What evidences or logical reasons are there for believing in religion in general, Christianity specifically?

Someone asked this question yesterday.

@tinyfaery I asked the question yesterday, but it was the opposite.. what reasons/logical reasons do people have for NOT beleiving in such things. This one asks for reasons now from believers.

none
but religion isn’t about evidence or logical reasoning
and i say that without judgment

@Simone_De_Beauvoir if there are no evidences or reasons then why do many very logical and reasonable people have faith in such things? Not all are cooks or nut cases. I say this respectfully.

@exo20811
because not everything logical people do or believe has to be logical
we love, we hate, we forgive without logic all too often

@exo20811
I think that most people beleive such things because they want to, and their desires outweigh their logical abilities. We all want to believe that we matter, that we are immortal, that we are special. For many people, the desire to believe such things is far more personally important than an ultimate search for truth- especially when such people have religious leaders ardently trying to persuade them that unquestioning faith is a virtue.

Theists are often offended when studies are mentioned showing a strong correlation between higher intelligence and atheism. However, I believe such a correlation exists because more intelligent people are more likely to want to know they “whys” of everything, and are much less likely to believe something just because they want to or because someone tells them to. Once people really start to look at religion, especially Christianity, with the blinders off, i’s pretty obvious that, given the same logical precepts that most people apply to everything in their life except religion, Christianity cannot possibly be true.

If it were logical and based on evidence, why would anyone need faith or belief?

Purpose in Life. Serving others. Sacrificing for
the benifit of others. Expecting Accountability, Honesty,
and, having these conditions satisfied…Love.
Love in any case, but grace and faith in Christ
have resulted in the most prosperous nations,
and opportunities for its citizen, take it
for granted at your peril, Only one generation
separates you from African Canniballism…

@Crusader
“Purpose in Life. Serving others. Sacrificing for
the benifit of others. Expecting Accountability, Honesty,
and, having these conditions satisfied…Love.”

Those are neither evidence nor logic. All can be gained without Christianity.

“grace and faith in Christ
have resulted in the most prosperous nations,”

Evidence, please? In fact, the U.S., the most Christian of developed nations, ranks 22nd on the list of most prosperous nations. Admittedly, the Vatican is first on the list (and we can all imagine where their prosperity comes from…) but second is decidedly-secular Sweden, and none of the rest of the top 10 are especially-secular countries.

“Only one generation
separates you from African Canniballism…”

What in the world are you talking about? This isn’t just not evidence and totally illogical, it’s offensive.

If this counts as evidence or logic for believing in Christianity, no wonder the number of atheists is growing at an unprecedented rate!

http://s182.photobucket.com/albums/x239/macbisch/?action=view&current=jesusjerks.jpg

That’s why I don’t believe!

Crisw; Thank you for your response.
You seek logic and evidence for Love?
Do you believe in Survival of the Fittest perhaps?
Or Survival of the most Intimidating?
We define how our life will be lived collectively
Why the Fear of a Christian messege in school?
Why the Fear of a Christian messege in media?
Why embrace hedonism and masoginy in both?
You cite examples of places that are
Very small in population, America is
More like 50 countries.
Do you Fear God? That is the beginning
of Wisdom, so it is said…
Why are you offended by African Cannibalism?
This is often their culture, and
was in Congo officially until 1907
and unofficially elsewhere…
Many examples of heinous acts occuring
in the world, including the USA
yet it is True that one generation
is all that separates a society of
Just Laws, (not preferencial treatment)
Respect for others, (do unto others as
you would have done until you…)
No one wants to be the victim…Right?
In nature, species often eat eachother,
incest is common, homosexuality exists.
Are we not more than animals?

@Crusader
my my i just can’t hear it enough when people think that sexualities other than straight are somehow dirtier and more animalistic than when a christian screws another up the butt but all’s fine and holy within marriage…

Simone,
If an animist kill humans for food,
Or a pagan kills humans for spirits,
They are following the precepts of their belief,
A Christian-framed government, and
most responsible governments, stops this.

Those who perform sodomy are engaged in
an act of Man, not God. If they are Christian
advocates, then they are hypocrites in this
respect. Their is forgiveness, naturally.
This may be an enjoyable act because of a
childhood experience, etc..God Knows.
Yet embracing these acts without any
sense of wrongdoing is not acceptable to
God.
Its the same dedicated conservative group
such as Islam and Zionist that discourage such
behavior among their own kind yet advocate
it among others…To gain access to the
blessings/wealth of generations of Christ believers…
through the unbelieving daughters and
queered men, (and daughters,) If They do it
they are disowned, you know about hypocrisy?

The fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Wisdom.

^^ Is this what they mean when they say , “speaking in tongues”? ^^

Anyway…there is NO logic to support religion. It’s a faith-based business. That’s why you must “believe”.

The evidence is Clearly Stated,
Societies with a preponderence of
(generally Protestant, or conservative Catholic,)
believers is more prosperous, more safe, and less corrupt,
They are also generally more tolerant of
Accountable, Honest, Charitable citizens of other
ethnic backgrounds than societies that are not.

There are three specific reasons:
1. The world about us. Science and observation confirm the complexity of the world, galaxies and creatures. It is impossible for man to recreate what exists in this world. A human, the tiniest micro organism. How can we explain trees, water, oceans, land. Space probes to other planets show there is nothing like us in our galaxy.
2. Think about the perfection of our existence. Closer to the sun we would melt. Farther away we would freeze. The tilt of the earth. The shield of the moons gravitational force to protect the earth from meteorites. The statistical probability is beyond comprehension.
3. The creatures – the complexity of the eye, blood, breathing, the heart, our whole internal makeup. How could this be by accident.

Another proof for me is the Bible. 44 authors, 66 books, a consistent story with no contradictions. 3 languages, written in times of war, peace, prosperity, poverty. Written over a 1500 year period. How is it possible that it could be written with no internal errors, one story, beginning to end?

There are over 350 prophecies in the OT that point to the Messiah and to Christ. Prophecies that foretold his birth, death, timing of his appearance. All without error.

It is harder to look at the evidence and not believe than to believe.

@guybee NOW we are getting somewhere. All too often people say there is no evidence, but surely they jest. If there was NOTHING absolutely nothing to consider, intelligent people of the ages would simply dismiss religion generally, Christianity specifically. The answers people post on here clearly show ones bias. Thank you for being brave to post answers to the question regardless of those who do not believe or claim ALL religions to be false. As if they had ALL knowledge. Circumstantial evidence for faith in general is what we are after. Religion carries doubt for the sake of faith&belief.

@guybee
1. The existence of complexity is not, in and of itself, evidence for a god. The god of the gaps argument fails because it doesn’t provide any real explanations- when faced when something people cannot yet explain, the religious may say “goddidit” while science looks for answers. And, of course, more and more, science is finding them. So many things- lightning, earthquakes, storms- that were once seen as God-caused are now entirely explainable as natural phenomena; there is no reason or evidence to believe that this is not true of every other complex thing.
2. This argument is usually known as the anthropic argument, and it also fails. There’s a really great dissection of it in Dawkin’s The God Delusion but suffice to say- obviously, we are here, and thus at least one world exists that will support us. Given the billions and billions of worlds out there, it’s not all that improbable.
3. No one claims it’s by accident. This is a creationist misunderstanding; evolution is in no way accidental. Mutation provides the variation that natural selection acts upon.

As for the Bible- if you think it’s without contradiction, you think in error. I am sure Qingu will step in on this one :>D

@Jeruba “If it were logical and based on evidence, why would anyone need faith or belief?”

If God(s) depending on ones’ belief made the universe, and we see order, laws of nature, etc and can clearly/logically explain those things, we would have circumstantial evidence of intelligence, would we not? The element of faith is simpler than what most make it out to be… faith that you’ll get a paycheck from work – based on past experience and contractual agreements, a child having faith in a mother and father who love them… this is the type of faith most believers express to have in God(s). And so it begs the question, what do these beleivers based their faith on… what circumstantial evidence is there to consider. Circumstantial evidence doesn’t meant that it can be proven %100 but rather there is enough to consider or lack there of to make a reasonable, rational decision on the issue of faith and God(s).

@exo20811
So where is the evidence you speak of? “Evidence” isn’t simply making claims that aren’t backed up by anything. “Evidence” isn’t asking leading questions. Where is your “evidence” that would convince any scientist or rational thinker?

A truly rational person, one who values truth over the satisfaction of comfortable beliefs, will be the first to admit that if you provide real evidence that something exists, beliefs will change. That is, after all, how science works.

When it comes to religion, that evidence isn’t there. There’s no more real evidence that Christianity is true than that Zoroastrianism or Santeria is., However, I don’t imagine you believe in either.

Ok, crisw, well research responses, if God
does not exist and is not anthropomorphic
How do you explain the Hand of God photo
taken by the Hubble telescope on April 6, 2009?
It appears quite authentic, perhaps too much
so too be a coincidence? Particularly at
an epoch when your ‘Evolution’ religion of Darwinism
is becoming more and more mainstream…?
A messege perhaps? Historically such cosmic
visions were a prelude to considerable change,
for better or worse…

Also, crisw…

Did you know that Darwin believed that the
Anglo-Saxon race was the Superior of All?
Strange how his beliefs have been co-opted
by those, mostly of other ethnic backgrounds,
for personal advancement…Either you
believe Darwin or you do not.,..

@crisw I have flagged your responses because you are obviously NOT trying to answer the question. You have contributed nothing to the question of WHY or What evidences believers have to base their faith in. THis is NOT about proving or disproving individuals but having some respect to let people SHARE their answers as to what ultimately convinced them of their faith REGARDLESS if you personally believe or not or if you feel they have mistated facts/evidence.

@exo20811
“If God(s) depending on ones’ belief made the universe, and we see order, laws of nature, etc and can clearly/logically explain those things, we would have circumstantial evidence of intelligence, would we not?”

No. I can just as easily believe that a flying spaghetti monster created the order. I can’t infer creation from the appearance of design.

“The element of faith is simpler than what most make it out to be… faith that you’ll get a paycheck from work – based on past experience and contractual agreements…

So what tangible evidence do you have? I can show you my pay stubs.

@exo20811

“There aren’t any” is a perfectly legitimate response.

Hard questions aren’t “an attack.”

Crisw;

Have you the courage to google ‘Hand of God…?’

@crisw Just stop :) You’re looking for a debate and that is NOT what this is about. If you want a debate, send me a private message with your email and you and I can discuss this at GREAT detail offline. Let’s get back to the question and if you have NOTHING of value to add…. well then thanks and have a good day.

And your answer of “there aren’t any” does not answer the question. Surely there are since there ARE beleivers who claim their is again REGARDLESS of your beliefs. Thanks for answering.

Organized religions (Christianity) give people a vehicle to better tap into a feeling of interconnectedness, nothing wrong with that. If they need structure, names, faces and stories to get there then let them if it helps them live better and be better in their communities and families.

hungry…Yes, partially true..It (Christianity) also dimishes
angst towards others for perceived injustice,
ethnic/lifestyle difference, balanced with
an empathy for all and particularly kind, accountable
and honest individuals.

@Crusader: would Christ recognize modern Christians or Christianity? Everyone always asks that and I kind of think Christ among us would run to a cave a hide out. Would Christ back the Eastern Church or the Roman Catholics? What about all the other denominations?

Superficially you might attempt to have some faith based on the good that those in a religious community strive for.. live for.. attempt to achieve. Too many times you hear the statistics on the number of “christians” in prison or the number of “christians” who get divorced or holy cow religion started so many wars (which is actually much fewer than people claim) or pick-your-hypocrisy.

Do you often hear about the pastor who dedicates his weekends to prison ministry or the church that puts together an event to raise money for the homeless or pick-your-benevolent-act? Are the good things ignored in order to win the argument of the day? Often, I believe, they are. If someone were to truly examine the quiddity of “religion”.. they would discover that it is centered around benevolence (depending on the religion.. we’re talking christianity here I suppose).. centered on bettering oneself.. centered on something pure enough.. divine enough to inspire the total reconstruction of a person drowning in evil into a person alive with love.

For me that’s evidence. No, it’s not the kind you write on paper and put in a textbook.. or the kind that is so blatant that people don’t even bother discussing it.. but at the very least, I think, it warrants open minded investigation. Upon investigation.. (with an open heart).. I believe people will find the “evidence” they need to at least understand why people have faith.

Interesting that there was a question specifically asked about why people don’t believe yet certain people are here speaking for why others shouldn’t or hypothesizing why they do.
It seems that having one question to voice their dislike of religion was not enough.

Hungry…
Thank you for yor response, very astute and appropriate
questions, ‘an unexamined life is a life not worth living..’

Yes, well, as far as Christ hiding in a cave, perhaps
that is accurate, to a point, but his passion for
positive change and salvation of others would
be the overriding principle of his life. His unconditional
love of All children unconditionally under the age of eight,
would be universal. After this age we Are accountable to
God, and by association, Jesus. Jesus would also enjoy
periods of solitude and silent reflection for prayer….

As far as his preferences…The Heart, (and behavior,) of the individual is the primary emphasis, yet, those practicing apostille-like denominations honestly, with love and accountability would be favored also.

Examples,

Eastern Orthodox, Mormon, Christian, Lutheran,
Episcopalian, Catholics too as conservatives,
Though Jesus would want an Unpaid Married Clergy.
(Small number of marginally compensated administrators/
perhaps)

@exo20811
crusader’s answers aren’t any showing evidence either..so if you tell off crisw, you should tell off crusader as well…capitalizing words like love and fear and hand in god or some crap isn’t providing evidence

where’s seVen when you need him

Your question is leading. It doesn’t encourage a discussion as much as a sounding board for your opinion.
The implied premise is that there are logical reasons for believing in religion. This has not been established yet in this discussion.

To believers everything is proof, to non-believers no proof is good enough.

The problem with your question is that Christians don’t require worldly proof. It is believing in something beyond this world that does not fit into the constraints of Earth as we know it.

@SeventhSense The word evidence is always the hang up with such conversations.. living strictly by the dictionary in this sense is living in a closed box imho. Dictionaries will tell you what a daisy is by definition… perhaps tell you the pronunciation.. but you won’t truly know a daisy until you’ve touched one.. smelled one..

because it says so in the Bible… what more proof could anyone need other than that?

@NaturalMineralWater
It doesn’t have to be dictionary definition but there’s just this lack of respect and/or patience that screams from these questions. I think the difference is that one allows the other to have influence over their opinions as much as being influenced. Even George Carlin had been known to concede that there might be a Higher Intelligence when he was intelligently engaged.

@SeventhSense I see what you’re saying.. and I kind of get the impatience sometimes.. such questions are the most pesky.. mind numbing questions we’ll ever have in life and it often seems that no matter how it is worded the given answers don’t suffice… and so the same question just keeps popping up with a different countenance each time..I think that’s understandable.

Furthermore, know ye that God has created in man the power of reason whereby man is enabled to investigate reality. God has not intended man to blindly imitate his fathers and ancestors. He has endowed him with mind or the faculty of reasoning by the exercise of which he is to investigate and discover the truth; and that which he finds real and true, he must accept. He must not be an imitator or blind follower of any soul. He must not rely implicitly upon the opinion of any man without investigation; nay, each soul must seek intelligently and independently, arriving at a real conclusion and bound only by that reality. The greatest cause of bereavement and disheartening in the world of humanity is ignorance based upon blind imitation. It is due to this that wars and battles prevail; from this cause hatred and animosity arise continually among mankind.
(Abdu’l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity)

Were the peoples of every nation to observe that which hath been mentioned, the matter would be made simple unto them, and such words and allusions would not withhold them from the Ocean of the names and attributes of God. And had the people known this truth, they would not have denied God’s favours, nor would they have risen against, contended with, and rejected His Prophets.
(Baha’u’llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries)

The wise find peace on hearing the truth, like a deep, clear, undisturbed lake.
(Buddhist, Dhammapada – Sayings of the Buddha 1 (tr. J. Richards))

lol So the existance of a super nova is the proof that God is real Crusader? come on now… it’s a pretty picture yes, but let’s get real here, just because some one gave it a religious name doesn’t mean it’s evidence. There’s a planet named Mars, does that mean the Romans were right about the God of War?

And Exo, how is Cris attacking anyone? he’s asking people to clarify, he’s not being insulting in any way shape or form, your inability to answer his questions does not mean he’s attacking you.

Psst, Crisw is a she

I agree with what @guybee said and I would also add to that the change in the disciples before and after Jesus’ death. Before he died they messed up all the time and just didn’t seem to understand or get it, but after he died and rose again they were completely changed. They spoke boldly about what they believed and were willing to die for it. Either they were crazy or they knew first hand that Jesus accomplished what he said he would. That’s pretty powerful.

There can’t be any evidence, it would undermine faith. Believe what ever you want to or how ever you were raised to believe.

Aboynamed…said…‘Theres a planet named Mars, does
that mean the Romans were right about the God of War?

Thank you for your response.
Actually, historically when Mars is in opposition to
the Earth, their tend to be me conflicts, internationally
and domestically, throughout history. Coincidence? Perhaps.
And the Supernova happens to be shaped like a hand
with a perfect backdrop of space to frame it
and a red nebula to contrast it. Coincidence? Perhaps.
Although if pure coincidence is the only reasoning
then life here on Earth was surely against the
odds at 10 the the 74th power. Statistically as close
to impossible as you can be…Coincidence…?
The Hand to me is more than confrimation of God
It is confirmation of an anthropomorphic God.

Also in terms of Christ-based churches,
I would unhappily need to remove Episcopalian from
the list yet add Presbyterian and perhaps some Charismatic
also.

Any had an opportunity to Google, ‘Hand of God?’

Well, according to Michael Shermer, people believe in things that make them feel good, for whatever reason. Religion, UFOs, ghosts, guardian angels, racial superiority, etc.

As for there being more conflicts when the Earth and Mars are in alignment, do you have scientific proof to back up the claim? I’d like to see some peer reviewed scientific statistics. That’s like saying there are more violent crimes or babies born during a full moon. These are cases of selective memory, not actual proof. Humans are pattern seeking animals, we find patterns where none exist, even in supernovae that look like the hand of a supreme deity. I googled it, and while it looks hand-like in its formation, it proves nothing. From any other angle, I doubt it looks like it does from this particular one. This is as much proof of anything extraterrestrial as the Face on Mars mountain image from a couple decades ago.

Like I said, people believe what they want to believe because it makes them feel good. If that’s what floats your boat, good for you. Personally, I find the universe fascinating enough without imagining fairies at the bottom of the garden.

yes I’m well aware of that image, Crusader… take a look at this one as well…
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/04/firefox-logo-sp.html
I suppose that means some devine being prefers Mozilla over E-explorer…
do you see what I’m getting at here?

*Sigh…God loves you all…

and that’s your response?

so far I’ve seen plenty of people post very sound arguements, but all you’ve come up with is a couple statements with more holes in it than the iraqi navy….

There is no scientific evidence for the existence of God. Neither is there scientific evidence that God doesn’t exist. Logical reasoning and mathematical systems do have their limitations. For some statements we will never know whether they are true or false (a consequence of the incompleteness theorems). I believe in God, but it’s only a belief, nothing more. Others don’t and that’s fine with me.

Religions and Christianity are not only about God. They are also about value systems and ethical principles. But social guidance does not necessarily have to come from religions. There are plenty of good alternatives.

@Crusader The statistical approach of determining the odds of our existence is impossible to get correct. In hindsight the probability is one. We exist, therefore the probability of us to exist is inherently 100%. You cannot determine probabilities in hindsight like this.

To say that the conditions that made it possible for us to exist mean we were planned to exist is making an enormous leap of logic.

@exo20811 Since the question asks specifically for logical reasons I don’t think it is inappropriate to show the errors in logic in previous answers. To let them stand as logical is fallacious. Crisw was simply examining the errors in logic and bringing them to light.

Shuttle, thank you for you assertion;

What are the terms of this debate, are objectively analyzed historical Social, Political, and Economic contexts are not relevant?

@Crusader If the historical contexts are accurate, and the logic to link these to the existence of a specific religious deity exist and is non-faulty, then by all means make your case. Evidence in itself proves nothing though. A logical framework must exist to connect physical phenomena to their supposed cause. In the case of faith, this logical framework does not exist. Faith circumvents the requirement of logic to believe in something. As Crisw and mattbrowne have said, it is faith.

Faith resolving authority,
By all logical rights, the more ancient,
technologically advanced cultures should have
Claimed authority, faith or not, yes?

@Crusader I’m not sure I’m following your question. Authority of what over who? What does the phrase “faith resolving authority” have to do with the rest of your statement?

Faith resolves to authority (grace by God)
Authority over ones self, and other nations.
As, Christianity, properly practiced, is the
most fair and balanced and blessed of all belief
systems because the Living Son of the Living God
presides over it.

Why do you believe that Christianity is the most fair and balanced belief system, and what does fair and balanced have to do with truth?

Shuttle, very perceptive and relevant Q’s thank you.

Well, volumes have been written about both, and, not to be

evasive, but the principles for individual and collective

secular practice and accoutability are quite relevant

and practiced to this day in most modern societies.

Ablutions, for one, protected Jews from the plague

in large measure, for example, though not Christians

generally, Christ adhered to much, if not most

of the Old testement, (stoning adulterous women a

notable exception, among others…) There is allowance

and acceptance for all groups, regardless of background

There is personal accountability, and collective

responsibility. There are secular consequences,

(excommunication,) as well as spiritual consequence,

(damnation,) There are government models inherent

and military strategy. Their is a Love of all

but a hate of sin. There are mechanisms to

propagate the race, and warnings of destruction

to the wicked and spiteful. The list goes on…

To me, fair and balanced is synonymous with truth.

Why do you believe that what you’ve explained is fair?

Fair is ultimately subjective. I might believe that preventing my younger daughter from going on a date after 10 is fair yet allow my older daughter to go on a date after 10. Is this fair? Fair is not necessarily equality.

Volumes have been written about artificial intelligence robots rebelling against their masters. Should I believe that this will happen? You must use logic to connect phenomena with their cause.

Hello Shuttle;

Yes, Fairness and Truth cannot be discussed without

Justice. I remember the Plato’s Republic discussion

on this topic…Thramacacles extolled that the

Strong decide what Justice is, no more and no less.

In the end, Socrates agreed that they had

no operational defination of Justice. For truth

and fairness is a subjective condition decided

by the Powerful. Jesus was the Servant Son of God,

Not a God-King, a God-Servant. Thus resolving the

inherent inconsistancy of self-serving authorities

defining what it means to be Truthful, Fair, Balanced,

and Just. This represents powerful symbolism as

well as contradition of expected human behavior

in favor of a more enlightened approach,

an appoach adopted by Christian servants

As Well As Kings. Kings who Truely Served,

and were not just Served by their subjects,

Because they themselves were Subject to a

Higher Authority, The Servant-God-Son, Who, in

turn was subject to the Creator-God.

@BBSDTfamily
@Crusader
To believers everything is proof, to non-believers no proof is good enough.
I believe in Higher Intelligence. The only difference is that the God mentioned here is a speck in the eye of my God. He’s not a man. He’s not a despot. He’s larger than your metaphors of Father Son to also include Mother. He/she has no sex at all in fact. He is inseparable from everything and everyone in creation. He includes all and I will show you countless examples of this God from countless books including but not limited to the bible.
Fear of being on the losing side is what you fear. And this is a very ego driven pursuit. If you have faith then there is nothing to fight or prove. Nothing real can be threatened and nothing unreal exists.

@SeventhSense I find it interesting that you pretend to know what I fear and yet you do not even know my name. The last sentence you stated is true, but who is fighting or trying to prove anything here? I was not trying to prove anything with my comment, just state that Christians do not need the “proof” that the moderator was asking for.

@BBSDTfamily
That was more directed at the Inquisitor Crusader.

@BBSDTfamily
So since it’s not fear what is it smug disdain?
To believers everything is proof, to non-believers no proof is good enough.
This is just skirting the issue. That’s just the way it is, we’ve always been like that…

For earthlings who may come to an understanding through their reasoning maybe you could indulge them. Go out on a limb. I love the amount of hardcore believers who are so sure that they would sacrifice their life and limb for the Lord yet won’t even lay their will and ego at the altar.

I love how every single religious debate that is posted on this site is combated by the same 6 or 7 assholes. They always say the same thing no matter what the question. We never make any head way. FAIL!!!

@evelyns_pet_zebra, Well, according to Michael Shermer, people believe in things that make them feel good, for whatever reason. Religion, UFOs, ghosts, guardian angels, racial superiority, etc.

though I don’t know if the fault lies in your paraphrasing or him (even though I have read his writing), I wouldn’t call that an argument.

answers in general make us feel better (usually). history and mathematics also, on some level, for example, satisfies us, or no one would do the research. so should we discount those as valueless because they address a need to feel better because we have some answers?

I think of the question as the itch and the answer (of whatever kind, Michael Shermer-approve or otherwise) as the scratch. the itch, by the way. I don’t believe in dismissing UFO’s or ghosts, by the way. I won’t got into my rant about that. one taster though… not everyone who believes in UFO’s believes they come from space. I believe in them and don’t think they do.

@Ria777

I think the difference between what Shermer is talking about and what you’re talking about is that by “believe,” Shermer means having faith in something for which there is no concrete evidence. This is different from history, math, etc, where there is evidence for the answers that are found.

OK since I have to help you guys in your own defense, I’ll offer this link as a starting point on the benefits of prayer in a A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit

@SeventhSense
Of course, that study has received a great deal of criticism due to its poor methodology and has been refuted by later studies that actually showed intercessory prayer to be harmful.

Well I wasn’t supporting the article as much as giving them a boost here. :)

crisw;
Anyone can falsify study results, its all about the control group and the experiment group and a controlled environment,
which defeats the purpose of obtaining evidence in an unbiased
fashion not influenced by the observer. Natural observation
is quite effective to founter the observer bias, but is
difficult to quantify for one study to the next as the
environment is the equivilant in each…Psche 101.
Thus we resolve back, once again, to faith…But not
entirely…as earlier postings have demostrated a
measure of objective results with a high probability
of truth based upon the strenger of the position,
cogency..etc…

@Crusader
So do some homework. Come on.