Social Question
Why do children's books have religious imagery interspersed randomly?
Recently, I have been taking my 3 year old son to the library every weekend to pick out books. Typically, I don’t screen them since I want him to feel the freedom of picking his own books. In any event, these are children’s books, not adult books. What I have come to discover is that many books have either Christian themes, outright prayer or imagery randomly placed within the book. To me, this is outlandish. Why should a story about a dump truck have to refer to Christmas or a story about a girl who flies have crucifixes in the illustrations? I don’t want to have to screen every page of every book (he picks 10 at a time), but perhaps I have to?
Edit: I’m not talking about obvious ones, like “How the Grinch Stole Christmas”, but just random, out of context religiousity.
211 Answers
If you don’t want your child to see Christian imagery, then you’re going to have to review the books he chooses since he doesn’t know the difference. I don’t think there’s another way around it.
And some people think religion can never be out of context
It’s refreshingly unsuspecting of you to see the placement as random. My view is that the publishers believe that salting in a certain proportion of of the majority organized religion’s views in a way that gets the children used to that unquestioning orientation as the default helps sell books.
Because a lot of people are Christian. Surprisingly, they feel the exact opposite about christian imagery in their books.
@shilolo : Actually, i suspect that your question is disingenuous and that your views are a bit more decided than the way you stated them.
This is a tough thing to determine without looking through them. Mostly resources cvome at it from the other way. Here”:http://frankrogers.home.mindspring.com/multi.html is one resource. Here is another resource.
@LexWordsmith It isn’t disingenuous. I believe that insertion of religion into kids books is inappropriate and a form of hegemony (which I clearly stated). I asked why because I wanted to see if there are real reasons for this action, or if it really is accidental and random.
@Marina I have no opposition to clearly delineated books that have a religious theme, whatever they may be. What I am surprised about is the decidedly sneaky or “inadvertent” religious symbolism (which is almost always Christian) that is found in many books that on their face have nothing to do with religion.
For example, this book is about a girl who wakes up with antlers. Seems fine until midway through they start talking about decorating her for Christmas. Or this book (which my son loves) about a girl who builds flying machines. There are pictures of famous flyers on her wall, but also crucifixes. What point does this make? How does it add to the story?
Decorating a girl’s newly grown antlers for Christmas is obviously not religious imagery. Christmas has had nothing to do with Christ nor religion for a hundred years for most people.
You should get Dr. Seuss books for your child. No religious imagery whatsoever.
@Zendo Christmas most definitely IS about religion, and in fact, the frank dissemination of Christmas into every area of life (particularly from November to December) is a subtle form of brainwashing. Here’s another example from last weekend. He picked up this book which looked cute (well, at least the cover did). Then, nearly half of the book is about praying for this, and praying for that.
I find that many times I have to alter the words as I read it to him, or skip pages outright. It is very frustrating.
If you that worried about it, get the boy some books about islam and buddhism and judaism to balance things out.
@Facade I think you miss the point. Specific books about religion are fine. You know what you are getting when you start the book. But, surreptitiously placed religious imagery is not ok as far as I’m concerned.
@shilolo Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) just because Christmas is packed chock full of images whih you apparently equate with religion, most of us don’t accept any religious implications and have simply transferred all the religious mumbo-jumbo into a time of generosity and love.
@Facade It’s like people in the majority (i.e. whites) don’t notice that a vast majority of TV, movie, and book characters are white (but a minority does notice that). As an example, the creators of South Park created the character Token to illustrate the point in satire. Likewise, I believe that Christians either applaud, don’t notice or don’t care about the Christian imagery buried in kids’ books (though I’m sure there would be a revolt if Muslim imagery was secretly buried in kids’ books).
@ChazMaz : thanks for the info that Aramaic used the Roman alphabet. I never knew that!
@Facade : perhaps shilolo would prefer, not alternative propaganda. but none at all? Perhaps some Skeptic Society in the world has book reviewers who scrutinize children’s books for signs that they are being used to brainwash in favor of woo-woo Higher Power stuff over rational thinking and and in favor of indoctination into Big Man belief systems over thoughtful development of personal ethics.
@shi I agree with you that it is annoying. I suspect much of it is inadvertent and some of it is deliberate. I was surprised when I looked that the ALA did not have any material on this issue.
@shilolo Makes sense.
@LexWordsmith I’m sure he would prefer that, but I think he’ll just have to regulate what his child reads.
Wow I can’t believe it bothers you so much. What are you going to do if your son wants to go to Vacation Bible School with his friend one day, etc. Let him go, or screen things for the rest of his life? Lighten up.
@BBSDTfamily As I illustrated above, the majority always is ambivalent to the feelings of others. “Lighten up”? Are you kidding? As far as Vacation Bible School, that would be a big, fat, NO (admittedly, how much fun would any kid have at Bible School?). Going to church with a friend, NO. There is already too much brainwashing to go around on TV and in other media (even kids’ books, apparently) for me to willingly expose him to more brainwashing.
@Lightlyseared Yeah. Perhaps it should have been “Why do children’s books have religious imagery interspersed surreptitiously and deliberately?” I really don’t know if it is deliberate (though it seems that way) or accidental. In some stories, you can perhaps draw a connection to religious imagery (albeit very loosely) while in others there is no mistaking the deliberate insertion (like the aforementioned crucifix in the illustration of a girl’s room).
It’s because the Christian society rule North America, children books, TV shows, movies, cloths,.start the brainwash when they are young
It’s because the people writing/illustrating the books were brainwashed as kids, too. For them it’s normal for there to be that lurking religious symbolism in everyday stuff that really has nothing at all to do with religion. I think some people must do it on purpose, but for the most part it’s just that these people grew up with crucifixes on their walls, so they draw them into their storybooks, simple as that.
@shilolo, can you cite a keyword on one of the pages with the religious illustrations in the Violet book so that a search in Amazon will take me to that page?
I’m not sure if this point is relevant, but unless a children’s book author is also an illustrator, the author typically has nothing to do with the illustrations. A publisher buys the ms. and then hires an artist. So if the iconography you’re talking about is only in the pictures, the real question might be more about why artists insert those themes into books and why publishers accept them. No part of an illustration arrives there spontaneously or by chance, but how certain imagery gets there and why might be an entirely different question from the use of religious, quasi-religious, or implicitly religious content in the text.
@Jeruba I’ll have to check at home for the specific page. I tried to find the illustration online too, but failed.
Is it really that big a deal?
When I was a kid there were Christmas programs at the school and God in the Pledge of allegiance and guess what?
I didn’t fuck me up. I grew up to be a smart ass, cynical atheist.
Children read books about talking trains and magic cats in top hats. They don’t grow up thinking that trains really can talk or that, if the sun does not shine and it is too wet to play, a wise cracking feline is going to show up at their house and torment their talking goldfish.
I get your point shilolo and generally agree.
I’ve been looking at some of my own old children’s books in recent months, which has been fascinating to see how much of myself I took on from them and seem to have had influencing my adult life without realizing it. However I have not noticed gratuitous Christianity or religiosity in my books. Well, there is a lot of animism and anthropomorphizing, of course. The Caboose That Got Loose ends up in a deep forest with menacing trees with humanish faces, for example.
One “devil’s” ;-) advocate thought: Even though there are laws about freedom of religion in America, Christians are frequent in a America, and de-Christianizing them could be seen as a kind of (anti?)religiously biased alteration in itself.
Oh, and I am still generally in favor of culturally programming our children with Doctor Seuss. Hmm, I tend to think people raised with Doctor Seuss but without Christianity would be preferable to the reverse… I think they might grow up to be “better Christians” (not to mention better Buddhists) too! ;-) Just a hunch.
So blocking your child off from any and all that is religiously affiliated no VBS or church? wow isn’t brainwashing?
I do not understand all the hostility in this thread. Why should anyone else care what images or concepts you want your child exposed to?
What’s in it for anyone but shilolo?
@Blondesjon It is a big deal to me. Children are very impressionable, and even small or minor images can have lasting effects. Just ask any parent who inadvertently swears just once around their child, only to hear them repeat it, again and again. I would add, the fact that you grew up to be an atheist despite the obvious proselytizing of Christianity doesn’t mean that others weren’t more deeply effected. Perhaps you failed to learn that anecdotes don’t equal evidence. For example, I fell today when my foot got caught in a hole on the sidewalk. Luckily, I didn’t break my ankle. That doesn’t mean that the hole shouldn’t be repaired…
How about a non-religious example. Take the timeless classic Curious George series. I find it to be outdated and sexist. The original book is crazy. The man with the yellow hat traps George the monkey in a bag and carries him away from his family, and somehow they are friends after that?! In the end, he takes him to a zoo, where he is happy?! (We are to believe, happier than in his native home?) Likewise, in Curious George goes to the Hospital, all the doctors are male and all the nurses are female. Perhaps it is simply anachronistic, but the implied message there is that if you are a man, being a doctor is “right”, but if you are a woman, then you are meant to be a nurse. These types of colonial, sexist images persist in older literature and many people simply accept them, but my wife and I do not. Why should religion be any different?
@Facade How is preventing my children from going to someone else’s church brainwashing? Should I let them watch R rated movies at 5? As a parent, it is my job to educate them in whatever way is right, but I object to the subtle insertions of Christianity into everyday life.
@shilolo . . .They are children’s books and you are “adultizing” them.
It’s like saying your kids shouldn’t watch Fraggle Rock because the Doozers were a blatantly socialist society.
The secret is to spend time with your children when they read, or watch tv, or play video games or do anything else.
You do need to screen every page. That is a parent rule that a lot of folks have forgotten.
First of all, I flagged your answer as unhelpful. It was subsequently removed. You want to make a legitimate comment, be my guest. Also, I don’t quite get your constant need to refer to me as “doctor”. Does that ratchet your sarcasm up a notch?
Right. So, I guess someone should have flagged you in the other thread. Care to remove your old comment?
Do you really need to vindictively derail my thread about religion in books with your complaints? Take it elsewhere. More importantly, my comments weren’t flagged, and thus, there was no review. Flag away.
@Blondesjon Perhaps it takes a certain person to observe, recognize and understand symbolism in media? Do you think that all of the McDonald’s characters are not designed to lure kids and their parents to McDonald’s? Are you aware of the entire field of marketing, and that it clearly is directed at children? Why was Joe Camel banned? How is this any different?
@shilolo . . .I stand by my statement above. They are children’s books, not happy meals.
A three year old may say fuck if he hears you say it but he will also never say it again if you explain to him why it is wrong.
If you want to shield your child from different experiences instead of sharing and explaining them to him, I want you to remember one thing.
The preacher’s daughter was protected from different experiences too and we all know what she was doing when daddy wasn’t around.
@kevbo What, exactly, is your point? You chimed in on this thread with an unhelpful comment, simply to show your vindictiveness, and continue to derail it. Now, go away.
Is this where I start crying boo hoo? Or is it your turn? I’m so confused.
@Blondesjon I’m sorry to contradict the perfect parent, but this is not about shielding them from experiences. This is about the insidious introduction of one religion into children’s books. If you fail to understand that, I guess there is nothing more that we can discuss.
@shilolo . . .Why the passive/aggressive attitude and the thinly veiled insults?
If it’s a matter of simply needing to be “right” you are out of luck. Parenting isn’t a high school debate.
I think you’re being a little over-sensitive to the placement of religion in children’s books, but it’s your right to dislike it. Many, many people are Christian, so evidence of that shows up in places you might not want it to.
There are people who don’t want their children to be exposed to being a carnivore, or friends with someone of a different race, or not being home schooled, or having a mommy who has a job, and on and on… These are things that many people experience as normal in their lives, so if you don’t want your child exposed to it, don’t allow them to be.
I kind of agree with @Blondesjon when he says you do need to screen every page. If this is something that truly bothers you about children’s lit, then you do need to look through every single book your child picks out, no matter how tedious it may be.
You’re the parent- the issue is with you editing your child’s world, not with the world being pre-edited.
There are LOTS of books out there with no religious imagery, and even some about atheism.
edit: I think the Joe Camel comparison is ludicrus, if you were actually comparing it to religious imagery in books. Joe Camel was making something that will get you addicted and eventually kill you seem like it’s made for kids. Jesus, no matter what your religious beliefs, will not give you cancer, make you smell, cough, or send you to an early grave.
Man, I completely agree with you. The pursuit of justice and equality for everyone includes removing these implicit stereotypes from everyone’s reading material, but putting it in kids’ books is so much worse.
It does sound like your only option is to vet them first. Maybe get recs from like-minded parents you know?
@nikipedia . . .Perhaps you could all get together and burn them in a big pile.
@nikipedia Yeah. We do like a lot of more progressive authors, like Todd Parr. My question/complaint was more about the totally random books. I hate the idea of needing to go through every book, page by page. My son totally loves the experience of picking books, and having to make him put a bunch back would be disappointing.
@nikipedia . . .Because you all are acting like the Christians you are so against.
You want to remove content from books that have been around forever just because they don’t agree with your beliefs.
That might make me a dick but at least it doesn’t make me a name caller or a hypocrite.
@Blondesjon: I have nothing against Christians or people of any other religion. This has nothing to do with my personal beliefs, which I actually never even discussed. It has to do with creating a society that genuinely treats all people equally instead of just talking the talk. One important way to do that is to remove implicit stereotypes, like books that assume that everyone is Christian and treats Christianity as a default belief system.
I think it would be a lot more productive if you would not make assumptions about me and my beliefs. I found your comment really insulting and completely uncalled for.
@nikipedia . . .And you are the one who decides what content is and isn’t appropriate? This has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with censorship.
and get off of your high horse. you just called me a dick.
It seems to me that many of the people who have responded in thread are missing the point. It is inappropriate for an illustrator to put drawings of a crucifix in a book that is marketed as a secular book for children. Just as it would be inappropriate to put in a Star of David or a Flag of Islam. If a book is marketed as a secular book it should be just that, it shouldn’t turn religious half way through. @shilolo‘s point seems to be that parents are bombarded with this stuff from every direction as it is and that some things should just be simple without a hidden message or hidden imagery. Children’s books are one of those things. I think it is a good point and I agree with it completely.
I do purposely avoid books with outdated messages such as the Curious George book linked upthread, but should I really have to review even seemingly innocuous books for the subtle messages they might be sending my kid?
@Blondesjon, I can’t speak for anyone else in this thread, but I don’t think banning books or censorship is the answer. I just think that authors and publishers should make the content of the book more clear and not try to sneak in this propaganda.
@SuperMouse . . .i’m sorry. did i need to put a tilde at the end of that burning comment?
@Blondesjon yes, yes you did I take things very literally you dick!*
*Just kidding about the “dick” part, but since you invited nikipedia to call you one…
@Blondesjon: Are you being intentionally obtuse or do you honestly not understand the difference between censorship and not pushing an agenda? Did you have a bad day or something?
@SuperMouse “should I really have to review even seemingly innocuous books for the subtle messages they might be sending my kid?”
I definitley hear what you’re saying, but yeah, you should if there’s messages you see in books that you want to keep away from your child. Like I said in my earlier post, if there is something fairly mainstream you want to keep from their child (working women, eating meat, etc) you gotta screen.
@SuperMouse . . .my humblest apologies ms. mouse. i am a bit hurt that you would think i actually wanted to burn any books.
@Blondesjon thanks for the clarification about your desire to burn books,( Mouse wipes the sweat off her brow), I knew I couldn’t have misjudged you that badly!
@nikipedia . . .There was an uproar a few years ago because a group of Christians got it into their head that Huckleberry Finn should be banned because Jim referred to Huck as “honey chile” and such. They claimed it was a blatantly homosexual, interracial relationship.
I think that is bullshit. That is simply the way the times were and that is how folks spoke. It is still a classic of American literature.
Trying to remove the content of Children’s Books that you don’t agree with is the same thing. Where do we draw the line and who decides what is and isn’t appropriate?
My vote is to leave the books alone. If you don’t want your kids to read them then don’t let them read them.
Jesus, you people want to police everything.
@Likeradar part of the point here is that I don’t necessarily want to keep any religion from my child, I just want to introduce them on my terms and not be shocked when a little girl in a plane starts flying against a background of crucifixes. It just seems incongruent and wrong.
@shilolo am I correct in assuming that you are not against discussing Christianity (or any other religion) with your child and you are not trying to “shield” him from anything? I think the point is that there is a place for these things and mainstream secular children’s books are not the place.
@shilolo, I almost forgot, here is the book about airplanes my son loved above all others! Your son might enjoy it!
What a daunting task it would be to have to pre-approve everything your child will ever come across, be it through books, TV, school, friends, etc. I guess the only way to get around the bombardment of Christian values and symbols is to teach your kids to actually see these things, to recognize them and not just act as a sieve to the ideas being presented. But then that’s a good idea for pretty much everything, not just religion. I bet your kid sees more Disney images in a day than Christian images.
I think critical media studies should be required curriculum in public schools.
@tinyfaery . . .What is happening here?!? I’ve agreed with dominicx, ivan, and now you this evening. I do believe that is a sign of the approaching apocolypse.
All I can say is that your children are not you. They are independent beings and they will eventually have to make up their own minds about a lot of things, including religion. However, your comments on what they see and hear about religion will probably affect them more than any accidental exposure to Christian imagery.
Whether you believe that the bible is the actual word of god or just an interesting compilation of early writings, it is still a book that is involved in much of the literature of Europe and North America and your kids should learn enough about it to recognize references to it in culture. Odds are, those books with crucifixes on the walls in the illustrations were written by or illustrated by a practicing Christian.
Other books, such as Curious George, are a reflection of culture at the time they were written (in the case of Curious George this was in the 1930’s, when doctors were male and nurses were female). You can either not let your kids learn that things were different in the old days, or you can go ahead and expose them to the differences and discuss how much has changed for the better, but how much still needs to change.
Besides, don’t you check to see what books your kids read? I always did when they were little, in large part because I read the books to them or with them. I don’t as much now because they are older, but they also know that they can discuss anything with me and get my viewpoint.
Well now that I’m done flagging all kinds of useless comments on this thread as either obscene or unhelpful and letting go of all the hurt religious feelings and insults of hypocrisy, I’ll say I’m with @SuperMouse…random religious imagery representing any religion have no place in books that aren’t specifically about those religious…do my own beliefs get in the way? you’re damn straight they do…I don’t want my children exposed to subtle message of religion when they have no need for it until they decide they do…just because something’s been around for a long period of time, @Blondesjon , will never inevitably make it right…
@Simone_De_Beauvoir . . .I agree. I never said it was right. I said if you don’t like it don’t read it.
and you do realize that your attitude is christian in everything but belief in a god right?
@shilolo Your kid will resent you for sheltering him so much. Those are usually the kids that grow up and do just the opposite of what you want.
@Blondesjon
well just like anything it’s about availability
for a long time there were no dolls other than white dolls
so what about kids that wanted to play with dolls but had no dolls that looked like them? should we have told them to just not play with dolls when that’s all that some kids play with? ..you can question tv programming this way, heteronormative society, everything…just because something exists and it’s the majority, you can’t just ignore it or you’ll have nothing…why do people have to go elsewhere when the library is everyone’s place?...and sure many of my beliefs align with christian beliefs…this doesn’t make me happy or unhappy…it just is…technically speaking, I don’t care how people come to these kinds of beliefs, as long as they do
@Simone_De_Beauvoir . . .There are plenty of channels on tv (not just white dolls) and a lot of books in the library.
If you don’t like it. Don’t read it. Don’t watch it. Don’t listen to it.
Most importantly, just because you don’t like it doesn’t give you the right to tell me I can’t.
@BBSDTfamily is right about the sheltering thing. Take heed.
@Blondesjon yes why don’t we just go to a remote island and start a new society? i wish…
anyway, no one is telling YOU you can’t
we’re saying WE don’t want to come across it in a place where it’s not called for
i don’t care if you let your child swim around in crucifixes and scare the hell out of them about hell, that’s your prerogative…asking for religious imagery to be removed from non religious books is NOT unreasonable
I would suggest avoiding books published by Zondervan, however, if you are trying to avoid religious imagery
Oh, and I went to VBS with friends when I was a kid, and even went to a full-on Christian sleep away camp and it never affected me. I am still an atheist and my mother is still a Unitarian.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir. . . Removing content from any book is bullshit censorship. I don’t care how you wish to rationalize it it doesn’t change the fact that you are saying books don’t belong in a library.
@Blondesjon I don’t believe I ever said any such thing in my life. Please do not extrapolate my words. Nor did @shilolo even implied that in their question. I do no support censorship but I do not support religious imagery in books where they do not add to the matter at hand. Do you believe religious imagery is necessary in children’s books?
@Simone_De_Beauvoir . . .Why not? Do you believe that you should be the one to decide what content is allowed in what books?
There are a lot of things in books that some think are “unnecessary.” Vegetarians might not want their kids to see people eating meat in their books. Same concept.
Children’s books sometimes have Christian imagery in them because they are written and/or illustrated by people whose minds contain Christian imagery. The solution is simple. If you don’t like books with Christian imagery in them, then choose different books.
@Blondesjon I have a right, just like any other person, to state that I believe religious imagery is unnecessary. I don’t think I will ever be able to censor books, nor is that my life’s desire. I think, however, it is entirely necessary to discuss the matter posed by @shilolo without being accused of censorship. And why should people with religious inclinations be any more likely to say what should be in books or not?
@Darwin and @Facade I understand both of your points, but, again, I would like to mention that nothing is just is, in this life, nothing is without intent and nothing occurs in an isolated environment. People excuse sexism in our culture by saying there’s a demand for it and that it is simply about supply and demand, just economics. But things are never just simple. As a parent, I will obviously look at the books my toddler is exposed to but it doesn’t have to be difficult for me to find books without religious imagery and I don’t have to look more or pay more for it. Just like with my question about buying clothing for toddlers that’s not as vapid and sex segregated (in case you’ve seen it on fluther), I don’t have to go that extra mile or spend that extra dollar to find something less limiting for my children. I shouldn’t have to, but I do, and we must discuss why. Same with books and their subtle messages.
@Blondesjon I’m sorry, let me get back to our discussion…why do you believe it is necessary for religious imagery to exist in children’s books?
I don’t excuse sexism, racism, religionism, or any other ism for any reason, economics, tradition, or anything else. Instead I prefer to educate my children on why these things exist and why I personally believe they should be changed.
In any case, since you are not the writer, illustrator or publisher of these books you don’t have much say as to whether the symbolism is necessary or unnecessary. It is apparently necessary to the folks who made the book. Now it is your turn to vote with your feet and choose a different book.
Very few of my children’s books include religious symbolism of any sort. But then, I also buy as many or more books than I get from the library. Perhaps you need to go to a different library?
My point here is that the creator of the book has the right to decide what is necessary or unnecessary in their creation. However, the reader of the book can choose to not read a book with that element in it.
And anytime anyone wants something particular rather than what is generally available, they typically do end up having to search it out or pay extra for it.
@Darwin what kind of other library should a person go to?
@shilolo You can get books reasonably priced from Scholastic Book Club My daughter has her brother’s hand me downs from when they were in grade school. I just looked through approx. 20 of her books and none of them had religious imagery.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir The Froggy books are the best!
“Frrrooggyy!”
@Simone de B. – One that carries books more to your liking. Our public library is run by a man who believes that books will be gone soon, that computers will rule all, and that the library should only stock the best sellers. Possibly your library is run by someone who thinks kids need Christian imagery in books.
As a result, I do go to the public library but I also go to the university library, the college library, the public school library, the Montessori school library, Barnes & Noble, Half Price Books, Amazon, Alibris and ABE, and I buy books from Scholastic.
I really don’t think that anyone who has weighed in on this discussion is in favor of censorship. What those of us who are agreeing with Shilolo seem to be saying is that we are interested in disclosure. We should not pick up a book expecting a lovely story about a girl who builds planes only to be bombarded with religious imagery. It isn’t about censorship it is about how these symbols are presented as the norm as part of these stories To me that is not only advancing a single agenda, but it is marginalizing families and children who do not hold these same beliefs. OK, maybe that is a stretch.
Of course I have the right to avoid books such as these or any other material I believe is inappropriate for my kids. Yes, I believe that the only form of censorship that is ok is the personal decision about what to buy, watch, etc. But the fact is when one picks up a book and expects it to be a simple children’s story and see so many Christian images they weren’t expecting it is surprising to say the least. Don’t remove the images, just let us know they are there so we know what to expect. When I pick up books from the local Baha’i center, I expect them to have a certain theme, as when I get books from the local Christian book store, that is all I think anyone is asking for with the books mentioned.
@BBSDTfamily I think it is incorrect to assume that any of the parents in this thread want to shelter their children from these things, I just think they want to make the call about when and how to introduce these concepts.
@SuperMouse I disagree. I asked her if she would let her son attend a religious activity with his friends when he becomes older and she gave that an absolute no. This is sheltering, not choosing how to introduce things. She doesn’t want them introduced at all, which is sad b/c unless she homeschools him and then keeps him locked in the house until he’s an old man, she can’t control what he’s going to be exposed to. If she is freaking out over a cross in the back scene of a book, I can only imagine what life will be like in a few years..
@BBSDTfamily shilolo is a man. In the response you reference @shilolo actually says he would not let his son go to church with a friend, not that he wouldn’t let him go to church at all – there is a difference there. I would be willing to take my kids to other churches to learn about religions other than ours, but unless I was familiar with the church and the minister I wouldn’t let them go with a friend either. I would also like to go on record as saying that I would not send my kid to Vacation Bible School. I think that is a fair enough point of view considering very few Christians would be willing to send their child to Baha’i summer school.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir You wrote we’re saying WE don’t want to come across it in a place where it’s not called for i don’t care if you let your child swim around in crucifixes and scare the hell out of them about hell, that’s your prerogative…asking for religious imagery to be removed from non religious books is NOT unreasonable
Rewritten: we’re saying WE don’t want to come across feminism I’m assuming you meant religious iconography in a place where it’s not called for i don’t care if you let your child swim around in positive female images and scare the hell out of them about men, that’s your prerogative…asking for positive female images to be removed from non feminist books is NOT unreasonable Do you still agree?
@tinyfaery well I don’t agree with your ideas of feminism, so I’m going to assume you’re just using the normative understanding of it…but feminism and religious iconography are not the same thing…feminism is not a religion and feminist books are hardly the norm in libraries…but please do let me know when your children are suffering from subtle messages of equality in books…god (pun intended) forbid, :)
@SuperMouse – When I was a kid our church actually supported us going to different churches just to see what they were about. One of the churches we went to was a Baha’i church. Others included Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, Christian Science, and Spiritualist (that was cool – they held a seance during their service). The Jewish temple came to us as they didn’t want to be invaded by non-believers.
My parents always let us go to other people’s churches and other people’s vacation bible schools, and then were very willing to discuss what we saw and heard there. None of us have become anything bizarre as a result of that. In fact, we grew up to be quite tolerant of the different beliefs espoused by others.
Well, my sister became a Buddhist, but then my mother is a Unitarian and my father was brought up as an Episcopalian, and my husband attended the Buddhist temple, the Episcopalian church, and the Congregational church when he was in the internment camps, so she fits right in.
I have done the same with my kids. When my neighbors invited my daughter to go to their Church of Christ service or their VBS, I said fine, that it would be interesting to see how other families believe. When she came home we discussed what she had observed. She did this with several different friends, all of whom attended different churches ranging from Catholic to Baptist. As a result, I believe that my daughter is very tolerant of the religious beliefs of others.
People tend to fear what they don’t know or understand, and then they tend to demonize what they fear. I believe in teaching my children that many differences are just that, differences, not something to fear or demonize or put a stop to.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir . . .What libraries do you go to?
@Blondesjon The Central NYC public libraries in Manhattan and in Brooklyn and the NYU library, why?
I was raised as a Christian, and I married a Jewish man, thus our children are half ‘n half (in a cultural way – neither of us practiced any religion at all). This is how we’ve always handled religious issues… we talk about them. If someone tells our kids that Jesus is the only way to God (and trust me, this will happen at some point), we discuss why that person may feel that way, but also discuss the many other points of view that are contrary to that belief. Religion, like any other issue one may not agree with, will come up in the unlikeliest of places.
Christian imagery is everywhere in our country, and there isn’t really a practical way to avoid it once your kids are out in the world. I think preparing them to be agnostic free thinkers (or Jewish or Baha’i if that is your preference) in the face of that is pretty important. Use the surprise religious encounters as opportunities to start that dialogue.
@Darwin I’m not trying to keep my children from knowing or understanding faiths different from ours. Personally, I was raised Catholic and most of my family remain practicing Catholics, as a result my children have attended Catholic weddings, funerals, baptisms, First Communions, Confessions, and Confirmations. I have absolutely no problem with my children being exposed to other faiths, what I do have a problem with is these things being forced upon them in an arena that is – or should be – completely separate, unless I have chosen a specific book for its religious message.
One of the central beliefs of the Baha’i Faith is Progressive Revelation, meaning that Jesus, Abraham, Mohammed, etc. are all considered manifestations of God. What goes with that teaching is a strong belief that all faiths have value and all should be studied. Before ever even considering joining the Faith, every Baha’i is encouraged to independently investigate the truth by studying many different religions and having a deep understanding of each.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir . . .Because I find it very hard to belive there are no books on feminism available there.
@Blondesjon well of course there are books on feminism – but children’s books with feminist imagery? really? you send me a link or a pic of one – I’d appreciate it…but again, that’s not what my need is in terms of children’s books
I didn’t mean fminism per se, but ideas of female equality. If we followed @Simone_De_Beauvoir‘s ideas in the 60’s and 70’s, images of female equality might not have been present.
@tinyfaery wait, I just want to get something straight: you’re equating putting subtle religious imagery into secular children’s books as somehow revolutionary or politically important? I’m sorry but that does not compute in my head. One is an inclusive, at least to me, movement for equality of genders…any religion is by its most normative standards exclusive (yes, as are some waves of feminism but I don’t agree with them)
One of my kids’ favorite books was one that asked the question, “what if it isn’t a pizza man but a pizza…” with the blank filled in with various words, including lion, dragon, dog, and so on with the appropriate consequences (if it were a pizza dog you would only ever get an empty box with chew marks on it). The children in the book were much relieved to discover that it was a pizza woman who was the pizza man. Thus, the book was an opening to discussing why we say things like pizza man, manhole, and so on. A nice introduction to feminism for little kids.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir . . .No. One is your flavor and one is not and that is my whole point. It’s fine to read My Two Mommies but the nurse in the Curious George books had better not have a cross on her nurse’s cap.
This is two sides of the same hypocritical coin.
@Blondesjon
My Two Mommies is written specifically to expose children to different kinds of families and to allow kids with two mothers or two same sex parents to see their families identified in print – Curious George books aren’t there to promote Christianity, are they? And the Nurse doesn’t have to have a cross. I know you like to call me a hypocrite a lot, that’s your m.o., I get it, but I really don’t understand what it is I said that is hypocritical. To me, feminism or sexuality is not religion. Feminism and sexuality involves ALL people…but not ALL people believe in God
But Curious George was written in 1930’s France, where most hospitals were run by nuns, most doctors were male, and all nurses were female. In that time and place the nurses did have crosses on their caps because they were nuns.
If the books were written in the United States of today it would be different. But they weren’t.
You are trying to pick and choose what content is available in the books people choose to read. You are trying to pick this based on your personal opinions and beliefs. You have stated that these things need to be removed.
I say, once again, if you don’t like it, you don’t have to read it, look at it, talk about it, or buy it. Other folks may want to and you are trying to tell them that they can’t.
If I was teaching a class on censorship I would use you as a prime example.
@Darwin . . .Exactly. It’s not part of some Christian plot. Look at my Huckleberry Finn example above.
@Darwin Oh, well fine then. I have never read a Curious George book, nor have my children. I didn’t grow up in this country and my toddler reads books in Russian, so I just don’t have exposure to its context. But given the background you gave me, that makes sense then that the nuns have crosses obviously.
@Blondesjon you teaching a class on censorship? I’d want to attend that…I can see where I can you use as an example in a couple of my classes as well…You can tell me not to read it but I will too talk about it
I’m not saying it’s politically important, I’m saying to say that one sort of subtle imagery is okay, but another is not, because you do not agree with it, is censorship. Now if you are okay with censorship, that’s fine, but at least admit it.
@tinyfaery I will always admit to what is true. I do not need feminist imagery to be subtle and wouldn’t support it in books showing up randomly either, whatsoever. I would like it to be the book’s clear intent. And people, if they aren’t into equality between the sexes can then buy the religious books instead, if they so feel like it. Except I’d want the books showing religious imagery to be clear as to what they’re showing as well. As a child I had a wonderfully illustrated kid’s bible, one of my favorite books ever. Edit: I didn’t want to imply that all religious are inherently unequal in their treatment of the sexes, I mean to say that if people don’t want to expose their kids to feminist symbols, they don’t have to, it is their choice
@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’m confused. You just wrote this statement on a thread this evening.
”@dannyc not even that I learned from their stupidity, I learned from my environment’s sense and logic – I grew up in NYC, I am thankful for that”
Where did you grow up?
@jonsblond Age: birth-5 Baku, Azerbaijan
Age 5–11 Ust-Labinsk, Russia
Age 11–25 Brooklyn, New York
ok, I got about half way through these posts… and some good arguments were made but I got bored of the bickering.
Let’s break down first, shall we, why on earth these children’s books often contain religious material.
option one: A Religious Conspiracy!
In an effort to brainwash the masses at the earliest age possible, the Pope bribes failed novel writers to secretly insert JC propaganda.
Option two: Piss off Atheists!
Christians hate you, and you’re kids, they know it bothers you, burn in hell pagans.
Option Three: Blame the authors!
Consider this, a world where the majority of children’s book authors came up with their own ideas, drawing, and plot. Now imagine that these authors, as many people are, believe in God, truly and lovingly, and they grew up under the belief that religion in a child’s life is a very good thing at that age. Now, I know what you think, Boobs! I don’t want other people deciding what’s best for my children! and I understand what you mean. But they’re not, they’re writing a book that they think children will like, and will help them, there are plenty of books that don’t have religious connotations that aim to do the exact same thing. You are perfectly capable of deciding what you’re child is exposed to.
It’s nothing more than a writer’s self expression rubbing off on their work. Look at it this way, when you saw The Boondock Saints were you insulted by the aspect they were religiously motivated? no, you thought “damn that was badass…”
When it comes down to it, all this bickering has one simple answer, do what you think is right as a parent, if you don’t want your children to be religious, then do what you need to prevent it.
@SuperMouse Your analysis is spot on. It’s about control. If and when they are exposed to religion, I want to be able to be involved directly. I don’t want my kids to be insidiously inculcated with Christian symbolism, plain and simple.
@Blondesjon When I want parental advice, I’ll ask for it. Thanks….
@BBSDTfamily You don’t know me from a hole in the wall, and yet you feel you can judge me? I can guarantee that my kids are as far from sheltered as possible. By choice, we live in San Francisco, one of the most diverse cities in the country. My son’s 3 best friends are Korean, Japanese and Indian. His 3 favorite teachers are muslim, African-American and gay. He eats sushi, chinese, mexican, indian, middle eastern, thai, and american food. We take him all over the city, and around the country. So, I shelter him because I don’t want him seeing religious imagery everywhere? Get real.
I would be willing to bet my life that if the situation involved lots of insidious muslim imagery, the (now minority) Christians wouldn’t feel so blase nor would there be belittling comments like “just don’t read it.” That is my whole point. My son picks books at random. They look good, and yet….
@ABoyNamedBoobs03
no one was saying that it was or is a religious conspiracy…why do people feel the need to put words into other people’s mouths…
just wanted to say I’m off to bed, thanks for the discussion, can’t wait to read more in the morning..damn you, flutherites, for keeping me up so late
lol I didn’t say anyone did, I didn’t mean for you to get defensive, it was just a possibility and more of a joke to begin with. you know, sense of humor, that sort of thing, all apologies.
@ABoyNamedBoobs03 no, yeah, I get it, jokes…here i was considering your response as a valid one
@Simone_De_Beauvoir “why do people feel the need to put words into other people’s mouths…”
At least it’s words and not feet. Oops! Wrong thread. ;)
@jonsblond lol…now that’s, @ABoyNamedBoobs03, humor
oh no, now your hubby will come and say I’m censoring humor…I don’t want to make him mad…hugs you guys, night
lol I like using a little bit of humor to add to my point, what’s wrong with that? just because you didn’t catch the sarcasm at first doesn’t mean I can’t have any fun.
@ABoyNamedBoobs03 child, you have all the fun you can handle…i wish you that…and yes the pope picture was funny
My son totally loves the experience of picking books, and having to make him put a bunch back would be disappointing.
Children will be disappointed in life. Sometimes it will be your fault.
What if I don’t believe in witches or fairies and do not want my daughter exposed to them? They show up in a lot of books that don’t advertise “This book may contain witches” and are not marketed as fairy tales or Wiccan or whatever. What would I do? I would check the books to make sure none of that is in there before I approve it for my daughter. I would certainly not expect anyone (let alone the authors, illustrators, editors, publishers, marketers and sellers of all books for children) to conform to my expectations so that my daughter won’t be disappointed that she can’t read If You Give A Pig A Pancake because there is a fairy wand in the toybox on page 8.
I am the one with the concern so I am the one who needs to put in the extra effort. She is my child; that is my responsibility. No one else cares what or how I want her to learn. I don’t care if it is religion, feminism, vegetarianism, the color blue or the mention of poop – if I don’t want my child to see it book, it is my job to screen the material and, unfortunately, to disappoint her by saying “no” when I disapprove.
Maybe you can flag certain parts of those books as unhelpful and then two seconds later the material will probably disappear from view. You know, kind of like when you moderate your own thread.
@Darwin Cheers to you for letting your kids explore the world for themselves and see what’s there. I think kids are a lot more well-rounded when they are able to make decisions on their own.
@shilolo Your answers about this subject are enough to judge that you are sheltering your child, yes. You are upset by religious imagery in books, you stated that you wouldn’t let your child go to Vacation Bible School if he wanted to (you even decided for him that it wouldn’t be fun!). I’m not arguing with you about this. Raise your child how you want, I’m just saying I’ve seen it 1,000 times and it’s a bad idea to try to put blinders on your kid. Have you ever considered the thought that your child may decide to be something other than muslim? And to answer your question, no Christians are not as upset by you with muslim imagery… I’m one myself that doesn’t mind it. My child will be free to experience whatever he wants in terms of religion, and although I will try to steer him in the direction I believe is right, I will respect him as an individual.
@BBSDTfamily Thank you for the unsolicited parental advice ~. Yet, you and the rest miss the point. My children will be fully exposed to a diverse panel of religions (I am not anti-religion). Only, it will occur on my terms. For instance, his school teaches about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bahai, Buddism and Hinduism (and he’s only 3!). We teach him about religion at home. But, and this is key, I simply don’t appreciate the insidious nature of religious symbolism in toddler books. Period.
@shilolo The reason so many people are giving you “unsolicited parenting advice” is because they are worried for your child. And if “unsolicited advice” is not what you want, then you are on the wrong website (this is how we do things at Fluther… we give our opinions). You opened the door when asking the question
But I will answer your original question without any added comments as you wish-
The reason Children’s books are littered w/ religious symbols is because A: the US is still predominantly Christian and B: most people don’t care as much as you seem to.
@BBSDTfamily Lol4rl. Worried for my child. Priceless. Also, in case you haven’t noticed, I’ve been on Fluther a while. I think I have a handle on how it works. Thanks.
I hardly think shi’s child is going to be harmed if he doesn’t read books w/ Christian imagery or themes. Also, shilolo is a moderator here. I’m pretty sure he knows how Fluther works. ;)
@augustlan I don’t think the child will be harmed by not reading books either… my point was just that if a picture of a cross in a book is such a big deal and if he would not allow his child to attend a religious event with a friend when he’s older, it leads me to believe that the child is being very controlled in other parts of its life too. I could be wrong, I just find it hard to believe that we’ve identified the two big things that this kid isn’t allowed to do. By worried, I did not mean the kid would be harmed, I meant that the kid may possibly (like many others) rebel from the control when he gets older which usually ends up as a negative thing for the child.
@BBSDTfamily You should really stop with the internet psychoanalysis. It doesn’t work. This statement though proves that your problem is with the fact that I oppose Christian hegemony “I just find it hard to believe that we’ve identified the two big things that this kid isn’t allowed to do”. “We’ve identified…”? What? “This kid isn’t allowed to do…” What? Perhaps in the Bible belt, not going to Bible Camp is a “problem”, but in my area, it’s the opposite.
Also, consider that sending your kid to Sunday School or Vacation Bible Camp is itself a form of control. In fact, I would argue that it is far more controlling. At least by avoiding insidious religious symbolism he cannot know it is missing or that he is being manipulated in some way (How can he know something which does not “exist”?). Conversely, by forcing or “encouraging” your child to attend a religious program, you are leveraging your parental power to foist your views upon them. So, by making your kid go to all these religious programs, maybe at the end they’ll rebel and cause trouble. How’s that for drawing ridiculous connections?
@shilolo I think you are being a little hard on @BBSDTfamily. What she is saying is not that different from what @Darwin is saying, yet you attack @BBSDTfamily. My parents were not religious but I was thankful that they allowed me to attend a weekend excursion with my best friend to Saint George, Utah with her family when I was 10. It was a Mormon service and it allowed me to witness something that I was not familiar with. It was a moment that I will never forget. Did it turn me into a Mormon? No. But I learned how others live their life. No one forced me to go, my parents let me decide if I wanted to.
I wish I had the opportunity to experience different religions as a child. To this day I have a hard time discussing religion with others because the only experience I ever had was this one weekend with my best friend.
Since when did learning become a bad thing?
@jonsblond This thread has somehow morphed into a discussion of how to raise a child with religion in their life. That was not my intent. But your point is valid. You, as a parent, should be able to control how your children experience and learn about religion. That is also my point. I want that same amount of control, but do not want my children to face a constant barrage of subtle religious imagery that over time becomes ingrained into their mindset. Indeed, that is the whole goal of much of toddler/kid marketing. A slow process of indoctrination on (name your Disney-Pixar-Mattel-Fast Food item), so that after a while, it is only natural for the kid to recognize and request said aforementioned item.
In sum, we agree that religious exposure should be under parental control. That is precisely what I am trying to achieve.
@jonsblond I beg to differ on @Darwin‘s versus @BBSDTfamily‘s approach. @Darwin doesn’t accuse me of sheltering my children, nor of causing grave harm to them by avoiding religious imagery in books and Bible Camp, nor of being too “controlling” to the ultimate detriment of my child. That is a distinctly @BBSDTfamily position, which I find offensive (and quite frankly, laughable).
@shilolo I understand the problem that you are facing. I am constantly barraged with subtle religious imagery and I’m 38. This is our society and I doubt that it will change in our lifetime. I would be able to handle it better if I had known a bit more about religion. If you only knew how insecure I feel whenever religion is brought up. I don’t answer the door when those young men in black pants and white shirts come knocking. It’s amazing that I even answered this question.
@jonsblond I understand that. As adults, I would hope that my children will have learned critical thinking skills to identify these “marketing” tools. But as kids, they do not yet have that capacity, and it is difficult enough to avoid in general (think of the heavy duty Christmas routine, every year). This is exactly why I have been surprised and disappointed to find it so prevalent in his library books (all of our purchased books are from favored/vetted authors). As I said above, I want to encourage library usage and reading, but I fear he might get discouraged by such severe muddling in his choices. Such is life for a child. More freedom, less freedom, more freedom, less freedom. And so it goes.
little known fact in all of this, Jesus knows how to have a good time
just keepin it light
@ABoyNamedBoobs03 It better not be light. I want my sundae made with whole milk. wtf? You trying to lose weight or something?
This has become a very long thread and I have skimmed mkst of the content. Interestimng thoughst, so far.
My sympathy goes out to @shilolo‘s worries. I have the same with movies and video-games. I personaly do not mind my kids coming in contact with religious propaganda, but I would like to know it, when they do.
It is similar to movies about sex, with strong violent content or cursing and swearing in it. These get warning labels and rightfully so. I wonder why a movie gets an R-rating when two men kiss, while children’s movies will without a warning introduce an angel that rewards a dying person with entry to heaven.
Adding (mild / strong) religious content as a warning label would get my vote. For books as well as movies, tv-shows and games.
Totally agree with @shilolo about unneeded religious imagery in children’s books. If you want that for your children, they make children’s bibles with pictures and simplified stories.
The fact that one religion is more predominant in a society is no good reason to shove it onto others in that society if that society is founded on religious freedom, which includes freedom from religion.
I really hate that the red scare allowed them to put “In God We Trust” on all our money and “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance (neither there until the ‘50s).
Making Christmas and Easter holidays in school certainly sends a message, even if they co-opted pagan images to make them more kid friendly.
@LexWordsmith indicated that religious imagery is needed to teach morals, but religion nor religious people have any lock on morals, and the most horrible things have been perpetrated in the name of some religions/God/whatever.
Strangely, in counterpoint, I saw a review about the Harry Potter books and Christian imagery in it and I had to laugh. This was written by a Christian and they thought that having a lion or an eagle signified Christ. As if that wasn’t another co-opted image. Obviously everything one considers brave and noble must be Christ-like. Nothing and nobody else ever did anything that might evoke such imagery. Just a little biased. Way off base.
Good and evil existed long before a bunch of sun-stroked sheep herders in the Middle East “discovered” it. The same with moral behavior.
I’ve skimmed but not read in detail this thread as I see it has derailed a bit. Thus I am responding to @shilolo‘s original question.
Ah, indoctrination. It’s quite pervasive indeed. I believe it’s a result of Christianity having a dominance over the past centuries. When the majority of the population is Religion X, icons and symbols of that religion trickle down into everything, and with no one objecting to the inclusions, they will only increase as time goes on.
You’re very right, it is brainwashing, and I do agree that it is not needed in the stories you listed. I have no doubts that these symbols are included purposefully due to the majority of their customers being Christians.
Of course it will be beneficial in the long run for your child to develop their own critical thinking skills to counter the pervasive infiltration of religion, as it is impossible for you to screen everything they will encounter in their life. But until this starts happening, and if I were in your position, I would be screening the content my child consumed until they were of an age where we could have a discussion about these symbols and what they mean. Or, I would screen to ensure they received a mix of symbols from all religions, which we could then discuss.
Religion and children are a sticky situation. If I were to have kids (very unlikely) I would raise them with no religion, as I strongly feel religion is something you have to discover and choose for yourself, and a child simply doesn’t have the mental capacity to do so.
I think getting upset about Christian imagery in kids’ books is a bit much. And I say this as an evangelical atheist who despises Christianity with every milligram of his cold, black heart.
Take C.S. Lewis books, which are explicitly Christian propaganda. I read them an adult, not a kid, but a lot of kids read them and grow up to be atheists or Jews or Jewatheists or what have you. Kids are exposed to propaganda every single day, notably when they turn on the TV and watch commercials. Almost every single children’s author I’ve read has subtly or not-so-subtly promoted a certain worldview. Part of growing up involves learning to recognize propaganda, and to differentiate good ideas from bad ideas.
Instead of hermetically sealing your kid off from any imagery or propaganda that doesn’t fit your worldview, why don’t you train him/her to recognize this stuff and think logically about it?
I don’t consider this a problem at all. However, you, @shilolo, obviously do. This means you need to screen your kid’s books. Yeah, it’s a shame you let him get attached to picking out a bunch of books because you didn’t put research into what’s going on in children’s literature today before you started this event with him. But if this bothers you that much, stop whining about it online and start screening.
As a chapter book, it seems somewhat unlikely that the young Violet would mention religion a lot—it might a little, but probably not a lot. As an illustrated guide to her life, however, if she’s Christian, she might have a cross up in her room. Why does she need a religion? What does that add to the story? It gives her the kind of depth as a character that makes her interesting to read again and again. It’s another aspect of the way that she is fully designed in someone’s head. Sure, the author could have stopped at “quirky, perky girl” but that would have been a much flatter book. It would have shown in other ways as well.
@EmpressPixie You sure know a lot about this issue for someone with no intention of having kids. And your quote “it’s a shame you let him get attached to picking out a bunch of books because you didn’t put research into what’s going on in children’s literature today before you started this event with him” is really quite irritating. If anything, I had thought children’s books would be immune to the pervasive effects of Christian propaganda.
As far as you Violet assumption is concerned, there is no discussion of her religion at all in the book, save the crudifix (which isn’t a discussion at all). It is meaningless to the storyline.
@Qingu A 3 year old is no more capable of thinking critically about religion as he is about McDonald’s commercials (he doesn’t watch TV, FWIW).
I’m actually rather shocked at the consensus being “STFU. It’s there. Deal with it.” If the same question were asked about extensive, subtle racist or misogynistic imagery, I suspect some of the same people would be up in arms.
I am also shocked. Here is part of a comment I PM’d to shilolo:
“Single weirdest thread I have ever seen on Fluther, bar none. What bug is up everybody’s ass about how someone else wants to raise their child?
Why all the defense of overwhelming messages present in our society, whether they be religious or marketing or whatever? The road to no freedom is paved with “Oh, it’s no big deal.”
Whew, I feel beat up, and I was just reading it.”
@BBSDTfamily you emphatically state that you are using @shilolo‘s answers to make the judgments on his parenting style but how much are reading into those answers? First you assumed that he was a she and in another thread you assume that he is Muslim. I’m not sure how you could have determined either of those things from reading this thread and I know for sure at least one of them is wrong.
@everyone I still think that many of the people fighting so hard against censorship or sheltering, or whatever, are missing the point. The point isn’t that these children should not be exposed to religion. It isn’t that they shouldn’t see religions symbolism. It isn’t that books with crosses in them should be banned, or that the nurse in Curious George should take the cross off of her hat. The point is that what appears to be a secular book, marketed to a secular audience should not be sprinkled with religious imagery. I am fairly certain that if many of the people responding in this thread saw the name “Baha’u’llah” sprinkled throughout the pages of a kids book about flying, they would be (as Shilolo put it) up in arms about their kids being exposed to something they don’t understand.
@Marina I could not agree with you more.
@shilolo, as far as “racist, misogynist” imagery… ever watch old Disney movies?
And if your 3-year old isn’t capable of thinking critically about religion, what exactly are you worried about him/her seeing crosses?
Do you think the image of the cross is magically going to seep into his mind and make him a Christian?
@Qingu thank you for that…. your example is good, since Disney received a lot of scrutiny on that and thankfully they have become a lot better in this respect.
Still interested to hear why you aren’t as upset about witches and fairies. Is it just Christianity in particular that you don’t want added to books without warning?
@shilolo: You obviously completely missed my point. The fact that Violet is Christian doesn’t have to contribute to the story in any obvious way if that is what helped the author write her and come up with her reactions to things. Just because she’s not standing up and declaring, “By Jesus, I will enter this flying competition thing and with God’s grace, I will win it!” doesn’t mean her religion has no part in the story for her.
Beyond that, you’re right, I do! I used to review children’s books. It’s something I picked up while my mother was getting her PhD in gifted education. She took some classes that focused quite a bit children’s lit, her prof got the books, she liked to have actual children read and review them. But education is something my mother has always been very interested in—before that, she had a very heavy hand in helping to pick out the books that populated my school library.
More recently, of course, I’ve been involved in picking out books for my darling young neighbor and cousin. And I do read each and every one of them when deciding if this or that book would be a good one and is appropriate: in reading level, meeting their interests, and other ways. While I do not screen for religious imagery, that would fit into the “other ways” for you.
And, I mean, beyond any of that I do enjoy writing and know some of what goes into the writing process for me. So I guess not wanting to have my own kids, doesn’t actually come into it that much. Huh.
@SuperMouse, but if I’m not mistaken, shiholo isn’t shielding his kids from “religion.” He’s shielding his kids from a specific religion and raising them in another religion.
One wonders if he exposes his kids to Hannukah imagery, a holiday celebrating the violent insurrection of religious fundamentalist terrorists. Or Passover imagery, a holiday celebrating the mass murder and looting of innocent Egyptians by a tribe who went on to ethnically cleanse their “promised land.”
@shilolo Now you’re putting words in my mouth. If you’re going to respond to me at least please respond to what I actually said, not things you made up.
Oh, and regarding the “but what if it was a gender issue or racial issue” thing, I love fairy tales. I love ‘em! They are totally and completely gender reinforcing, “women are useless” bits of trash, but I love them. Loved them as a kid too. My mum got around this by making sure that while I was reading Cinderella and Rapunzel, I was also reading The Paperbag Princess. Because I connected with the Paperbag Princess more than Cinderella (hey! I’m a pretty smart girl and she’s awesome) I internalized that story more than the sit around and hope my prince finds me moral.
See how that works?
I’ll admit that my first reaction to this question was a shrug of the shoulders. After all, I was raised Christian and was exposed to overt religious symbolism. That didn’t stop me from having my own thoughts as I grew older and found that the Baha’i faith made more sense to me than any other religion.
I also had to laugh at the use of the term “insidious” which typically implies “harmful” since I doubt that seeing a cross on a wall will actually harm any child who is not of the Christian persuasion.
But upon deciding not to answer this question, I went to check out a free online game that my fiance’s 12 year old found last night and was playing. This game has a lot of different scenarios in it and one of them that i saw today was “Chug the beer”.
That was when i started to realize what shilolo was talking about. Even though many people think drinking is perfectly fine and normal, we don’t want to raise him with that attitude and want to help him learn to avoid alcohol. I started thinking of the 12 year old playing this, plus the 10, 8 and 3 year old who were watching last night.
I also remember his reaction to the latest Harry Potter movie. He came home from watching it with his grandpa and said that it should have been rated PG-13. When his mom and I went to see it a couple days later, I was watching all the scenes of kids making out in the hallways and watching the scene of Hermione walking home from the bar drunk off butter beer.
This is the same type of pervasive spread of what people would classify as “normative societal behavior” and could be reacted to the same way shilolo did about seeing a cross on the wall in the background of his child’s book.
But what would the answer be?
Do we need labels on every product that state anything that might be deemed offensive to someone? How lengthy do we think those labels might be? [Caution: this book contains insidious instances of Christ, alcohol, sex, meat eaters, fighting, bad language, tv, monsters, pagans, gangs, misogynists, spiders, bodily functions and Disney]
Should we punish, with fines or protest, any author or producer of goods who dares to let their worldview enter into their creations without taking into account how every little aspect might effect someone with sensibilities different from their own?
Or is it really just the parent’s job to screen their childrens’ materials and to be sure to hold regular discussions with them about the things that they missed?
After all, there is really no way to possibly screen out all the sex and drinking references from society, so how does one go about raising a child to understand that they don’t have to be a blind follower of “the norm”?
@Qingu
I cannot find anywhere where ‘he’ is saying his kids are not to be exposed to religions. I only see he looks for control. You seem to be fighting your own figments of imagination. Sort of Don Quichote.
@fireside, unless you actively brainwash them—which I consider child abuse—all kids are going to grow up and decide for themselves whether they want to drink, or become Christians, or Jews or atheists, or Republicans or Democrats or whatever. You don’t get to own the ideas that inhabit your kids’ brains forever.
I think a parent’s ideal job (as well as our education system) is to teach kids a framework of thought by which they can evaluate all of these different ideas that they will inevitably encounter.
Of course, I say this as someone who hates children.
You know, @shilolo, I really think the base of your question isn’t unreasonable. In fact, it’s as reasonable as “why can’t we have universal healthcare?” or “why can’t we feed everyone?” or “why are we bailing out banks instead of people?” (or substitute your own commonsense question).
I have a little difficulty providing an honest response, though, because it’s probably somewhat predictable and draws somewhat from my conpsiracy perspectives which you seem to be fond of deriding. (And yet here we have a whiff of conspiracy depending upon how “random” one believes these images to be).
It’s no secret that religions, Christian ones in particular, thrive on indoctrinating the young. It’s no secret that evangelical lobbies would paint crucifixes up and down Main Street if they could. I would hardly be surprised to learn that the children’s book publising industry has an evangelical faction, whether formal or informally organized, and that the goal, stated or unstated, is to fight for yardage because little souls are what’s at stake. Somewhat related is this news about efforts to Christianize American History textbooks, which I stumbled across via one of my dreck conspiracy sites.
I think the sad(?) fact with all media today is that vanilla isn’t on the menu. Or maybe it is but is far from the absence of flavor (i.e agenda). Of course, it’s probably more true to say that there never was a vanilla, just that now more of us are more aware and sensitive to various propagandas.
I apologize if I am repeating comments above (iPhone limitations), but the media landscape is littered with symbols that reflect various agendas. For example, once you clue in to “Masonic” symbolism, you really do begin to see it everywhere. Given our history, @shilolo, I wouldn’t expect you to recognize that as a real phenomenon, but it’s quite clear to me, and it’s far from random. Here’s just an off the cuff example, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if you dismissed it as a “so what?” Similarly, look at corporate logos and see how many are pyramids or pyramids with suns or suns.
In the case of “Violet,” one might also chalk it up to character backstory, although this seems unlikely given the pervasiveness you’ve encountered.
I guess the education here is your realization that this stuff is pervasive. It takes me back to my culture theory classes where we discussed the “hyperdermic needle” model where culture is doled from above and passively accepted by the populace vs. the more plausible mode that culture that is sent from above is instead manipulated by the populace toward its own ends. Undoubtedly, your child as any child will be exposed to a lot of “junk” culture throughout his lifetime. Naturally, you can moderate the flow, but it’s probably a lost cause to filter every bit of debris. Is exposure to an image of a cross going to pervert his wonder at the idea of flying? I don’t know. Maybe this is a pick your battles kind of situation. I’d be disappointed, too, (as I am frequently vocal about my diaappointments in the area of symbols and agendas), but other than either a) starting a movement that few even on this thread seem to be interested in or b) just making the best of it, what are you gonna do?
I know I’m rambling but I have to mention that this Q ties to rainbow porn and the lack of gender neutral kid’s clothes. I guess it’s just a little harder not to be a mainstream consumer in our society.
@Qingu – “I think a parent’s ideal job (as well as our education system) is to teach kids a framework of thought by which they can evaluate all of these different ideas that they will inevitably encounter.”
I agree completely.
Raising children to be critical thinkers about the world they will encounter is the best option.
BTW, you better watch out! Hating Christians and Children makes you a prime candidate for some magical movie moment where you turn into Santa Claus or are visited by the ghosts of the past, present and future…
@Qingu I agree 100% and you have a much more tactful way of putting things than I do. Oh by the way you were a kid once, so don’t hate them so much :)
@BBSDTfamily: No he wasn’t. He has told me this himself. Multiple times. In reaction to exactly those words. :)
@fireside, I am aware of that danger and have taken measures to guard against it.
@Qingu – Some sort of Home Alone thing with paint cans on string and marbles on the stairs?
Oops, that movie has religious elements, hope I don’t come off as being insidious!
Quite frankly, I think it is a parent’s job to screen what their children are exposed to. I also think it is a parent’s job to teach their children to think critically. I read every one of my toddler’s books before they did so I could be prepared for questions about things they see that are different from our home experience. I don’t see why those opposed to crosses in books can’t do the same. It isn’t difficult to do – most picture books are relatively short.
If we need to ban all public representations of religious symbolism, does this mean we need to ban Exxon signs? After all, they feature the Cross of Lorraine..
Ya know, this is a free country after all. You can’t demand that authors or illustrator’s of children’s books follow specific rules about what they can and cannot include in their books, but you can refuse to have anything to do with the ones you don’t approve of.
@shilolo, I’d still like to see a keyword, preferably a word or phrase that occurs only on the page of the Violet book that contains the crucifix illustration, so I can search it and see for myself what you are talking about.
@whitenoise i won’t comment on the validity of most of the arguments made on this thread as all have redeeming qualities… Most of the comments have veered away for the posts original intent.. and that’s fine.. discussion is always the best way to enhance the learning experience…. however I WILL NOT HAVE YOU BESMIRCH THE GOOD NAME OF DON QUIXOTE DE LA MANCHA!!!!! FOR THIS I WILL NOT STAND!!!!! plus… i have a hard time pictureing @Qingu tilting at windmills with a chubby sidekick… maybe his cat… (I still say my dog is cuter).
My own special way of pointing out that it’s “Quixote” and not “Quichote”.
tut tut tut…
What’s all the shouting for. Maybe in your local language, but it was El ingenioso hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha a comienzos So please STOP SHOUTING. That’s poor manner! rubbing my ears
@whitenoise My local language (being a native speaker in both) happens to be both English and Spanish (at least what most people term “spanish” which is really castilian or “Castellano”)... and the Title in the Original Catalan uses the name “Quixote” and not the later spanish translation “Quijote”.
The word quixote itself, possibly a pun on quijada (jaw) but certainly cuixot (Catalan: thighs), a reference to a horse’s rump. The novel’s structure is in episodic form. It is written in the picaresco style of the late sixteenth century. Although the novel is farcical on the surface, the second half is more serious and philosophical about the theme of deception.
The novel is considered a satire of orthodoxy, truth, veracity, and even nationalism. In going beyond mere storytelling to exploring the individualism of his characters, Cervantes helped move beyond the narrow literary conventions of the chivalric romance literature that he spoofed, which consists of straightforward retelling of a series of acts that redound to the knightly virtues of the hero.
Farce makes use of punning and similar verbal playfulness. Character-naming in Don Quixote makes ample figural use of contradiction, inversion, and irony, such as the names Rocinante (a reversal) and Dulcinea (an allusion to illusion), and the word quixote.
I’m sorry to go so far off topic… just wanted to clarify a point. :)
by the way the tittle ends at the word Mancha… next time be a bit more careful when attempting to copy/paste from the spanish version of wikipedia which has limited translation value at best… if you had included 2 more words in there it would have gone to “a comienzos de 1605 which makes reference to when Miguel de Cervantes wrote the work and not to the tittle.
End rant.
@shilolo, yes, criticizing religion (including, as it happens, yours) is a recurring theme for me on Fluther. And making personal attacks is rather unnecessary, dont you think?
If you want to “regulate” your kids exposure to seeing crosses, all power to you, brother. Just sayin, if it were me, I’d prefer to focus my energies on “regulating” my kids access to barbaric, tribal stories advocating the killing and looting of large civilian populations.
It’s a question of priorities, is what I’m saying. But maybe I need counseling. :)
@Qingu Show me the personal attack. I just made an observation which I hardly think is news to you, since you just agreed with me. If anything, I have been subjected to numerous attacks on this thread for reasons that remain unclear.
I was referring, of course, to the “seek counseling” quip, but it’s really no skin off my back. I mean, I’m only bothered to the extent that you used what appears as a personal attack as a means of dismissing my point, rather than engaging it. The “ad hominem” informal fallacy, as they say.
@Qingu Most obsessions are unhealthy. I’m just looking out for your well-being…. ;-)
In any event, don’t be offended, but your point about barbarism in the bible has absolutely nothing to do with this question, which is why I didn’t address it directly. I happen to agree with you that there is much violence and barbarism in the Bible, which (again) is precisely why my wife and I will expose our kids to religion our way. The bottom line is that I don’t really appreciate the Christian “brand” percolating through secular, seemingly innocuous children’s books. I would have thought that you of all people would support that. I guess I’m wrong.
@shilolo just to get back on topic real quick… i would suggest a few (not all) books by Jean-Van-Leeuwen… the amanda pig series is cute and appropriate for younger tykes… once they get a wee bit older try “Bejy in Business” and “Benjy – football hero” (two of my favorites growing up). Keep in mind i haven’t read them in years but for the life of me i can’t remember any religious inserts of any kind. Plus they are VERY entertaining :)
@Dr_C Thanks for the recommendations. We already have a whole home library of books that we and others have purchased. However, once he discovered the kids section of the library, he only wants us to read the library books we bring back every week. Some are great (amazingly, we are now reading Tales of Oliver Pig by Jean Van Leeuwen right now, and he loves it) and others not so much. I love that he is excited to independently pick out his own books and that he truly enjoys the whole process. I’m sad that I will now have to read/skim every one, cover to cover before checking them out.
@shilolo, regardless your (non)religious background, you still have to read/skim every book first. And tv show. And movies.
And some you will let slide by for your kid to enjoy because it’s too good otherwise not to. But in those cases, you talk to your child about the questionable references.
I know you know all that already. It’s kind of interesting you appear to want to isolate Christian only references… but really, that’s just one of many areas.
@shilolo well i can tell you from experience if he likes Oliver Pig in a couple of years he will totally LOVE the Benjy books…. there’s a lot of others by Van Leeuwen that have a morality soaked plot but still without going after a specific religious demographic.
(And my mom checked every one of those out from the Public libraries both in Coronado and La Jolla).
@robmandu Now we get to the heart of the issue. Why should I have to read every page of every kids book for this? It is absurd (to me) that these references should be in there in the first place. If I want non-secular reading, I’ll borrow or buy it from any number of places. But, if I want him to enjoy reading and picking out books, is it too much to ask to not have to see religious imagery in a book about pigs (I made that last one up)? Finally, I focus on Christianity because we live in the USA, and the majority of books have Christian authors and Christian imagery (when it appears).
Finally, not one person has answered my hypothetical Q about finding Islamic symbols and discussions about Ramadan (rather than Christmas) subtly inserted into children’s books. Why is that? I propose that it is convenient to ignore the issue for the majority, but inconvenient for the minority.
@shilolo, I do see your point. I remember, back when I was nominally religious, how confused I felt when I first heard the lyrics to John Lennon’s “Imagine”—I just assumed that religion was good by default, because that was what “percolated” into my brain from my wider culture (and my parents, I guess, who were also nominally religious).
But then, I’m highly skeptical of any attempt to “sanitize” culture for kids’ viewing. I mean, it’s one thing to pick out books you like for your kids, and avoid books you don’t like. But as I said, I think it’s a bit much to banish a book solely on the basis of a cross, which may or may not reflect subtle evangelizing and, if it did, would hardly be effective. I mean, it seems like all this image would convey is that Christian children exist.
Put another way, my problem with your position is that it’s based on rather superficial images, as opposed to thematic or moral content.
@Qingu It is the pervasive branding that I oppose, not the books themselves. When a child is exposed, repeatedly, to Christian symbols, it makes it more likely for him to see it as “the norm”, rather than a choice. Everyone is Christian, why not me? Everyone celebrates Christmas, why not me? Everyone hunts for Easter eggs, why not me? And so on.
As you said, there are very real branding efforts such as vacations for Easter and Christmas, gift-giving and Santa worship over Christmas and outright evangelism. Those I grudgingly accept as part of living in the USA. I simply am surprised by how much the “brand” pervades what I thought would be (secular) media devoid of religion. That is, simple children’s books.
I really don’t think, @BBSDTfamily , that you need to worry about @shilolo‘s child…that’s only assuming that god/religion/churches are necessary to children and some of us don’t think so therefore having as little as possible exposure to indoctrination into religious ideology is a positive thing, imo…I simply do not understand parents that teach their children their religion without saying it’s just a possibility only…I’ve tried, in my own parenting, to be sensitive to all sides, given the fact that many are religious and my child will have to interact with them…but generally if that were not the case, would I be teaching him something people came up with centuries ago to explain away mysteries of nature? no, it’s archaic and unnecessary…
@Simone_De_Beauvoir: Um, @Shilolo totally wants to indoctrinate his kid. Just not into Christianity. He’s first part of the bible only.
Feel free to contradict this, @Shilolo. But given your previous enthusiastic defense of your religion, I felt it was a safe thing to say
@EmpressPixie Please don’t try to speak for me. Thanks.
@shilolo: Oh, I’m very sorry. Will you be sharing your religion with your child?
Because I notice you didn’t contradict me.
@EmpressPixie How is that any of your business? Just because we share this site doesn’t give you the privilege to pry. Show some manners.
@EmpressPixie & @shilolo come on guys… can’t we get past this now and try to be civil? We’re way off topic now and there really isn’t any point in continuing this kind of back and forth on the thread anyway is there?
@Meribast : Here is what i said: “It’s refreshingly unsuspecting of you to see the placement as random. My view is that the publishers believe that salting in a certain proportion of of the majority organized religion’s views in a way that gets the children used to that unquestioning orientation as the default helps sell books.” Please demonstrate how this means ”@LexWordsmith indicated that religious imagery is needed to teach morals.” That’s certainly not what i meant, and i’d like to learn how to avoid being misuderstood in that amazing (to me) way.
Here’s a new thought on the topic. Why don’t you get in a discussion with the children’s librarian at your local library and see if s/he is aware of the issue and has some suggestions about authors and books your child might browse that do not have Christian imagery strewn in?
I understand your concern and wonder what the librarian would say. Perhaps since this is a public library, s/he might be able to identify certain publishers that routinely include this imagery and make an attempt to balance the collection more. It’s worth a try. Most librarians are willing to engage in a rational discussion with a patron.
BTW, I, too, am having trouble with all the hostility displayed on this thread.
@janbb – I agree that approaching the librarian is an option, depending on the librarian. Some have little detailed knowledge of the books they must shelve, while others feel that the books they do put on the shelf are just fine. I have met both kinds of librarian, as well as a few thoughtful and aware people. Public librarians are often constrained by the decisions made by the head librarian or the library board.
I must admit that the best person I ever found with whom to talk about children’s books was the owner of an independent bookstore for children. I have also had great success talking to the clerks at Bookpeople, an independent bookstore in Austin, Texas, that celebrates books in addition to selling them.
However, with the marvels of the internet and book fairies such as Amazon it is quite possible to create a home library that focuses on the sorts of books you want your child to read. We did a lot of that because our family is so multi-cultural, multi-racial, and multi-religious.
@Darwin Since Shilolo was concerned specifically with having his son have a good experience choosing books from the library, I focused on that issue. The person shelving the books is rarely a librarian, i.e., does not have an MLS; I was assuming he would speak to the children’s librarian who is responsible for picking out the collection. Usually good children’s librarians are very aware of current trends in children’s literature.
By shelving I didn’t mean the person who puts the physical books back on the shelf, but rather the person responsible for obtaining the books to begin with, ie. the librarian. Unfortunately, many children’s librarians that I know are constrained in their choice of books by the rules laid out by the library board or the head librarian. At least in my experience, the folks that really love children’s books end up working someplace other than a public library because they hate the strictures put on them by the board.
@Darwin Ah – got it now. It’s a sore point because so many people call anyone who works in a library a librarian. Didn’t think that you wouldn’t know the distinction.
I know quite a few folks who work in libraries (or who used to work in libraries), so I am aware of the various qualifications and skills required.
@Darwin : i dimly remember that the technical library-science jargon for what you called “shelving” is “accessioning” and that “shelving” does indeed mean placing the books in the correct places on the shelves.