Does a child ever deserve to be struck? What if they hit you?

A good ass-whoopin’ is good for character, in my opinion.

Agreed with Grisaille…. I would never “beat” my child or abuse them. But I think there are PLENTY of reasons that a parent would be totally justified in spanking, slapping, or otherwise physically punishing their child. In fact in some cases I would consider a failure to do so bad parenting.

When I have kids, I will not be afraid to use a bit of force. And they MOST DEFINITELY will not be spoiled.

In the youtube video the child after hitting the parent asks, “how does that feel?” like the child has been hit in the same way. This is significant to me if the parent is constantly hitting the kid, but she controlled herself this time because she knows she is being filmed.

I think the only time I would hit my kid would be for safety. If my 3 year old insisted on running into the street to spite me, and I had tried many other ways to disuade him, but he kept rebelling I might spank him as a last resort to control his very dangerous to himself behavior. Otherwise, I can’t think of a reason to hit your kid.

I can only think of one time that my mom hit me. I was fifteen and called her a whore. I deserved it.

Protip: You can raise children without hitting them. My sister has three and has never hit them.

Wrong to hit your kid and in many states can put you in legal jeaopardy. I never went beyond slapping a wrist and that was taking a risk. Most psychologists will advice against as well

“what if they hit you?”
wtf kind of line of thought is that? if you’re child threatens to call child services then they probably have a reason and if they dont child services will find out.

hitting your child for that reason tells them they too can hit anyone that disobeys their requests.

more importantly physcial violence or anything of the sort does not teach a kid not to do a specific act. it only teaches them not to get caught, as the fear or danger is reassigned to the parent rather than whatever it is that they did to “deserve” the punishment.

@JLeslie I thought about that too, she more than likely has hit her child, and he’s probably developed violent tendencies from it. But that usually just results in that kid being a bully in school. It’s a whole new level of crazy for a kid to strike his parent like that, imo.

@johnpowell No, we’re very much aware.

What upsets me is when I see one of two things:

1. A 8 year old telling his mother to “fuck off and let me play Halo, bitch” or

2. Parents keeping their children on leashes because they are too timid to give a slap on the wrist, paired with a stern “No.”

And you bet my mother beat my ass – when she found out about my little “side-business” when I was 16, I got the beat down in my life. And I thank her for it.

Well He may be getting out of control

I don’t want kids, but if i did happen to have any, then i wouldn’t have a problem with hitting them (not like properly beating them but you know what i mean) because i dont know i just think it kind of teaches them useful stuff, which i cant really explain, but i think i know what i mean (?)
But i think i depends on the reason you hit them, i think they can tell, because i hate my dad (partly) for the reasons he would hit me. But my mum, you get the impression it was just because i was being a little asshole and she got kinda angry, dont have a problem with that, it must be infuriating having some pain of a kid being a complete twat all the time.
But as I say if its just because you’re like my dad and what he’s like psychologically or whatever its not good (man im getting so angry thinking about it =P ha…)

@SeventhSense That little mother fucker would get an elbow from the sky.

if you believe in what’s right and moral, then whipping out the “rod” is not out of order. today, spanking a child could get you arrested especially if you do it in public. the social standards and laws have changed since the 1960s.

wanna spank your child? do it at home to be safe. for loving parents, it probably hurts you more to do it than anything, but nonetheless, children in their early years need correction. without it, you’ll pay in the long run as the parent.

a spanking is not abuse. it is abuse when the “giver” cannot control emotion. he or she may have had a bad day and that’s understandable, but the loving, stable parent can multitask and give correction where due without going too far.

@Grisaille :: My sister has three kids that have never been hit. Two of them are eight and the other is 15. The twins have kids over all the time that think hitting is how you resolve problems. And those are the kids that have parents that hit/spank.

The twins haven’t (to my knowledge) ever been accused of hitting anyone.

@johnpowell B-b-but…

._.

I have never hit my kids and don’t see myself doing so. I’m fairly certain they would never hit me, as that is not a model they have seen. I’m also fairly certain that if they did I would not hit them back. They would lose every single privilege they have, from television to playing outside to video games to toys, for a good long time, but I don’t see hitting as the proper response.

Kids don’t learn anything from violence except to fear you. Ethical lessons should be driven home with a good argument that sticks with the child, or with contact-free punishments that force them to think. Physical force should only be used as a last resort, after a very clear warning to make sure that it is not a substitute for communication but instead an illustration of consequences. Making your children love and respect you is far more effective than making them submit to your authority; if they respect you, they will try to win your respect, but if they just fear the consequences you impose, they will just try to get away with what they can.

I recognize that in some cases, kids will not listen to rational argument, and building a respectful relationship can be difficult. However, I think that if that does not work, then revocation of privileges is still a more viable alternative to physical violence. If you regularly express disapproval by inflicting pain, the punishment for the child becomes the pain, not your disapproval; they don’t have to feel guilty, because they have already suffered, and so they can move on to resenting you. My mother may have slapped me three times in my life, and they were vastly more powerful for their rarity; if my parents had tried to do it regularly, the punishment would have become simply physical and the intensity of her disapproval would have lost its sting. Worse, I would have ceased to respect them. Instead, because they never use corporal punishment, I now would do much more to avoid disappointing them than I would to avoid the mild pain of a spanking.

Finally, you are supposed to be a role model for your child. Not only may you be demonstrating your own lack of self-control by dissolving into blows, or even by raising your voice, you are teaching them that violence is a proper substitute for respect when you are in a position of authority. That is not the kind of lesson you should be teaching your children.

now as far as this video, here’s the problem: THE PARENT.

in this case, the mother very early on did not recognize when correction was necessary. she thought certain behaviors when the child was young was “cute.”

parents sometimes are unable to discern what is cute and what is something that needs correction. she also felt that the child was too young to spank. my opinion: fix it right now with that belt. spare the rod and spoil the child.

all my kids had spankings in their very early years and ain’t a damn thing wrong with them today. all on the honor roll and/or working and in college. all have aspirations to be like dad and mom. all do chores and get allowances. all go to church and come home when it’s time to come home. it starts with the parent.

I have three highly intelligent, well adjusted, high honor roll, polite, beautiful children.

I am the worst parent in the world.

You tell me how that happened.

Somehow discipline has come to mean the same thing as abuse.

Abuse is not a good thing for anyone child or adult.

A swat on the bottom when they are 2 or 3 is not abuse and means you won’t have one the age of the kid on the film clip acting the way he did. He will have learned that is not the way to behave towards authority figures.

It there is a physical reason for the behavior, that must be addressed.

@Blondesjon you froze them during the most difficult years?

@SuperMouse . . .shhh…everyone will be doing it now…

There are all sorts of people who, in their nostalgia and respect for their parents, somehow come to think that their abuse as a child was deserved and that they are a better person for it (I think I remember a Fluther question about this).

Well let me just say this. My father struck me a total of 2 times as a child, and it was abuse, and it did negatively affect my adulthood, and it was not justified.

I am sickened by otherwise progressive individuals reverting back to archaic morality just to preserve some sort of false image of their parents.

@Ivan . . .you don’t have any children, do you?

@SuperMouse @Blondesjon

I’m so f’n pissed I missed that thread.

@Blondesjon

No, and if having children will turn me into a medieval ogre, then I don’t want to.

@Rsam “more importantly physical violence or anything of the sort does not teach a kid not to do a specific act. it only teaches them not to get caught” interesting point.

@Ivan . . .you don’t believe in god but you believe in ogres?!?

oh and also, if your kids try to hit you…
i remember being pinned to a door for doing that by my mum
and when i set on my dad with a chipboard thing (good times) well actually i cant remember what he did…
but once again, dont seem to find it bad if its out of anger, because that’s just what humans feel (i think, or thats how i always felt then…)

I think that the kid in the video points out a very important concept though:
Pimpin’ aint easy

When you strike a child, you are demonstrating that it is okay to use violence when one cannot think of anything else to do. I have no children, but I would never want to teach them that.

i think my brother and i only “threatened” to call child services once.
my mom’s response: “fine, go ahead, they’ll probably put you in a home worse than where you are now”
we both thought about it and knew it was true.
we were never spoiled but we knew we didn’t have it bad either.
we got hit and we learned.
my younger sister, on the other hand, got spoiled by everyone in the house and never got hit even though i think she’s the worst of the three.
she’s growing up not caring about anything, and not wanting to make a difference in her life. (with school, family, or even friends)
she lives with reckless abandon and i get worried about her.
i blame my parents that they didn’t discipline her as they did with my bother and i…

Well I don’t think physical force is a good lesson and I know how tempting it is. As a former teacher I wanted to throw some of them out of the window at times. It takes a tremendous amount of patience to lay down boundaries and then consistently apply them. Sometimes a parent needs to use physicality though in picking up a child again and again and putting them in Time Out or a similar punishment. And at times it seems more expedient to give them a swat on the butt. It’s hard to say. With highly willful children it may be more detrimental to use force because it escalates.

The goal of course is to raise self regulated children that don’t need fear of force to make good decisions. Sometimes , the threat of violence teaches children to be well behaved for the sake of appearances. But sometimes a swat on the butt for one kid will be that’s all that’s necessary for the behavior to not recur. There’s a gray area too. We also yank the hand of our children abrubtly to stop them running out into traffic.
Reason with your child… within reason.

I do believe spanking can be used properly, but I don’t forsee us ever using it. I would prefer to use positive parenting, and explain to them the problem.
But, like this situation just with children, you get angry when the child does something so bad, and in my opinion (and it would have to be something severe) a spanking might be in order.

No. Spanking is not effective. I was educated in psychology and did my fair share of research on the topic. Why use an ineffective method? Anyone can argue all they want about how it does work, how it worked for you yourself, but the research does not support these arguments. There are much more effective and humane ways of raising children. And the reason children are getting spoiled or “out of hand” has little to do with spanking practices and more to do with other family dynamics. I also want to add that just because someone was spanked as a child and grew up alright does not make the practice acceptable. In my cultural group spanking was not a disciplinary method and we survived ages so it can be done. Why choose violence when there are other options?

And I think this statement is quite scary “I will put my child in line”. Now that is not healthy thinking.

erased by me because I couldn’t adequately put my thoughts into words, apologies

I do not believe it is ever a good policy to teach children by hitting them. Raising well adjusted well behaved children without ever hitting them has to start from the very beginning. You have to be firm, and sometimes physically restrain them, but the best plan is to direct them to the behavior you want.

It is a long, involved process, and a lot more difficult than simply smacking them, which works real fast.

Edit I hit answer before I was done

If an older child hits, or attacks, the problem has progressed way beyond spanking, and into the realm of professional help. The parents need to find a good, licensed, experienced family counselor.

I think that raising a well adjusted child has more to do with letting them know, constantly, that you love them and taking an active interest in what they are doing.

I think enough of the above does give them an understanding of what a slap on the wrist or a swat on the butt means. It also means that you don’t give out many slaps on the wrist or swats on the butt.

@Blondesjon You are correct, but any teaching method that relies on deliberately causing physical pain just doesn’t work for me.

@Blondesjon

In what possible context does hitting someone say send the message of, “I love you”?

@YARNLADY . . .The best thing about being an individual is that your way works for you and my way works for me.

…and i think to myself, what a wonderful world…

@Ivan. . .It doesn’t. Either your reading comprehension skills are lacking or you are being deliberately obtuse.

I’ll admit to being inadvertently obtuse this time.

@Blondesjon Actually, my way would work for you also, if you were to come to the conclusion that hitting is always wrong.

Well spanking says I love you when we are in the bedroom and…

censored by a rogue element lurking in my conscience

@SeventhSense You’re not alone there, even this old Grandma thought of that.

I originally thought I’d never strike my kids, ever. Period. But then, when I actually had the child, things went differently. I’ve never done anything but light slaps on the wrist if he’s throwing things or getting into something he knew he wasn’t supposed to, especially dangerous stuff. THEN, it started to backfire. If I wasn’t paying enough attention to him, or if I was making him get a bath when he didn’t want to, he’d smack my arm. So, I’ve been trying other methods. My husband is very good at this… he says, “That’s not appropriate. We don’t throw toys at the tv/cat/windows.” At first I never imagined it would work. What 2 year old knows what ‘not appropriate’ means? After a while, he has started to understand. It’s gotten so much better, in fact, that all I have to do is give him the ‘mom look’ and he says, “Not appropriate” and hangs his head in shame. It’s fantastic!

My parents spanked me when I was young only a few times, but honestly, I’m more affected by the verbal abuse that happened and which is now continuing into my adulthood.

Adults who work with potentially violent kids are taught restraining techniques. Maybe parents should know these, too.

@ubersiren May I suggest there are appropriate ways to teach children to use their hands to express their feelings. One way is to throw balls at the wall (as allowed only), to use a paint brush in a prepared place (use lots of plastic to protect rug and furniture), and to use a boxing trainer. There are cheap, inflatables designed specifically for hitting, and don’t forget ‘boppies’ which are to hit each other with.

Only “hit” my daughter once, when she was in diapers, when she got away from me in a mall parking lot and almost got hit by a car. Scared me. The “hit” was nothing more then a love tap on the back of her diaper. I was a new father so I thought the swat she’d understand more then an explanation of what she did wrong.

If your child hits you, I think you either let things escalate too far over the years, or maybe the problem is you. You’re hurting and/or frustrating your child. Family therapy would be the only way to fix that damage.

since when did children have more ‘respect’ then adults? i think thats the real problem <to sensitive> to good parenting , has also affected the education system in the U.S. not sure how is in other parts of the world but is getting ridiculous now where giving kids more power then the adult. * note there is some extreme situations where i think restraint is needed, but often is not the case

@SirBailey When that happened to me I was so upset, my son cried like I had hit him. I was crying and saying “Oh baby, are you OK?” and hugging him, and crying.

Glad I never had kids. Too many people with too many opinions about how to raise them. I’ll stick with Hissers. You can’t spank them, as it kills them and leaves a nasty, sticky mess of bug guts in the palm of your hand.

@evelyns_pet_zebra; but they can’t support you in your dotage :)

@ubersiren
Yes, I definitely recall a shaming voice in my head from my mother more than I do the sting on my ass from my father.
Not that I don’t love her to death, crazy bit.. I mean dear old Mom.:)

Jayne, most kids don’t support their parents in their dotage anyway, they just shove them in the nearest nursing home and forget about them.

@evelyns_pet_zebra If only that were true, I would invest heavily in nursing homes. Unfortunately, only a small minority of ‘kids’ do that.

I say never hit a kid because like many above me said that it only teaches them to not be seen when doing something wrong…

Yeah if me or my brothers did something wrong my dad would get the belt, and you can be damn sure we never did it again.

Of course there’s a line to be drawn, but a good butt whooping now and then keeps you in check.

There was recently a question regarding what you “owe” your parents when you are an adult. Most answers, as I recall, said there was no debt because they didn’t ask to be born.

So evelyn, I think you got it right and I am with you, although I do give my dogs a swat when they deserve it and so far none of them have ever turned into killer dogs, but I guess it could happen any minute!

@ABoyNamedBoobs03

A good locked-in-the-closet-for-3-days’in now and then would keep them in check too. This isn’t about “keeping them in check.”

No, I do not believe in hitting children. It teaches them nothing. Parents resort to hitting when they fail to be able to teach their children in any other way. If a child hits you? No, they learned it from somewhere (usually in their own home to begin with), so you have to make sure they learn why it’s not okay. And it doesn’t take violence.

@DrasticDreamer I am against hitting children to force them to behave, but I have to disagree with you. They do, indeed, learn a lesson, even if it is not the intended one – When you are angry it is OK to hit.

I have also seen a two year old hit people even though I can guarantee you he was never hit, and did not see anyone else hitting. He figured it out entirely on his own. I simply say “NO! That hurts!”, and hold his hand for a few seconds. Then I distract him by saying where is your ball?

@Ivan it was more or less a figure of speech.

Spanking a child, within reason obviously, teaches them very well what to do and what not to do. Taking away TV time just seems trivial.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03

Again, I bet electrocuting them would also teach them very well what to do and what not to do. The ends don’t justify the means here. Besides, I don’t think that “teaching them what to do and what not to do” is exactly what the goal is.

we’re speaking about two different things, I’m just saying from a disciplinary standpoint. I know beating your kid with a steel pipe would “do the trick” but obviously there’s a line, stop twisting things.

Do you think there are nonviolent methods of “teaching them what to do and what not to do”?

most certainly, I never said there wasn’t, I said there’s nothing wrong with spanking your child if the situation calls for it.

But you said that there are nonviolent methods which achieve the same thing. Aren’t the nonviolent methods preferable to the violent ones?

For generations almost all kids were spanked when they deserved it, not beaten but disciplined with a swat on the bottom. They survived and produced many illustrious people. This method didn’t seem to produce the abusive monsters that many claim will be the result of said swat.

My question is are children today better behaved, more mannerly, more well adjusted due to this new method of raising a kid? It doesn’t appear that way to me, I see more rude, abusive to their parents, ill mannered kids than ever.

I make sad faces at the little darlings who come into my store and it doesn’t seem to have any effect, nor do their parents explaining to a 2 year old they must not touch, they ignore, the parents ignore their ignoring and the kids keep on touching until I tell the kid, then the parents get out of sorts and storm out. I have been told to mind my own business and not to speak to their child in that manner (sternly). I tell them fine but if the kid breaks anything they are buying it, then they storm out for sure.

So I am no expert, but I don’t think it is working as well as the old method.

@rooeytoo For generations there have been killing, war and all manner or anti-social behavior. It will not end until the majority of human kind discovers that there is a better way to teach children to be responsible for their own behavior.

In a perfect world, which is my dream for our future generations, no one would resort to hitting to get their way.

@rooeytoo

Shall we all oppress women and trade slaves too? It worked for them, it should work for us.

@Ivan & @YARNLADY – I think you are going a little overboard, comparing a spanking to war and killing and slavery and anti-social behavior. We are talking about a spanking right???

There are many methods of many things in life that have worked for years and will continue to work, so why change them? Especially if the results produced are not as advantageous as those which were produced by previous means.

When I see children behaving better and proving that this new enlightened method is actually having a beneficial effect, then I may change my opinion, in the meantime, I personally do not have abuse and discipline confused and will continue to applaud parents who insist their children act in a respectful fashion.

@rooeytoo I’m talking about hitting a child to make them behave, many parents choose to lessen the impact by calling a ‘swat’ or ‘spank’ or some other less innocuous term to separate it from an all out beating.

Edit to add: every journey starts with one small step!

@rooeytoo
I think it’s time has come and gone but unfortunately there are many parents who are inconsistent with their methods. Some parents actually do not understand the nature of community/public/private and fail to take into account boundaries and limitations. They don’t use discipline with themselves and so in effect pass this lack of restraint on to their children. Children must be trained. Their nature is to show no restraint, not share, hit, and the like.

@YARNLADY – sort of like saying a person is toasted or 3 sheets to the wind or whatever instead of drunk. Yep all means the same thing and I still feel the same, say hit if you want, too many kids were “hit” on the bottom for a lot of years and still managed to grow up as functioning humans. Couldn’t be all that bad.

And still not the same as war and killing.

@SeventhSense – I am simply basing my feelings on the results that I see. The children I come in contact with who are raised in the new enlightened way are rude, disrespectful and like the kid in the video. When I see different behavior then maybe you can convince me this newer method is preferable. It happens on a daily basis in my business, I get sick of rude and bratty kids. You can always tell how they have been raised by the way they talk to their parents and the way they behave.

@rooeytoo

You are drawing arbitrary lines. I have demonstrated that it isn’t the simple fact that spanking works (assuming, for the sake of argument, that it does) that allows you to support it. A lot of things work, but that’s no reason to support their implementation.

@rooeytoo; you ask to see the well-behaved children raised without hitting? Well, here I am. You will also find many of them on this thread here. And all around you as well. But of course you will never know this, because you don’t go around asking people how they were raised. The only people you will notice are the rare cases of extremely spoiled children who have a lot more wrong with the way they were raised than just not being hit. And of course you have already decided that physical punishment is beneficial, and it is far more intuitive, and it appeals especially at the moment of outrage when you witness a kid’s misbehavior, so when you see a misbehaving kid being reigned in by his parent, you would never come to the conclusion that physical punishment might be the root cause of the kid’s problems. So you will not notice the cases contrary to your opinion, and you will not notice all the cases that prove nothing either way; you will only see the cases that support your decision. This is of course true for any person on any issue; it’s called bias. But it is particularly acute here because of the dynamics of the issue I just outlined. So in this case, ‘just basing your feelings on the results that you see’ is a very poor method indeed. A properly conducted survey is the only real way to resolve the issue, of course, but failing that, I think that theoretical grounds and case studies are, perhaps counterintuitively, the best way to handle it.

I can only say show me results, it seems to me that there is more bullying, that was never an issue when I was a kid. Kids as criminals, committing crimes against older folks, even murder. Gangs of young kids terrorizing the community, poor behavior at school. These and many other problems were not nearly as prevalent as they are now.

What has this new and enlightened method accomplished?

And yes, I am basing my opinion on what I see on a daily basis, in the supermarket, in my store, on the playground, and what goes on these days on tennis courts is appalling. Teachers are not allowed to correct, I tell misbehaving 10 year olds to get out of my store and they defy me, if I try to usher them out the door they tell me I can’t touch them and threaten to call the police.

If it is rare case of kids misbehaving, then why are all of the above on the increase instead of decreasing?

@rooeytoo

Child on child violence—Bad!
Adult on child violence—Good!

You don’t think the collective morality of society has improved over the years?

By the way, your personal experiences regarding certain behaviors becoming more prevalent is irrelevant. Every generation looks toward the next and thinks that it is corrupt/lazy/immoral/etc. Our nostalgia of the past is false and our vision of the present is skewed.

@rooeytoo
You can always tell how they have been raised by the way they talk to their parents and the way they behave
This assumes that those who were given corporal punishment are the ones who are well behaved? That may be a stretch. There are many greater societal issues at work here as well. The negative influences on children today are staggering.

@rooeytoo; Can you give us some real evidence that all of the above are increasing, and if so, can you offer any convincing evidence that this is not due to the innumerable other changes in society that have an effect on juvenile delinquency? Or is this also just based on personal observation? Also, kids telling you not to touch them is a perfectly valid use of their legal rights, and is only a sign of misbehavior if you have already decided that adults have the right to physically punish kids. Would you be misbehaving if you threatened to call the cops when I try to push you out of my store? No. The same holds true for kids. The right and the desire for personal space is common to everyone. Yes, they are assholes for acting up in your store, but there is no reason to think that they are doing so because their daddy doesn’t whoop em.

@rooeytoo, if I am not mistaken, @Jayne just graduated from high school, that would make him between 17 and 18 years old. Sorry if I’m off on the age Jayne. Read some of his posts and you will understand that when he says “here I am” he is showing you living breathing proof that a kid can be raised to be a healthy happy person without being hit.

As a mom I decided a couple of years ago to ask parents who had really great teenagers or young adults what they thought they did right. Yes, I did ask Jayne’s father that question. Not a single one of them said anything about hitting their child. To a person they pointed out that they believed one of the biggest things they did right was pay attention to their kids.

@SuperMouse; just graduated; I’m 18 :)

@Jayne thanks! I got there in time to fix my answer before the ability to edit went away!

I am outnumbered, I give up. And Jayne, no wonder you are such an expert, I was too when I was 18! Next time some kid comes into my store and ruins a 1500 watercolor painting with a water gun, how bout you come take care of the situation for me, cuz I willingly admit, I don’t know how to handle the little darlings!

Naw, you’ve got it right. Hitting them will definitely fix the painting.

@rooeytoo lol4rl! Personally, I’m all about logical consequences.

In the case of the $1,500 watercolor being ruined by a squirt gun, grab the gun from the little fellow and squirt until he could enter a wet t-shirt contest. When his mom comes to complain and retrieve her little angel, soak her then hand her the bill!

Edited to add: @Jayne, I’m choosing to go with gracious! :o)

That was either gracious or ad hominem; I’m not sure which.

Well Jayne’s parents apparently did an outstanding job. I am constantly impressed by his acumen and insights.
@Jayne, just slip the 100. in my mailbox

@SeventhSense; sure thing. That was 100 old Turkish lira, right?

oooohh…ummm..uhh…well I guess the flyers won’t be going out…

@Ivan – bet you are around 18 too! and thank you for the sensible suggestion, that is what I said in the first place, slug the little toads. By the way your politeness is very admirable, I meant to thank you for telling me I am irrelevant. Apparently you believe in civility towards children but not adults?

Seriously, since jayne says I am violating their human rights by ushering them from my store, what do you suggest I do? Call the police? Call their parents, lot of good that would do. Made sad faces at them so they know they are doing wrong?

No, calling the police or their parents would only teach them proper behavior in a store and give them an incentive to respect authority. Just punch them in the face.

I love how a little swat on the behind turns into a punch in the face ~

@rooeytoo I’m with you on this one.

I am asking for a genuine response. and you are just being smart. If I called the police, there is no response, they would say they have more important things to do, that is a fact. Parents are working during day so no help at the moment. And do you really think kids are so stupid that they don’t know how to behave and simply choose not to.

I answered the question according to my beliefs. Sometimes a smack is in order in my mind. You can’t seem to accept that I am allowed to feel that way, but I can and do.
I do not have to believe what you believe and you are allowed to believe whatever you choose without me telling me you are irrelevant. So be as rude as you wish, I have stated my opinion and your rudeness will not change it.

@jonsblond – I know we went from a swat on the bottom to war and slavery. It was a hell of a trip I tell you!!!

@rooeytoo I suspect the police would be happy to respond to a shop owner that assaulted a child. You might be able to simply deny entrance to them by posting a sign “You reserve the right to refuse service to anyone” and then simply order them out of your store. I’m wondering how a child manages to bring a loaded water pistol into a store in the first place. Maybe a policy of making customers leave their packages and such at the entrance would help.

@YARNLADY – sorry but unless I posted an armed guard at the door, it would be difficult to prevent entry and kids manage to smuggle automatic rifles into schools, do you really think I could detect a water pistol in a pocket.

The police might make it to my shop if I assaulted a kid (if you consider grasping an elbow and guiding to the door an assault, and in this day and age, it probably is) but would never make it if I called them to remove an unruly kid. Do you really think kids heed the signs, how many convenience stores have those signs and how many kids do you see in the stores. And the very fact that they need the sign in the first place is significant regarding the behavior of these kids.

Thanks but no workable solutions so far. I still think the little darlings need some discipline at home and the sad faces don’t appear to be working.

@rooeytoo When sad faces don’t work, it’s because it’s not being done properly. (and maybe ‘mad’ face would be a better description). Also, as part of an overall method, it has to be used consistently from a very early age. The behavior you are describing is not a simple lack of training, hitting or otherwise, it borders on criminal neglect.

I was a foster care provider for many years, and I got children because their parents were being taken to jail, so you know they were not the best trained kids. I never, ever found it necessary to hit any of them to make them mind.

yeah how a spanking turned into what you guys are likening it to is pretty beyond me at this point.
you guys act like this is some travesty against mankind, my brother and I, as well as several others that I know were spanked when we we young, none of us turned out be be detriments to society, in fact I’ve come to think that at least my siblings and I turned out quite respectful and well mannered when manners are required. Ivan I respect you and your posts for the most part, and I’m aware of what you’re trying to get at, but I think you’re going a little overboard with how detrimental or how terrible the act of spanking a child when they misbehave. I think we must agree to disagree.

@YARNLADY – You are truly a legend in your own mind!

I think it’s hilarious that the majority of anti-spankers out there don’t have any children of their own.

It would also be interesting to know if these same folks are pro-life or pro-choice.

Incidentally, for those saying that Ivan was out of line in bringing up slavery and punching, I would like to point out two things. Firstly, he made it very clear that he was not equating these things with physical discipline, and instead was just illustrating the point that the ends do not always justify the means. Secondly, rooeytoo did the exact same thing: “it seems to me that there is more bullying, that was never an issue when I was a kid. Kids as criminals, committing crimes against older folks, even murder. Gangs of young kids terrorizing the community, poor behavior at school. These and many other problems were not nearly as prevalent as they are now.” Saying that these things can be traced back to the absense of physical punishment is overdramatic to say the least.

Also, I don’t think anyone here disagrees that you have the right to take a kid by the arm and escort him out of your store. This discussion, you will note, is about striking children, and if you insert the idea of ushering kids out of your store, as an example of phere corporal punishment is needed, into an argument that is actively focusing on physical punishment and disciplinary violence it is obvious that people are going to read it as more aggressive than it actually is. You can’t come back after you do that and accuse them blowing it out of proportion.

@Blondesjon, parent/non-spanker here. But the Blondjon family and I have been through this and have agreed to disagree.

This non-spanker can tell you with 100% certainty that none of my children would smuggle a water gun into a store and squirt a painting. How can I say that? First, they would be better supervised then to be running amok at the mall, and second they have been taught to respect other people’s things.

@rooeytoo, I see absolutely nothing wrong with grabbing the kid with the water-gun by the elbow and escorting him out of your store. If I saw you doing that to my kid I would stand back and let you finish, the lesson would be one he would not soon forget.

I would grab my own child by the elbow and escort him out of a place where he had wreaked havoc. I would grab him, drag his ass out of there, sit him down and make him figure out how he is going to work off the cost of the painting he had just ruined. I would then drag his ass back into the store to discuss the situation with rooey until he and Junior have worked out a workable resolution. Honestly, it would probably take every bit of strength I had to keep from backhanding the little angel.

Thanks Jayne

Let me just clear this up. Even if it were conclusively proven that spanking children turns them all into Mother Theresa and not spanking children turns them all into gang members, I would still be against spanking. As I continually have said (and Jayne again reminded you), this isn’t about whether spanking works or not. Not for me, at least.

@rooeytoo

I said that your personal experiences were irrelevant. I never said that you, yourself, were irrelevant.

I never quite understood the “I’m free to believe whatever I want” argument. Of course you do. Simply having a discussion is not an insinuation that you should not be able to believe whatever you wish. You can believe that hitting children is OK all you want, actually hitting the children is a different story.

@Blondesjon

I don’t get it. Having children reverts your thought process by a few decades? Again, you are only giving me incentive to never have children.

@Ivan . . .You can talk about how to raise kids until you are blue in the face. Until you have some, it’s only empty rhetoric.I was going to be the coolest fucking dad the world had ever seen before I had kids. Guess what? I haven’t received my award yet, but I have three children that have turned out pretty good. That’s good enough for me.

I have no problem debating this with someone who has walked the walk, like SuperMouse or even YARNLADY but to tell folks how to raise their kids when you have none of your own is like me telling you there are alternate ways to do differentials and predict the behavior of quantum particles.

I can say all I want but I’d just be talking out of my ass.

@SuperMouse. . .i did also use the word majority so as not to make an all encompassing, blanket statement. by the way, when are you going to recycle Stuart Little as your avatar? he’s my favorite.

@Blondesjon For the most part, people with experience with children are the best guides, but it is possible for non-parents to develop the philosophy that hitting is not the best way to achieve the goal of well behaved kids.

@YARNLADY . . .Does this hold true for non-parents that do believe in hitting?

@Blondesjon you caught that, eh?

@YARNLADY . . .i do it to myself all the time. :)

@Blondesjon; Since we are talking about the development of a child’s mind here, the best source is not an observer, even one so intimate as a parent, but the child himself; I have been a child far more recently than you. I don’t think being a parent gives you any particular authority here; if the question had been, “is it natural for a parent to strike their child”, then yes, your experience a a parent would make you much more able to answer the question, because it asks for the parent’s perspective, but here the child’s perspective is more pertinent. After all, you cannot really know how your children would have grown up if you had not struck them, but I know very well what would have happened to me if my parents had used corporal punishment on me.
Please don’t take offense at this; I obviously don’t know the relationship between you and your children, so if I have made unjustified assumptions here, please set me straight. All I know is that from what I have seen of parenting, it is a complex and haphazard affair where all you can do is make the best choices you can without ever knowing how things would have turned out if you chose differently.

@Jayne . . .A parent is one of the major factors in the development of a child’s mind. From the nutrition we provide them to the environment we raise them in, for at least the first two or three years of a child’s life there is no more crucial input than that of a parent.

If I asked a child, who has been refused ice cream as a punishment for not cleaning their room, if they should still get the ice cream, 9 out of 10 of them will say yes.

and aren’t you saying you would know how you would have turned out from the biased perspective of a grown child who was never spanked? how can you know how you would have turned out if it never happened to you?

The funny part is that in 20 or 30 years the Jaynes and Ivans will be complaining about the kids running riot and why doesn’t someone straighten them out. And the kids will be telling these know nothings from a previous age how irrelevant their thoughts are.

I do think it is a very interesting theory that since children know what is in their own minds, they then know best how to raise themselves. And being a parent gives you no authority, so when the kid misbehaves in school who do you call, ghostbusters?
And you are disagreeing with Ivan now because he says I should call the parents of the destructive kids, but why bother if they have no authority, why don’t these kids just raise themselves better.

This whole thing is getting silly now. And yes Jayne, I know a little latin too and actually can do a little googling, it was ad hominem because most 18 years olds do think they have all the answers, it is only when you get older that you realize you often don’t even know what questions to ask.

The bottom line as far as I’m concerned is that there are a lot more kids getting into and causing a lot more trouble. If it does not have something to do with the advent of the more permissive form of parenting and the timing is merely coincidental, then what is the reason? And it is no use asking me to quote my source because all you have to do is look at a newspaper, school shootings, vandalism, etc. etc. etc.

Okay, I’ve been following this for a while now and probably don’t want to enter the debate, as I feel I’d be talking out of my ass, being a non-parent and all.

But can we get one thing straight? There’s a major difference between punching a child in the gut for not doing their homework, and giving a slap on the wrist for running into traffic, then hugging them for dear life.

I completely understand both sides of the conversation: on one hand, constantly hitting your child because you’re too lazy to speak and/or show affection to them gives them the wrong impression of how a civilized society work. On the other, I’m under the assumption that using physical force is a practical – and ethical – “last resort”, without any fear of messing up a child’s perspective on the world.

As I said, as long as we realize that hitting =/= knocking a child out, I think we can come up with some more… informed answers.

However,

As I said up top, I was 16 years old when I started to sell weed and do a bit of running here and there, thinking I was a badass and invincible. When my mother found out, she beat my ass. Had she not, I would probably be in prison right now (as everyone I knew from that clique is, now).

Can someone tell me why I am not stabbing people, robbing stores and punching my significant other, because my mother used physical force on me?

Better yet, would you say that my mother was wrong?

@Blondesjon

OK then. You are hereby never allowed to make any commentary about a war you’re not fighting in, a government you’re not elected to, or a football team you don’t play for.

@rooeytoo

“in 20 or 30 years the Jaynes and Ivans will be complaining about the kids running riot and why doesn’t someone straighten them out. And the kids will be telling these know nothings from a previous age how irrelevant their thoughts are.”

Yes, because this is what every single generation does. That doesn’t make them correct.

@Grisaille

“Had she not, I would probably be in prison right now”

Had she been a better parent from the outset, you would have never gotten into drugs in the first place.

Again, the ends do not justify the means. Just because hitting a child in a certain situation might have a beneficial outcome, that doesn’t mean that a nonviolent solution wouldn’t have had an equally beneficial outcome.

@Ivan . . .DEAL!!!

See, I knew we’d reach some middle ground that we could agree on.

you all are witnessing this deal right?

Or, we could both be good citizens and express our opinions on issues.

@Ivan I’d like to know why you are under the false assumption she was a bad mother, and how you’ve arrived at that conclusion from my factually devoid and limited statement.

* shrugs *

Hey, whatever.

@Blondesjon i’m a witness
@Ivan the deal is already made….

@Ivan . . .Nah. I’d prefer to see you put money where your mouth is. I can hold up my end of the bargain.

Can you?

@Grisaille

I never said she was a bad mother.

@Blondesjon

I wouldn’t torture you so.

@Grisaille a child who has been raised properly in the first place rarely does the things you describe, and does not need to be beaten.

@rooeytoo; “no particular authority here” meant no more right than I to debate the topic, not no more authority over your children. Which would probably have been obvious if you hadn’t chosen to read everything I write as the blithering of a little kid. I know that Blondesjon is eminently more qualified than I to raise his own children, I was merely saying (rather clumsily, because I was in a hurry) that he is not that much more qualified than I am to discuss the effects of violence on children in general. And I am perfectly well aware that I do not know all the answers; I just happen to object to people dismissing me as just an arrogant kid who is not worth debating, as opposed to actually addressing my arguments. If my arguments are so stupid, ignorant, and immature, it shouldn’t be too damn hard to shoot them down, should it?

And to return slightly to the actual discussion, I don’t think anyone arguing against corporal punishment is talking about a light swat on the rear or a slap on the wrist. We are talking about taking a belt to your kid’s behind. Because, you know, that actually hurts, and none of my arguments, at least, would makes sense if it didn’t. Instead of saying we are blowing things out of proportion and lowering the standards of what qualifies as corporal punishment so you can make it sound nice and benign, try addressing it on a level where there might actually be a reasonable debate.

@Ivan That’s a fair statement. Just understand that:

”Had she been a better parent from the outset…”

…means that she was less-than-the-optimal parent, in your opinion. I understand that worse does not equal bad, but my mind automatically goes there.

@YARNLADY I’m going to disagree with you there. I think we can all assume that environment plays as large a part of development as parental guidence, correct? In many cases, it doesn’t matter how loving your parent is; how model their techniques are. If surrounded by poverty, criminal activity, gangs, drugs and violence, I’m going to say that a child is just as likely to get involved with these things (even if just experimenting) as a child from a broken home, as I’ve seen it happen. As an invincible 16 year old, it wasn’t a case of whether I felt the social tug or need to sell drugs – that is, that I felt the need to do such things in order to be accepted. I did it because it was there, and I felt rebellious (as my mother instilled in me that these things are bad) doing so. Does that make her a bad parent because, of my own volition, I choose to sell drugs and do dangerous runs? No, it was my own stupidity as a 16 year old that thought he knew the world around him, disregarding all life lessons and wisdom my mother taught and offered me.

On a more extreme and far more opinionated note, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that children with a model household are more brazen and likely to experiment with criminal activity than one from a broken home if surrounded by it, as they feel different. But again, that’s just my own personal experience and opinion talking. (not to mention way off topic)

@Jayne – “Somehow discipline has come to mean the same thing as abuse.
Abuse is not a good thing for anyone child or adult.
A swat on the bottom when they are 2 or 3 is not abuse and means you won’t have one the age of the kid on the film clip acting the way he did. He will have learned that is not the way to behave towards authority figures.
It there is a physical reason for the behavior, that must be addressed.”

That is a copy and paste of the first thing I said. So how you turned that comment of mine into “I don’t think anyone arguing against corporal punishment is talking about a light swat on the rear or a slap on the wrist. We are talking about taking a belt to your kid’s behind.” Are we all in the same conversation or didn’t you read my comments?

Have you noticed that apparently verbal or emotional abuse is perfectly acceptable. Ivan has said my thoughts were irrelevant, I am my thoughts so I guess that means I am irrelevant even if he wants to play semantics and say that is not correct. I reiterate, I am what my thoughts and opinions are.

I also think if you don’t want to be dismissed as an 18 year old with all the answers, then don’t speak in absolutes, don’t lecture others as you did to me in several instances above and most importantly, don’t act like one. There are few things in this world that can be answered absolutely by anyone, be they 18 or 38 or 108.

@Grisaille

You were justified in perceiving my comment that way and I apologize for being so blunt. No parent is perfect.

@rooeytoo

I didn’t say your thoughts were irrelevant; I said that your personal experiences were irrelevant to this discussion. Stop putting words in my mouth in an attempt to malign my argument. Address the issues at hand, not the people making them or the nature by which they were made.

@Ivan . . .i thought we made a deal?

@Blondesjon

Please don’t make me patronize you by explaining that my comment was an attempt to demonstrate the invalidity of the “You have to have experienced it to be able to have an intelligent opinion on it” argument.

@rooeytoo; Me lecturing you is no worse than you being condescending to me. How about we both agree that we have been rather more rude than necessary here. And I do admit that I rather skipped over the fact that you were talking about rather more mild punishment than I. My apologies; it was entirely my fault. Also, I never intended for people to read my arguments as absolutes. If I am not presenting raw information, then by definition it is my opinion, and it would be very redundant for me to write “I think” or “imho” or “my view is” all the time. That is what an opinion in, and also by definition, I think my opinion is correct, otherwise it wouldn’t be my opinion. But that doesn’t mean that I am unwilling to accept that I am wrong, if someone presents a good argument. You, clearly, also think that you are right, and you, presumably, are also willing to be convinced otherwise. I just felt no need to emphasize that fact by repeating that this is just my opinion. I assumed people could take that as read. It’s a matter of personal style. And finally, I humbly submit that I have been behaving no more immaturely on this thread than you, although the behavior of neither of us has been exemplary.

@Blondesjon . . .Please don’t make me call you out as a man who backs down from his word. It kind of invalidates all of these things you feel so strongly about.

@Blondesjon

Refusing to discuss the issues already invalidates all of those things.
Assuming you were trying to talk to yourself.

You’re funny, thank you for telling me I have been immature, but thankfully no more so than you. I guess that is a positive thing?

I have reread what I have written, I see nothing immature or condescending except saying that 18 year olds have a lot of answers to a lot of questions. I had a lot when I was 18 also, now at my age, I am saddened daily because I don’t have an answer to the problems I see all around me, many having to do with helpless kids, not just the obnoxious ones. And I might add, I really don’t see that as condescending, again an opinion based on my experience with 18 year olds, including myself not directed at you exclusively so nothing personal unless you choose to take it that way.

I think people react when it is a subject that is close to their hearts or has personal application. I was occasionally spanked and suffered no ill effects so I have no problem with it. For me verbal and emotional abuse has taken a much greater toll and I react when people belittle or minimalize my opinion simply because it is different from their own. And truly that is all that has been expressed here, no cold hard facts, just observations from assorted folks.

@Ivan . . .Shhh…I’m discussing this with someone that doesn’t make empty promises.

@Blondesjon

sigh

I think you’ll find no promise in my words.

Your continual attempt to prevent people from discussing issues still confuses me.

@Ivan . . .OK then. You are hereby never allowed to make any commentary about a war you’re not fighting in, a government you’re not elected to, or a football team you don’t play for.

I didn’t say ^^ that.

I did say that a non parent doesn’t have a legitimate say in how to raise a child.

* headdesk *

Can’t we all agree that no one has the correct answer, and their are many ways to raise, intelligent, civilized, and eloquent children?

This was posed as a hypothetical question, and we’re kinda drowning in personal examples, elitism and false pretenses at the moment. Just let the conversation die, I say.

@Grisaille . . .hell no. then i’d have to go spend time with my kids.

@Blondesjon

“I did say that a non parent doesn’t have a legitimate say in how to raise a child.”

And that’s not a good argument. You think that no one should have any sense whatsoever of how to raise a child until they actually have one? That seems kind of irresponsible.

“Aw shit, I just had a kid. I don’t even know how to raise it. I guess I’ll just wing it and figure it out along the way.”

Regardless, my argument has less to do with raising children and more do to with my position on hitting people.

@Jayne I’m in the same age range as you, I’m barely in my 20s. My Father and Mother spanked me when I did something wrong as a child, I turned out perfectly fine. As a matter of fact I feel as though they did a damn good job with my brothers and myself. For every example there’s an opposite my friend. that’s the lesson from all of this. Hitting works with some parents/children, while it doesn’t for others. there’s no clear cut right and wrong in it guys.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03

You are associating effectiveness with morality again.

@Ivan . . .If you would care to take an informal poll among parents (pro-spanking and anti-spankiing) I believe that the general consensus would be that until you actually have children you are kind of talking out of your ass.

You can tell me all about what it would be like to be on the moon.

Until you’ve actully been there, though, you can’t tell me what it is like.

I don’t necessarily care if a lot of people believe something. You don’t get to become an atheist by caring about whether people agree with you.

Of course I can’t tell you what it’s like. Never said I could. I also can’t tell you what it’s like to be a professional baseball player. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand the game of baseball. That also doesn’t mean I can’t criticize A-Rod when he commits an error.

So you understand what it means to be a parent?

I hate to jump in between Ivan and Blondesjon here, but I gotta say that unless and until one becomes a parent there is really now way to understand what it is really like.

I have a sister who is nine years younger than me, she was only 2 when our mother died. I became a “mini-mother” to her. I loved her like you couldn’t imagine – still do as a matter of fact – my bond with her is still closer than with pretty much anyone in the world. When she was six she was playing with some dolls and someone asked “are you their mother?” She answered “no, I’m their 15 year-old sister.” I came about as close to being a parent without actually being one as is possible. But when it came down to it, my dad was the only one in charge. I could think things and say I wanted to do things a certain way, but since I wasn’t the actual parent I just didn’t get it. It wasn’t until I had my own kids and it was all on me – 100% on me – that I really started to understand what it is to be a parent.

@Blondesjon

Nope, but I understand how wrong it is to hit people.

@Ivan . . .You have opened my eyes with your logic. I now realize that math and science are inherently evil, regardless of how they are used.

They have been responsible for as many deaths as Chritianity and bad parenting combined.

My “Um, actually…” instinct just exploded.

I was never the one who was discussing the effectiveness of hitting a child. I was arguing that it’s simply wrong to hit people. You were arguing that I couldn’t know whether or not hitting a child was wrong because I’ve never been a parent.

Hitting people = Hurting people.

Hurting people = Wrong (100% no room for argument, WRONG)

If I have followed this thread right, this is your logic.

I had an epiphany, by following your logic, that Science hurts people in the same way that spanking parents do.

Like I said, thank you for knocking the scales from my eyes.

@Blondesjon

Science is not some sort of institution or organization. It can be used for good or bad. Your attempts to permanently ally me with some sort of monolithic being called “science” and then attempting to use my logic to malign this “science” and therefore make me backtrack is pretty transparent.

@Ivan . . .Science is the religion of mathematics.

Spare the numerator spoil the denominator.

@Blondesjon

You’re not a scientist, are you?
Hey, this is fun!

@Ivan . . .I am now.

I have used numbers in my life and am aware that tungsten is also known as W. I know that Science killed 150,000 at Hiroshima and 75,000 at Nagasaki.

I am glad that we refrained from hitting them.

Yes, “Science” did that. Proper noun, capitalized “Science.” Also, I blindly accept everything that “Science” does.

I know! Thank you for showing me how liberating that can be!

Now if I could only figure out a way to spank my kids Scientifically…

Hitting people is usually pretty scientific.

Please allow me to add – pain is a great teacher, nature shows us that. My two year old grandson opened a door yesterday on his toes. I have told him time after time to stand back when he opened the door, but this time, he opened it without me near by and it really hurt him.

How is that different from me hitting him when he opened the door wrong? I maintain that it is worlds upon worlds different. If you can’t see the difference, there is no way we can ever come to a meeting of the minds here.

I have been hit many times as a kid…not in an abusive way. It was a disciplinary method employed by my wacky parents. I honestly think it’s ok to spank a kid…as a last resort for punishment when all other approaches have been exhausted. It’s not any huge deal in my eyes either way, as long as the parent isn’t taking any problems out on the kid, etc