, even though he wants to release them—all this to give Yahweh an excuse to torture and kill the Egyptians in spectacular fashion to impress his Hebrew followers.

Bad things may also happen to you if Satan manages to make a bet with Yahweh that you do not have sufficiently blind faith in him, after which Yahweh allows Satan to inflict you with diseases and kill your family, and then still gets pissy when you ask him why bad things happen to good people.

I’m not sure exactly how to describe my feelings about this, but I think of tests as a process of refinement that we humans go through. For every bad thing we endure we learn something. Something that changes who we are and how we live in this world. Hopefully we can take what we learned and make that change be for the positive. To me, these quotes speak volumes on the subject.

O Thou Whose tests are healing medicine to such as are nigh unto Thee… —Baha’u’llah

Glory to Thee, O my God! But for the tribulations which are sustained in Thy path, how could Thy true lovers be recognized; and were it not for the trials which are borne for love of Thee, how could the station of such as yearn for Thee be revealed. —Baha’u’llah

Fireside can probably find some even better quotes.

@omfgTALIjustIMDu

Somehow that makes me think of Brave New World.

because no good deed goes unpunished

@eponymoushipster
“People bring it on themselves, or sometimes they are just in the wrong place at the wrong time.”
How does this apply to deformed babies with genetic defects, or people with inoperable familial cancers, for example? Did they bring it on themselves?

@SuperMouse
“For every bad thing we endure we learn something.”
Again, what about babies born with painful, fatal genetic defects that will never get to learn anything?

@crisw if you also read the whole quip, it also said: sometimes we’re in the wrong place at the wrong time. It’s chance sometimes. Does God kill a baby because “he needs another angel”, like some contend? No Why would he need to do that? That’s people coming up with reasons, that 1) aren’t Biblical and 2) counter what it says about God in the Bible.

too, things happen like that, because people are imperfect. When Adam and Eve rejected God’s rule, they condemned all their offspring to imperfection. In either case: God is not to blame for these things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

Im always told that everything happens for a reason. My tv crapped out on me and now i have this gansta ass lcd flat screen. Now my laptop has just crapped out on me a few days ago and now waiting for a new one. Oh…and im unemployed WOOT but everything happens for a reason :-)

Bad things happen to all people. But only good people face the consequences.

@eponymoushipster
“too, things happen like that, because people are imperfect.”
How is a newborn baby “imperfect”? What sin could it have possibly committed that is terrible enough to cause it to be born only to suffer its entire life and then die?

“When Adam and Eve rejected God’s rule, they condemned all their offspring to imperfection. In either case: God is not to blame for these things.”
So a loving, benevolent God will torture babies for eternity to punish people for something that they, themselves, never did? How is that possible in any sane world?

@crisw

1) imperfection is inherited. God forewarned Adam and Eve what the consequences would be for disobedience for them and their offspring, and they knowingly disobeyed. Again, not God’s fault – He provided everything for them, and even gave them the free will what to decide to do, and they chose to go against Him, despite all this.

2) Where does it say in the Bible that God torments and punishes anyone for eternity? it doesn’t, and it isn’t sane. Hell is the grave – not a place of torment for all eternity. The Bible says “The wages sin pays are death.” not torment. Even Satan is eventually going to be destroyed, not left to exist forever. Why would God want him to continue to exist for eternity?

@eponymoushipster, Deuteronomy 28:63 says God will “take delight in your ruin and destruction.” Before this passage is a litany of curses God will inflict on anyone who doesn’t follow the OT commandments, such as painful boils, slavery, and being forced to eat the flesh of your kids.

You think eternal punishment is a stretch for this character?

Also, can you explain how the actions of my ancestors condemn me? This seems to contradict Biblical jurisprudence, which outlaws punishing children for their father’s crimes (a common practice in Mesopotamia at the time).

The lord works in mysterious ways…?

Since you asked – I will tell you what I believe.

In the beginning, all was good. God existed with his angels. Angels had free choice, and one’s heart became filled with jealousy at God’s position. This was Lucifer. God knew this – and could have destroyed Lucifer immediately. But he didn’t, because that would have been a violation of free choice. He would be a dictator at that point.

Lucifer started poisoning other angels with his ideas. Most curled away as though he were a fanatic, and others agreed with him. A revolt was brewing.

Meanwhile, God had finished his newest creation – Earth. Now, there are other created worlds out there, but they are unblemished and sin-free. Now he had to deal with this problem he had in the heavens with Lucifer.

There was a court of sorts held, and Lucifer and the third of angels he had convinced were cast out and sent to earth. Earth was to be their prison.

Lucifer used his wiles to get this new race, who had been set above angels, even, by being honored with the image of God. He knew if he could get God’s prize – it would hurt him to his heart. Thus, the story of the snake and the apple. Man fell. God weeped, but had to banish them from the pure Garden of Eden.

To this day, Lucifer tries to cajole and win more to his side. He knows his day is coming. The day when God says – “You see? For the safety of the universe, this cannot go on.” And all the other worlds will agree, and all the hosts of angels will agree – and shout “Sin cannot be allowed to survive! It will destroy us!” In this way, free choice will not be violated – Lucifer made his choice and it has been deemed unfit for existence by his peers.

This is where the many stories of the ending of the world come into play. God will destroy and purify this Earth – but he will make it anew so that purity can go on. It will be as pure as the other planets he has created.

Why do bad things happen to bad people? Because Lucifer and his own are at work, and God cannot intercede on one’s behalf, and violate free choice. One has to request assistance.

Why does it seem my prayers are never answered then? In his wisdom, he has possibly decided that now is not the time [think butterfly effect].

Now that you think I’m positively weird, or even crazy, I will note that I have never bible-bashed anyone, I have never tried to convert someone, I am not religious [as in associated with a particular religion]. This story is told often, by many religions, and it is as if each religion has a separate piece of it. I have merely studied many religions and their books – and this is the common thread and how it fits together.

Hajimemashite. [Please be kind to me.]

Bad things happen to good people because “an invisible demon did it”?

May I ask if you believe in evolution? Because biology actually provides rational answers to this question.

@Squirbel: I don’t think you even need to invoke Lucifer.

We have free will. We can make our own choices. The only way for God to make sure that nothing bad ever happened to good people would be to take away our free will. Sometimes people choose poorly because they do not have important facts; other times, they choose poorly because they’re acting selfishly.

It’s not invoking it. I honestly believe it.

Sumimasen.

As for evolution, I believe in micro-evolution. I believe science is God’s “magic”. He works through science, and allows us to discover whatever we want. Things that seemed like magic to us in yesteryear are ho-hum today. Even gravity has gone from being a law to being a theory, because quantum mechanics and force fields defy it. What if soon we were able to float like the angels, and move about in the air? They wouldn’t seem magical anymore. We would have solved the puzzle of quantum mechanics and moved on to the next greatest thing.

So, I believe in science and all it has to offer, except the alternate explanation for the origin of life and matter.

@cwilbur, do you believe chimpanzees have free will?

What about severely retarded human beings?

I love this.

@Qingu postures about the character of God and then questions someone’s response involving Satan and the demonic with ridicule about an ‘invisible demon’.

What’s the matter Q? Do you only accept Christians believe in God, Angels and Heaven but believing in demons is taking it one step too far?

If you were to really study the bible, and interpret it for yourself as we’re encouraged to, you would discover there’s actually plenty of room there to believe in both the divine creation AND evolution. Which is why it tickles me so much when you play it as your trump card in every conversation. My belief is God created an ever-changing, ever-growing world, and the evolution of species is a big part of that.

Your arguments are tired, your logic fallacious, and your opinion of no real quality, neither logical nor humourous.

@Qingu, I have made a conscious choice to no longer engage with you or respond to your questions, because I do not think it will lead to a positive experience for either of us or for the Fluther community at large. Good day.

There’s a very simple reason:

No crisis, no growth.

In fact, humanity wouldn’t even exist if nothing bad had happened to our ancestors. They would not have come down their trees and just stayed in their little paradise in Africa. But then something catastrophic happened: large scale climate change. Food shortages. The need to explore unchartered territory. The need to develop language to survive.

So symbolically speaking, God did us a favor by making it hard for us. We evolved.

@benseven, I’m kind of confused as to what your post has to do with mine. I find the belief in demons just as ridiculous as the belief in gods and angels.

I’ve also studied the Bible, probably a lot more than you have, and I find your interpretations of it intellectually dishonest. We’ve been over this, and you’re not going to win any arguments by name-calling.

If you study A-Level Philosophy and Ethics, you’ll know about a certain thing called the ‘Problem of Evil’. It’s basically the idea that in a world with an omnibenevolent, omnipotent God, how could evil possibly exist. No-one thus far has created a solution (or ‘theodicy’).

The problem lies in the fact that the ‘Inconsistent Triad’ cannot be satisfied. That is, God can’t be simultaneously omnibenevolent and omnipotent, because if he created the world, it isn’t free of evil, and therefore he isn’t omnibenevolent. On the other hand, if he is omnipotent, he could just get rid of evil, and he hasn’t, so therefore he can’t be omnipotent.

@cwilbur
“We have free will. We can make our own choices”
Again- how does any of this relate to deformed children? They did not do anything to “choose” to be born that way. They suffer terribly. Why?

@eponymoushipster
“Where does it say in the Bible that God torments and punishes anyone for eternity? it doesn’t, and it isn’t sane.”
As I don’t believe in heaven or hell, I was talking about that baby’s time on earth. It will be filled with endless suffering. It has nothing to do with anything the baby ever did. Why would a sane God allow this? What possible reason could there be for this? Every explanation I’ve ever read sounds much more like a rationalization than an actual sensible explanation.

@NuclearSnail

I am sure you’ve heard this one-

”“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Epicurus

@squirbel
Thank you for your response – and I would never not be kind to you (and yes – I know that’s a double negative ;-)

We all blame God for bad things that happen,have you ever thought of blaming the Devil for stubbing your toe on the corner of the door or shooting the brains out of your neighbor.

To answer the question, it’s very simple, bad things happen because we live in a sinful world.

Why are babies born with problems? Because we live in a sinful world. Does that mean their life is meaningless? Hardly. Our daughter was born with a multitude of complications, but her little life has encouraged more people than my life without alot of pain. Is God using her suffering? Absolutely and I can’t even imagine how far reaching that is.

I’ve never liked the expression. It’s supremely self indulgent nonsense. Everyone thinks they’re good and when something bad happens they loudly ask “why me!?” as though they are owed some sort of pass in regard to suffering becuase they think they are a good person.

The truth of the matter is that bad things happen to everyone good or bad. There no reason for it, it just the nature of life.

@miasmom, do you really, actually believe that a legendary clay-man eating an apple at the urging of a talking snake cause genetic complications?

Why do you believe this?

And also, according to the ancient Babylonian religion that the Hebrews took much of their ideas from, such complications are not caused by sin. They were created by the gods to limit human population, after humans became too numerous and noisy and annoyed the gods. What would you say to someone who believed their daughter’s complications were caused by Enlil creating demons to curb human overpopulation?

@Mr_M
“We ALL have problems. Big problems. Look around you – just because people don’t speak publicly about it doesn’t mean they don’t have even BIGGER problems then you. Take consolation in that. Don’t feel sorry for yourself.”

Thanks for your response
. But actually – I wasn’t referring to myself. I don’t think of myself as “good people.” ;-)

@miasmom
“bad things happen because we live in a sinful world.”

So why would an all-powerful God allow such “bad things” to happen? See the quote from Epicurus that I posted above. And why, if all of these “bad things” are a punishment for sin, are they meted out so unfairly? Why do newborn babies and animals and innocent people suffer while robber barons and drug lords and genocidal maniacs live lives of luxury? Again, how can this possibly make any kind of sense; how can it be anything but a rationalization?

@miasmom Is God using her suffering? And you say absolutely. Sorry but I find it terrific.

God allows bad things to happen because we have free will. Bad things are not a punishment for sin (although sometimes that happens), they are a consequence of living in a sin filled world. Who are you to determine what is fair or just? And ultimately each will have to face God for what they did on earth.

And I will rephrase my thoughts on babies with complications. You aren’t going to like what I say on this, but I believe God created them this way purposefully. It says in the Bible that He knit us in our mother’s womb. I think many people attribut meaninglessness to complications when we shouldn’t judge what makes a life valuable.

@miasmom
“God allows bad things to happen because we have free will. ”
Do babies have free will? Do animals? If not, why do they suffer? Why isn’t it the beings who are exercising their free will inappropriately that are suffering? You really didn’t answer this directly. As I just asked- Why do newborn babies and animals and innocent people suffer while robber barons and drug lords and genocidal maniacs live lives of luxury?

“You aren’t going to like what I say on this, but I believe God created them this way purposefully.”
So your God would purposefully create lives that are filled with nothing but suffering and pain, just to teach someone else a lesson? Again, how does that make any sense in a sane world? How is it anything but a rationalization?

Oh cmon @KalWest you’re good people

@The_Compassionate_Heretic
alright – you twisted my arm ;-)
but i really wasn’t referring to myself with this question

I’d be very curious to hear from religious people about whether or not chimpanzees have free will.

You’re not curious to know – you’re curious for the sake of derision.

@squirbel

It’s hardly derision. It is a legitimate question. It’s not made illegitimate by the fact that it questions a belief you hold dear. It seems to me that many times religious folk would rather complain of harassment than face the facts that some questions have answers that might, if answered honestly, cause them to question their beliefs.

@crisw no, it’s called harassment. The question states “If you are religious…”. Are you? No? Ok, then, butt out. Or did you just come in to harass people who aren’t as hopeless as you?

You couldn’t come up with a question that would make me doubt my beliefs, regardless of what you’d consider “honest.”

I reject the false choice between derision and curiosity!

@crisw I couldn’t agree more with you. The sole thought of some innocent being suffering terrible pain and need so I can be a better person or understand some elusive truth terrifies me.
@miasmom Of course I can tell what is just or fair. If not how could I give proper advice to my son? Or live according to a moral code?

Well, I’m late to this party but I think you found some good quotes, Supermouse! I also like this one:

“Be patient in the time of affliction and trial, endure every difficulty and hardship with a dilated heart, attracted spirit and eloquent tongue in remembrance of the Merciful.”
Abdu’l-Baha

As silly as the question sounds by asking religious people to explain suffering in the world, I will attempt to provide my thoughts on the matter.

First, let’s start with the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism
• Life is qualified by suffering
• Suffering has a cause
• There can be an end to suffering
• There is a path describing how to end suffering

Suffering in this sense is not talking about babies born with physical ailments or flood victims, but is more about the average person and their lack of contentment with their path through life. Suffering is the natural state of humans who are caught up in their own web of desires and deceit (of themselves and of others).

Ending this type of suffering requires humility and, generally, service towards others which allows you to step outside of your self.

It is also covered by Jung who suggested that, as I understand it, a person can only weaken their Shadow (that part of themselves which projects personal imperfections upon others) by turning towards it and examining the Shadow through the light of the Animus without regard for the outer Persona.

As far as babies and flood victims, one would have to presuppose a God who is as active in humanity as the Fates of Greek mythology who cut each person’s golden thread and meted out their allotment in life. I don’t think it really works like that.

As far as why Bad things happen to Good people, I think it has been well stated that bad things happen to All people. Reversing it and asking why Good things happen to Bad people would meet with the same response; Good things happen to All people.

@eponymoushipster
“You couldn’t come up with a question that would make me doubt my beliefs”

See, I think that’s an irrational viewpoint. It’s basically stating that you are so certain you are right that absolutely no evidence to the contrary can convince you- that you are prepared to throw away all that evidence just to hold on to what you think is “truth.” I think that’s far more arrogant than anything that any atheist could ever say or do.

I also doubt very much that it’s a belief pattern that people apply to much else in their lives besides religion. For almost any other set of beliefs that people have, they freely agree that evidence for their position is important. You don’t buy a house based on stories about the house, you consult a house inspector and listen to what the house inspector has to say. Even if the house is beautiful on the outside, if that exterior conceals years of rot and neglect and termite infestation, if you are a sane human you walk away, no matter how pretty the house is. If you just said “I’m so certain this house is wonderful that all the inspectors must be wrong; how dare they question me?” you’d be viewed as pretty loony.

@crisw you’re right, i consider what i believe to be the “truth”, because i’ve researched it and believe in it. and just because some unfortunate little voice on the internet think he’s got the answers isn’t going to convince me otherwise. the question was explain, as per your view. not convince someone who won’t be convinced, regardless of whatever proof or explanation is presented.

you’re saying it’s arrogant to ignore views to the contrary. but that’s exactly what you’re doing. the question here wasn’t “convince me of this or that” it was “express your view” and you and quingo (or wtf his name is) started attacking and mocking people. You may think what i and others believe, and how we go about it, is arrogant, but your behavior is mocking and rude. you saw this thread was focused at religious individuals, and yet you came in anyways. to what end? if you choose to be atheist, non-religious, FSG or whatever, hey, fine. no one here was arguing that. you started railing on other people’s beliefs.

@crisw I did answer that, you just didn’t read my response. The bottom line is that we live in a sinful world, there is going to be suffering. Unfortunately, evil may get away with things for a time, but ultimately they have to answer to Christ for what they did.

Do babies have free will? Are they human? Just because they may not fully understand their free will doesn’t mean they don’t have it.

Do animals? I don’t see the relevance to this question, that looks like a whole new thread to me.

@miasmom

I did read your response. it doesn’t give any real answer as to why the innocent suffer more in this world than the guilty do. In addition, people who aren’t Christian suffer just as much as those who are, and, by most Christian doctrines, they will continue to suffer in the afterlife as well. It is a certainty that the total amount of suffering experienced by innocents in this world is far greater than the sum total of people who “deserve it.” Simply saying “We live in a sinful world” doesn’t cut it- if there is any purpose at all for suffering, why is this? Is there any reason that isn’t just a rationalization?

As far as animals, the relevancy is that animals suffer greatly, and they do not, by Christian standards, have free will, commit sins, or go to Heaven. So why do they suffer?

Also, what is your response to the quote from Epicurus?

@crisw – So why do you suppose there is suffering in this world?
All I see is you harassing other people for answering.
Are all of your thoughts merely contentious, or do you have anything of relevance to add?

@fireside
I don’t think I am harassing; these are legitimate questions if someone is to posit that the reason suffering exists is derivable from Christian doctrine. Again, I think it’s more that too many religious folks see any hard questions as “harassment.” In discussions on animal rights, for example, I’ve gotten much more virulent questions than these, and I would never claim that I was being harassed! For that matter, I don’t see most atheists here claim that they are being harassed when hard questions are asked about atheism. I am of the opinion that if you’re going to be vocal about a belief, you ought to be able to have a rational discussion for why you have that belief.

As for suffering-
I don’t have any religious reason for why suffering exists. There is no “reason” that suffering exists other than the fact that all sentient beings evolved the ability to feel pain as a necessary prerequisite for maintaining bodily integrity. There’s no greater purpose in suffering- it just is.

crisw does not harass people, don’t be offended so easily…this is the internet.

@J0E
Thanks, That means a lot- really.

As a bit of history, J0E and I were hardly on the best of terms when we first started having discussions about a year ago! He was one of those with virulent questions on animal rights :>)

Trust me, I am not offended. I just wonder at the mindset of a person who has nothing to offer but to challenge others. Do you also go to threads about computer repair and start questioning why people like Macs over PCs? Or is it only religion that gets you excited?

I wonder it says about that person who can’t simply come to a thread and say, “There’s no greater purpose in suffering- it just is” and instead spends however long you just spent challenging others on their words. I wonder what kind of gain a person is looking for when they do that. Do you think that exposes any arrogance which you seem willing to accuse others of displaying?

Crisw has posted 20% of the posts on this thread and only recently bothered to answer the question. If that were to be examined in the light of Jung’s theory on the Shadow which projects its imperfections on others, it may say something interesting.

@fireside I am going to save your response and cite it whenever someone argues that Fluther members don’t discourage open discussion.

@Ivan hey, what’s the matter, everyone stopped paying you attention in the other thread?

Let’s stay on topic please.

[mod says] Agreed with TCH above. Stay on topic or future posts will be removed.

@Everyone; Yes, me and crisw were in a few heated debates over abortion and animal rights but I never once felt harassed. She is challenging your thoughts, just because you can’t defend them doesn’t mean she is harassing you.

btw, maybe you could try to answer her questions for a change…

@crisw, I saw this clip for the first time before the movie was released in 1977 (I was 11) and it has stuck with me ever since. Now I’m not saying that the screenwriter of “Oh God!” perfectly sums up my beliefs, but I am saying that what he says makes a lot of sense.

I have no way to explain why the innocent sometimes suffer greatly. I do believe that inside those children you mention are blessed souls that will go into the next world more prepared to meet God then any of us can even hope to be. I am not Christian, and I do believe you make an excellent point about the dogma stating that not only are some fated to suffer in this world, but will suffer for all eternity unless they accept Christ as their savior. That never made sense to me and always sounded rather arrogant. It is the primary reason for the independent investigation that led me to a Faith I believe in very strongly.

@Ivan, @fireside has been active on this board long enough for most Flutherers to know he is not discouraging open discussion in his post. I get the impression that he is merely trying to pin down @crisw‘s motives and the point she is trying to make.

That was a great movie, SuperMouse

@crisw – Epicurus seemed to understand that suffering was not a bad thing:

“I have written this letter to you on a happy day to me, which is also the last day of my life. For I have been attacked by a painful inability to urinate, and also dysentery, so violent that nothing can be added to the violence of my sufferings. But the cheerfulness of my mind, which comes from the recollection of all my philosophical contemplation, counterbalances all these afflictions.”

What he seems to be saying to me is that he exercised his free will and lived his life in a manner he felt would benefit others, thus at the end of his life the pain and agony of his condition was greeted with joy.

That sounds like most religious philosophy. Just because someone uses different terminology, doesn’t mean they aren’t talking about the same thing or working towards the same goals.

Maybe he believed that the soul died with the body while others believe there is no soul and others believe that the soul progresses, so what?

I would give you the answer but so many have already.

@miasmom – Most bad things that are happening are NOT a result of sinful people. I once heard a minister (of the religious right) say the 2004 tsunami was caused by sin. Total nonsense and dangerous talk! The only sin was politicians not listening to scientists. Scientists knew that large tsunamis do not only occur in the Pacific Ocean (which already had a warning system at the time).

Rev. Jerry Falwell, a few days after 9/11, provided an insightful explanation:

“I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say ‘you helped this happen.’”

Bless his heart.

@KalWest – On September 14, 2001, Falwell told CNN: “I would never blame any human being except the terrorists, and if I left that impression with gays or lesbians or anyone else, I apologize.”

Obviously the man is a fool and has already marginalized himself.
He doesn’t speak for all religious people.

@KalWest – To me it looks as if Jerry Falwell is the sinner here.

@crisw Regarding your Epicurus comment, we can all construct words to say what we want them to say, if you don’t believe in God and want to believe that construct, that’s your choice. I believe in God and trust His ultimate plan and purpose.

@mattbrowne I think God is bigger than science, since He created it, so I don’t find it impossible to use it for His purposes. God will definitely use natural disasters to get our attention.

@miasmom, that kind of showy sadism is certainly consistent with a God who “takes delight in your ruin and destruction” (Dt. 28:63).

Frankly, I don’t really get the atheists’ argument from evil. If you read the Bible it’s pretty clear that Yahweh himself is evil by any reasonable standard.

I mean, imagine if the god Shiva allowed a demon to torture a dude to win a bet with said demon. When the dude complains to Shiva and asks him why this is happening, Shiva responds “PUNY HUMAN HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME? I MADE MOUNTAINS AND BEAT UP CROCODILES!”

What Christian wouldn’t think Shiva is a dick? Except Shiva never did anything like that. Only Yahweh. Yahweh is also the only deity I know of that commands genocide and threatens to make you eat your own children and miscarriages for disobedience.

@miasmom – God is not Harry Potter. He doesn’t use a magic wand to drown people in a 100-foot tsunami. I believe God created our universe and the way it works. Evolution is creation in progress and plate tectonics (also leading to tsunamis) is a result of the second law of thermodynamics.

No natural disasters, no development. No crisis, no growth. I’ve said this before:

Humanity wouldn’t even exist if nothing bad had happened to our ancestors. They would not have come down their trees and just stayed in their little paradise in Africa. But then something catastrophic happened: large scale climate change. Food shortages. The need to explore uncharted territory. The need to develop language to survive.

So symbolically speaking, God did us a favor by making it hard for us. We evolved. We are here typing characters into a web browser.

@Quingu I find your posts on fluther rather interesting because you are so angry, it’s definitely no way to win an argument. What I infer from that is that you do see truth in the God of Christianity and you so desperately don’t want it to be true. Why else would you spend so much time on these threads. I’m not threatened by your anger. I’m going to choose not to respond to much of what you say in the future though because of your anger and I don’t think arguing will help the situation.

@mattbrowne Thank goodness God is not Harry Potter. He is though, the Creator and does as He pleases. You might not agree or believe, but that doesn’t make it any less true. Someday we will all know.

I’ve shared my opinions and will now move on.

@miasmom

In what context did God “create” science? Science is a process that we invented to understand the universe.

@Ivan – That is a flawed argument, in the context of a Christian’s faith.

To believe God exists one generally also believes that he created us, and also our capability for understanding. Ergo, God also created Science, because he created us with the abilities required to begin investigating and understanding the universe. To believe in God is to believe that he created everything, not that he created us and then we get credit for everything after that, that we invent ourselves. We invented nothing.

@Ivan, that’s also why you can’t use logic to disprove the Christian God. Because the Christian God created logic itself. So if you even try to use logic to disprove Yahweh, you have to first assume that Yahweh exists.

Also, I know you’re going to say “that’s circular!” But all worldviews are circular. The Christian worldview is the only one that’s self-consistent. Remembering, of course, that you can’t use logic to point out that the Trinity and the Bible are logically inconsistent.

(This “transcendental argument” is my favorite apologetic argument.)

@Qingu – Or, you could say, if you’re going to use logic to disprove the existence of Yahweh, you could at least make your arguments logical, however tying yourself up in several layers of sarcasm and confused statements is more fun, right?