Why is Aristotle-father of logic-quoted as saying, 'Democracy is rule of the indigent?'?

My brother thinks he’s a chicken – we don’t talk him out of it because we need the eggs.
—Groucho Marx

“Should accept”? You seem to think that Aristotle is some sort of infallible figure.

Aristotle also had a lot of interesting thoughts about physics, too, but logicians and secular liberal constitutionalist [sic] do not accept them either, political expediency or no.

cwilbur wins. Thread over.

@cwilbur

Cherry-picking ‘appropriateness’ of He who defines your very core values, is so very expected from political expediency oriented liberal hypocrites.

@Crusader

No, analyzing each piece of someone’s work independently and objectively, accepting what the evidence shows to be true and rejecting what the evidence shows to be false, that is what is to be expected from liberals.

@Crusader is a lilberal a tiny itsy bitsy liberal? if so, it should be: lil’beral. If not, typo.

@Ivan,
Who defines your ‘objectivity’ in this case? Liberals? By definition you will Not be objective, you will be liberal in your definition. Where is the independent analysis in an environment rife with political expediencey and patronage, answer, there is None.

Todays social conservative and fiscal moderates are the closest thing appoxiamating objective independent analysis, sadly they are an extreme minority, not represented by either prominent political party, and generally villified and demonized by both sides, the establishment and its lackeys do Not want objective independent analysis, have you all not understood this yet? Or are you too busy enjoying the fruits of the cherries you have picked?

@Crusader: Aristotle does not define my very core values.

You are aware that Aristotle also held that heavy objects fall faster than light ones? If I am not expected to believe his views on physics without question, why should I believe his views on politics? (Especially when both are clearly wrong?)

You guys are talking to a brick wall on this one. This guy probably thinks dinosaurs walked with humans, and the Universe is centered at Earth.

Don’t waste your time on fueling this psycho.

Aristotle thought that only the rich and leasured should rule because they don’t have to be concerned with anything other than ruling. He hated democracy because he thought that labor degraded men and made them unfit to rule. Logic had nothing to do with it; it’s elitism, pure and simple.

@cwilbur
Ok, I will concede that Aristotle’s positions on everything do not necessarily define your core values on everything. The subject in the thread is clearly social science, not hard science, ascribing Newtonian physics principles to a Greek in the Golden Age is quite ridiculous and absurd.
My position is that Christian opposers and all who would assault social conservatives in general, utilize the empiricism model exclusively, as defined by Aristotle, Including this particular quotation, a social science commentary…your ‘new’ society is an amalgamation of only the wisdom of historical figures that Benifits you Personally, and is politically expedient. Not wisdom at all, Fascism.

“the fruit of the cherries you picked”? like my mind grapes?

Wait – there aren’t any liberal Christians?

@eponymoushipster not according to this nut job there aren’t. He’s like Rush Limbaugh mixed with that one crazy pastor guy in Utah. With just a dash of super crazy.

@Harp

What is affirmative action and creating a ‘special’ class of priviledge for homosexuals if not ‘elitism, pure and simple’ how many ‘minority’ or homosexuals would prefer to labor themselves if they could receive ‘special’ contract dispensations to be the ‘leisure’ class of supervisors? How is this not the Same result, consistant again, with Aristotle, Harp, again, ‘minorities’ and homosexuals benefit personally.

@westy81585
Your attacks on my character, here, as before define you as the insecure person you are, as does all the assumptions of my beliefs. You are the Roemhe protegy, Hitler would be proud.

@eponymoushipster

Socially liberal Christians either never bothered to read the bible, or refuse to practice what they preach. There Are financially liberal Christians who are deceived to vote for liberal for economic reasons. And liberal Catholics who are generally content with absolution of their actions on Sunday, and being a believer for exactly one hour a week during sacrament-the reason for the Protestant movement.

@Crusader: Let me make your argument crystal clear.

Because Aristotle wrote one of the earliest treatises on logic, anyone who uses logic to poke holes in @Crusader‘s lunatic arguments must clearly believe every word that Aristotle wrote, including Aristotle’s opinion of democracy. See, logic is used to oppress Christian nutjobs, and Aristotle started logic, so Aristotle is bad.

(We’ll just ignore for the moment that Aristotle was the foundation that Abelard, Ockham, and Aquinas built their theology on—otherwise we might have to acknowledge the false dichotomy of theology versus logic. Make sure nobody tells the Jesuits, or we’ll be here arguing all night, possibly in Latin.)

But. Remember that by @Crusader logic, Aristotle = logic, and logic ≠ Christian, and since Christian = good, logic = bad (this in itself does a great deal to explain @Crusader‘s posts), and thus because logic = Aristotle, Aristotle = bad. Got that? Now, also by @Crusader logic, Christian = conservative, so since Christian = good, conservative = good, and thus liberal = bad. And because Aristotle = bad and liberal = bad, therefore Aristotle = liberal. Still with me?

Well, that sucks, because we’re using logic here, and logic is clearly un-Christian, so we’re all going to Hell. But we’ll ignore that for a moment.

Now, forget what Christ said about loving your neighbor as yourself or what Paul said about how we are all equal in Christ Jesus. Wanting to ensure the legal rights for everyone makes people that @Crusader would otherwise joyfully discriminate against (and feel that he was Biblically justified, no less—again, forget loving your neighbor, actually having to behave that way would be logical and thus a fast ticket to hellfire and damnation) into a special class—because if they weren’t special, he could be as nasty as he liked. Also, if you’re liberal, you’re damned. We’re not really sure why, because we threw logic out the window a while back, but if @Crusader says so, loudly and often, it must be true.

Further, despite having read the Bible and studied it myself, and having stymied @Crusader with hermeneutics (although I will admit, I was using logic, that tool of the liberal-homosexual hegemony, so clearly he was only unable to answer for fear of his immortal soul), I am clearly not a good Christian, because otherwise the Holy Spirit in the form of a televangelist would explain to me how to think.

Wait, is that inductive reasoning? I am so going to Hell.

Does that make things clearer?

@Crusader and the religious right doesn’t read it either. otherwise, they wouldn’t be in politics in the first place.

@Crusader

“Socially liberal Christians either never bothered to read the bible, or refuse to practice what they preach.”

I’m actually going to agree with you here. However, that says more about the validity of the Bible than it does about the validity of liberals’ opinions.

@westy81585

Ah, the ipso facto, you are convinced of you duplicitousness as any hypocrite liberal Catholic, or communist/fascist inquisitor/interrogator propagandist, bravo! Well, I think I give you too much credit, though you seem to have plenty of time and considerable energy, will concede that. You a have a nice leisure position provided by mandated legislated federally employment either directly or indirectly I would speculate. So did Roehme.

Your position I could say is specious, incogent, and weak, in terms of the original assertion, ‘why is it that Aristotle said Democratic government is the rule of the indigent?’

You have provided us with a good definition, very similar to Athens of Old Greece, liberal homosexual hegemony and an indigent mass population-Athenians enjoyed pedestry too, that is to say, finding an attractive 7–8 year old boy, paying the parents, and effectively having a sex slave for the next 10 years. Ah, true love…I hear Michael Jackson ‘loved’ the children he paid for too…

And your rambling diatrible about my perception of logic as a Christian, especially in the context of the thread quote is entirely inaccurate, I Approve of the quote. Try taking a deep breath, and watch your blood pressure, really.

‘Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and soul, and thy neighbor as thyself.’ True. So is ‘be angry at sin.’ The previous statement is prefaced by, ‘Hate the sin, but love the sinner.’ I love the hypocrites no less as people, or the racist extemists, but I hate the sin.’

Also, ‘do not be unevenly yoked with the unbeliever,’ if you do not practice what Jesus preached you Are an unbeliever. And be cautious about whom you give friendship too, not to the wicked, for evil company corrupts good habits.’

Fortunately not Everyone is ascibing to the soundbite generation, out of context/and/or incompete John Stewart Steve Cobert style ADD media propaganda…yet…

@Ivan
No, it says more about the validity of the pesuasiveness of government, media, and peers. As well as the inherent difficulty of being perfect in a country/world that gives accolades to hedonists and hypocrites.

Steven Colbert teaches Sunday School.

So I ran this quip through Google Translator:

“I don’t agree with you. You are a Nazi. I have no idea what logic is. Not only are you a Nazi, but you’re a pedophile too, and you have poor taste in pop music. My arguments are so confusing that even I can’t keep track of which side I’m on. Except that I’m pretty sure you’re not a Christian, because you’re a Nazi, a pedophile, and Michael Jackson, and they only yoke themselves unevenly when they’re practicing BDSM. Fortunately, the 700 club is still on the air, so I don’t need to have my prejudices challenged.”

@cwilbur

LOL, we do need a Crusader translator.

@cwilbur

Classic oversimplification and straw man. I trust your minions found this amusing? Yes, I suppose you conveniently forget that Nazi means Social Democrat-Your deliberate efforts to confuse and equivicate are equalled only by your ascerbic wit, very impressive! But then all’s fair in love and war, (for the unbeliever,) right?

Also, your definition of my racism, is simply, equal rights, for all based on merit, not elevated through an artificial system of political expediency and hypocrisy.

If justice and equality for All not just self-described ‘minorities’ and homosexuals is discrimination, then, yes, I discriminate. You Hate,for profit and power sake, and, (under this definition of justice and equality for all and merit based society that elevates the capable and the hard-woking,) I discriminate.

No, @Crusader, it’s classic mockery.

And I really don’t think I have minions. Otherwise, I could just snap my fingers and someone else would take out the garbage and feed the cats.

And, to be honest, I’m mocking you because it’s far more entertaining than trying to argue with you, because the only coherent parts of your screeds are the ad hominem attacks.

“minions” – you keep using this word, but i don’t think it means what you think it means.

@eponymoushipster: They’re those little green and white things you chop up and put into salads.

(Remember when @Crusader found out I was a Christian and thought he had found an ally? Hah!)

@cwilbur ah yes. i enjoy them with chinese food, too.

@cwilbur

Well at least you have good taste in domestic animals. And, minions you have, all liberal talking heads, (or keyboards,) do, it is the nature of liberalism. True social conservative Christian/Catholic are minions of Christ, this is why Rome attempted to erradicate them, (and why in an ultra-liberal anything-goes for profit and sensationalist society like America is increasingly becoming,) they are and will continue to be persecuted. The leading talking heads/keyboards have difficulty in controlling the hearts and minds of the believers, just as Ancient Rome did. The liberals then wanted both the Money, Power, And the Love and Adoration of Everyone All the Time, sound familiar? Difficult to accomplish this with those scheming, pesky, downer Christians around…Right?

Actually, no, Rome tried to eradicate the Christians because they were social radicals. They weren’t considered conservatives then—they were upending the social order by saying that wealth didn’t matter and that joining the army was the wrong thing to do.

This is a stark contrast to modern-day dominionist Christians, who are all about gaining money and worldly power and using it to project force all over the world.

Also, since you seem to have a better idea of where my minions are than I do, could you tell them to head over to my place? I have to get the living room in order tonight so that when my friends come over tomorrow to plot the best way to subvert marriage, we can do so in comfort.

@eponymoushipster

“Minion, a favorite or protege, especially those of a monarch or prince at a royal court. Unlike a henchman or lackey although subordinate to his patron a minion is likely to be of noble birth and raised by nobility, and is more of a companion or confidant rather than a servant or bodyguard.”

Perhaps I gave you too much credit with the noble references, but I respect your respective intelligence, even as I disagree with you assertions.

Unlike you all, I do no make efforts to insult your intelligence at every opportunity, yet, I am grateful to have the opportunity to make corrections, and accept Constructive criticism readily.

Also, you’re not being mocked and “persecuted” because you’re Christian, for the most part. You’re being mocked because of your nutty ideas about politics and religion and your generally incoherent and incomprehensible writing style.

@Crusader you’re a special little boy.

@westy81585

Actually, yes, I agree with you on one point, they were social radicals, (and are,) and yes, they were/are conservatives. According to the definition conservative and liberal, The Roman wanted Status Quo Liberalism, a government the US is not famililiar with, yet, but will soon be. It is still liberalism when compared with Christian values.

There was far more than wealth involved or military service in the Christian upheaval, it was about decency, a converted Roman senators daughter, Perpetua, willingly sacrificed herself in the Arena to martyr herself in the name of Christ so as to present sympathy in the ruling Liberal ‘elite.’ Until then the death by painful public spectacle had not touched aristocratic blood…

Stark contrast to what? White anglo saxon protestants have been marginalized economically and socially such that a reflexive action of aggression on both fronts is a natural by product. A natural by product of a cynical, heartless, Godless liberal elite, more interested in spectacle than truth, like the pre-Christian Romans, exactly. Furthermore, all world wars have been perpetuated by liberals or centrists, not true Christians. Also, 99% of Whites in America never profited from slavery or engaged in genocide against anywone, merely pawns of liberal and/or centrist elites, who have maintained their wealth and authority at the expence of generations of white protestants 99% of which never had blood on their hands.

You are as Christian as Roehm himself, SSA all the Way! Hide behind your obviously self-serving piecemeal version of Christianity, (Jesus when questioned about the relevancy of the old testement by the Pharasees, ‘I would change not one jot nor tittle,’ exception, murdering a woman for infidelity, or a child for disobedience,)

Yours is a religion of Lies-Not Christianity. Go ahead support the legitimization of homosexual marriage, or ‘subversion’ as you cynically phrased it, now that they have the money, power, and authority, and sympathy next it will be Generations of homosexuals to rule with soft purple velvet gloves…tucked inside a spiked gauntlet..

And, for someone that has been published, and the recipient of high mark in all my university writing classes, (even those where the liberal faculty disliked me for not Agreeing with them-though I had to fight for every paper,) well, my writing style cohenency, ‘incomprehensable’ writing style, ‘nutty’ ideas about politics and religion must have been valued evidently…I could be Chancear, or Shakespeare himself, and you would say the same thing, oh ye hypocrite.

@Crusader is English your first language?

1. Aristotle was an elitist
2. He lived 2500 years ago, we should not judge him by our standards. All Greek philosophers had slaves (as did the first “freedom-fighting” revolutionaries in 1776, which is only yesterday in historical terms). They also had symposia, and orgies, and yes, they often had sex with each other (something that for their society was acceptable behaviour).
3. Aristotle is just one human, whose theories you can respect or discard. His words and ideas are not a guideline by which to live our lives.
4. Aristotle is a great figure in world history, and perhaps one of the greatest thinkers of all time (as well as a lot more influential than people think) for 2 reasons: the first is that he lived all those centuries ago, so it’s amazing how far people had reached back then. The second is that, due to the Middle Ages, this arcane knowledge was lost, and rediscovered during the Enlightenment Project. One of the people they discovered was Aristotle, and his ideas have been the foundation of all Western thought. Our universities, legal systems and even the programming language used to create this website would be very different today if it weren’t for him. That’s what makes him important. His political ideas have been obsolete for at least one of the last 25 centuries though.

@eponymoushipster Actually Crusader is a bot. It generates sentences by putting random words together based on an algorithm. But the CIA told me not to reveal that fact, so let’s all pretend we don’t know ;)

@Jack79

1.) Aristotle was a Realist-technology has changed Not people.
2.) Slaves were more like house companions, and shared meals with the masters, still servitude, but often a better lot than abject poverty in freedom, unless on was a little boy sex slave/catamite. Though the boys father had to agree to the transaction.
3.) Aristotles was the personal instructor/inspiration for Alexander the Great, as well as the scientific method, botany, and logic, among many others famous quotes and sayings. To imply that his elucidations are not guidelines for behavior is as shortsighted as it is naive. Greece prospered with independent states and varied government in a very loose, and often hostile, confederation, even against totalitarian empires with far more population and resources.
4.) Aristotle is and shall continue to be regarded as a great thinker, for the reasons you specify and me own and others. However, to believe his political ideas are obsolete as an educated individual is at best willful ignorance, and at worst, a deliberate effort to utilize selective belief systems and values not for the sake of ethics but exclusively for political expediency and self-aggrandizement.

@Jack79

Thank for the bot reference, though, unless I have a microchip implanted in my brain, wait, I do! Sarcasm administered in equal proportion to amount receieved…00110011001110011011000110010101

@Crusader wow, you speak the binary language of moisture vaporators.

@Jack79 like South Park’s Family Guy manatee writers and their pool of balls?

“Liberal”
“Democratic”
“Nazi”
“Will Smith”
“GOP”
“WMD”
“Penis”

(notices Crusader edging towards the last ball)

“We become just by performing just actions, temperate by performing temperate actions, brave by performing brave actions.” —Aristotle

Also, @Crusader, i’m trying to figure out how someone who claims to be Christian is so guided by Aristotle, when the Bible says not to burden oneself down with “the philosophies and empty reasonings of man”, because they are “foolishness in the eyes of God”.

Or do you ignore/not read that part of the Bible?

@eponymoushipster

Don’t forget ‘expediency’

@Ivan “war on terror” and “right on our side”. oh, and for a fun “twist” – include scripture on battle plans. i guess they forgot to read the part about “turning the other cheek” and “swords into plow shears”.

@Blondesjon,

Yes, nice quote, just, temperate, brave..

A friend is like two bodies sharing one soul.-Aristotle

@eponymoushipster,

What I do know is that Paul likened the ‘Unknown God’ of the Greeks to Jesus. This was instrumental in conversion efforts. I happen to recognize many parallels in Aristotlean thinking and the Bible, New Testement particularly. Jesus said, ‘I am in this world, but not of it.’ And, give to Caesar that which is Caesars and to God that which is to God,” It was/is not Entirely spiritual, in fact, Paul said, “We are first of the flesh, then then spirit.”

In fact, I was reasoning this threads post to determine how such unabashedly liberal individuals who pride themselves on secular logic could refute claims of Aristotle, and yes, @Ivan why else but for political expediency?

For myself, I find it an interesting exercize in intellectualism, and ‘the philosophies and empty reasonings of man’ because the are ‘foolish in the eyes of God,’ also incorporates Practical Wisdom. Such as that in a binary political nation like USA opposites are needed to arrive at a moderate postion, moderate financial, social conservative without the violent allowances to those not ‘in the group.’

Yes, and neo-con Christianity, and the social conservative, fiscal Moderate form I ascribe to are very different.

Unfortunately for the world, not all are Christians, and the Bible does Make allowances to protect yourself from those why would kill you. To be scorned and spitefully used is a daily occurance for Christians in liberal America, however, remember America is a Republic, not a Theocracy.

Though Christ Did make allowances for self-protection and crusader-like efforts against Aggressors,

“Up to this point you have not needed to bring money or food it was provided for you, now, carry a bag of coin, and three swords between you,” Addressing the disciples just before the crucification.

@Crusader…“The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.” —Jesus Christ

‘And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.’

‘To what then shall I liken the men of this generation, and what are they like? They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, saying: ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we mourned and you did not weep.’ ‘For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a Demon.’ ‘The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!‘But wisdom is justified by all her children.’

Wisdom was a Greek God. God gave the wisdom to the Greeks, for Jesus to incorporate, in such a measure as to reflect perfect blessing and perfect wisdom. The fleshly wisdom of man is the watery milk that has prepared us for the hearty spiritual Meat of the Gospel

@Crusader no, he likened it to God, not Jesus.

And, as regards to “giving Caeser’s things to Caeser”, that is, in fact, a Christian thing to do. God allows the “superior authorities” to exist (Rm 13:1), and thusly, submitting to their authority, when it does not go against what God’s Laws say, is showing submission to God.

Early Christianity rejected a mixing of their worship with idolatry and worship of pagan gods. To think or suggest otherwise is repugnant and, like all your other arguments, shows that you are not really a Christian.

“I heard Satan say, “Jesus is playing you for a sucker”—Pat Robertson

@eponymoushipster
Yes, Caesar to Caesar… is Christian, when not contradicting.., my point exactly, thank you.

Early Christians did reject idolatry, My reference to Wisdom as a Greek god, was that the personification of this disposition was incorporated as the same essence, in terms of application, Wisdom was very very articulated, but not As a person, or separate entity, but embodying that positive and well defined characteristics of the being. Thus, Not polytheism. An Idea, and Ideal, a definition, a guiding priniciple, Not a separate God. Thus my position remains consistant with the early teachings. Though I do appreciate the opportunity you provide to clarify.

I’m sorry. I fed some of his latest gibberish into Google Translator and it died.

To go back to the original question:

Aristotle is right. Democracy listens to the opinion of a million fools, rather than the select few that know what they’re talking about. The vote of someone who cares nothing about politics counts the same as that of a political analyst. And that of someone who is stupid, the same as someone who is intelligent. This is an intrinsic problem of democracy, and it should therefore be solved in two ways: one is to only allow those who are smart enough to vote, the other to count votes depending on their weight, just like shareholders in a company.

But here we have the eternal problem, noted as early as Aristotle’s own time, and not solved since. Who decides who is eligible to vote? Ok, we’ve agreed that some people are smarter (or more interested) than others, but who are these people? Who can tell us? Traditionally we’ve solved the problem by allowing all free men over the age of 25 to vote, as long as both parents were Athenians (5th c BC). Then we allowed non-Athenians, if they were permanent residents, and eventually anyone over the age of 18. In the 20th c some countries even allowed women to vote, a preposterous thought for the democracies of the past 25 centuries. Perhaps one day children will also be allowed to vote. Or tourists that happen to be in a country at the time (you can do that in the elections for the EU parliament, as long as you’re eligible in your own country).

So the problem has been moved from “who should vote” to “who decides who should vote”. And has not been solved since.

@Crusader With your deep-seated hatred of affirmative action, it must really eat you up to read about how God was always taking the side of those minority Israelites when they came into Canaan. They should have had to compete on their own merits against the Canaanites, right? But no, God was always stepping in and giving these immigrants an unfair advantage. That whole David and Goliath episode? Blatant discrimination. Why shouldn’t Goliath, clearly the more qualified warrior, have been allowed to kick David’s little shepherd tushy in a fair fight? The whole Old Testament seems to be a record of BIG government giving an unfair advantage to a specific minority.

And what’s with this?: “Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien” The farmer worked hard to grow those grapes; why should the government make him leave them for indigents and aliens to just come in and pick up?

And then there’s this: “If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you.” Damned liberals!

And it doesn’t end with the OT. The New Testament God seems to favor indigents.“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” “Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?... And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field…will He not much more clothe you?” Sounds like God’s quite the enabler.

“God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.”

So next time you feel all pissed off about how the all those “despised” homosexuals and minorities have gotten an unfair boost from the authorities, you’ll know who to blame.

@Harp: and don’t forget: “What you do to the least of them, you do to Me.”

just noticed Harp has 11111 lurve. Cool :) do I get a prize for spotting it?

“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” – Jesus
————————————-
I do feel for the poor oppressed Anglo-Saxon protestant male, looks at how may times one of them has been President. It’s just terrible to see such injustice, we should really give them more opportunity to succeed.

Harp’s lurve score is so cool that i don’t want to give him any right now.

@Harp,

Deep-seated Hatred for affirmative action? Your words, not mine. Also, David was the more Righteous, And qualified, as his skills and guile were superior to the muscle of Goliath, who was foolish for presenting himself as a target-Pride killed Goliath not discrimination. Also, the minority groups are often under more pressure, ‘I will sharpen you on the whetstome of adversity,’ ‘that which does not destroy you must certainly make you stronger.’ As opposed to expectant and avaricious, such as the ‘royal’ and ‘entitlement’ groups are and have been throughout history.

God did not give Entitlements, everthing was to be Earned, ‘by the sweat of ones brow,’ The examples you give of charity are relevant, from the Wealthy to the poor, not form one ethnic group to another simply because one ethnic group happened to be larger at a given time. those who are righteous, and work hard, but Entitlements for one group a the expense of another simply for the sake of wealth/opportunity redistribution and/or political expediency is neither Biblical Or Constitutional.
Just because one is a minority does not Gaurentee favoratism, in your convoluted world, a world based on self-serving personal aggrandizement, you would blatantly blaspheme and encourage others to do do in your own lifestyle. Personal accountability is why the Israelites were favored then, and Personal Accountability is why God favors people now.

America is Not a Theocracy-though you would define it in your own selective way, it is a Constitutional Republic. Your Hate and Political expediency have made you froth at the mouth with self-righteousness, while engaging in and promoting the same behavior that God Destroyed Entire civilizations-Soddam and Gommarah for example. Just because one is a minority does not mean they are the Chosen. Plenty of minorities Annihilated for their transgresssions. So the next time you decide to promote such self-serving hypocritical behavior to have political expediency and a better income for yourself and your hypocrite friends, remember, God does not Forget. Also, Jesus forgives for genuine repentence, God is much less forgiving.

And ‘better to have never heard the Gospel, then to have heard it and perverted it for personal gain.’

You cannot have it both ways, as a social liberal their are Far too many contradictions in terms of Gods plan. However, as a social compassionate conservative and fiscal moderate, you have arrived at the closest proximity to God’s plan as possible on Earth, however, neither you nor the neo-con centrists hypocrites want this-you will not relinquish your unGodly, and unConstitutional entitlements, and the neo cons will not relinquish their unGodly profits and unConstitutional fleecing of the public treasury to be deposited in private offshore accounts, (liberal businesses/individual do this too..)

‘One cannot serve two masters, for they will Hate one and Love the other, or Love one and dispise the other…’

American government is Not Christian or Constitutional. Any who assert this are expounding lies, to themselves, and the collective.

The left takes Only the Christian charitable principles, and None of the requirements of lifestyle for the blessings of God and justification of faith, relying upon the greed, fear, and lack of information Christians have about their own faith and concern, (legitimate,) of being marginalized, (socially and economically,) should they assert their belief. Homosexuals assert, and they are rewarded socially, and economically, this is called a Double Standard and Flagrant Discrimination.

Conservatives employ many social conservative principles, yet do not go far enough, (in my opinion,) to curtail to rampant and irresponsible application of the 1st amendment to lie, cheat, and steal, and promote Hate, Fear, racism, and mysogyny-many conservative subsidiaries profit from such media. All Demon-crats profit from such, and make allowances for such, lowering the standards to such a level as to be no more than viscious animals entirely sense and self-driven. Without true social conservative, fiscally moderate Christians/Catholics everything breaks down, both parties know this and give lip service to finding common ground, but no actual concerted efforts. It is only a matter of time now, Pandora’s box is open. Only those of righteous honesty, accountability, and charity, (compassionate social conservative and fiscally moderate,) will be favored by God now, Not the hypocrite governments of Man.

only a Sith deals in absolutes.

search your feelings crusader…you know this to be true.

@eponymoushipster
Yes, I agree that Free Will is the one Absolute that should not be compromised. This is a New Testament notion. Yet whom God favors is predicated upon the acceptance of the all the teachings of his Only Son, (and those principles of the Old Testament that were not replaced by the new,) this is clear.

I agree that God’s favor is dependent upon following His commands. But, based on what you say in these pedantic comments of yours, I doubt that you and your actions find His favor.

For example, you said Jesus was God. Now he’s God’s Son. Which is it? Or are you not sure?

@eponymoushipster

Yes, God’s favor is dependent upon following his commands, I agree with this, also. However, in terms of ‘pedantic’ that is a subjective characterization which you are entitled to, which I do no agree with. You have not provide any specific reasons of How my assertions are pedantic, for example.

Also, you are entitled, again to accuse me of being in disfavor with God due to my being ‘me’ and my ‘actions’, though, again, this is a subjective characterization, one that, honestly I wrestle with, but I continue to tey and be the best and most accountable, honest, and charitable individual I can each and every day to Earn His favor, His will be done, Amen.

Yes, Jesus is the Son of God And Man. Of this I am Absolutely Certain. A necessary condition to be divine, yet mortal, have incredible power for creation Or destruction, and make the conscieous decision, (free will exercized,) to employ such power for Good.

Then why did you call him “God” earlier?

also: conscious and exercise.

I hope they fix Google Translator for Crusaderese soon.

@cwilbur i hope they build a spell-checker into Windows 3.1.1 for his sake.

@eponymoushipster, @cwilbur,

Thank you for your continued scrutinization of my grammar and spelling, as well as your input.

I called Christ God because he is, the Son of God, And te Son of Man, your question is answered.

Anyone else care to comment on the thread topic?

@Crusader
_“Deep-seated Hatred for affirmative action? Your words, not mine.” _ It’s an observation, not a quote. Pretty much every thread you’re involved in features some rant about how liberals are conspiring with gays and minorities to give them unfair power over white males. Can you really not see the hatred there? You need to be more honest with yourself.

“David was the more Righteous, And qualified, as his skills and guile were superior to the muscle of Goliath” Doesn’t sound to me like David was getting by on “skill and guile”: “This day the LORD will hand you over to me, and I’ll strike you down and cut off your head. Today I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel. All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the LORD saves; for the battle is the LORD’s, and he will give all of you into our hands.”

“that which does not destroy you must certainly make you stronger” That’s not God, that’s Nietzsche. I don’t think you want to go quoting him; he also said “God is dead”.

“God did not give Entitlements, everthing was to be Earned, ‘by the sweat of ones brow’” The message I get from pretty much everywhere I look in the Bible is that where there’s need, God will provide. Nowhere do I see “you’re on your own, Pal. Sink or swim”. For someone who trusts in God, you spend an awful lot of energy worrying about what other people are getting and whether they deserve it. If God’s blessings are doled out according to how he judges fit, then who are you to cry foul?

“Homosexuals assert, and they are rewarded socially, and economically, this is called a Double Standard and Flagrant Discrimination.” Where can you point to a single instance of how one is rewarded for being homosexual?

Being your father’s son doesn’t make you your father at the same time, save for that you live in West Virginia.

If you can’t take the scrutiny, perhaps it’s best you go login to the forums on Kirk Cameron’s website and discuss what your next step for world domination is, Pinky.

@Harp,
You said,“Pretty much every thread you’re involved in features somerat about how liberals are conspiring with gays and minorities t give them unfair (and undeserved) power, (money,and opportunity,) over (straight,) white males, (and white conservative females.)” Parenthethis added for clarification. You define my exposition of Truth as ‘deep-seated hatred, and expect me to wilt like the proverbial flower in the swealtering heat of the noonday sun? Your Sun is an Illusion, the Son I believe gives me strength, as does my continuous, unmitgated search for the Truth. Beginning with my contributing to the Democrat Campaign in 2004, to recognizing the inherent selfishness, agenda-driven, glassy-eyed hypnotized expressions in the core of the ‘party’ and the avaricious, self-aggrandizing, self-promoting nature of the majority of the coordinators. (Republicans share this, but ta much lesser extend, and their coordinators are Not paid, unlike Demon-crat campaign coordinators.)Also, statistics in this circumstance are very illuminating, 90% of blacks, 80% of Hispanics, and ?% of gays, (speculate 99%) voted, continue to support Demon-crats.

Though Republics are often evil and hypocrites, too, they are the lesser of the two evils, for now, because the at least make an attempt, often, to embrace God’s/Jesus principles, and are more accountable in general, honest, and charitable-in general, but not always. ‘To those whom much has been given, much will be expected, those who sin against the greater light will receive the greater condemnation’ Republican hypocrites loss face, authority, and wealth, Demon-crat are, by definition, not capable of hypocrisy, unless they attempt a coup and embrace social conservativism in any way, then, they, too, are crucified-all for the sake of money, power, and attractive companions…The world be darned…You libs Are certainly the Majority, with you neo-con allies, don’t deceive yourself, or others,though you will certainly continue to do so to maintain power, money, etc..you will Never deceive me.

In terms of conspiracy? It is levied not necessarily against wealthy whites, (though, when inquired, Obama agreed children of ‘color’ from wealthy families should receive affirmative action advantages also, another struggling yet capable and law abiding lower-class white mans/womans dream killed..’) because the 5% of whites have off-shore accounts and wealth from generations. It is the other 95% of whites, whose families ‘lived simply to simply live’ I am referring to, especially the social conservative 50% or so who would compromise personal unGodly wealth distribution and legitimization of racist legislation and normalization and adoration of any lifestyle Not social conservative Christian regardless, all for the sake of political expediency, personal gain, etc.. (Judas received 10 pieces of silver, too…) Yes, Harp, Am Honest with myself, painfully so, I Do practice what I preach, not for personal gain, but for the benefit of All humanity.

Your refutation of my claim regarding David and Goliath was partially accurate, you quoted me in full anyway. I prefaced the statement with ‘David was the more Righteous.’ The skill and guile of David, (chosen by the Lord, and prepared accordingly before hand with skill and guile,) coupled with the pride of the Philistines, Goliath in particular, resulted in Davids victory, I stand by this. ‘Pride goeth before the fall.’

The Isralites were blessed, but Not before Many trials. Slavery among the Egyptians, nearly perpetual war afterwards with Canaanites and Philistines,internal dissent/civil war, (Absolam Davids son, attempting to slay his father..) now Persians and Arabs, not to mention half of thei number slain in one massive stroke by a wrathful God who observed them manufacturing and idolizing the Golden Calf, After the Exodus, and the Commandments given by Moses, (the 2nd set, the first could not be comprehended,to advanced,) and many miracles, Half their number swallowed by the Earth, for siding with the idolators. Though their are Many stiff-necked, hard-hearted, and gain-saying Jewish practitioners of Judaism, and it, like every other faith on the Earth is based on ‘Created, not creator’ worship, and/or race/ancestor worship was allowed to prosper and preferred Only after Major trials first and because of the imminent coming of the Messiah Immanuel.

The Semites are monotheistic, yes, but neither Islam, nor Judaism acknowledges Jesus as the Son of God, but only as a Man, (Judaism,) and a minor prophet, (Islam,) though Judaism incorporated some of Jesus teachings in their Torah, such that eventually, women were not executed for alleged affairs, and children not murdered for disobedience. Islam accepts Jesus in name only for the most part, politically expedient to do so, but an acknowledgement is Something. God favors those who acknowledge the Son of Man as also the Son of God, and embrace the fullness of the scriptures.

Yes, your quotation of God’s intervention is appropriate, yet know this blessing and favoratism was given in the context from my previous paragraph.

John 16:33, James 1:2,4, Galatians 6:9 and many others, are paraphrasing the ‘What does not destroy you makes you stronger,’ many other such examples in allegory.

Regarding entitlements, you say, ‘where there is need, God will provide,’ liberals-and neo cons Replace/eliminate God, or perhaps God used them to soften the hearts of angry far-right parishoners deceived into believing in an Angry, vengeful New Testament God by deceitful hypocrite liberal and neo-con ‘Christians that were not Christians’ when the reality is they were convinced to act in accordance with the interest of Man and money and power-for their economic ‘masters’. That said, liberal agenda Now, is Not (nor then,) Christian in its whole being, just selectively applied verses for political expediency.

The needs were supplied first to those who were given the Promise in general terms, (seeds of Abraham,) then, more specifically to those of the seed who embraced monotheism, and, eventually, compassionate social conservativistic monothiesm with an acceptance of Christ as the Son of God and the Son of Man and the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is One-all derived from Jehovah, the Son provided access to Abrahams legacy to All mankind, and the Spirit is the Truth discerner, the application of Gods grace, now empowered by God and conducted with mercy and compassion through Jesus Christ. The Spirit of the Law And the Letter of the Law, we have More Free will through such Love, abuse of this gift can and will have far more reprocussions eventually for all of us than the Old Testement could even have conceived, not just for tribe, or region as before, but for the Entire World.

quantity != quality.

@eponymoushipster
Any Donkey,(ass) can kick down a home,
It requires a human carpenter of no small skill, time nd patience to build one…

that in apropo to nothing that’s been said. FAIL.

Republicans are no more likely than Democrats to actually embrace and live by Christian principles; they are simply far more likely to yammer about them at length.

@Crusader

But it doesn’t take any skill to just throw a bunch of sticks and bricks randomly in a pile and call it a home.

@eponymoushipster, @cwilber, @Ivan,

Ah, the nihilist, the opportunist, and the athiest,
any of you actually work with your hands on a daily basis in such a way that your body is sore each day, (and not just becuase you type in an awkwark position,) how about volunteering for mentally challenged or homeless? Any donations of money/time to charity? Comforting of the aged? Teaching of the youth? What have you done to contribute directly to the lives of your community, not just self-serving abstraction and cynicism.

@cwilber, Action for those who do not have the capacity to reciprocate financially/socially is what socal conservatives often do, most of which Are Republicans. They help across the spectrum. No one looking over your shoulder at the voting booth…Demon-crats are Always interested in Quid-Po-Quo, thats why most Demon-crats are Attourneys. (though many good lawyers of conscience exist, just not far-left attourneys.)

@epony,
Obviously you definition of apropo and fail and mine vary considerably, again, you do not provided specification, just a vague ad hominem.

@Ivan,

Home, by my definition, is ‘of solid foundation, not built on sand, and sturdy, able to withstand the tempests of providence,” My post before the last elucidates in a carfully considered, structured way, like a well-constructed, comfortable, and safe home. Readers, notice the lack of specific comments or rebuttal, just unsupported personal attacks, this is very similar to the American ‘education’ system, no independent thinking or true dialectic, just blithe criticism without support-designed to intimidate, not elucidate-same tactics as Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Hirohito, Stalin, and Rossevelt..It does not require any skill to randomly throw words together for the sake of distraction or absurdity, either. Also to Readers, please read my previous post, and decide for yourselves.

@Crusader ah, the twit.

yes, in fact, i do all those things. the difference between you and me is that i don’t have to wank myself off in a public form about doing those things. “Do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing”. Or is that another scripture you didn’t read/chose to ignore? If you think participating to this site during free time is a waste, then perhaps you need to close down your account and go to better environs. I strongly suggest it, in fact.

Learn to write and read English well. Learn to speak in complete sentences, and use proper punctuation. Learn to not be an up-your-own-ass, condescending prat.

that is all.

@Crusader: So all the crony capitalism that the Bush adminstration engaged in—that’s not action for those who do not have the capacity to reciprocate, is it? It’s also pretty solidly based in quid pro quo. So are they not social conservatives? Or are they just very bad ones?

And you claim social conservatives help across the spectrum. Obviously, this is why they support faith-based initiatives, so that someone else has the responsibility of driving off the people they don’t really want to help. Because, really, if you set it up so that only Christian groups can get the funding and so none of your assistance goes to gay people, well, that’s just God’s will.

I think you have a pretty little fantasy about what social conservatives do—it’s really not very well matched with what they actually do.

Further, there’s no real place in an intelligent discussion for little jabs like “Demon-crats.” There are many things that make it much more entertaining and rewarding to mock you than engage with you—like your incoherence, your odd sense of relevance, your curious relationship with standard grammar, and your idiosyncratic spelling spelling—without you adding intentional and gratuitous nastiness to the mix.

@eponymoushipster
Thank you for you response. Know this, the nature of all demon-crats is to have appreciation fro Everything they do, And take credit for what social conservatives do also, while accepting No responsibility for Anything, sure some social conservative are such hypocrites, but nearly All demon-crats are such, do not flatter yourself. Also, I referred to you only as the ‘nihilist’. In terms of reading and ignoring, I take the totality of the scripture for various language interpretations, thank you, not your dissection piecemeal applications for political expediency, and, as you are a self-described non-beleiver, you have not the Holy Spirit to differentiate the Book anyway. I suggest you find another environ if my presence hear forces you to confront unpleasant truths, such that concealing yourself in the darkness of sarcasm, cynicism, deceptions, half-truths, and outright hypocristy do not deflect the light of truth.

@cwilber,
Define ‘crony capitalism’. As an operational definition, the resources are directed to producers, not race of sexual orientation affiliation, thus, not racist/heterophobic, and not unConstitutional. Were all Americans in general, accountable, honest, and charitable, and not simply parasites on the the kindness and/or fear of good folk, a financial moderate position would be more feasable, though you and yours do not want this, you would not be ‘special’ then. Also, you and yours are so terrified of the truth you president wants to refer to tradition social conservative speech as Hate, and duely prosecutable-Facism/Communism, your liberal homosexual hegemony of Demon-crats, this at the heels of the reinstitution of the so called (un)fairness doctrine undermining the tine fraction of social conservative media to a he said-she said fiasco.

Yes, faith-based initiates involve All faiths, not just social conservative Christian. You and yours have government entitlements and subsidies and quotas and want to eliminate both this, the Only protection of government against the onslaught of you and yours, (though lib churches can benefit, too, and do, however they are but artificial fronts for political self-aggrandizing, homosexual and any group affiliated with demon-crat unGodly benefits- promoting.

But you and yours dedicate yourself to yourself and your own pleasure, true sacrifice and fellowship without personal gain is an Entirely alien concept. All the violence, deception, pornographic, sexual degeneracy advocacy/encouragement/reward, doubled-standards, subsidies, entitlements, media, education indocrination/social exclusivity, and None the accountablity, honesty, or Charity.

Revolution now!

@eponymoushipster

I see you have detected a disturbance in your web of deceit…and Einspringen into action…

@Crusader get this straight, jackass – i never said i was a non-believer. Get that through in your thick skull. now.

if you think you have a “message” you want to convey, why don’t you learn to use proper grammar and logical thought rather than employ the linguistic skils of a 4th grader.

typing 4 pages of dribble does not prove anything, nor does it make you “righteous”.

@eponymoushipster
Your continuous positions supporting and encouraging every form of anti-Christian values speaks for itself on your non-belief. You are a Persecutor of the church, moreover, and everything it stands for. I am comfortable with who I am, and occassionally am blessed, though I never expect it. In terms of righteousness, actions do speak louder than words, surely, yet words and integrity have value, more so to those who share the value, certainly, as you do not share my values, obviously, and thus do not value my words, and I do not share your values, and I do not value your words much, but I do value You, as a human being.

Really – give me an example of anti-Christian values?

And what church are you saying a persecute? The church that disrespects Jesus and his teachings, involving itself in wars, killing and political movements? that church? because that church isn’t the true church, and you aren’t a true Christian. sorry to break your bleeding heart.

@eponymoushipster
If this is what you believe what alternative would you propose? Have you any alternatives? Or simply more accusations?Libs are great at casting stones in a glass house but not so effective at building them..Remember, too, that Jesus did Not dismiss all the laws of the old Testement,and their is something called the epistles, proverbs, and psalms to consider-again, the Entire text. Christianity is not Jesus-anity.

Also, the Church is Perfect, but man is not. Following an example of a Perfect Being among other beleivers is very difficult, among hypocrites and (aggressive,)opposition it is nearly impossible. And yes, there Are examples given by Jesus to protect believers from those who would destroy them from within and without-unfortunately leading to wars occassionally, and co-opted by political movements that may have a negligable application of Christian principles.
‘Neither blasphemerers, lier, fornicators, sodomizers, or thieves shall enter my fathers kingdom…” Jesus…

Socially conservative Christians follow Rules, (Christ-suggested,)some more than others, This is what defines them from liberals, liberals opportunistically create or destroy laws as it is politically expedient to do so.

@Crusader who said i’m a Liberal? you make a lot of assumptions, champ. I’d recommend against that.

You keep referring to one or another political party as being the side Jesus or God is on. Yet it says that God is not partial, and Jesus perfectly imitates His Father. So if they’re not partial, how can they, or by extension – their followers, associate themselves with any political party or government? That would be hypocritical, and shows that the person doing that is not following Christ’s example.

You claim that one group follows some rules more than others. But, again, that’s not what the Bible teaches. There’s no sin scale, where some rate higher than others. Sin is sin, and wrong is wrong.

As long as you continue to associate yourself with a political party or movement, you’ll be a hypocrite and a liar, and you’ll only show yourself as being a false Christian who obviously isn’t very familiar with your Bible, if you even own one. obviously, you just spout whatever tripe they shove in your head and feel that you’re a “good Christian”. you’ve got a long way to go, sonny jim. a long way.

i mean, i can understand with your language and grammar problems, how it might be hard to read a Bible, but they make a translation for small children; i suggest you start there and work your way up. It’s a good place, though, since I know quite a number of 9yr olds who know more about the Bible than you do.

@Crusader Here’s something I’ve been trying to understand about you for weeks now, so let me just ask directly. Where did this impression of yours that Democrats/liberals are out there trying to give the advantage to gays and minorities come from? You’ve made this assertion so regularly and so confidently, that you must think you see it happening all around.

But since you seem to want people to be concerned about this, I think it only fair that you show us some hard evidence of where and how this is happening. Suppose I were a black gay woman. Point out the ways the Democrats/liberals plan to get me ahead of you because of any one of those three things. If this is as big a problem as you claim, then you should have no problem showing me how this is happening instead of just claiming that it is.

Just the facts, please; easy on the rhetoric.

@Crusader is this you?

@eponymoushipster; You can define me or or yourself as anything you like, me in any terms that is convenient? That kind of double standard Is Hypocrisy, liberal hypocrisy, Champ.

“God is not a repecter of persons,” is the bible quote. God Is partial to those who obey His laws, as is evidenced again, and again in the Bible. Remember Israel?

Yes, their Is a Sin Scale, beginning with ‘blaphemers against the Holy Spirit, (unforgivable, the only one) murderers, fornicators…Jesus elucidated them in this order for a Reason.

And, FYI I am an Independent, given a choice for a Christian Party of social conservative/financially moderate principles I would readily advocate, I have advocated/campaigned for Both parties on different occassions, this makes me Objective.

Save your ridiculous personal attacks for someone who cares.

@Harp
Black women earn more, on average, than white women now. Most of the media revolves around minority music/lifestyle and persecution of whites for the sake of ‘historical’ abuses, (perpetrated and encourged by 1% elite, who now profit from the new perceptions,) A homosexual, a black, a hispanic, and jewish, (all non-white non-homosexual non-male) benifit from the ACLU. NAACP for colored skins, (how colored is yet to be defined…) Affirmative action for all but straight white men. School, government contracts, housing allowances, and employment quotas for all but straight white men. Resolution for unlawful termination for all but straight white men.

Advocacy,subsidy, and opportunity and social acceptance, by default, for all but straight white men. Consequently, most straight white men will behave liberally and deny Christian values to ‘just get along.’

Regardless of the contributions to society in the form of thrift, law-abiding, kindness, and raising of same values in children, Perception is negative to them, thus the ‘white flight,’ A Real Phenomena, not just some theory.

America promotes legislated opportunity preferences, racism, hate, and double-standards, all at the expense of straight white men—particularly social conservatives—(and the women that support.married to them, for their white children will be predjudiced from day 1.)

This is selective socialism and discrimination at its zenith, 42 years and counting…

@Crusader you are so far off, you don’t even realize it.

Supporting any political movement is unchristian. Doing 50% for one and 50% for another isn’t balancing out; it’s simply more hypocritical. You’re fake piety is such a joke i feel sorry for you. And, while you claim objectiveness, having “worked” with “both” ineffective political groups, you still find fault with liberals and democrats. Wouldn’t that mean that you, too, are a “demon-crat”?

and using the term “colored skins” is so freaking inappropriate it’s just sad. you have such a chip on your shoulder, you really need to do some soul searching and find out why.

and, i’d suggest, actually read your Bible. not just glance at it from across the room while you’re reading Fox News and religious right/KKK propaganda.

@eponymoushipster

Your opinion are far off is not shared my me, or my advocates.
Not supporting any political movements, is called Rastafarianism. Would tht you could convince All social conservatives to sit quitely back while their land is converted into Soddam and Gommorah…You would derive great pleasure in this would you not? Jesus allowed the disciples ‘three swords among you and a bad of coin’ for a Reason. To Defend the Faith. My willingness to integrate with both sides on separate occassion,is an expression of my search for the Truth, for its own sake, not for personal gain-‘Seek and ye shall find..’ Save you false compassion for someone who is affected by such petty tyranny. Yes, I find fault with Both parties, more so liberals, and,yes, I have been a (reluctant, with many reservation, and uniformed,)Demon-crat at one (short time, 3 months…)

Also the term ‘colored skins’ is in the National Association of Colored People’ Or People with skins dark enough for subsidies. I have no guilt, find another to employ your vile hate-inspiring craft toward.

And, I wanted any suggestion, I would ask, as soon as I am interested in an opinion/suggestion from the Prince of Lies, which is never. Jesus would say, ‘get thee behind me Satan!’ As he said to Peter at one point…

@Crusader no, not supporting any political movements is called Christianity.

I have no guilt, find another to employ your vile hate-inspiring craft toward.
^^^ this makes no sense. we speak english on fluther.

if you seek the “truth” among the political movements of other imperfect human beings, then you truly are lost, and a failure. Read your Bible

@eponymoushipster
No, not supporting and not allowing efforts to undermine the church and/or destroy the flock in addition to following Christian principles through faith to the best of owns ability is Christianity. Currently only Republicans even provide any lip service and a small measure of action to satisfy this, demon-crats are entirely opposed, thus worthy of opposition by Christians with their ‘three swords.’ Political, Military,(personal firearms in case the govenment is completely coopted by demoncrats, which it is nearly so now-and the demoncrats want those personal firearms confiscated too…) and Faith.

Imperfect human beings inspired by perfection through faith, and prophesy, read your bible I have, and do.
Am I debating with a Sat..ist?

@Crusader your church does a fine job of destroying itself. you’re so daft it’s funny.

<stops following>

@Crusader
“Black women earn more, on average, than white women now.” According to the 2005 Census, median income for white females was $26,636; for Black females it was $25,435

“Most of the media revolves around minority music/lifestyle…” Let’s just assume this is true; how does this give me, as a gay black female, an advantage over you?

”...and persecution of whites for the sake of ‘historical’ abuses, (perpetrated and encourged by 1% elite, who now profit from the new perceptions,)” Media revolves around this? I’m baffled as to why you seem to be so much more exposed to this “persecution” than I am. I’ve never felt in the least bit persecuted for these historical abuses; why you and not me?

“A homosexual, a black, a hispanic, and jewish, (all non-white non-homosexual non-male) benifit from the ACLU” ‘Nuf said

“Affirmative action for all but straight white men. School, government contracts, housing allowances, and employment quotas for all but straight white men.” I think you misunderstand how “affirmative action” works. Here, straight from the US Dept. of Labor, is all there is to affirmative action. It boils down to this: ”...these laws ban discrimination and require Federal contractors and subcontractors to take affirmative action to ensure that all individuals have an equal opportunity for employment, without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability or status as a Vietnam era or special disabled veteran.” Why don’t you read through this document and show me which parts exactly you have a problem with. I can’t find any evidence that being a minority will get me a housing allowance. It is now illegal for universities to use points or quotas for race in admissions decisions.

Here is California’s policy on unlawful termination, Show me how this gives minorities or gays an advantage over straight white males.

“Advocacy,subsidy, and opportunity and social acceptance, by default, for all but straight white men.” Advocacy, perhaps some. But “subsidy, and opportunity and social acceptance” over straight white males? Come on, show me, don’t just say it.

@eponymoushipster: We’re back to Crusader-logic! He’s Christian, and you think he’s a twit, so therefore you hate all Christians and persecute all Christians.

(Because I disagree with him, I am ipso facto not Christian, no matter what I say. I’m not sure why that doesn’t work in reverse, but I suspect it has something to do with logic being sinful, combined with the usual level of Crusader-incoherence.)

@Harp

Census driven statistics are very questionable, as liberals are imbedded throughout all reaches of government and, as such, as with ACORN, and will deliberately provide false information on salaries, demographics, ect…while accepting federal dollars as an alleged ‘non-partisan’ group. Your numbers are nearly equivilant-this was four years ago, time to stop the reverse racism it seems, yet the other races will always be encouraged to feel justified in positioning themselves as the expence of white social conservatives, too much pressure from around the world, not to mention politically expedient domestically to do so…

Advantage of the gay black female, lets see…ACLU, NAACP, advocacy means Opportunity in and of itself-corporations are fearful of bad publicity, individuals are fearful of not being PC, there are a host of organizations funded through tax dollars for gays, for blacks, and for females. This is self-evident.

Persecution? Yes, the indifference, and/of callous stares on the street, and the vitriol, recidivist history, and Hate from the (especially older white liberal women,) professors in tax-payer funder schools, the subtle and overt marginalization in such institutions for not being PC (in this case not even providing an alternative to liberal hate talking points and justification for continued deception and hate of virtually all white protestant male law makers/leaders then and now, while being indifferent or giving a free pass to everyone else…)
Also, only about 1% of whites had any actual means in the USA, all others were working all day long, virtual slaves themselves, to charaterize white protestants as a group as having some kind of priviledge, is absurd, nearly all worked hard and often, and were very law abiding in general, great producers for the oligarchs, and bankers, now, the same families who benefitted from white ethics and thrift turn on them like snakes while shopping at Macy’s. Hypocrites.

Yes, blacks, hispanics, homosexuals, and anyone of ‘color’ is afforded advocacy leading to advantages, and/or retainment of employment/opportunity. A staight white can and will be terminated for the slightest infraction, or none at all. All others can play the race trump card, employers, schools know this, it is easier to capitulate and avoid bad publicity, lies for such accusations are hard to disprove, and it is enough to accuse often. No accountability. No honesty.

The document for affim action is equivilant to quotas. It is proven that whites and white asians require much better resumes for the same govenmnet job/contract and higher test scores for access to the same universities. Again, you are mistaken about university admission. They are autonomous entities, and retain the right to employ illegal and immoral quotas to this day.

Seattle contructed a 100 million school for an all black neighborhood, the next week a shooting death occured…Full time armed security and metal detectors there..Most white schools even in relativedly poor areas..few problems..Take care of your own house first. All else is simply political experdience and deliberate disenfranchisement of a demographic popularized to be hated. (white social conservatives.)

Equal opportunity for equal ability, based on community involvement, and objective test scores-plenty of grade inflation occuring in the US for liberals…Punish those who would commit violence based on Hate. Do not reward the mediocre or the racist. Make provisions for responsible mothers, do not reward irresponsible breeders-for the sake of overwhelming the state with debt. “Breed, they have to feed you.” MLK. ACLU and the NAACP and other race based tax subsidized groups encourage division and racism. Accept it.

@Crusader
Liberals are fiddling with the census data? Then on what supposedly unbiased source are you basing your assertion that black women are out-earning white women? It seems like you are disturbed at the idea that black women could be getting close to wage parity with whites. I haven’t heard you express your concern about the fact that black men earn on average far less than white men (and why aren’t liberals fiddling with that data?) How would you feel if those numbers were reversed?

“there are a host of organizations funded through tax dollars for gays, for blacks, and for females. This is self-evident.” I’m no longer accepting “self-evident” as justification in this discussion. Back it up.

“Persecution? Yes, the indifference, and/of callous stares on the street, and the vitriol, recidivist history, and Hate from the (especially older white liberal women,) professors in tax-payer funder schools, the subtle and overt marginalization in such institutions for not being PC (in this case not even providing an alternative to liberal hate talking points and justification for continued deception and hate of virtually all white protestant male law makers/leaders then and now, while being indifferent or giving a free pass to everyone else…)” Those callous stares, you don’t think blacks and gays and Hispanics get them when they walk through white neighborhoods? Now, imagine what if the majority of employers out there were black, and you’re a white guy out looking for a job. You know you’re going to meet a few of those callous stares from prospective employers, right? Wouldn’t you want laws in place that make it illegal for your race to be held against you? So, show me exactly which parts of the affirmative action policy you would have a problem with.

I’m willing to admit that you would encounter a great deal of hostility in many universities, but it would have nothing to do with your being a straight white male and everything to do with your extreme and ill-informed world view, reliance on hearsay and assumptions, and rejection of actual data. In academia, it isn’t enough to just assert that things are this way or that way; you’re expected to back those assertions up.

Despite all of the supposed bias in college admissions, minorities still account for only 26% of the students in all US colleges and universities. That includes Asians, of course. This number hardly indicates a bias on the scale you’re suggesting.

“Accept it” I accept evidence, not assertions.

@Harp
The previous election highlighted the illegal actions of ACORN and any group that profits personally from legislation Will have individuals perform their bidding, it is human nature-and self promotion. I ma not disturbed, it is important to recognize that black/hispanic/asian businesses hire their Own Race, no provisions for whites to work with them…Yet we are Forced to employ them, this is discrimination, and, a double standard. Low interest loans, etc..for all other races, come on, do not be so willfully ignorant, are you behaving this way to convince me or others viewing this information?
Also, black men earning ‘far less’ is another misnomer. Perhaps if said black men were more concerned with employment than ‘bling’ then their would be more parity, as it is they project the fear that the establishment desires in any case.

ACLU NAACP, black liberation Front, Zionist extremist organizations, La Raza, the list continues for a long, long while, all racist, all racist, federally funded, and culturally ‘acceptable’ because they have a common enemy-white protestants, and social conservatives in general.

Those callous stares are Not reciprocated by white America to blacks/latinos nearly as much a black/latino America is responsible for such aggressiveness. 4 times more crimes of latinos to whites than the reverse, 8 times more crimes of black to whites than the reverse. Plenty of evidence in every streetcorner of most major cities and the ‘barrios’ and ‘ghettos’ where they prey on eachother. Crime statistics Are legitimate evidence. And, in terms of quota systems, that is my issue, plenty of opportunties for the qualified, the self-perpetuating unconstitutional system of institutionalized racism as evidenced in affirmative action is divisive as well. Continued competancy should be the criterion for employment. Laws such as these encourage white men to be More racist in general, or reduced producers, as they are paranoid as busniess owners of ‘ulterior motives’ of blacks/mexicans/and ony of darker skin as well as homosexuals, because the job may just be a front to sue for no good reason, or behave in such a way as they Know is uncomfortable to those around them to Encourage a reaction-and sue, it all about the money, but you know that already…Granted there have been many injustices in the past, but they are Rectified as much as Justice permits, the current scenario is simply a power grab.But ennui is the objective, yes? The ‘Exclusive’ so called ‘minority’ have all the social and government support, and, while the lies and deception continue, Christianity is destroyed, and/or mutilated into a world view supported the establishment.

If such groups were employed action Christian principles, like thrift, honesty, accountability, and charity, perhaps they would not be so prone to irresponsible lives and crime, and need elite lib hypocrites to continue to justify and subsidize such behavior at the expense of the proven producers and law abiding citizens. And your assumption of white racism is Far less frequent than you want to believe, particularly white women and Christian white men are Very generous and kind, so much so that many have lost thier income to illegals…But the black women and mexican women Most Often do Not want to work around other races Unless they can have More Money from the government to do so. So their exclusivity and racism is Rewarded, and the kindness and Christian charity is Penalized, I am not a fool, and have plenty of experience and personal anecdotes to support this. Though Mexicans are generally thrifty, and at least incorporate some Christian principles in general, and a few blacks also but whites are Far more willing to integrate, and charitable-even when they are fewer resources.

And college admissions? Yes, 67% of graduates are women now, 50% of those women are white, and that leaves 33% for men. about half of that number are white-representing a population distribution equivilant to current demographics. So 16% of all college graduates are white men. Of that number 1/3 of the white men are self-described social conservatives, (Catholic or Protestant,) so, again, 5% of all college graduates for the last 10–15 years are social conservative white Christians/Catholics. Who is the Real Minority?

Evidence and assertions are Both valid, Testimonials are employed in courts of law and churches Every Day. I do not accept your terms.

@Crusader – so no facts, no articles, no references? You can’t just make up numbers and provide false correlations like assuming that since 50 percent of graduating women are white then it must be exactly the same for graduating men. Where did you get your numbers?

The more I read your posts, the more I wonder if you are a liberal, homosexual atheist who is just pretending to be something else in order to make religious conservatives look bad.

You really
should
examine the way
you present yourself
if you want
to be
taken
seriously
at all.

“it is important to recognize that black/hispanic/asian businesses hire their Own Race, no provisions for whites to work with them…Yet we are Forced to employ them, this is discrimination, and, a double standard.” Yeah, I’m sure the landscapers and Chinese takeout places and dry cleaners are turning away white applicants in droves. And “we” are not forced to hire “them”; we and everyone else, are forced not to discriminate on the basis of race. Period.

And let me just pause here to point out how very telling it is about the nature of your particular creed that you see humanity so neatly divided up into “we” and “them”. That, to me, is a sure sign that someone just doesn’t get it, spiritually speaking.

“ACLU NAACP, black liberation Front, Zionist extremist organizations, La Raza, the list continues for a long, long while, all racist, all racist, federally funded” Show me that these are federally funded, or stop saying it.

“Testimonials are employed in courts of law and churches Every Day.” Testimonials are not assertions. An assertion is simply saying that something is so, as you have been doing; testimonials are first person accounts of one’s own experiences, not opinions.

@Harp
Again, I am not compensated for research to the obvious. And your sweeping generalization of Chinese dry cleaners is as offensive as it is naive, plenty of other businesses owned by Chinese, and all others. And yes, quotas are alinve and well in government. And dismissal of any other than a straight white can have legal ramifications. If I received the current going rate for advocacy of any but a straight white, (around $50.00 US/hour after benefits,) perhaps I would consider continuing this fruitless dialogue, until then, enjoy your ‘special’ status.

Again, your libs Want ‘us’ and ‘them’ not I, it is profitable for you to do so. And for latinos and blacks to have larger families, and subsequently subsidized, at the expense of white families, that need to be smaller by necessity. Again, self-evident, birth rates and a vastly changing demographic can and do attest to this. And allow massive illegal immigration, and give them amnesty, that assures your ‘special’ status. Know that you and yours are in the Vast majority, lib and neo con alike, but I and those like me will Never allow you to feel like you are justified.

NAACP, ACLU, La Raza, BBLF, and ZEO,Yes, such organizations Are racist, (only benefitting a particular race, though ACLU incluides women and homosexuals-again, no advocacy for straight white men- surprise!) by Definition, You want me to demonstate federal funding? Why can you not take the leap and investigate yourself, again, I do not receive $50.00/hour of tax-payer money to support my position.

Ok, my assertions are Observations, my Observations are predicated from personal Testimonials. Again, semantics. If you do not like the terms of my discussion, why do you continue writing on this thread? I do not agree with your terms, nor you with mine, with that we can agree.

Anyone care to comment on the thread topic?

Again, if you all want to compensate me $50.00/hour I can supply you with all the time and statistics you desire, just as lib groups have the tax money for the time and (modified) statistics. I would start with ACORN, interested how you All avoid the revealed core of your hypocrisy Every Time.

@Crusader: the payment for actually doing the research to back up your claims is that we take you seriously, instead of thinking you’re a wingnut whackjob. Is that worth $50/hour to you?

“your sweeping generalization of Chinese dry cleaners is as offensive as it is naive” I never said anything about Chinese dry cleaners. Look again. This is the kind of jumping to conclusions that characterizes much of your argument. As for sweeping generalizations, how about “if said black men were more concerned with employment than ‘bling’ then their would be more parity”? Or “the black women and mexican women Most Often do Not want to work around other races Unless they can have More Money from the government to do so”?

_“your libs Want ‘us’ and ‘them’ not I”. OK, I’m liberal. You’re welcome to look through anything I’ve ever posted in my year on Fluther and I guarantee you’ll find that I’ve never said a single negative thing about conservatives, Republicans, whites, straights, males, or Christians. Ever. (Nor have I ever sung the praises of gays, minorities, or Democrats, for that matter). People are just people to me. Yet in your 37 days here, you’ve done little more than inveigh against more groups than I can count. It seems that you’re world consists of conservative Christians, and then everyone else. I think the record’s pretty clear here.

“If you do not like the terms of my discussion, why do you continue writing on this thread?” For your sake, believe it or not.

@Harp,

‘Chinese landscapers and dry cleaners are turning white applicant away in droves.’ I did Look Again, and observed the same statement.

My statements are not generalized, One simply has to look around without scales on their eyes to observe this, and I have worked several times with such groups with bad results, Regardless of how completant or nice I am. Granted, I am male, white, straight, and Not Ugly or obese, or homosexual, consequently, I am a Threat. You would have them beleive in their hearts that they are deserving or whatever that aggressive and intimidating behavior, consistantly applied, can yield. O ye hypocrite. Yours is the bitter fruit. Yes, their are certainly exceptions, the recent election of 10% of blacks and 20% of hispanics for the Much more qualified Republican was evidence to this.

Also, though you have not intoned/initiated directly and Overt accusations, you do not have to. You merely wait for the conservative to address injustice, convolute it, respond to piecemeal accusations, (Such As ACORN-which you have Never responded to and most probably never will,) dismiss it altogether, and/or attack the user personally. And, yes your unwiullingness and outright denial of the Obvious, is an advocacy-a strong one-for libs, which, by definition, is discriminating against social conservatives in general, straight whites in particular.

My world consists of those who would work and provide based upon their individual efforts, not pointing accusatory fingers at all but themselves, having an untenable lifestyle/family and blaming resulting (inevitable, and encouraged,) elevated crime rates on the very individuals who would live responsibly and honestly. Your is the bitter fruit.

@Crusader
OK, let’s take a moment with this “dry cleaners” thing, because it so poignantly illustrates how you see what you expect to see.

Here’s exactly what I said: “Yeah, I’m sure the landscapers and Chinese takeout places and dry cleaners are turning away white applicants in droves.” remember what I told you about the advantages of copying and pasting to avoid errors?

You then blasted me for talking about “Chinese dry cleaners”. I said I never mentioned Chinese dry cleaners, and that you should look again. You go back and look a second time and what do you come up with? “Chinese landscapers and dry cleaners”.

The thing is, Crusader, this kind of carelessness in how you look at things comes from being so sure that you already know what’s there. If it were just a matter of occasionally getting text wrong, it wouldn’t be a big deal, but you’ve built your whole world view this way. Because you think you already know what liberals are like and what they want, I could type til my fingers fall off and all you would see is what you already think.

As soon as someone thinks they’ve got some group or some race all figured out, they stop seeing people in their infinite complexity. That single failure has been the cause of many of the world’s worst problems. Some liberals do this, and some conservatives do this. It’s equally damaging either way.

So because I’m a liberal, you’ve got me pegged as your enemy. But then I’m not alone, since the world outside of your little cluster of like-minded people is pretty much full of enemies, isn’t it? The fact is that I’m not your enemy. I just tell you things that you don’t want to hear and don’t let you get away with your unfounded assumptions. I can see how you might not like that, but sometimes that’s the biggest favor one person can do for another.

I don’t even mind when you call me a “hypocrite” and put “bitter fruit” on my menu and start sounding all “Old Testament” on me. I know people get angry when their way of seeing things gets challenged, so I’ll just attribute it to the fact that you’re working hard to maintain your world view and will snap at anyone who pokes at it too hard. It doesn’t make for a very persuasive debating style, though. Insults often mean the debater has run out of evidence or skill or both.

Without reading everything, maybe a democracy is the closest thing to socialism. It would allow indigents to have certain advantages, privileges and rights that they wouldn’t have otherwise….?