Does the question, "Is God real?", have a specific, definitive, objective answer?
Asked by
Ivan (
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July 9th, 2009
In other words, is the answer either a definitive “yes”, or a definitive “no”? Or is there some nebulous in-between answer. Or is the question somehow unanswerable? Or is the answer unknowable? Is the answer objectively true, or does it change from person to person?
Your thoughts, please.
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138 Answers
Yes, but only if you can define “God” (EDIT: or a god or whatever you want to call it; the word is insignificant) in a rigorous sense. Which I have never seen anyone do in a meaningful way. So, until someone changes this impasse, my answer remains, there exists no entity that cannot be part of an empirical universe and must therefore be called a god.
@Jayne
Perhaps I should have said “a god”. I personally don’t think that would change the meaning of the question much, though.
Maybe?
@Ivan I know for certain you are a troll. ;)
No, I don’t think there is a definite answer… To some people, god is very, very real. To others, it’s a complete figment of other people’s imagination.
Even when I was a believer rather than a questioner, I saw god as my belief, not a hard and fast fact.
@Likeradar
I don’t doubt any of that. But at the end of the day, someone is correct and someone is incorrect, right?
If you post this question to an agnostic, an atheist, and a christian, chances are you aren’t going to get a definitive “yes” or a definitive “no” so I think it might be safe to assume that the question “Is God Real” does not have a specific, definitive, and objective answer. Individual people are going to relate their own perceptions and beliefs so in essence, to them anyway, the question is answerable. Is it unknowable? I have no idea really because there are so many unknows about the subject of God anway. Does it change from person to person? Absolutely it does. Past discussions about religion here on Fluther directly reflects this.
Although I find the topics of Theology and religion to be fascinating for lots of different reasons, I’ve also recognized that they can be topics that turn out to be contentious due to so many different thoughts, attitudes, and opinions about them.
@Ivan I suppose… but there’s no way of knowing til you’re dead. Even then, what if god is real but doesn’t introduce him or her self to the non-believers?
I’m sticking with there’s no definitive answer. :)
Well, we can get into the discussion about whether or not we can determine God’s existence if you wish, but even if there is absolutely no possible way to find out whether He’s real or not, He’s still either real or fake. He either exists or he doesn’t, regardless of whether we can figure that out or not.
@Bluefreedom
I’m not asking whether we can determine what the answer is, I’m asking whether or not the answer exists.
I’ve heard many people say that God definitely exists while life on other planets definitely does not exist.
Both beliefs have as much evidence supporting them yet are completely different conclusions.
@Ivan I think they do but we’re not there yet.
I think the answer is there, but we will most likely never be able to reach it.
the problem is you can not prove a god doesn’t exist, only that it does exist. So it’s not so much the question that’s flawed but the overall subject.
No one’s talking about whether the answer can be proved, we’re talking about whether it exists.
Yes, there is a definitive answer. My question is, if there is a “god” why did “he” make “his” existence such an enigma to us? Perhaps “he” is merely a troll?
I don’t see how there could be. Some people are convinced the answer is yes, and every one of them has their own reason for it, and other are just as convinced that it doesn’t make any sense.
@YARNLADY
But ultimately, there is a correct answer, isn’t there?
Ultimately, of course there is a correct answer. I happen to believe the answer is a definitive yes. I think there are people who would think that all of your suggested answers are true though.
@Ivan. As paradoxically as this might sound, it could be there is a correct answer but only God knows what it is. It’s going to take me some time to get my brain wrapped around that concept.
Of course there is. The hard part is understanding which one.
Yes, there is a definitive answer.
I don’t feel we (humans) will ever know what that answer is until we die (and even then…).
Ultimately, it shouldn’t matter if there is a definitive answer or not. You can never know, only believe.
I say focus on the journey. Worry about the destination when (if) you get there.
God and gods definitely exist. They are concepts shared of billions of people that help them explaining natural order . I see no reason, however, to expect there is anything real beyond those concepts.
In my life so far, I have not yet heard even 1 single valid objective reason to believe in the true existence of a god. The mere doubt that this question raises is frustrating.
The fact that the non-existence of a god cannot be proven does not make His (his/Her/her) existence any more plausible. No one can proof the pyramids were not built by aliens. That doesn’t make it plausible that ET came from all across the universe to just build pyramids. The same holds true for unicorns. We cannot prove unicorns do not exist. That doesn’t give validity to the claim of their existence.
Yes, the simple answer is that deities of all forms are imagined. They exist as purely imaginary concepts, but are only as real as believers make them with their actions. As a physical, tangible being, there is no such thing.
It’s like trying to define the concept of ‘nothing’.
An answer free of paradox does exist. There just aren’t any human minds capable of understanding it yet.
No. The problem with God is not non-existence. The problem is that the concept is meaningless. What difference does it make if God exists? Let us define God as the creator of the Universe, infinitely powerful and infinitely good and that this is the best of all worlds. So what does this tell us? Absolutely nothing. What specifically does God do with all that power? What are the standards of goodness that we could use to measure God’s performance, assuming we could figure out what God does? And how can anyone possibly figure out how good our world is compared to any other possible world without knowing what the standards are. All religion is at best a bunch of sweet nothings.
No, you can never have such an answer, which is why people still disagree about it (and will continue to do so forever). Belief in God requires a leap of faith, and accepting certain “dogmas”. A “dogma” is a basic rule upon which other (logical) rules are based. Eg a mathematical dogma states that 2 is bigger than 1. If you don’t accept that, then you can’t move forward, you can’t count, you can’t explain why 24+3=27 and not 5. Similarly, there are a couple of things you have to take as granted if you are to even start talking about God.
I personally believe that our limited brain capacity, our extremely short life spans and our geographical isolation and insignificance mean we will never be able to even understand the Universe and everything that’s in it, let alone its Creator (assuming there is one). It is by definition impossible to ever reach that level of consciousness without becoming gods ourselves.
What do you care? Your all balls in atheist. Maybe you should quit searching and just accept.
Yes. A specific, definitive, objective answer. At the end of the day, only applies to you and concerns you alone. Our ego always gets in the way. You have to believe that I am right, and you have to show it in your daily actions. :-)
I sleep well with my specific, definitive, objective answers. And I sleep just as good not caring how you sleep. I do care, but you have to walk the path that best suits you alone.
Maybe the reason there is some difficulty for some in saying yes is because we, as humans having the minds of humans, have to equate “real” with “tangible”. Some have a difficult time with “real” as “INtangible”. Do you notice that?
No. God is defined by each person differently. That is why I asked, “How do you define God?” a week or two ago.
Removed by me, was too deep an answer.
@ChazMaz: This is Fluther. Is there a “too deep” – really?
This is true…
Ok…
God is within me and a part of me. So. I am God.
Then you must also be a gall bladder for the same reasoning?
Given that the matter has been debated by some of the most renowned theorists and scholars of the human species (alongside every other person with a mind to question and a fist to shake) for a considerable period of time without any clear resolution I feel inclined to answer no.
Some are gall bladders, some are feet, some are lungs.
All together it makes a body.
Again, I am not asking whether we will ever attain the answer, I’m asking whether the answer exists.
@Ivan: Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think your question has been answered by many above.
Yes the answer exists. Anything beyond that is up for debate.
@Ivan
How could the answer not exist? What does that even mean?
@DominicX
I feel the same way, but countless people have claimed that the answer does not in fact exist.
@Ivan and @DominicX: Awright, so we’re agreeing here. ::group hug::
wait, does that hug actually exist?
@ChazMaz
If God exists within you, how does it figure that U R God?
Water exists within a bucket. By no means does the bucket become water by default.
Yes true, no matter what the vessel is it is still water. And it will always be water.
Even after it leaves the bucket. That is why it is not just a bucket, but a bucket of water.
Every question has an answer, it’s just a matter of how long it will take to find it.
@J0E Not all of them do, only questions that make sense. “What is the colour of jealousy?” doesn’t have an answer.
@Thammuz. . .Who determines which questions make “sense” and which questions don’t?
whatever the answer to question to whether this has an objective answer, some people will believe in God and others will not, regardless of anything.
@Thammuz
Making sense of a question is completely subjective…
If envy is green, then “what is the colour of jealousy?”
A perfectly legitimate question for the poet to consider.
@Ivan “Again, I am not asking whether we will ever attain the answer, I’m asking whether the answer exists.”
The simple (and admittedly most boring) answer of all. No member of our species knows. If we cannot attain an answer then there is no conclusive way in which to know it exists. Yes, we would like to believe there is an answer because that’s how our minds work, that’s how we comprehend the world around us, but we as a species know far too little to accurately claim that we have a monopoly of knowledge over the principles of the universe.
@Nially_Bob
Something either exists or it doesn’t, right?
@Ivan Indeed, something either exists or it doesn’t but how do we know which is the case here if we are incapable of finding out?
@Nially_Bob
That’s not what I’m asking. You have already answered my question.
@Ivan Upon reading your last comment I re-read your question and paid greater notice to the term “objective”. My answer is no.
@Nially_Bob
But you just said that something either exists or it doesn’t.
There are three types of answers so far:
1 people that say that this question can be answered & answer is yes
2 people that say that this question can be answered & answer is no
3 people that say that this question cannot be answered, because we will not be able to find out the answer. In essence their answer equals “maybe”.
So in short: all reactions so far indicate there is an answer. There seems to be no objective way to discern between options 1 and 2, so they basically fall back to maybe as well. From reading this thread therefore, I need to conclude the definite answer is “maybe”.
(Personally, I would have that maybe extremely slanted towards “no”, though.)
@Ivan Hmmmm, you’re correct and I will change my answer to ‘yes’ accordingly though I do so with some hesitance.
I hope you don’t mind my discussing this with you at a later time having given it more consideration.
@whitenoise
4 The question can be answered but we do not know what the answer is yet.
@Ivan That again equates to “maybe”. At least for now.
If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around to hear it, is this question still irrelevant?
I cannot stress enough that this question has nothing to do with what the answer actually is or whether we currently have the means of finding the answer. This question merely asked whether the question has an answer.
By sticking to that definition, the answer is clear. One should realize a question has an answer as soon as a answer is given. That answer may or may not be correct, but as you stated, you don’t care about that.
So your question definitely has a definite answer, already: yes. The question whether God is real or not will be answered and at one moment no other answer will follow. That will be the definite answer. That last answer may then proof or not proof to be definitely wrong or wright.
@whitenoise
As I said in my comments, I am asking whether the question, “Is God real?”, has either a yes or no answer.
@Ivan or:
Or is there some nebulous in-between answer. Or is the question somehow unanswerable? Or is the answer unknowable? Is the answer objectively true, or does it change from person to person?
@whitenoise
Sure there is possibility for a nebulous answer. That arises from how the word “real” is defined in this question. The Atheist will limit his acceptable answers by not considering any that could come from an immaterial realm.
@whitenoise
Right. Any of those answers would be a “no” to this question.
None of us can clearly answer whether god is real or not. Is there an answer? I’m not sure we can even begin to answer that question without really discussing what our answer to the question would be. I suppose when we die we will know whether god is real, right? No one on earth can answer whether god is real or not.
I must say I am pleased to see you, Ivan, ignoring the comments on this question that were definitely trying to start an argument by attacking you. Kudos.
@jeanna
I’m not even sure we will know when we die. Who knows, maybe god is off in some other universe and doesn’t care about our deaths.
Perhaps. I don’t ever think about it. The belief /lack of belief doesn’t change the way I live.
I don’t know if most questions have a definitive yes/no answer; there is so much left for interpretation.
Our interpretation of objective reality does not change it though, doe sit?
doe, a deer, a female deer…
Well, I don’t know. Perhaps it could. Our interpretation of objective reality is constantly changing, right? I could ask you today if you think god is real and your answer may be no, but if I ask you in 10 years your answer very well might change. I imagine we could apply that rule to just about any question. So then, how is any answer definitive? Is saying the sky is blue a definitive answer?
hehe Oh how I have missed the interaction between you, Joe and Ken.
I’ll take this one Ivan, It isn’t about what the answer is, it’s about if there is an answer. Wether the answer may change is irrelevant.
@jeanna
Regardless of whether I believe in God or not, he either exists or he doesn’t. I’m either right or I’m wrong.
@J0E Right, which I spoke of with my first comment on this question. The question asked about definitive answers, in which I disagree that there is a clear yes/no answer that anyone on earth can determine regarding god being real.
@Ivan This is true, but that would mean there is a way to actually discover whether you’re right or wrong about god.
“Regardless of whether I believe in God or not, he either exists or he doesn’t. I’m either right or I’m wrong.”
If your concept of God is very narrow minded, you are right. No disrespect intended.
Bottom line, when we finally have the answer. We have found God.
@jeanna
Why does it mean that? God could exist and we may never be able to figure that out.
@ChazMaz
I am talking about a specific God in particular. You can substitute “God” for any other deity you wish.
So am I. And it makes no difference.
@Ivan How else can an answer be an answer? Eventually we have to discover whether we’re right or wrong, whether our answer was correct.
@jeanna
Brainwaves existed long before the invention of the electroencephalogram could ever answer any questions about them. Those who died beforehand did not get the answer, but the answer was still there nonetheless.
A child in India does not have any hope of knowing the answer to what is in my refrigerator. But the answer is still there regardless of what he is capable of knowing.
The reality of things does not need to be discovered in order to accept that indeed there is a true reality of things… albeit one that is hidden from us.
In your example, @RealEyesRealizeRealLies , you mention that the answer was eventually discovered. So, all answeres are eventually discovered by someone, even if it is not the person who originally asked the question…
There is no right or wrong. It is just how we perceive it.
@jeanna
I don’t see what your objection is. Theoretically I could answer a question and then never determine whether or not I was correct. Either way, I still might have been correct, or maybe I was wrong. Still, there is an answer, regardless of whether mine is correct and regardless of whether I attempt to determine whether mine is correct.
@Ivan I never said I objected to anything. I’m just discussing, asking questions, etc. I think we ventured from the original question. The question “Is God Real” is not a regular question to me. There is an answer, sure, but there is a difference between an answer and a definitive answer. I’ll restate what I said before: I don’t know that all questions have a definitive yes/no answer. An answer, perhaps, but this question referred to a clear yes/no answer and my comments have been about that.
All questions have a definitive answer. Usually we come to a compromise. That comes off as definitive.
@jeanna
Not at all. I cannot say that ALL answers are discovered.
I may have misspoken and unintentionally misled you. I don’t mean to say that the answer was there… my mistake. Only the reality was there, making it possible to produce an answer.
Answers are authored, every time. Reality is theorized or observed, questioned, and then answers are constructed. Neither theorizing or observing guarantees the correct answer. Neither one affects the actual reality of the situation either. The reality is what it is, so the ultimate “correct” answers to any questions about it must conform to what the actual reality truly is.
@jeanna
We are not looking for correct answers.
We are looking for the ability to construct correct answers.
The finding of an answer comes from the construction of an answer.
The correct answer without knowing ALL the mechanics involved can still be up for speculation.
@ChazMaz
Finding something and constructing something are two different things.
Ultimately, for any yes or no queston, there is a definitive answer, but the existence of god does not fall in that category, because it depends on a subjective assessment.
Not true, you have to find it before you can construct it.
@YARNLADY
Therein lies the rub. What is “real”... purely materialism, or can the non material be considered as well?
Also, what is “God”. As the 1st commandment states to have no other than the Jewish God.
I say that chocolate donuts can be God for some people. Jack Daniels is a God to others.
@ChazMaz
How do I find a picture frame that hasn’t been constructed yet?
The quest of finding that picture frame will lead to it being found due to it’s construction.
@ChazMaz
You’ve completely lost me, introducing a third element of quest, plus find, plus construct. I think you have the formula reversed.
@YARNLADY I concur entirely. My perspective on this question has been bewildering me for hours but you have phrased it perfectly and consequently have my thanks.
@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I believe the question is referring to any manner of deity
Why does the existence of god depend on a subjective assessment.
There are many different types of minivans, and different people own different minivans. Bbut no matter which particular minivan we are talking about, it either exists or it doesn’t.
Depends on what you consider a MiniVan to be.
No matter what you think or believe in it has to be constructed to become “real”.
When someone says, “I have a question” or “I have an answer”. A processing and accumulation (quest) of information has occurred in the brain. Formulated into coherence (found) and then verbilized (constructed).
@ChazMaz: “Depends on what you consider a MiniVan to be.”
That could be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. I think you are thinking about this way too hard.
@Jayne. . . How dare you belittle this academic discussion. You are just trying to silence an intelligent exchange of differing ideas.
It’s like watchin’ monkeys fling poo, ain’t it?
Aww. Methinks this conversation is way over some people’s heads….
Methinks Jeanna is correct.
@ChazMaz
“Depends on what you consider a MiniVan to be.”
No, it doesn’t. At the end of the day, no matter what you want to consider a god to be, it either exists or it doesn’t.
Not true, and to think about who God is or if exists, does take some hard thinking for some. Free your mind the rest will follow.
I will say it again.
When we finally figure out what make the universe, spin and expand. When we finally have all the answers.
We would at that moment have found God.
It is a shame that people only see God as being a big bearded man with his finger extended.
The answer is simple, but we are still a simple minded society. No different then the Aztecs or the Egyptians.
@ChazMaz: God has its own definition, What you’re talking about is the beginning of the universe, while God is, by its standard definition, a BEING.
A beginning isn’t necessarily a being, God is.
He is the alpha and the omega. The BEGINNING and the end.
“He” being how you wish to see what it really is.
@ChazMaz: The beginning doesn’t necessarily need to be a being. God is by definition a being. You do address it as a “he”, so you are aware of that, now, if you said “it” i would’ve given you the benefit of the doubt.
I said HE in quotes “He” and explained why.
And, God is “most often” conceived of as…
What you consider a being (God) to be is only limited by your limitations, not mine.
@ChazMaz
You’re not understanding what I’m saying. If you want to define god as whatever makes the universe run, fine. But whatever it is, it still either exists or it doesn’t. If someone else wants to define god as a bearded man in the sky, that’s fine too. He still either exists or he doesn’t.
How about a bearded woman in the sky?
“But whatever it is, it still either exists or it doesn’t.”
Since we exists then something does. So whatever it is, it is in existence.
Are you saying I have to put a face on it, draw you a painting? Then stand by that immage, saying that is what it is it?
That is what got us all into trouble to begin with.
@ChazMaz
Then your answer to this question is?
That was complete nonsense.
Bearded woman in the sky, if works for you go for it.
Yes.
Did I get too wordy for ya? :-)
Not in a scientific sense. In this sense the question is unanswerable, therefore the answer is unknowable. If people long for an answer (and both theists and atheists do), it requires faith. Religion, metaphysics, philosophies can offer answers. People can believe in some of the answers or not.
Albert Einstein once said: “Scientists were rated as great heretics by the church, but they were truly religious men because of their faith in the orderliness of the universe.”
If something exists, we can detect it. If we cannot detect it, it does not exist.
@Ivan Who says our technology is advanced enough to detect everything?
@J0E
I never said we could do it currently. We can do it theoretically.
If something exists inside the system we are part of, we have the potential to detect it eventually. If we cannot detect it even theoretically, it does not exist as a part of our system. So once again it all boils down to this: Science has the potential to explain any natural phenomenon, but it can’t explain and will never be able to explain the meta-phenomenon of existence itself.
Unless, of course, the reason for our existence is simply another natural phenomenon, which we have no reason to suspect otherwise.
It could be, but what is the explanation of the meta-meta-phenomenon related to this other higher level (out of our system) natural phenomenon? The point is we can’t know. I’m not saying the explanation must be a divine entity.
Well speaking of divine entities… ah-em (since you brought it up).
If it was ALL caused by a divine entity… then…
That would be perfectly natural… and nothing divine about it at all. I don’t believe in the supernatural. I don’t believe there even can be such a thing. If there really is a God, then it’s perfectly natural for God to exist.
@Ivan
It seems so obvious. I wish theists could accept that.
Interesting view, @RealEyesRealizeRealLies and @Ivan – I don’t believe in the supernatural inside our system (universe/multiverse) either. I have faith that our universe will remain orderly without supernatural phenomena violating the (divine) order. So if there really is a God (and I believe there is) then it’s perfectly okay to hypothesize that it’s “meta-natural” for God to exist. We can’t know for sure. We’re part of the system. We are not part of the meta-phenomenal ‘layer’ but rather a result of it.
@mattbrowne
Picked up on my current thread. Thanks for the reply. I cannot in all good conscious continue to contribute to this thread without splintering the concept of natural to another question.
How can I possibly allow Ivan to go 2 for 2 with questions that top 200 replies? Keep this thread going and HE WILL do it… Ggaaaaaahhhhhh!
@RealEyesRealizeRealLies – There’s a lot of overlap right now. See my supernatural/meta-natural comment in the other question. Which one? Hmm… I’m losing track too…
@mattbrowne
I must say that I’m impressed with the level of interest these types of questions have generated. Lots of thinking has been engaged and that is wonderful. Even those who hate these questions are forced to consider their distaste for them, confronting their motives and discovering they have unwittingly become members of the thought police. It’s good we check ourselves.
Oh hell, there I go contributing to another Ivan Q. I think nearly half of his lurve comes from my replies.
I greatly value what you and @Ivan and other write, especially when it comes to ultimate questions, but also everything related to science and scientific progress. I met @Ivan more than 2 years ago on wis.dm and we had many wonderful debates there too. Is Fluther your first serious Q&A site involvement?
@mattbrowne
No no… I’ve had many bouts with others on wis.dm. None so famous as the ones I had with Ivan and Crisw. We started off very badly but time passes and we realized that none of us really want to hurt one another. They’ve most definitely earned my respect. So I kind of got used to that relationship. Coming to know that Theists and Atheists could cohabitate the same space. That was actually the big experiment for me joining wis.dm. And it proved positive.
Fluther is like starting all over again. Theists and Atheists have very little respect for one another. My mission is to change that, while at the same time testing the metal of my own beliefs.
Remember I owe you a critique. You sent me a book from wis.dm. I got a third way through and then had to move (it’s a long read matt). I’ll pick it back up soon because it was very enjoyable and you know how much I love linguistics.
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