Is opposing gay marriage or evolution unChristian?
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I guess that would depend on your definition of “Christian.”
Not only UNchristian but, also, UNintelligent,
Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Opposing gay marriage does not go against the Bible. That’s just one of the verses, by the way.
@DrasticDreamer
It sounds like that verse opposes gay sex, not gay marriage.
@Ivan They go hand in hand. But, okay, here’s another one: God’s word identifies husband-wife relations as “natural relations” and homosexual relations as “unnatural ones” (Romans 1:26–27) and “perversion” (vs. 27).
Leviticus 11:9–12 (King James Version)
9These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
apparently god doesn’t want you to eat lobster either.
I guess you could make a valid distinction between opposing and not agreeing with. I can see why a Christian might believe that gay marriage (I think @Ivan‘s splitting hairs here) and evolution are not compatible with the Bible. But opposing goes beyond that. I do think that it would be unChristian to work to deprive others of the choice to not believe and act by the same measure.
Oppossing it is one thing. Berating people because of their sexuality, or causing violence, or discriminating against them, including not allowing gays equal rights under law (which bars discrimination) is un-Christian.
@tinyfaery
If you opposed gay marriage why would you ever vote to let it happen?
If you are oppossed and think it’s a sin then don’t do it. To deny others their right to choice is a totally different thing. Did Jesus discriminate against others?
As a side note, might I remark that it’s mainly – if not exclusively – American Christians who worry about this sort of thing?
Christianity has been the dominant religion in the Netherlands for centuries, but to my knowledge everyone here is cool with homosexual marriage, and Young Earth Creationists are chased away in tar and feathers.
Dutch Christians are pretty cool.
@Myndecho
How do you draw the connection between disapproving of gay marriage and making sure it never happens?
@Ivan
If you believe God is the divine creator and he said homosexuality was wrong, I would go with him.
Then again God isn’t forcing us not to kill or forcing us not to do any of our sins, it’s just going to hell is something to be a avoided
@Fyrius The American Episcopal church appointed an openly gay bishop a few years back, and was then excoriated by members of the Anglican communion form other parts of the globe.
What did Jesus have to say about homosexuality?
Absolutely nothing . . .
So even some Christians believe it’s non-Christian. Interesting.
Thank you for that link, @Fyrius It simply demonstrates that our corner of the universe, like everywhere else, is very, very complex. If homosexual behaviour in animals is known and recorded in the scientific literature (up to and including IgNobel prize winning research) then why the Biblical prohibition? Possibly the idea here is to enforce the primacy of the human over other creation.
@bea2345
it is more likely that the primitive humans didn’t know that this was normal in nature (i think they generally did not know much about it, the bible claims that bats are birds), and thought “eww this is gross, lets make it a capital offence”.
@tinyfaery, in the “old days” Christian = Catholic, then it became Christian = Catholic + Protestant. Now we have a subset of Christians who claim the designation of Christian as their own, usurping the Catholic assertion of being “The One True Church.”
My take is, if you have to quote it, quote King James. Anything modernized is worded towards a contemporary political agenda. Not that the Bible in its earliest forms wasn’t a political document. Getting everyone to agree on one agenda in a time of high illiteracy and no mass communication required a great deal of skill.
@Kayak8: Very true, Jesus did not explicitly say anything about homosexual behavior or marriage. He did however follow the law of Moses which condemns homosexual behavior. Additionally he had stated in Mark 10:6–8…at the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be united to his wife.. Not that it speaks against homosexuality but I think his belief was that marriage was for a man and a woman.
With that said the divorce rate in church is the same as the rest of society (~50%), Christian folks aren’t setting a great example to even really have have a say in this argument, as they are incredibly hypocritical and should be pointed out as such until something changes.
Also Jesus’ ministry spoke more about the sins of the spirit than the sins of the body. Our reading of the Bible in its entirety is one of a loving, forgiving and nurturing God who wants us to help create a world that accepts and empowers us all. I in no way can expect a non-believer to act as I do, nor should I hold them to the same standards as their morals are based in something completely and utterly different than my own. Jesus taught us that love and forgiveness are the most important aspects of a Christian life. Because of this and my previous statement, berating homosexuals, as @tinyfaery previously stated, and denying them the choice to live their own life as they see fit is not my job, nor should it be.
being gay is immoral and Christianity has morals
@hiiiiiiii Enlighten me, please… so judging people’s morality is moral?
@Likeradar
That’s gods place not mine. I just what I want and you can’t judge me and if you do I will judge being gay as wrong.
@Myndecho
I’m not talking about agreeing or disagreeing with God. I’m talking about making those opinions the law. There’s a difference between disapproving of gay marriage and making it illegal. Do you think that all Christian rules should be the law? Should it be illegal to wear clothes made of more than one fiber, for instance?
@Ivan
God is higher than law. And yes
@hiiiiiiii
So all of the Bible’s rules should be made into law then?
sigh, Judi’s recent question about Christianity just got a fantastic first person answer.
@hiiiiiiii
so we should kill every teen that disobeys their parents?
and we should kill everyone who has sex withsomeone other than his/her wife/husband
and we make eating lobster illegal as well as mixed fibre clothing.
@ragingloli
yes if that’s what God says because he knows more than us
@hiiiiiiii
Ok then. Here’s a list of new laws you should be forced to follow.
Don’t wear clothes made of more than one fiber.
Don’t shave or cut your hair.
If you curse your parents, you have to be killed.
Adulterous couples need to be killed.
If you have sex with an animal, both you and the animal have to be killed.
You can’t eat shellfish.
If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they have to be exiled.
If a priest’s daughter is a whore, she has to be burned at the stake.
Anyone who blasphemes God has to be stoned to death.
If someone suggests to worship another God, kill them.
Don’t allow different kinds of cattle to graze together.
Stop feeding the troll please
@Ivan
We may not understand his ways but I’m guess God will know more than us.
I’m Christian not a troll
@hiiiiiiii
Thank Odin you have no political power.
@hiiiiiiii
I don’t care about that. You have to do all of those things, under punishment of the law.
@ragingloli
God has more power than all of them put together
@hiiiiiiii
Great, better start following those rules then.
@hiiiiiiii
really
well then, would someone please report hiiiiiii to the police for multiple murders?
@hiiiiiiii
My father is an asshole.
There, it is now your duty to kill me. If you don’t, you are not following the Bible’s laws.
Also, you better start lobbying Congress for these rules to be enacted as law just as hard as you are for the gay marriage ban.
@Ivan
you were only joking so I don’t have to kill you
@ragingloli
He did that to prove a point not because he feels it
@hiiiiiiii
Tell me, when’s the last time you cut your hair or ate a shrimp? Have you checked the tags on your shirts? Are they all only made of one fiber?
@Ivan
If I didn’t know it was a sin how can I be blamed?
@hiiiiiiii
also the only gods who have more power than the Great Odin are Longcat and Tacgnol
@hiiiiiiii
Chalk the gays up as “not knowing it’s a sin.”
@berocky1
If I could he wouldn’t be much of a god
@Ivan
It’s not funny to play with gods words
I believe this has run its course.
@hiiiiiiii . . .do i need to actually go to the trouble of dragging out your answers to other threads to show how UNchristian you really are?
Ok, how about a question you asked.
“Why is religion a common subject in most schools rather than learning mythology?”
Doesn’t seem to be a very Christian question to me. Almost seems like it’s comparing Chritianity to being merely a myth.
@hiiiiiiii
It is said that Longcat is part of a foursome of powerful cats that, when brought together, shall restore peace and harmony throughout the land.
“
There shall be Four. One of Air, his fur white as snow. His power shall enlighten the masses, and herald the beginning. The second of Earth, black as the night. The darkness will be overwhelming, but do not fear! He has come as a harbinger of the goodness to come. The thrice appearance of a creature of great length, this one coloured as though wrapped in the very flame it represents, will appear to assuade our fears of the nigh end.Though it will be met with hate and loathing, it shall soldier on to aid us. The final, the fourth, shall emerge from the great oceans as though it was born of them, joining it’s brothers and spreading harmony as it walks.
Together, the Four Felines will combine their great power, and summon a fifth, a creature of pure heart, radiant and beautiful. He, mighty and virile, will open the soul of all followers, and lead them to the land of ultimate delight. Never again will people have to buy dogs or get in their cars! No more will innocent yellow vans tremble at the approaching horde! The fruit of our reptilian labors will come, and feline power shall rule to cosmos!
„
To be semantic, I am not sure the bible actually address gay marriage, only gay actions. So, I don’t think Christians can find literal support to be against the marriage. But in the spirit of the bible, it’s not unchristian.
Evolution could be seen as the way God created life, so that’s a matter of aspect. I don’t find it unchristian to be against evolution, as I don’t expect much from christianity, but I don’t find it christian either. If this is the way God created life, then it wouldn’t be very christian.
As it seems as christian can follow their own spice of christianity, it’s kind of hard to say whats unchristian there. In the end a matter of interpretation, as most christian aspects.
@oratio Gay marriage would be considered a “gay action”. Sex is not the only part of a gay person’s life. It’s entire relationships, which would also include marriage.
For Christians to say that the Bible accepts gay people is ridiculous. I can’t stand it when “believers” pick and choose what parts of the Bible to follow.
@DrasticDreamer
I know everyone should believe everything a person said or wrote or nothing. Some people I know only believe some of the things Obama tells them.
@hiiiiiiii I know. People should accept the fact that god is a bigot. He lays it out in plain sight. I mean, how much more obvious could it be?
@DrasticDreamer
People just have to accept being a bigot isn’t a bad thing.
@hiiiiiii People just have to accept that if the Bible god exists, he’s stupid and imperfect, just like so many people. But maybe it’s not too late for Him. People may be able to show Him the Right Path.
@hiiiiiiii . . .If you are so solid in your convictions, why would you try to bring in another account named lort in this question?
@hiiiiiiii Okay: If God exists, he is not perfect. If anything, He is stupid just like the humans He created. We were created in His image, after all.
Well if we are all perfect, so are gay people. Fuck. Can you please stop contradicting yourself.
@hiiiiiiii Humans are far from perfect. Is murder, rape and pedophilia perfect? Lying? Cheating? Stealing? Didn’t think so.
And yes, tinyfaery is right. You just said that gay people are perfect. They are, after all, human.
@hiiiiiiiii Gay people are human, therefore, they are perfect.
@hiiiiiiii Who says sins exist? I don’t see any proof for that. Nor for God. Amazing how that works.
@hiiiiiiii Ummmm. If sins were NOT imperfect, would they be sins at ALL? Didn’t think so.
@hiiiiii You just said God made sin. God also made gay people. If being gay is a sin and sins are perfect, gay people are perfect. Try to follow your own logic.
@hiiiiiiii If something is perfect, what’s not to like about it? Are you telling me that you’re going to willingly, knowingly dislike one of God’s perfect creations? Well… I don’t think that would make God too happy.
@hiiiiiiii . . .I see you have no problem trying to fight with the womenfolk. How about returning to our discussion?
@hiiiiiiii But God created it and everything he creates is perfect. It can’t be wrong if it’s perfect.
@hiiiiiiii If that’s true then stop trying to argue in God’s name.
@hiiiiiiii Abraham changed Gods mind on a couple of occasions. If God would be perfect, I don’t think God could be swayed. Of course, you could consider Abraham as equally perfect to God’s perfection and that there are many perfections. Where does perfection start and end?
@DrasticDreamer Come on. His logic is totally sound. God is perfect. People are perfect. God doesn’t like sin, and you are punished for it, but sin is perfect, like God and humans. But, gay sex is a sin. But gay sex is perfect, because we are all perfect. See. simple.~
@tinyfaery Boy, is it!
@hiiiiii God told me to tell you you’re an idiot.
@hiiiiiiii
what, can you say that again? I don’t really get it.
@hiiiiiiii Yeah, you’re right. It’s more like blackheart. Sorry, my mistake.
… i feel like i stumbled into a kindergarten
@ragingloli I totally agree! I thought we were all supposed to discuss things like adults(even though I’m not 18 until next month). If we(flutherers) can’t have a civilized conversation, how are we to expect our world is to be pulled out of this economic downturn and environmental crisis. If we can’t respectfully disagree with each other on fluther, where educated intelligent people are supposed to come. than i have no hope for the world.
Kind of upsetting when you think about it.
@berocky1 . . .some of the greatest thinkers in history were jealous, bullying, and arrogant beyond belief. intelligence does not denote manners.
@Blondesjon
I’m confused, what are you trying to say? What i draw from your post is that people may feel jealous and act arrogant, but does that justify being rude? I think not.
@berocky1 . . .Oh no. I’m not trying to justify anything. I just got from your post that “educated intelligent people” were above crass emotions and actions like jealousy, bullying, and arrogance.
I was merely stating that they are not.
Educated, intelligent people are worse. They tend toward egotism and feel they have the right to chastise others as being less than.
Response moderated
GO TROLL SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!
Modern interpretation of Christianity:
Supporting science including evolution is very wise and the right thing to do. Evolution is God’s method to upgrade species.
@tinyfaery Yeah, everyone being both stupid and uneducated would be better. ~ You made a huge, sweeping generalization there.
@likeradar The assumption is yours. No where did I say being stupid and uneducated is better.
I think it needs to be said that there do exist highly educated and truly brilliant people who still manage to be the very epitome of modesty. Like me.
Why yes, I do think a lame and obvious joke is what this thread needs at this point.
For a more serious remark, I think it’s forgiveable if people who really are more intelligent and more educated than most people sometimes have trouble resisting the urge to point it out. I figure it must be difficult not to be condescending at times, if everyone around you is so slow and irrational all the time that it makes your skin top the world record for longest time spent crawling.
Excuses for treating people like shit? I think not.
Are we talking about just being a belittling jerk or about any kind of abuse here? “Treating people like shit” reminds me more of the latter than of the former.
A proclivity to either is surely a character flaw, but I would encourage you to try to be just a little bit understanding about the former. Exceptionally intelligent dickheads are just people too, who can get annoyed by other people.
And I have the impression that intelligent but antisocial people often have long histories of being disrespected by more mediocre minds, and bullied by the other kids who didn’t get straight A’s. I don’t think it’s hard to understand how consistently being treated like shit (sometimes quite literally) for being really good at something can make you disrespect mediocrity.
It also tends to lead to a low self esteem, which they will then try to alleviate by showing off what they’re good at. Which usually makes other people feel uncomfortable, because intelligence is considered to be a quality everyone should have – unlike being good at sports, art or fashion, about which you can brag until the cows come home without anyone taking offence.
It’s really a tricky predicament to be in.
I’ve been around a lot of people like this, and always considered them “my kind of people.” I might be biased by that.
@Fyrius . . .It has been my experience that anyone who has to point out their own intelligence and education are either shallow or insecure and usually not quite as bright as they believe themselves to be.
puts on jeremy clarkson mask.
This is the new Fyrius. His brain produces a staggering IQ of 1001 break horse power, which makes him the most intelligent man…. in the world.
@Blondesjon
That may be so.
But since we’re specifically talking about “Educated, intelligent people [who] tend toward egotism and feel they have the right to chastise others as being less than”, I assume the subject is narrowed down to exclude those who only think they’re so smart, and are dead wrong about it.
@Fyrius . . .“Educated, intelligent people [who] tend toward egotism and feel they have the right to chastise others as being less than”
I may not be the smartest fella in the world, but I belive anyone who needs to blow their own “smart horn” falls into this catagory.
hence my post
@oratio. . .Yes! Pepsi, Pepsi, PEPSI!
the last time i drank pepsi it had a disgusting tooth-filling like aftertaste
@ragingloli Yes, but don’t forget that german soda is full of cocaine.
Christianity….
It is not about Gay Marriages. It is about loving your fellow human being
I do not agree that homosexuality is “normal”. We are on the fence with that subject. But, I will not stand in the way of your rights as individuals on this planet.
It is not about evolution. It is about understanding who God is. 6 thousand or 6 billion years. The story makes the same point.
We need to stop the petty bickering in this world.
It’s normal that a certain percentage (a minority) of the male and female population is homosexual. Scientific research is still ongoing and very likely there’s a combination of genetic factors and hormone levels during the early pregnancy. Every embryo is female at first till gene expressions from the Y chromosome kick in. Eventually this triggers more hormonal reactions inside the unborn male baby influencing the wiring of the brain. The INAH 3 interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus might play a critical role, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INAH_3
“It’s normal that a certain percentage (a minority) of the male and female population is homosexual.”
That is speculation and assumption. We still don’t know.
When you use terms like “Scientific research is still ongoing.” and “might play”. You are using theory and speculation to make a point.
But, you do have a right to your opinion.
@ChazMaz
Not necessarily. A statement like this could just be a statistical observation that in any society, worldwide, a percentage of the population tends to be homosexual. We wouldn’t need to know much about what causes it to be able to make that sort of observation. The word “normal” would then simply be used in the sense of “common”.
I interpret Matt’s post to contain two statements – one statement about the causes, about which research is ongoing, and one less tentative statement about statistical trends.
I’m now going to turn to @mattbrowne and ask if this is what he meant.
(clears throat)
Matt, is this what you meant?
(And if so, would you happen to have a reference to the statisticians who investigated this?)
In other news, the sound of people saying “you have a right to your opinion” when we’re talking about factual matters is like that of nails on a blackboard to me.
Many years ago I read a book whose title, as near as I can remember, was “One in seven” (or ten, or eleven; I forget). It was a treatise written for young people explaining, without judging, homosexuality. The author gave definitions, social, political and religious connotations of being homosexual; explained the effects of ostracism and hostility on the gay community, and so on. It was very interesting. The title refers to a statistic that claimed that one in seven (or whatever) people is gay.
@Fyrius and @ChazMaz
Yes, my statement can have two meaning although when I made it my focus was on potential causes. Let’s start with the obvious again: the observation of a population. Take 1000 men and show them erotic pictures or films. Ask them what they feel or better yet put them in an fMRI scanner and watch what turns them on.
Cause? Research is beyond speculation. There are interesting observations e.g. the size of the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus. When I say scientific research is still ongoing, this doesn’t mean nothing has been revealed. Scientific research on cancer is also still ongoing, this doesn’t mean everything we know about cancer is speculation.
@mattbrowne
Lacking anything more substantial to criticise about what you just said, I’m just going to nitpick about your proposed experiment.
Firstly, why only men?
Secondly, I do think sexual preference is a tad more complicated that either or not being turned on by porn featuring your own gender. For one thing it’s more of a continuous spectrum between completely straight and completely homosexual, and for another there are additional dimensions, such as romantic rather than sexual attraction.
@Fyrius – Take 1000 women and do the same. Sure. And yes, I believe in a continuous spectrum as well which explains bisexuality.
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