Do you ever spank your kids in front of other people when they have bad behavior?

I think you should take him to the bathroom or car to get onto him. Don’t make it a public thing. Disciplining your kids is private.

No but I’ve been very bad..um no.

Remove him from the situation. In that case, I would have taken my son to the bathroom and had the stern talk there, letting him know that was his one and only chance to get it together, or we would leave. What I say, I mean. I’ve done it before. Ordered the food, waiting for the food and asked for it to be changed to a to go order. I pay and leave. I don’t believe it’s fair to other diners to be subjected to a poorly behaved child.

For the record, I have two children, 15 and 6, this has always been how I handle this kind of situation in public.

@BBSDTfamily Why should it be private?

@Facade I don’t belive in spanking kids in public. It’s not everyone else’s business, and there is no sense in embarressing your child. Also, nobody enjoys watching someone spank their kid. I think parents who can’t wait 1 minute to take their kid into the bathroom or the car to spank them are acting out of anger, and I just see absolutely no benefit to doing it in public.

I’m with @cak. I used to take my kids to the restroom when they were bad in public. Now they are a little older 9 and 6 I can just kinda give them the “death glare” and tell them through clenched teeth to knock it off with out anyone noticing too much.

@Facade Because there are idiots who think they need to get into your business of how to raise your children and will actually berate you if you smack your kid in public.
@SeventhSense <just shakes head>

@BBSDTfamily Why not embarrass the kid as a part of the punishment?
@chyna Well yes, but a swift smack on the ass shouldn’t cause any problems

@Facade Isn’t there an effective way of punishing your child without embarassing him/her?? The point of discipline should be to let your child know that their behavior is unacceptable, not to embarrass/actually hurt them.

sorry no idea why that posted twice

A swift ass smack shouldn’t cause problems but there are nosy people out there that will try to judge you and tell you what a horrible person you are for smacking your kid. I’ve seen it before and it’s embarrassing.

lol my mom used to just subtly put her hand on the back of my neck and squeeze a bit… after that I knew I was doing something wrong and was going to get it as soon as we got home lol.

@Facade – Discipline shouldn’t be destructive, and attaching embarrassment tears a child down, it doesn’t teach them anything.

Embarrassing your child in front of people might be something your child will carry for their entire life, and something that they’ll hold against you forever. Children are smart, if you talk to them, they understand. Disciplining your child doesn’t have to be physical.

@cak Thank you for saying that! That is what I was trying to say also but you worded it much better.

@BBSDTfamily No problem. Hey…I managed a clear thought, tonight! Woohoo!!

You guys are right…kids are difficult

@Facade they certainly can be…today was one of those days, in my house!

Thank God I will never have one of those days. I don’t have the patience

I agree with @cak. I personally take my son to the car and let him cool off.

If mine misbehaved I took them to the bathroom and scolded them. I regret now not spanking them, to hell with people watching, they don’t know me! If I would have spanked them when they needed it, maybe they wouldn’t have gotten into so much trouble!

I carry a notepad with me and make marks on it when he’s bad. When we get somewhere private I give him swats based off the marks. It took a few tries for him to get used to it.. but it works wonders for me now.

But yes, I know how you feel… there’s prying eyes everywhere who will scream child abuse just for swatting your kid on the bum. It’s ridiculous.

The important thing is to remain calm. Getting a reaction out of you is only going to fuel the fire. Consistency is the key to discipline.

Kids can act very badly, no question. But if you usually spank your kids, publicly or privately, and they still act badly, then maybe the spanking (and embarrassing and humiliating) isn’t working. Try giving them some support when they do something good, and watch how quickly they will act differently.

Spanking will usually only turn a tired, misbehaving child into a screaming, crying child. I agree with @cak—pack it up and go home.

I think the public humiliation of being spanked in public is too devastating and is actually more cruel than the act of swatting a kid’s butt so if you must, it should be in private not public (even a bathroom)area. It should be in a neutral place in the home ideally and if one can’t wait that long then they may need some self control lessons themselves.

I don’t think child abuse is any more acceptable when no one can see it.

@Ivan I think it’s child abuse to not teach your child discipline personally. A swat is not a beating… if you think a swat on the bum is just too much for a kid to handle.. and that he will be permanently scarred for life.. emotionally and physically… than you have some mighty weak kids… I’m just sayin… lol

Kids aren’t stupid.. they know when they’ve done wrong.. as a kid when I was getting spanked for doing something wrong I knew I deserved it.. and I learned my lesson.. I refuse to believe that society is too weak to enforce discipline anymore.. but maybe its just wishful thinking

@NaturalMineralWater

Spanking = Discipline? Discipline = Spanking?

@Ivan No… they are not equal…........................ spanking is but one tool in the toolbag of discipline.. I just simply refuse to throw that tool away. Every child is different and responds to rewards and punishments differently.. what works for Billy might not work for Sally.. but sometimes what does work is a spanking. That’s all I’m saying.

People who refuse to spank because they think they are hurting their child are underestimating their child imho. Associating a good old fashioned spanking with a “beating” is ridiculous and incorrect.

@Ivan There’s a major difference between smacking a kid on their ass and knocking them from room to room.
i wonder why no one ever address the prospect of verbal abuse when referring to discipline

@NaturalMineralWater I agree with you entirely concerning this matter. All too often I have found that the ‘spanking debate’ comes down to two parties arguing either extreme (demolishing the buttocks of every child who steps out of line vs offering group therapy to every child who sneezes in a disrespectful tone) as though every child will react similarly to different punishments when this does not appear to be so.

Can we at least all agree that Kim needs a good spanking.

@SeventhSense high five

@SeventhSense I thought that was a given?

@SeventhSense heh..

@ABoyNamedBoobs03
..and on the DL

@NaturalMineralWater Lurve.

I am a parent that has spanked my children before. It is very rare, but it was to get their attention (when it was done) quickly. I wanted that moment forever ingrained on their minds. For example: my son ran out into oncoming traffic. I swatted his rear and pulled him out of the way, quickly. Then I got to eye-level and explained why I spanked his rear end. I also explained the immediate danger he put himself in, by running out into traffic. One quick, slightly heavy swat to the butt.

I am not a bad parent and I do not abuse my children. They do not fear me, as I have been told they will, because they have been spanked. They do not shy away from me. They come to me for everything!

The two, abuse and spanking- as a form of discipline, are apples and oranges.

I don’t spank my kids in public or in private. Ever. As an adult, I have more self-control than that and believe there are always other options. Especially since I teach my kids never to hit others – it would be hypocritical of me to spank them. And to be completely honest with you, I would be one of the people to look at you ‘weird’.

Personally, I would never spank in public or private, so for me, the answer is an unequivocal NO. In my opinion, the only thing spanking teaches kids is that it is ok to use physical violence (however “mild”) in an interpersonal relationship. I feel there are better ways to discipline children, like time outs and other interventions that don’t require anything more than a stubbornness and willingness to follow through on threats (i.e. No books tonight if you don’t stop jumping on the bed…1….2….3…Ok, sorry, no books tonight.) After a while, if you keep your composure and stick to your word, kids get the message that they don’t control you and that they cannot constantly test your limits.

@shilolo you can swing that both ways though to be honest. you could say taking away a child’s book is hindering their linguistic and cognitive development. not many people do, that is, but it’s perfectly legitimate. I absolutely hate this conversation because all it boils down to, every single, time, is that parents need to do whatever they know is right, because there’s no exact science to raising a kid what so ever.
My dad used to take a belt to my back side when I did something wrong as a child. I’m a perfectly capable human being with a rather good head on my shoulders. As are all of my five brothers…

@NaturalMineralWater

Electrocution is yet another tool in the toolbag of discipline. It also is quite effective.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 I disagree. Taking away a small privilege like books for one night will in no way hinder his development. In any event, you can also argue that physical violence from a parent to a child can alter the bond between the two. I think parenthood is about providing a trusting, loving, safe environment for my children to grow in. By hitting them, I could easily change their “views” on trust, love and safety.

We are fortunate that we have a well-behaved 3 year old (for the most part), and days can go by without a time out. However, with a younger sibling in the mix things are more complex. It is my opinion that the people who spank were spanked themselves, and thus, the cycle continues (i.e. “I was spanked, and I’m ok, therefore it is normal.”) Furthermore, having out of control children that require spanking is not always the kids’ fault. Not to start a flame war, but I think that parents that cave too easily with their kids (“Ok fine, you can watch another TV show.” Or, “Ok, fine, I said we wouldn’t read books, but now you are crying loudly, so I’ll read you one book.”) are the ones who often end up with kids that don’t behave. The kids have learned over time that limits can be breeched, and keep on doing it. Then, the parents wonder “Why don’t you ever listen?!” Go figure.

The horrors of spanking. Brace yourself it’s Buffy and Jody with the murderous Uncle Bill

@ABoyNamedBoobs03
Five brothers? I thought my Mother had it bad enough with my three brothers and I

I’m not saying I have an opinion on it either way, because I don’t, I don’t have kids so we’ll cross that bridge when we get there.
But there’s plenty of reasoning for both cases, which is why I dislike this conversation, both ways work in certain instances, that much is certain, and essentially is all that’s certain. so the conversations about this, and there’s a million of them, are all essentially moot.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03
So are we done with this topic. ~_~
I mean I wasn’t sure

yep, she was the only lady of the house and she’s a saint believe….

i hope so

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 I don’t agree with your premise that there is no “right way”. Analysis of the effects of spanking are difficult, because they rely on surveys, but, it seems to me that the preponderance of scientific studies on the subject point to long-term adverse effects (on a population basis) of spanking. That you and your brothers turned out ok does not prove spanking works. You might have turned out ok without the spanking too. It just so happens that it is a vivid memory for you, precisely because of how severe the punishment is. I doubt you remember every time you were grounded…

”You might have turned out ok without the spanking too.”

saying that is like saying that crack head down the street wouldn’t have turned out so bad if mommy bent him over his knee once or twice, there’s absolutely no way to know for sure, so it’s a flawed argument. that’s what I’m getting at here, there are plenty of example of children that turned into great adults, and shitty adults, some were spanked, some weren’t. thusly, making the argument, moot.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 I don’t think you understand the scientific method. We are talking populations, not individual cases. Even in easily studied conditions (say, heart disease), you need large populations to demonstrate the efficacy of one treatment versus another. But, once a well-conducted study demonstrates an effect, and is repeated, it becomes standard to follow that practice. I would argue that there is enough cumulative data against spanking to make it the “wrong” way. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who were raised that way, and assume it is the best way.

lol all I’m saying is that there are studies that support both claims, there’s no definitive answer Shi. I understand the scientific method perfectly, look at my interests.

I don’t spank ever. I don’t see the need for it and wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it (Btw, I’m not judging how anyone raises their child. I mean, who the f*** am I anyway?). When my daughters would act up I would give them a time-out; one minute for each year of their lives. My two oldest are well in their twenties so I’m done disciplining them now. Daughter #3 is nine. I haven’t had to give her any time-out for well over a year. She has lost out on privileges fairly recently though. Anyway, now I’m just rambling and you’ve probably just moved on to the next posting, which is what I would probably do if…
Sorry.

Well, since you used an anecdote about your own life experience to buttress your argument, I would argue differently. For the record, I would be interested in seeing these “many studies” that support spanking.

lol so just because I use a simple, familiar example I don’t understand the scientific method? I don’t really see how you get to that point.

When I argued you might have been fine without spanking, and referred to studies arguing against it, your reply was again a pure anecdote “The crackhead….”

You are 100% correct that on threads like this, people can exchange life stories forever, which is precisely why large studies are favorable. Even though individual studies are often critiqued, the bulk of the evidence points towards detrimental effects of spanking, which is why the American Academy of Pediatrics is strongly opposed to spanking.

Spanking is not the right approach in my mind. Ever. It just shows your children you lost control and resort to violence after that. It will teach them that violent punishment is part of normal human interaction.

My kids are six, have never been spanked and all I ever heard of anyone is that they are very well behaved.

There are so many more alternatives open to a grown up adult with all life’s experience and ability to put things in perspective that spanking is never necessary. Besides they get used to it and they get less impresed..

Unless you can clone a child and have 2 absolutely identical children raised in the absolutely same set of life circumstances except one gets a swat on the bottom on occasion and the other gets a time out, how can you ever claim a study shows that one way is the only way or even the best way to raise every child.

And really just because it is the flavor of the month with the American Academy of Pediatrics this month doesn’t mean it will be the same next month and even if it is, they are not infallible. Look at Thalidomide, that was the flavor of the month too, and all the learned doctors and their tests said it was a wonderful drug, until it was too late.

@Ivan…. you’re wasting my breath.

@non-spankers Hey, if you don’t want to spank your kids.. great! That’s fine! Those are your kids! I don’t mess with how you raise them despite how much I disagree. Why should I be eyeballed just because I give my kids a swat… are you kidding me? It’s these same “eyeballers” that make parents afraid to discipline their children for fear that CPS will be called on them..(What’s absolutely terrifying is that some of you are saying.. they should be called on you for that)...

In that regard, we are at an impasse… anything further I say will just be heard as “bla bla bla bla bla” . Some of you need to seriously go back and watch some Andy Griffith and see how parenting is done right… lol

As a parent, you should control the situation in order to control the child. That means not going out at times when your child is most cranky, not choosing restaurants with long waits, making sure you have distractions on hand when you do go places, not taking children to child-inappropriate places or events (adult movies, long shopping trips, adult only social events) or situations that provide overstimulation. Kids do outgrow this phase, and parents need to understand that there are just certain situations where you can’t expect small children to “be good”, which really means “act like an adult”.

I’m a big fan of removing children from the scene of the crime, as it were. I refuse to let other people suffer having to listen to my kid have a meltdown.

My daughter gets one warning, then…everything stops.

I have literally left an entire carriage, full of groceries, sitting in the aisle.

And for the record, I am also against spanking and public humiliation.

@NaturalMineralWater I think people have a lot of right to tell their opinion on how to raise children to other people. The results of proper or improper upraising are heavily impacting society. If you spank your children chances are your child will more likely settle his arguments with other people by getting violent as well. That violence may impact, for instance, my chilldren in the sandbox. Or my father on his way home to retirement home.

There is an overwhelmingly strong correlation between violence in pur homes, growing up, and one’s chances of becoming an abusive parent/husband. The product of what we raise is not just ‘our’ business.

Besides… children aren’t property.

@whitenoise You’re equating violence with spanking? That is madness.

Spanking or not spanking isn’t the deciding factor in effective parenting. We have never spanked our kids. They are not perfect, but I rarely have trouble with them in public and they behave very well at school. We use time outs, early bedtime, take away things like TV, games, etc. We take the time to explain what the kids did wrong and have them come up with ideas on how to avoid having it happen again. Then there are common sense things—you make a mess, you clean it up. Everyone, even the 4 year old, has chores around the house. Would a spanking now and then turn them into violent maniacs? I doubt it. Will they someday turn “bad” because they haven’t been spanked? I doubt that too. There’s so much more to parenting than deciding whether or not to spank.

One reason I don’t spank is that it would make me feel like a hypocrite. One of the biggest rules in our home is “No Hurting Others.” We stress to our kids that as a family we take care of each other and help each other. It’s OK to get angry or frustrated, but hurting people is not an acceptable way to express that anger. If I want my kids to respect those rules, I should respect them too.

I don’t think spanking, as most people would define it, is abuse. I also don’t think it’s necessary. To answer your original question, no I don’t think children should be spanked in public. Or in private. If I had been in your situation, I would have given the child one warning: “Stop now or we are leaving and going straight home.” If the behavior didn’t stop, I’d be out the door with that kid. There might also be consequences at home, depending on the child’s age. I’d also ask myself if the child was overly tired, very hungry, or bored. Did I have unreasonable expectations for a child of that age? Meaning, don’t expect a toddler to be able to sit at a table for as long as an older child or adult. I think each of my kids has had a total of one public tantrum. They learned very quickly that behavior like that earns a trip straight home. What’s the point of a spanking on top of that?

@NaturalMineralWater
Perhaps you, as an adult, can see the difference between violence and spanking
The kid doesn’t understand the concept of violence and since spanking is what he does know and some parents spank quite hard, they may not make the correct connection

I, as an adult, don’t see the difference between violence and spanking. Any decent definitions of the words ‘violence’ and ‘spanking’ are bound to be compatible.

@NaturalMineralWater
Maybe it is my somewhat poor understanding of the English language, but isn’t spanking an activity in which you cause physical pain to your child through hitting him/her?

How could you avoid violence while doing that?
(I thought the pain of spanking should be so significant that it should be considered a punishment.)

@rooeytoo In medicine and epidemiology, there are all sorts of clinical trial designs. Not all of them are randomized, double blind studies. The studies done on spanking are observational studies, and thus are not as well-controlled as randomized double blind studies. That, in and of itself, does not invalidate the studies. For example, the data on smoking and cancer did not come from randomized studies, but rather, from observational studies. You cannot dismiss studies of spanking off hand simply because you don’t agree with them. And creating a straw man argument out of thalidomide doesn’t change the fact that spanking is physical violence directed at children.

I propose this question. For all those in favor of spanking, if you had access to an equally effective non-spanking method of discipline, would you still spank? My guess is that some people would spank because they are angry at the time, and it is an anger release mechanism (but this is a poor reason to spank). That group notwithstanding, I suspect most people don’t like to spank, and would prefer an alternative method. I firmly believe such methods exist, and should be the primary form of discipline for young children.

At times my Son would act up knowing we are in public and expecting to get away with it or be given a bribe in order to stop.

What he did get was reprimanded right where he stood. Needless to say that game did not last long.

It depends, is your child truly crying out of confusion or manipulation?

I was spanked when I was growing up and I resent the actions that were taken against me. Physical violence is a knee-jerk reaction to a situation that people are losing control over.

“Physical violence is a knee-jerk reaction”
If it is physical violence.

I run through a red light. Crash my car. It was a very uncomfortable experience. I bet you I pay better attention in the future when crossing an intersection.

That is life. Seems we have to always learn the hard way.

@ChazMaz As an adult, you’re capable of knowing before you ever run the red light that doing so could have disastrous consequences. Do you have to learn the hard way?

I have three kids of my own and spent years working with children of all ages. Never once have I come across a child or a situation that could only be handled by spanking. There is always another way to get the message across, depending on the age of the child. It’s one of the most valuable things I learned, as a teacher, and has made me a much better parent. Thank God I don’t discipline the way my parents did, with a belt or a wooden spoon. My brother and I still did whatever we wanted, by the way.

@ChazMaz you’re saying people can only learn not to run a red light from the physical pain that comes from a resulting crash? Wow… Makes me wonder how I learned

@ChazMaz You bring up the point about consequences. You are right that there should be logical consequences to actions. But I fail to see how a spanking on the rear end is a logical consequence to any action. I used the example above about withholding book reading at night. Our nighttime routine is dinner, bath, books, lullabies, bed. We warn him if he is taking too long in the bath, or not getting into his pajamas that there won’t be time for books or lullabies (a logical consequence of taking too much time doing something else). Often as soon as we say, “OK, no books tonight,” he caves. But, for that one night, it is too late and we stick to our word. He is slowly learning that we mean what we say, and that logical consequences follow from his behavior.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir You’re underestimating kids. Kids are not stupid. They, in fact, do understand the difference between violence and spanking especially if you are explaining (as you should be) why they are being punished. We’re not talking about infants here…

@whitenoise Perhaps your language is the issue. You keep throwing in words that aren’t spanking. Spanking is a very specific thing. It doesn’t meant hitting, beating, punching, slapping, or any of those other “violent” terms you are equating with it. It is simply correctional. It is not supposed to be done when a parent is angry or out of control. All these misconceptions are causing parents to become weak and it is to the detriment of their children.. again.. imho. And.. as we’re really going nowhere with this I’ll leave this as my last word on the subject.

@whoever Some of you don’t even know what the word violence means! Go grab yourself a dictionary and tell me which definition you think is remotely close to spanking.. seriously. Then come back and tell me how violent I am.

@NaturalMineralWater

Merriam-Webster:
Violence: 1a: Exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse.

Are clinical studies (be them observational or otherwise) capable of controlling the factor of human individuality? No they are not. Has there been evidence presented which implies, as many have indicated, that spanking results in more common future acts of violence (i.e. records of assault) on the part of the person who had such done to them? Not that I am aware of.
I was spanked only occasionally as a child being that I was generally quite calm but when it occurred I felt humiliated and angry, so much so that I contemplated (and once unfortunately attempted to act on) hurting my parents severely, it was rare I would feel such rage. Despite this being spoken to or punished in other ways generally made me feel upset but in the way a punishment is intended to. With this stated I move onto the subject of my next eldest brother, who was punished in about every manner readily available to my parents from strict talking, seizing of toys and even a slight amount of therapy (my parents work in the mental health industry) to spankings and more aggressive punishments and allow me to clarify the facts that firstly the latter worked extraordinarily well and secondly that all the former punishments that were mentioned were followed through with and executed well. To those that disagree with spanking being used by anyone I would dare you to attempt to raise the brother in question because he literally laughed hysterically in the faces of my parents when punished in any manner outside of spanking, he saw it all as a game. To give an example (and a bizarre coincidence @ChazMaz) my brother was once “told off” for running into a road outside our house and then continued to do it because he saw it as a challenge and when spanked (after other punishments were used) he did stop.
Regarding the belief that spanking is violence I would generally agree. Violence is defined literally as rough or injurious physical force, action or treatment and that this is synonomous with the act of spanking. What is the purpose of this argument?
An argument often used against the act of/or lack of spanking is the long-term issues such an approach causes but is there any proof of this? Do spanked or unspanked children live more stable lives in the future? Do more attend university? Do more go to prison? Yes, perhaps there may be troubles along the way, perhaps unspanked child will become sheltered from the violence of the outside world, perhaps spanked children will become angry but one of the duties of parents or guardians is to noticed these issues and handle them accordingly.
Forgive me if I have rambled seemingly endlessly throughout this article but my basic point, to summarise, is that different children react to different punishments in different ways and contexts and it is the responsibility of those who are raising children to discover and make use of the punishments that work best at the correct times (within reason obviously).

@Nially_Bob: Looking for scientific evidence:
try this, or this or just this

Bam! Lurve to @Ivan.

@NaturalMineralWater Does that definition work for you? Last I checked, a spanking typically hurts.

I was spanked with a belts, switches, etc. It hurt, I cried and I feared my father and mother. I don’t have kids, but I don’t plan on spanking them.

@Nially_Bob I understand your statement about studies not factoring in individuality, but that is precisely the point. By comparing large groups of people, trends emerge that wouldn’t be obvious from looking at individual cases. I gave the example of smoking. Observational studies conclusively demonstrate an association with multiple types of cancer, but I’ve seen many 80–100 year old heavy smokers who don’t have cancer. Even though the relative risk of developing lung cancer is ~20, that doesn’t mean that all smokers will get cancer. Likewise, if studies show a higher relative risk of being more aggressive if you were spanked, it doesn’t mean all spankees will be aggressive as adults, or that those not spanked will not be aggressive.

@whitenoise Thank you for your counter evidence. I may have read the ‘ten myths’ article when discussing this topic previously as it seems familiar but the others are new to me.
The aforementioned second article discusses ten myths regarding spanking which I generally agree with and am finding difficult to refute. Something that did grab my attention however was the following sentence, “the central reason for the first type of myth is “selective inattention,” whereby people do not pay attention to or remember the times when spanking fails to work”. Could this not also be true concerning non-physical punishments?
The first article seems valid based on superficial value (i’m not certain I can read the full paper without payment) and concludes that “when parents use corporal punishment to reduce ASB, the long-term effect tends to be the opposite”. This is also a prevalent belief in the first study of the many you guided me towards in your third and final link. What I primarily take issue with in this area is the fact that such has been allegedly proven (once again, it’s difficult to invalidate studies which cannot be accessed entirely) to be a tendency rather than an inevitable fact (@shilolo) and though I agree that tendencies should be heeded when considering punishments for your child (alongside every other variable that should occur) they should not be recognised as being indisputable as sometimes we and our children simply will not fit into these trends. If we were to all live our lives based upon tendencies then no person would drink alcohol (including artists and famous idols who were inspired by such and average people who have been made more confident by such and I am not only referring to when drinking it) as it has been proven to tend to lead to a higher number of crimes committed by the consumers. No one would eat unhealthy foods due to the tendency for it to cause obesity when unhealthy food, to be blunt, can make people happy at their lowest points.
My argument isn’t for or against spanking, it’s for moderation and against ultimatums. Remember, when witnessing the public spanking of a child, that this particular child in this particular context may be attaining far greater benefits from this punishment than ones own child would.

@Ivan Returning to the point I made in a previous comment, what is the purpose of arguing that spanking is synonomous with violence? I agree with your view on the matter but what does such prove? Do you believe that all acts of violence are inherently malicious?

@jeanna What you experienced was not a spank. I’m sorry you were hit that way.

@NaturalMineralWater I completely agree with you.

My parents are not violent people. They are the kindest people you could meet. I was spanked a handful of times, if that, as a toddler for the same reasons @cak mentioned. I didn’t turn into a violent person because of this.

I have also spanked my children a few times when they were toddlers. It was never out of anger. Guess what? My children are not violent. They are respected in the community for being helpful and kind. They have never been in or started a fight at school.

A spank is a slap on the behind. That’s it. It’s not a hit or a punch or abuse. I don’t go around telling people how to discipline their children. I’m not an abuser because I spanked my child a few times and I resent the implication.

To answer the question, I would never spank my children in public. The few times that I did have been in the privacy of my own home.

@Nially_Bob

Yes, I do. Regardless, I think most people understand that violence against children is wrong. This is why they attempt to jump through strange semantic hoops so they can get the word ‘spanking’ into some sort of strange limbo in which it doesn’t constitute as violence.

@Nially_Bob You are absolutely right that adults make poor decisions all the time (heavy drinking, smoking, unprotected sex, etc.) despite public health warnings that indicate the dangers of such activities. Public health is a constant struggle to improve peoples’ health. There is no magic switch to turn everyone into safe-driving, vegan, teetotalers, but the data has to be presented that smoking is very bad, as is excessive drinking (to use your examples). The problem is children don’t really have a choice in the matter. Spanking is an event thrust upon them, despite evidence that indicates it is detrimental to their health (as a population).

This whole notion of debating the consequences of spanking is ridiculous. If spanking children turned them all into Jesus, it would still be wrong.

@Ivan Injure or abuse? Yet again you waste my time. The idea of a spanking is not to injure or abuse.

@jeanna No. It doesn’t.

I agree @shilolo but what I am attempting to explain is that tendencies are not all that must be considered. I am a 19 year old who drinks regularly (being a student who lives in the UK) so am, in accordance with tendencies founded in studies, more prone to commit crimes but I nor many I know in similar situations have not done so and yes, it has helped people myself included. Drinking has improved my confidence in that when I began I noticed that when mildly drunk I acted more confident so felt I could act similarly when sober and so did, it also assists myself and many others socially. It’s about analysing and weighing the sacrifices and benefits of an action when performed on a certain person (be it yourself or another) in a certain context and then proceeding to handle each aspect accordingly should you choose to follow through with said action. Can you honestly state that there is no action you have performed in your life which was detrimental in evident ways yet improved you as a general person for the better?
“Spanking is an event thrust upon them, despite evidence that indicates it is detrimental to their health” – This is what I am arguing against. Spanking is not detrimental to childrens health, it tends to be detrimental to childrens health. Therefore, with this tendency in mind, it would seem rational that people are still permitted to spank their children should this tendency not be evident in them, that is, they act differently to spanking compared to the majority of children that were observed in the studies which we have discussed previously.
Based upon my understanding of violence, both as a term and a concept, I would respectfully disagree @Ivan. If someone were to attempt to thieve my wallet from me, not being especially combat-savvy, my first impulse would be to grab and punch the person. I would hold no sore feelings towards them, in honesty I may even pity their situation, but nonetheless fearing the loss of my wallet which contains many things I very much need I would perform an act of violence. I believe this is an example of non-malicious violence.
You state that violence against children is wrong as though it is a clear and inarguable fact going so far as to state that even if spanking were to cause all children to be “perfect” (I assume that was your intended meaning when referring to children as becoming Jesus) such would still be wrong. Why is this? What evidence do you have to prove it?

@NaturalMineralWater May I respectfully request that you stop ignoring Ivan and claiming that he is “wasting your time” as from what I have noticed he is presenting a civil and reasonable argument.

@NaturalMineralWater I don’t underestimate children, but that’s not the issue. I, for one, can’t imagine sitting my kid down to explain to him nicely why sometimes I have a temper I can’t control. I always explain to him why he’s being punished, why he is not allowed this or that. Somehow my punishments don’t include spanking. It is almost as if I choose how to teach my kids a lesson

@Nially_Bob

I believe it is wrong to physically harm anyone. I’m not pretending that my morality is objective truth.

@Ivan I had no intention of implying such and I apologise if I have done so. I simply wished to clarify the foundation of your perspective on this moral issue.
May I ask what has led you to believe it is wrong to physically harm anyone? Do you believe it is reasonable in self-defence?

My morality is derived from empathy and sympathy. I know that I don’t like being hurt, so I should not hurt others. We simply live and then we die; at the very least, our lives should contain as little suffering as possible. To physically harm someone is to unnecessarily make them suffer, even if it is to a small extent or for a short amount of time. No, I do not believe that violence is reasonable in self-defense. There are always other, non-violent solutions to any problem. Those should be preferred. Often, one resorts to violence because they are unable to come up with those alternative.s

I’m aware that they are cliché situations to illustrate in this argument but what about when being mugged or attacked? Do you not think that violence can be justified until you are safely capable of running from the situation? I agree somewhat with your belief that there are always non-violent solutions to a problem in that a counter-example does not occur to me, however is there no circumstance in which violence is one of the best available options? Additionally, do you not think it fair that people shall be scared in some circumstances and so may act violently as an effect of this fear?
On a slightly more incidental note, is it your opinion that suffering does not possess beneficial functions?

“is there no circumstance in which violence is one of the best available options?”

I don’t necessarily care what the “best” solution is. I care what the most practical, convenient, and efficient solution is that causes no harm.

“do you not think it fair that people shall be scared in some circumstances and so may act violently as an effect of this fear?”

Sure, fear (and other emotions) cloud our ability to reason properly. It’s understandable, but not necessarily defensible.

“is it your opinion that suffering does not possess beneficial functions?”

On some sort of evolutionary level? Sure. The old-fashioned notion that being abused is “good for character” is pretty ridiculous though, in my opinion.

Alright @Ivan here is a scenario for you. Someone has broken into your house and you walk in on them, seeing that they are caught they proceed to attack and beat you (possibly trying to kill you) what do you do? I am giving you ample time (time that would not be available in the moment) to figure out a non violent solution to save your life.

OK, J0E, here is a scenario for you. Someone is trying to kill you and, for whatever reason, the only way to survive is to rape and mutilate 37 kittens and then consume their entrails.

You could come up with any number of “gotcha” scenarios. That isn’t the point. I never said that I myself am clever enough to come up with a non-violent solution. I am saying that there exists at least one, and it should be our goal to find and use it.

The difference however is my situation is a real situation that actually occurs, but nice question dodging.

Besides, if you (a very smart and clever person) can’t find a way how is anyone else?

the wis.dm kids, battling it out

You asked an irrelevant question, so I gave you the most relevant answer that I could. Pick any moral principle that you have, and you could come up with an infinite number of scenarios in which you would be tempted to go against it. This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about intent. I am saying that we should not settle for violent measures; we should instead attempt to seek out non-violent solutions. If someone were trying to kill me, perhaps I would use violence, who knows, I couldn’t tell you until it happened. I already said that violence in self-defense was understandable. I am not saying that punching a mugger is some cardinal sin that should be punished by death. I am saying that we should attempt to find a better solution. That’s all.

You said:

“No, I do not believe that violence is reasonable in self-defense.”

That is why I proposed the scenario.

“It’s understandable, but not necessarily defensible.”

It isn’t reasonable. That is, I do not believe that a violent solution is a reasonable one. Reason would invariably result in a non-violent solution. Movies and “24” have taught us that people use their brains to come up with really neat ways of hurting the bad guys. In the same manner, I think we should try to use our brains to come up with neat ways of resolving the problem non-violently.

Okay, understood. Now, taking into consideration that you are more intelligent than the average person (don’t say you aren’t) what are some of those non-violent solutions?

Heh, well I suppose my first instinct would be to run away and contact the authorities. It’s pretty difficult to speculate on what any possible solutions might be. Most of them would probably be context sensitive. In any case, if I were unfortunate enough to find myself in that situation, I think I would at least try to get out of the jam before breaking out a knife.

[/wis.dm kids “battle”]

“I don’t necessarily care what the “best” solution is. I care what the most practical, convenient, and efficient solution is that causes no harm.”
That is what I attempted to infer by the use of the term “best”. What if the most practical, convenient and efficient solution that would occur to an ordinary person involved violence? Why is the use of violence such a reprehensible concept despite being capable of assisting someone when used in moderation?
I understand your position on this subject Ivan but think it unreasonable to arrange ones life according to absolutes. Eventually one could be placed in any number of scenarios wherein violence could cause a far more beneficial resolution than any other action.
“Reason would invariably result in a non-violent solution.”
It is unreasonable to think that if I punch a man who’s approaching me aggressively and then run it is less probable that i’ll be harmed. You may claim that simply running would suffice but technically punching the man could daze him, making my escape considerably more effective.
“On some sort of evolutionary level? Sure. The old-fashioned notion that being abused is “good for character” is pretty ridiculous though, in my opinion.”
I concur. I have further thoughts on the subject of suffering which are based more in philosophy than general thought but I shan’t discuss them now for fear of going off-topic. Perhaps another time my friend.

“OK, J0E, here is a scenario for you. Someone is trying to kill you and, for whatever reason, the only way to survive is to rape and mutilate 37 kittens and then consume their entrails.”
It deeply disturbs me that i’m finding this question difficult to answer.

Long before the days of sensitivity training, a male cop in Washington DC told me in all earnestness that if I were ever attacked with rape being the intent, I would be better off to “lie back and enjoy it.” But the way I see it is, if anyone takes me on for any reason, they are going to bear the scars, I might not win but they will think they had been in a fight with a lion and to hell with the entrails of the 37 kittens.

I guess you, Ivan, are a “lie back and enjoy it” kinda guy too and certainly that is your privilege and I respect your right to it.

But it is my right to have an opinion as well and I’m still going to spank my kid if I ever have one, but don’t worry too much, at 64 it isn’t very bloody likely.

Your right to your opinion =/= your right to hit children.

I’m not against violence entirely – I will defend myself if need be. But I would only hit someone that isn’t 150 pounds lighter than me and 5 feet shorter.

“But I fail to see how a spanking on the rear end is a logical consequence to any action.”

If you beat you child silly, you are going too far. Spanking my child was more an act of drama, then to physically hurt. Every child is different.
The rare occasion my father came after me with the belt I count 2 times during my childhood. They were given while I was under the covers of my bed. It was the seriousness and his concern that got driven home.

My son, was an in your face child from the moment he could walk. I have been there done that. Again, each child is different as are adults. In his case he responded better to a more direct approach.
Live and let live, always finding a non violent solution to things. Sounds good and it is always a good goal to stride for. We are civilized, been saying that since the beginning of civilizations.
But you are kidding yourself. You still have to be prepared. Consequences are a part of life and they what they are. Sometimes they can be avoided, sometimes it is a bullet in the head.
It is admirable to try to find a peaceful solution and it is also knowing that what might appear as a violent solution might just prevent an occurrence of violence.
Sometimes the sacrifice of the few in order to save the many.
The trick is to know the difference.
Times are different from taking the child out back to the wood shed. “spare the rod, spoil the child”.

As a parent that raised a child. It was not the physical contact that was the intention. When having to resort to “spank” my child. It was well planned out, and a last resort. Even then, it was more bark then bite. This is not a justification for my actions. It is what it is. It is a fact and how the world turns.

Some people can be reasoned with, some need a spanking. That is life and that will never change.
You better know the difference between the two. Otherwise you are the one that will end up with the “spanking.”

@ChazMaz
This thread made me discuss this topic with some of my friends. Interestingly, none of our friends are spanking as a policy in raising their children. It is forbidden in a couple of European countries and will likely be outlawed in my country as well within the next decade.

I understand your point of view, but I think it is just culturally biased without a real base in educational and psychological science. The common theme in all scientific work that I could find boils down to spanking having many more effective and desireable alternatives. I think you have a dark view on the human psyche and its develoment if you feel you need corporal punishments in order to properly raise your child.

I am convinced though, from what you wrote, that any child would have a good parent in you and has good chances to turn out fine.

An inquiry that I would like to direct towards those who are against spanking is do you believe that a person can be raised to be an intelligent, courteous, happy and stable individual if they were spanked?

Of course…. I just feel spanking does not add positively to their chances.

From what I read on this thread, quite a number of people that impress me as intelligent, courteous happy and stable have been spanked in their youth.

That in itself is however not an argument in favor of spanking. I know of people that make a habit our of driving after drinking, that have never had an accident.

@whitenoise
“Of course…. I just feel spanking does not add positively to their chances.”
But what if it does? What if spanking a particular child in a particular context for a particular reason could benefit them in the long run more than a non-physical punishment? I have no intention of supporting the use of spanking on every child born with a backside but I do not believe it should be disregarded altogether as some have implied it should be.

@Nially_Bob In any large sample, there will be a normal distribution of outcomes. Some are at the positive tail (as you alluded) while others are at the negative tail. However, if you compare two large populations, the mean or median might tell you on average what the expected response would be. Within that framework, I believe that there is a greater chance of success and a reduced chance of harm with non-spanking alternatives.

@shilolo I agree. Now what if punishments outside of spanking do not deter a child from acting in a particular manner despite said punishments being used correctly and consistently?

@Nially_Bob I would say, try harder. We’ve all heard of or seen the show SuperNanny. Sometimes people just need to be instructed on what to do.

@Nially_Bob
One part of the issue is, that I have so far never seen a situation in which I couldn’t think of a better alternative than spanking.The other part is that damage that might occur will not show right away or not show to the parent at all.
With that in mind, I would choose to look for an alternative.

With respect to other punishments not working. trust me, spanking will likely not work then either. The reason I say that, is that a child gets used to pain quite quickly and you need to up the level to keep making impact. While doing that, the child will just disconnect from the parent. At least for the moment spanking.

I have been working in management and my experience is that behavioral change that is achieved strictly by applying pressure through force will not stick if you take away the pressure. The only way to truly invoke durable behavioral changes (in a healthy way) is to “sell it” to people. The same goes for children. Explanation combined with disciplining.

The best base for raising your children, I feel, is a bond of trust between parent and child. Nature has ‘preprogrammed’ children to be open for learning and teaching. There are many tricks – reward positive behavior disapprove misconduct. Reason and explain. And… corny as it sounds… love care and attention.

Another and final one: my wife and I have a guideline that we try to stick to: we pick our battles. When we say no, it is and will remain no. We do not intend to loose arguments with the children and that way loose our grounds. In order to do that we will not pick arguments on topics we cannot enforce. Diner for instance is one. We try to relax on forcing them to like what they eat. That is a battle one cannot win. Well, I guess you get my drift.

@Nially_Bob Have you ever seen a case where non-spanking methods were used consistently and correctly did not work within a reasonable time period? Not a day or two, but a couple of weeks? To me, a couple of weeks worth of effort to change behavior is more than a fair trade for not having to resort to hitting. In my experience, when parents try something new they become frustrated that it doesn’t work instantly and give up. If a kid is used to getting away with things or being spanked into line, he or she also has to have time to adapt and learn that testing limits always has the same, consistent results.

I’ve spent a total of 8 years working with other people’s children in settings where using physical punishment would mean immediately losing my job. Kids who had no discipline at home (there were parents who openly told us this because they thought their kids would learn discipline at daycare), kids who only behaved at home if they were spanked, and kids whose parents had to yell at them to get them to listen, learned very quickly to respect daycare rules even though the teachers did none of those things. They knew what would happen if they hurt others, threw things, didn’t listen, etc. At the most, it would take two weeks for kids who had run wild at home to settle in with the daycare rules and stop constantly testing us.

Another wayward youth in desperate need of a spanking

i’m nowhere near being a parent, but (following half of the above answers), i don’t consider spanking your kids once in awhile when they’re acting up abuse. just as there is a line between verbally disciplining and verbally abusing your child, there is also just as bold of a line between physical discipline and physical abuse.
that being said, i’d like to think that if i do have children, i would opt for ‘removing from thes scene of the crime’, as someone cleverly phrased it up there. i’d rather teach them from the very beginning that you shouldn’t take your anger out in a physical way.
but you know, it’s whatever works with your kid (so long as it doesn’t come close to the line of abuse, or anything like it). some kids don’t respond to talking it out, and some kids don’t respond to spanking.

my mum never spanked me, just yelled a lot. but man, i was a bratty kid.

Yikes, you are a regular Joan Crawford.

I hope you sleep with your bedroom door locked.

@lexisganz Clearly those techniques are working for you, since you appear to have a model child. Perhaps you’d consider writing a parenting book? By the way, what’s your name and address? I think CPS might be interested to hear about how you display your naked minor child to adults of the opposite sex.

Keeping human waste in cups around the home is a health hazard, by the way.

vigina lol I’m guessing that person was a troll..

you guys are all sad.why would u want to do such a horrible thing.u should be ashamed
of your selfs

Yes, Vigina, there is a Santa Claus. In the unlikely event we have another kid, I know what to name it now.

I have to be honest here, I would be one of the people looking at someone weird, I have before, I have also told them to stop and that I dont want to see it. I will also threaten with CPS if I see someone spank their kids.

No I would never spank my children in public or private, not anywhere, not ever!!

You will probably save the world!

I wish I was powerful enough to stop all kids from being spanked. :-)

I don’t have kids yet, but when I was young (like 2 -4) and we were out at the grocery store or the Mall, me and my sister would get smacked on the bottom a few times for being whiny or brats. Also, when I was in the fourth grade, I would go to my friend’s house after school and her mom would babysit me until my mom or dad got home from work and could pick me up (our parents were friends and we live close to them). While we were there, her mom would quiz us on spelling words for the next quiz or we would do homework for the first half hour. Once day, we were doing homework when someone rang on the doorbell. Her mom went to the door and while she was gone, my friend’s little brother grabbed the eraser and fooled around with it. My friend needed it, so she asked for the eraser. Her brother said no, and she told him to give her the eraser, to which he said “NO!”. She grabbed the eraser and tried to pull it away from him. At this point, he started screaming at the top of his lungs. I heard the door close, and her mom appeared in the doorway of the kitchen (we were working at the kitchen table), horribly livid. She grabbed my friend by the arm, went down on one knee, bent my friend over her knee and started spanking her. My friend was crying and pleading with her mom to listen, but her mom continued spanking her for about a minute then sent her up to her room. My friend ran crying to her room, then she got up, grabbed my friend’s little brother, and did the same thing, and sent him to his room. It wasn’t technically in public, but it was the first time I’d witnessed a spanking full on. Wierdest thing ever..

Hey. I have read this whole conversation and it got me interested. I’m glad to say that all of you are right. Parents raise their children differently than others and there is nothing wrong with that. Personally, I think that kids should only be spanked when it is necessary. Like if they broke something really valuable or did something wrong on purpose. That would be a reason to spank your. I’m not saying that the parents who don’t spank their kids is wrong, but not all kids will respond the same way as your children would. Some kids could care less if they go on a twenty minute timeout. I’m sixteen years old and I have seen both ways of punishment, and they both are effective. My mom sometimes spank me and my sister or sometimes she just take away privileges. When I see kids act up, get fits, or even act like brats, my friends and I say “I would get spanked for that”. Most parents who spank their kids aren’t being abusive, that’s how they parent, and it works for them. I said most because there are some parents beat their kids. Notice, I used two different words. “beating” your children and “spanking” your children are two different things. Beating a child is from out of frustration and anger within themselves. Spanking a child is out of love for a parent’s child because they want them to learn from their mistakes and not carry it over to adulthood. For those who don’t believe in public chastisement, you’re right. There is a time and a place for everything. It could be embarrassing to the child, but keep in mind that the child embarrassed the parent in front of everyone also. There are people that labels the parent as an abuser, AND there are people who would label the parent as “weak” because they didn’t do anything to their child for acting up. That’s right, even the parents who just leave the “scene of the crime” are labeled as “weak” by some people. I could care less if CPS gets involved because i know people in the CPS who are parents that does spank their kids. In similarity what is there to protect? By keeping the parent from doing his/her job of parenting? I applaud to those who find other solutions to discipline their kids, but respect the other parents who do spank their kids. Not all solutions work the same way for every single child.