Why is being gay a sin?

Cause a book called the bible says so.

Oh for God’s sake

It isn’t.

Learned fear.

The Bible says that having sex with someone of the same gender is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. It’s in Lev. 18:22. It doesn’t say why it is an abomination, but it just is. A few verses later it says that wearing 2 different clothing fibers at the same time is an abomination. So all the gays and cotton/poly wearers will suffer together in Hell! It’s all a bunch of horse shit if you ask me.

Well, for Christians, it does say in the Bible that having gay sex is a sin and that those who do will not enter into the kingdom of heaven: those dirty malakos and arsenokoites. With “malakos” usually translated as “effeminate ones” or “soft ones” and “arsenokoites” translated as “homosexuals”. As if being “soft” is a reason to burn in hell!

But see, it isn’t enough for me to just read it and accept it. I always ask myself: why does the Bible say it’s a sin? Probably because the people who wrote the Bible were naturally wary of something that went against what they viewed as the natural order of things (reproduction between male and female creates child) so for some reason they decided that to go against that is “wrong” and shouldn’t be done by anyone.

I don’t think it is. People always say things happen for a reason .

Because the Bible thumping, holier than thou Jesus freaks say so.

My return question would be “What then is a sin, and why is sin bad?”.

Possibly God likes spying on people having sex and gets annoyed when it is just two guys – he likes checking the girls out. I can’t think of any other reason.

@Fresh You make my head not feel good

Ask God.

Cause for some reason a lot of people believe the silly things in a book that was written a long long time ago by many different people. There are many different books like this, the Bible, the Qur’an.

I choose to think for myself. Anyone with a rational logical mind understands that sin does not exist, thus there is no sin in being gay.

It is not a sin – it is simply the genetics an individual had when they were born.

It’s not a sin. I’ve laid out the argument several times here on Fluther; I recommend that you search for ‘gay marriage’ and read the long threads.

@cwilbur You can lay out as many arguments as you like, if a person believes in the Bible it is regarded as a sin. Thankfully not too many still believe in it.

Because that book I used as firewood said it was. Some bullshit moronic book that was.

It’s not.

Um, @DarkScribe, I do believe in the Bible, which is why the argument I laid out is relevant. You can twist the Bible and willfully misread several passages in order to find proof that being gay is a sin, but it’s not something the actual text supports.

With regards to the original question, let’s put it this way. This only works in person, generally with a male subject.

Male Christian: Homosexuality is a sin.

You: So you think two men should never engage in butt secks?

Male Christian: No, it is an abomination. It says so in the Bible; it is the word of God.

You: Whaddya think of lesbian porn?

Male Christian: ...

@cwilbur Misread? Willfully?

Tell me how you can avoid the very clear cut “Abomination” description?

The text not only supports it, it suggests that death should be the reward.

@cwilbur : I’m pretty sure it’s crystal clear; it’s just a matter of believing it or not.

I thought that ALL sins were supposed to be EQUAL in the eyes of the Lord. Right? So being slothful and a homosexual are supposed to be on equal footing, according to the Bible. I think that people should not cast stones…

My views are simple: what floats your boat, just don’t scare the horses. The text about loving one’s neighbour just about covers it.

There is also a difference between what the Old Testament says and what the New Testament says. The Old Testament God has a tendency to get really pissed off periodically and drown, burn or otherwise damn people. The New Testament God is an altogether different fellow, saying if you follow Jesus you are okay and you have a room in my mansion.

So is it a sin? Only if one of the people involved does not want to be.

@sydaustralia – And besides don’t you have a suspicion that much of the discourse on same-sex marriage and on homosexuality generally, is to distract attention from really nasty social problems, like child abuse, prostitution, drug abuse, etc. – all of which are symptoms of a deep malaise in many societies.

@DarkScribe and @ubersiren: the prohibtion in Leviticus is in the context of ritual purity laws for the ancient Israelites; the Gentiles were never bound by those laws in the first place. It is not a question of believing or not believing; it’s a question of actually reading for comprehension.

I’ve laid out this argument at least twice, and I’m not getting into it again. If you want to understand the arguments, and not just Christian-bash, use your search engine skills.

@cwilbur

Just curious then: What about St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians with the whole malakos/arsenokoites thing that talks about “effeminate” and “homosexuals” not entering the kingdom of heaven?

1Cor 6:9–11 NASB Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators (pornoi), nor idolaters, nor adulterers (moichoi), nor effeminate (malakoi), nor homosexuals (arsenokoitai), (10) nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. (11) Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

@Dansedescygnes: I addressed those, too in the prior threads—the translation of ‘arsenokoitai’ and ‘malakoi’ is not nearly as cut and dried as the English version suggests. Also, before you ask, I addressed the letter to the Romans in the prior threads.

I reiterate: I’ve laid out this argument at least twice, and I’m not getting it into again. Use your search engine skills.

@cwilbur

I’m not trying to argue, it’s just something I want to know more about.

Believe me, as a gay Christian, I don’t want it to be true.

because someone a long, long time ago really sucked at translating greek.
that’s why.

wow
my friend,
i was talking to the priest and he told me being gay is not the sin.
the sin is actually having sex with the same gender.

according to the bible pretty much everything is a sin. (eating shell fish, wearing cotton and linen, sex before marriage——we all know people are doing that gay or straight!)

but love isn’t a sin. so i guess two gay people can be in love they just cannot have sex.

i’d still rather be with someone i love and not have sex with them than get fucked (in marriage) by someone i dont love.

My personal opinion:

How many of you have lied?how many of you have coveted? How many of you have ever not loved a neighbor as much as yourself? The bible says: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 None of us are worthy to go to heaven. Even john the baptist was unworthy to untie Jesus’ sandal. If god didn’t love us we all would be on our way to Hell. But god loved us so much that He sent Jesus to suffer instead of us. So all of us, the liars the lusters the homosexuals can go to heaven. You may wonder why did God create homosexuals if homosexuality is a sin? He did it as a test 1 Corinthians 10:13 there hath no temptation taken you except what is common to man, but god is faithful who will not suffer you to be tempted above that he are able, but with the temptation also make a way to escape that you may be able to bear it.
just another test on the road to salvation! And remember: that if though shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that
God hath raise him from the dead, though shalt be saved Romans 10:9

Wow that was a lot, and very off topic just felt the need to give my take on some of the questions that have come up in this very interesting thread. And my iPod won’t let me check my work so I’m sorry if it’s incoherent.

@cwilbur the prohibtion in Leviticus is in the context of ritual purity laws for the ancient Israelites; the Gentiles were never bound by those laws in the first place. It is not a question of believing or not believing; it’s a question of actually reading for comprehension.

I’ve laid out this argument at least twice, and I’m not getting into it again. If you want to understand the arguments, and not just Christian-bash, use your search engine skills.

No, I’ll just use my intellect and Bible study experience to disagree with you.

This is quite straight-forward.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
(Leviticus 20:13)

There is no “ritual purity” context nor is there an exemptions for gentiles. Leviticus is to do with law and the punishment for impurity.

@darkscribe wow, here I go again
The word testament means deal.(look it up) the first testament is the first deal god made exclusively with his chosen people (the Jews). It is basicaly if you follow these rules I will protect you from the other people out there. His new deal is this: here are some new rules for everybody to follow. If you break them just apologize and Jesus’ suffering will cover it. I can look up versus for this if you like. So, Leviticus alone does not show that homosexuality is a sin now. I’m fairly sure there are others.(I think)

leviticus is the old testament. ever had a shrimp cocktail? ABOMINATION! according to the old testament at least.

speaking of “abomination” that actually means “not of our tradition.” being that the old testament is the Jewish torah and the jews were worried about all the genocide their people kept facing they made certain rules, like dont be gay because we have to copulate and make more jewish babies… yey for history!

@Sunybunny Wow – there you go again. The word testament in a Biblical sense means covenant – nothing more or less. A covenant is a commitment.

Oh, and if you want an actual reason for why churches would discourage gay relationships. it’s because gay people can’t make more children who can then be indoctrinated and become a member of the religion. It’s the same reason why the Catholic church is so against birth control, it reduces your membership, which makes you weaker compared to other religions.

Because the bible is a bunch of horse shit !

If you are gay or a lesbian i say BE PROUD of it.
BE PROUD of who you are and forget what a book tells you is right and wrong. You were created a human and given a brain to allow you to have your mind wonder and think what you what. And if you think that you are gay or a lesbian then so be it, that is what makes you you. Dont listen to a book listen to yourself. In the end all you have is yourself at the end of the day.

I haven’t seen God coming down and talking to anyone on there bed side when they are praying, because its not possible. When you lay down and close your eyes at night the only thing that matter is you and your happiness, and if being attarcted to your same gender so be it.

@kayysamm
Word!

I mean i personally am not a lesbain or gay, but trust me i have a handful or two of friends that are. They are no different then your average person walking down the street. Yes some gay guys take it to a extreme and some lesbians are a little manly. But guess what thats what makes them them. They are a person no matter what they do in the quaters of their own home.

If ‘God’ really didnt want them on the earth and it was such a ‘sin’ then they bastard would have gotten ride of any thought in a person mind that they could fall in love with the same gender. everyone alwaqys says god is so powerful so don’t you think he would elimate that thought. But he didnt so their for if you gay or lesbian POWER TO YOU. BE PROUD. SMILE AND SHOW IT OFF. its makes you.

A surfer likes to show he is a surfer and people love him for that. A good tennis player gets awarded because that makes her good. on tv now a gays some peoepl are liked and contuine their shows because how rude and annoyign they are. SO forget it if you gay, BE IT AND SMILE ! you only live once.

Injecting a bit more rationality into the matter, consider this:

If the sanctity of marriage is harmed by allowing homosexuals to marry, why is divorce allowed – nay, accepted and normal?

Fuck you.

I’ve said this before in another thread – I know a few homosexual couples with children that are fantastic parents. We laugh and are captivated by Brittany Spears and other such examples, yet once we speak of healthy relationships and happy children that happen to have two mothers or two fathers, we get upset say that those children are in danger?

Fuck you.

We allow crap shows like the Bachelor or the Bachelorette? Shows that are built on the premise that marriage is nothing more than simple entertainment? That’s our idea of morality, yet a normal, loving, homosexual relationship isn’t?

Fuck you.

Last, but not least – I’ll harp on my previous comment. The larger straight male population enjoys lesbian porn, shat that is a mockery of a true homosexual relationship. I can guarantee that if the government put out a statement that homosexual marriage would be outlawed, but lesbian porn would become illegal, the case would be shut closed in a heartbeat; there’d be so goddamn few supporters of the damn thing.

I wish these guys would just go away so we can have Utopia already.

@cwilbur : It is not my intention at all to Christian-bash. It never is. I have only mediocre respect for Christians, Christianity, and the Bible, but I never “Christian bash.” If you read my earlier comment, I also said that later, in Leviticus 19, it mentions that you can’t wear 2 different clothing fibers (which was also addressed to the Israelites only) which I said was all horseshit. Christians have chosen to make these laws of today. Well, some of the laws, anyway… there seems to be some method of selection which is beyond my understanding. If anything I’m agreeing with you that they do not apply.

I went to church quite willinly and regularly until the end of high school, and less frequently after. I went without parents, without friends, I went by myself because I was truly a believer. I was never pressured into going. I was church camp counselor for a number of years, on the Bible quiz bowl team, and was at every service I could physically attend. Do you know what I heard repeatedly for 20 some years of my life? I constantly was taught, from multiple preachers, ministers, and Sunday school teachers that the Bible is to be followed word for word. It mattered not, WHO the lessons were addressed to, it was in the Bible itself to be followed by all. Maybe I was taught wrong. But I can almost guarantee that there isn’t a single church that says that being gay is ok because that chapter was meant for Israelites only. Again, maybe you know of one, and I was taught wrong, but that makes a whole lot of other churches wrong, too.

The 10 commandments… they were given to the Israelites, too. But we are expected to embrace each of them, right? Honestly, I want to be corrected if I’m wrong. I may have been thinking this all wrong for all these years. My confusion speaks volumes of the lack of clarity in modern day Christian teachings.

I know you said you didn’t want to get into it, but I wish people would just admit that nobody knows the one and final answer about the correct way to live. The question asked was “Why is being gay a sin,” and I gave the answer. Because the Bible says so. You might not agree with the Bible, but that is the reason that today, Christians believe gays are going to rot in Hell. Again, I agree with you that it doesn’t apply in modern day America, but that’s what they believe and teach to their children.

In my opinion the correct way to live is in a way that gives you joy and does not take joy away from others.

@DarkScribe: Since you twice failed to read and understand the part where I said, “I’m not getting into this again. Use your search engine skills to read the older threads,” I’m not entirely sure that your reading comprehension of anything else is to be trusted.

@ubersiren: But your answer is wrong. Some people claim that being gay is a sin because they misread the Bible. Your generalization is also wrong: not all Christians believe gays are going to rot in Hell. I’m not getting into this again; I have gone over it twice, and at this point it feels like I’m teaching a pig to sing.

It fucking disgusts me that people who claim to be rational and tolerant, and who get so fucking upset when people smear all liberals with the same brush, are the first people to do the same damned thing to Christians, and are not willing to look past their idiotic prejudices to realize that the people shouting the loudest are actually the poorest representatives of what Christ taught and what Christ’s disciples actually did.

Saying ‘being gay is a sin’ is a sin.

@cwilbur : Right… basically what I’m saying is that it is not a sin. It’s only a sin because some people are deem it as such. It’s only a sin to those who believe it is, i.e. those who are misinterpreting the text. I don’t get why you don’t see that I’m agreeing with you, man. But that’s the “reason” that is given for why being gay is a sin. That’s where it comes from. That’s where it originates. It originates from a crap ass interpretation of an ancient text. Why is it a sin to be gay? To those who believe it is a sin, a few verses of the Bible is the answer. For those who don’t believe it’s a sin, it simply isn’t a sin and no answer is needed. You’re arguing with someone who agrees with you in principle. Furthermore, I never said all Christians think gays are going to burn in Hell. I said the churches teach that… In fact I said I can almost guarantee no churches teach that being gay is ok—- I wasn’t even definite about it! It still stands that I’ve never heard of one which teaches that being gay is perfectly fine in the eyes of God. I’d like to visit one, though! Maybe they do exist and I’ve just never been to one or heard or read about one. But sadly, I think most Christians do believe what they are taught. Some think in the intelligent way you do about the Bible and really seek true meanings behind text, and some I know choose not to believe parts that seem wrong to them, such as the laws we’ve mentioned.

Also, I am far from “liberal,” but also far from today’s Christian conservative. I’m not sure why you’re attacking me for being prejudiced. I didn’t judge anything. I never used absolutes and I never assumed anything—I only gave examples from my own experience. It seems you’re the one who is judging, telling me that I’m smearing all Christians with the same brush and putting me in the “liberal” category.

I think if you’re a christian it denotes a belief and faith in the bible. That is one’s own choice and if they choose to follow the bible so be it. I choose not define myself by a religion, however I do question such things ABOUT the bible, not IN the bible such as re-writes etc. According to a quick google search I did, the word “homosexual” did not show up in the bible until 1946. That’s a pretty serious time jump from when “the world of god” was believed to have been written. The bible as we know it today has been re-translated SO MANY TIMES that it’s hard to know if anything is what it was originally meant to say at this point. I could believe in “the word of god” it’s “the translation of man” that makes me unwilling to believe this stack of paper bound together can tell me what is or is not a “sin”.

@ubersiren: There are a large number of Congregationalist (UCC) churches that teach that it’s okay to be gay. There are a large number of Episcopalian churches that teach that it’s okay to be gay. There are a large number of Unitarian Universalist churches that teach that it’s okay to be gay. There are a large number of Quaker meetings that teach that it’s okay to be gay.

How can you have lived to the age you are now without even hearing about them? Did you miss the furor when the Episcopal diocese of New Hampshire elected an openly gay bishop who has a partner, and thousands of people had conniption fits? Have you not heard about the churches that have spoken up in favor of gay marriage? Are you living under a rock?

You’re almost guaranteeing things that you are clearly out of touch with. If you don’t want to be attacked, don’t speak authoritatively about things you’re ignorant of.

@adreamofautumn: the essence of being a Christian is in believing that Christ died as a sacrifice of atonement for all sins. The Bible is a historical document that attests to this, and if you want to get anything out of it, you need to read it in its historical context. It’s not a clear-cut instruction manual as some people would have you believe.

Further, it hasn’t been rewritten; it’s been retranslated, as our understanding of earlier times and dead languages improve. Each generation of translators has brought a new combination of biases to the text, but this also means that if we look at several translations and at the earliest versions we can obtain, we can come to a more accurate understanding of the text.

@cwilbur -rewritten; it’s been retranslated… etc. – thank you, it needed to be said.

Where is The Interpreter’s Bible when you need it? My Dad used to keep all twelve volumes in his office.

Look at it this way: “Sin” is what separates us from God. Being homosexual, of itself, should not separate us from God: saying such a thing is like holding that white cats are usually deaf (that is simply not true).

@cwilbur Since you twice failed to read and understand the part where I said, “I’m not getting into this again. Use your search engine skills to read the older threads,” I’m not entirely sure that your reading comprehension of anything else is to be trusted.

Did you mean “as” you twice… ? (Segueing into the “Do you correct grammar…” question).

No I read and understood what you said – I chose to ignore it. More fun that way. I have no real interest in a biased interpretation of an already incredibly biased book. No matter how YOU want to interpret it, many thousands of true scholars have interpreted it the same way that I do. I don’t agree with what it says, but I do KNOW what it says. The imaginary God, doesn’t think that guys should have sex with each other, and it they do, he wants them dead. End of story. (Makes you wonder why – if he is so powerful – he wants others to stone them for him. Why doesn’t he just zap them himself?) Pure laziness?

@DarkScribe: if fifty million people say a moronic thing, it is still a moronic thing.

And if one person says “fifty million people think as I do,” and points at the morons, that makes his viewpoint no less wrong.

@cwilbur if fifty million people say a moronic thing, it is still a moronic thing.

Keep going. You have neither impressed nor convinced me yet – but don’t give up.

I don’t think that two centuries of theologians, archeologists, and biblical scholars are likely to all make the same “moronic” comments – as you apparently do. That is your right – you have a inalienable right to be wrong. ;)

(You aren’t a member of the “Flat Earth Society” are you? It would seem to require a similar mindset. )

There are scholars who interpret the bible many ways. some say that god hates fags, some say that the leviticus story of sodom and gomorrah is not about gay sex at all, rather it is about about rape.

men raping men was (and still is) used as a dehumanizing tactic in war and other situations where one person is trying to exert power over the other. rape is entirely different than 2 people willingly having sex for enjoyment.

For The Bible Tells Me So Trailer
(this is just the trailer, but i suggest that anyone interested should watch the whole movie. it follows several christian families with gay children. but more importantly there are a number of theologians and biblical scholars who offer interesting interpretations of the bible that take into account ALL of the bible, not just one scripture)

@DarkScribe: meanwhile, all you have to offer is appeal to numbers (”thousands of true scholars”), the “no real Scotsman” fallacy (“thousands of true scholars”—as if no scholar who disagrees with you is “true”), and argument to unnamed authority (“theologians, archaeologists, and biblical scholars”).

I’ve laid out the argument. If rehearsing a half-dozen fallacies is the best you can do to refute it, you really have no place calling me wrong.

@cwilbur You’re wrong. :)

Keep digging. When you actually want to try making a serious point, you might start by seeing if you can find examples of your argument here—it’s a primer on logical argumentation written by atheists and aimed at argumentative Christians, but since you don’t seem about to discover any new fallacies, it would probably serve you well too.

Once again the bible is horse shit. It a bunch of drunken retards bored out of there mind who were probably completely stoned and wrote a book that everyone thinks is going to save their lives.

Being who you are, truthfully, is never a sin. That some people think it a sin, I can’ t deny, but in my opinion, they are not thinking logically. There is morality, there is no sin.

@dannyc Being who you are, truthfully, is never a sin.

In that case they should release all prisoners who aren’t someone else. Immediately.

@DarkScribe: Not all sins are crimes, and not all crimes are sins. Prisoners tend to have committed crimes, not sins.

@cwilbur Prisoners tend to have committed crimes, not sins

Ok, if dannyc is correct then we need to release all of those who have committed a crime that is regarded as a sin. Murder, rape, robbery, that sort of thing.

(Actually a sin is an offense against God, a person, or a principle.)

Are people who live in sin still virgins in dannyc’s world? It sound like a fun place to live.

Where have you been cwilbur? I have missed you – I was beginning to think that you didn’t love me anymore. You haven’t disputed a post of mine for hours.

Um, no. There’s a significant difference between “not all sins are crimes” and “no sins are crimes.”

And I am limiting myself to correcting errors of fact and argumentation for the benefit of others; if you had any inclination to amend your ways, you would have done so by now.

Once more: being gay could not be a sin. Unless it is a state that one has voluntarily become: is such a thing logically possible?

ok wait did we decide if the bible is saying that one can be gay as long as one doesn’t have gay sex? i know some people mentioned it earlier but did we come to some “conclusion”?

Did we reach that conclusion? a few years ago it might have convinced me but not any more. There is more to sex than the physical, and more to love than the emotion: why are we made that way? There is evidently something wrong about our attitudes to sex. And the Bible, too, is somewhat contradictory when it comes to sexual behaviour. We are missing something.

@cwilbur And I am limiting myself to correcting errors of fact and argumentation for the benefit of others

That is admirable of you. I hope that you eventually get it right.

(I do much the same thing, although I don’t take myself as seriously as you seem to do.)

Being gay is not to be afraid of. It is something that triggers investigation and scrutiny why these things happen in the four corners of the world. For as long as you are happy with what you are doing and that you are extending help to poor and needy ones, then there is no big deal about it. Believing that Jesus is the “Messiah and The Son Of God” I think God can look into it since what is important is You have the compensating factor of the things that you have done in life. Dont judge people or else you will be experiencing the same scenario. Just always remember that putting God in the center of your life is a very remarkable thing to do.