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mattbrowne's avatar

If science proves some belief of Christianity wrong, then Christianity will have to change - Do you agree?

Asked by mattbrowne (31735points) July 31st, 2009

Here’s a recent Newsweek article on this subject:

Defenders of the Faith – Scientists who blast religion are hurting their own cause

(by Chris Mooney and Sheril Kirshenbaum)

As soon as Francis Collins, an evangelical Christian geneticist who headed up the pioneering Human Genome Project during the 1990s, was floated as the possible new director of the National Institutes of Health—he was officially named to the post on Wednesday—the criticisms began flying. Evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne of the University of Chicago, for one, said Collins is too public with his faith. Collins wrote a book called The Language of God, frequently talks about his religious conversion during medical school, and recently launched the BioLogos Foundation, which declares, “We believe that faith and science both lead to truth about God and creation.”

The critics, though, have it exactly backward: the United States needs more scientists like Collins—researchers who show by their prominence and their example that a good scientist can still retain religious beliefs. The stunning irony in the longstanding tension between science and religion in America is that many scientists who merely claim to be defending rationality from religious fundamentalism may actually be turning Americans off to science, doing more harm to their cause than good.

The poster boy for the so-called New Atheist movement today is biologist Richard Dawkins, author of the bestselling book, The God Delusion. He and other New Atheists attack faith without quarter, and insist that science and religion are fundamentally irreconcilable. In the process, they are helping to keep U.S. society polarized over science and likely helping to make it still harder for many religious believers to accept scientific findings in areas like evolution. Although the New Atheists are not so numerous, and much younger as a movement than their polar opposite—the Christian right—they’ve amassed a powerful following, especially online, and have sold millions of books by prosecuting a culture war in precisely the opposite direction from the one waged by Christian conservatives. Science is their watchword, but it has always been about much more than that. The New Atheist science blogger PZ Myers, for instance, has publicly desecrated a consecrated communion wafer, presumably taken from a Catholic mass, and put a picture of it, pierced by a rusty nail and thrown in the trash, on the Internet.

The New Atheists are unswerving in their conviction that irrational religion is the source of many of our ills—especially when it comes to the public’s poor understanding of science—and vociferous in their criticism of scientists who nevertheless retain religious belief, like Collins, even though Collins is himself a strong defender of evolution. But the truth is that religious scientists like Collins have the best chance of making religious Americans more accepting of modern science. Consider the survey evidence, which shows that while most Americans want to have both science and religion in their lives, they’ll only go so far to preserve the former at the expense of the latter. According to a 2006 Time magazine poll, for instance, 64 percent of Americans would hold on to a cherished religious belief even if science had disproved it. Many Americans who reject evolution—a stunning 46 percent, according to surveys—assuredly fall in this category.

The public’s willingness to reject science for religious reasons is certainly lamentable. But by arguing that science contradicts religion and makes it untenable, many atheists reinforce the very concerns that are keeping people from accepting science to begin with. Someone like Collins, by contrast, can convince those who think science conflicts with their beliefs that this needn’t be the case.

And Collins’s approach isn’t just good as a strategy to get the public to better appreciate science. The idea that science and religion can be compatible is strong on the intellectual merits as well. Granted, it depends how you define your terms: if your religion holds that Genesis must be read literally, then you are in direct conflict with scientific findings about the age of the Earth, the diversity of life on the planet, and so on. Yet if we consider religion more broadly—in its own considerable diversity—we find many sophisticated believers who’ve made a peace between their belief and the findings of modern science. It’s not just Collins; consider the words of the Dalai Lama: “If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change.”

Americans have serious problems with science, and religion is definitely part of the reason. But that doesn’t mean fighting religion, indiscriminately, is the answer. A far better approach is to work with religious believers to help them separate their personal religion from everybody’s shared science, and move toward a much needed middle ground. The New Atheists will hardly be pleased by the Collins choice, but that’s unpreventable and perhaps even to the good: science and atheism aren’t the same, and the former must always remain a broader, more inclusive category.

Mooney and Kirshenbaum, an atheist and an agnostic Jew, are the coauthors of the new book Unscientific America: How Scientific Illiteracy Threatens Our Future.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/206609

Any thoughts?

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131 Answers

Deepness's avatar

What is an agnostic Jew?

softtop67's avatar

Faith is believing in something that common sense tells you not to…it wont make a difference

samanthabarnum's avatar

Christianity is based on unreasonable faith in deities that have no probable cause of existing. Science has ALREADY proved Christianity is wrong, there was practically an epidemic of messiahs in that time that had similar stories to Jesus. People believe anything if they’re brainwashed strongly enough to believe it, and science won’t change that for these poor people.

samanthabarnum's avatar

@Deepness Jewish is also an ethnicity and a race of people. Therefore, one can be agnostic and a Jew.

ABoyNamedBoobs03's avatar

@samanthabarnum Judaism is a religion. Hebrew or Israeli is a race/nationality, if I’m not mistaken.

And to be honest, I’m an atheist, but you can’t say god certainly doesn’t exist, and you can’t really say there’s a good chance one doesn’t. It’s manly due to the nature of God in itself.

Deepness's avatar

@samanthabarnum Thanks. I didn’t know that. I thought Judaism was a religion. So now if you’re telling me it is also a race and ethnicity of people, then how did Sammy Davis Jr. get in?

samanthabarnum's avatar

@Deepness It’s a race of people, yes, and it’s also a religion. They’re two separate things with the same name.

bpeoples's avatar

Faith and science both serve very different purposes.

Faith = believing without evidence.
Science = evidence based observations, leading to conclusions.

They don’t have the same purpose or basis, so you really can’t go head to head with them. In my opinion.

Also: http://www.jews-for-jesus.org/

Zendo's avatar

Perhaps it is not Christianity that needs to be changing, Matt.

Deepness's avatar

@samanthabarnum I’m sorry. I don’t think I follow but let me try. So Sammy Davis Jr. chose the religion, not the race? Where does the race come from? What country? Also, if a person is an agnostic Jew, then it means he/she is from the race of Jews but doesn’t share the belief of Jews?

@bpeoples I’ll never understand the Jews4Jesus agenda. According to history, was it not the Jews who influenced the Romans to crucify Jesus?

ABoyNamedBoobs03's avatar

I stand corrected
Jew

Noun

1. a person whose religion is Judaism
2. a descendant of the ancient Hebrews [Hebrew yehūdāh Judah]

Here

Fly's avatar

I disagree. Science proving Christianity wrong will have no effect on the religion. In fact, Christianity has already been logically disproved multiple times, yet nothing. Christians will change nothing, they will simply continue to dismiss the scientific proof, stating that the Bible and their faith is the only evidence that they need to prove their beliefs.

samanthabarnum's avatar

@Deepness Yes, he chose the religion. You can choose your religion on a whim, but your race will never change.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 There you go, you answered my reply to you already. :)

ragingloli's avatar

that is what should happen in a perfect world.
however in reality, christianity more often than not simply rejects the science that contradicts their beliefs, see flat earth society, intelligent design, creationism, giordano bruno, galileo galilei.

ABoyNamedBoobs03's avatar

it’s an ideological problem that Christians most likely will never understand about Atheists and Atheist will never understand about Christians. The likelihood of God being disproved is extremely little, simply because the accepted notion that God can do anything, you can’t argue against that, because essentially even if you say “ladies and gentlemen, we’ve searched til the edge of the universe, several dimensions and we’ve conclusively found no God”
“Oh, well… God created a separate dimension that humans can’t enter… he can do that, because he’s God…”
Obviously that’s an exaggerated example, but the general message is you can’t really disprove the God theory.

se_ven's avatar

@bpeoples everyone demonstrates Faith in everyday life. You eat food a restaurants don’t you? Therefore you have faith that the cooks have clean hands, that they didn’t spit in your food, that what you are being served isn’t going to kill you.

Faith isn’t believing without evidence, that is why it is often referred to as a ‘leap of faith’

bpeoples's avatar

@se_ven It is believing without evidence. I don’t have any evidence (other than the food safety inspector’s report) that the restaurant is clean.

se_ven's avatar

I have trouble believing evolution as a plausible theory to our existence. It doesn’t make sense to me to look at the intricacies of life and credit them to random chance and ‘natural’ phenomenon.

If you were to take the pieces of a watch and put them in a box, how long would you have to shake that box in order to get a working watch? (In my opinion, evolution presents a less believable situation)

The biggest thing evolution and such have going for them is that they remove God from the equation. We in our fallen nature desire to be gods and do not want to be subject to anything else.

se_ven's avatar

@bpeoples but you do have the experience of eating there before, of seeing other people leave alive, and the knowledge that if people started getting sick from the food, no one would eat there and they would go out of business…

galileogirl's avatar

I find it interesting that there are as many people who are trying to convince us that religion, especially Christianity, is a lie as there are people who are trying to convince us us that the Bible is the literal truth.

Will I deny Christianity if it is proved virgin birth is impossible? I actually am not vested in the virgin mother story but if sharks can do it, why not people. Do I believe in papel infallibilty? Hell no, anymore than I believe that Billy Graham, Jim Bakker, or Pat Robertson are superior to me in their teachings. Two people made from earth populating the world? A big boat filled with all the creatures on earth? A vengeful male entity who carpet bombs Egypt with plagues? A god that can be appeased by killing animals? no, No, NO, HELL NO!

But I do believe in the benefit of storytelling as a teaching tool. It doesn’t matter if Christian teachings are scientifically possible. The core of Christianity about how we should treat each other with love and respect, how the strong should help weak etc are what I believe and I don’t think science can prove me wrong.

Evilbento's avatar

Science or religion, pick your poison. We live different lifes, and we make different choices, get over that so we can all move forward instead of wasting time on trying to change one another.

Facade's avatar

(I didn’t read any of that but am going off you initial question)

Christianity is about beliefs. A Christian shouldn’t care what science has to say about their beliefs

Allie's avatar

I don’t think they would. Christianity, or any religion for that matter, is a belief. People believe all kinds of things without any sort of evidence, why should religion be different? I’m sure there are some people who believe that giraffes are born purple. Science shows this is not the case, but that doesn’t mean they have to change what they believe.

Fly's avatar

@se_ven I agree with @bpeoples. I don’t have faith in a restaurant restaurant just because I’m willing to eat there. There is technically no proof that the restaurant, and my food, is safe and clean. Just because people aren’t getting sick doesn’t mean that the food is sanitary. If someone who wasn’t sick spat in your food, you would not get sick, and you probably wouldn’t even know it was there. If someone put dandruff on your food instead of Parmesan, you wouldn’t get sick, and you, again, would most likely never know. We hope that nothing like these instances would happen, but we have no proof they they don’t and therefore don’t have any sort of faith in the restaurant. That faith would be blind.

se_ven's avatar

@Fly but if you new those things for a fact would you eat the food?

EDIT: It does sound like you are saying you do possess faith in the restaurant…

DominicX's avatar

What about the people who have had experiences that prove to them that religion is valid? Why is that any less valid than paranormal experiences? I wouldn’t be surprised if half the people here who said Christianity has been proven false have had some sort of paranormal experience or believe in ghosts, something that here is no scientific evidence for.

Also, I don’t think religion really claims to be scientific; it doesn’t really make any scientific claims, except I guess the omission of anything about dinosaurs or the fact that earth is round.

cwilbur's avatar

“Christianity” is a really big area. There are things that some Christians believe that have already been disproven by science, and yet those Christians continue to believe them.

So I’d say that what will happen is the same thing as what has been happening for the past two thousand years: when science proves something that is in conflict with religious dogma, some people will ignore the science, some people will ignore the dogma, and some people will try to figure out how to reconcile the dogma and the scientific evidence—usually by changing the dogma.

se_ven's avatar

@cwilbur what if the science was wrong? I’ve done experiments, had theories, and done analysis on many things, and frankly there are times when a mistake is made and an incorrect result happens later to be found out.

Bri_L's avatar

@se_ven – you can actually witness cellular mitosis. You can watch creatures learn how to use tools. Animals adapt to the advances of man. Monkeys certainly didn’t know how to cope with what they do in modern India. These are things that take place in real time. In mans life.

When you look at how long the earth has been around I find it very easy to believe in evolution. And I believe in God.

Bri_L's avatar

@se_ven – Oh and Welcome to to Fluther. Sorry I forgot that.

barumonkey's avatar

@se_ven: Prove that the science was wrong, and science will change. It takes proofs seriously.

dalepetrie's avatar

Historically speaking, what is accepted by a church as gospel will change eventually if science disproves something taken as fact by the church. Look at Galileo….he proved the Earth was not the center of the universe, and in his day, the church did believe it was, so even though it took 500 years for the church to apologize for what they did to him, within 100 years or so of his discovery, the “official” answers had to change and adapt to fit with new knowledge.

However, fundamentalism will NEVER change…fundamentalists believe in a literal interpretation of the bible being essentially written BY God himself, so even though we know the Universe is over 13 billion years old, according to the Bible it’s 6,000 years old. So, the Vatican won’t be saying that the Earth is 6k years old, but about 10% or so of Americans will believe that until the day they die.

se_ven's avatar

@Bri_L oh, micro evolution is very plausible and noticeable…just look at all the different breeds of dogs. but no one has ever witnessed the creation of a new species that is able to replicate itself (i.e. Donkey + Horse = Mule which can’t reproduce)

Thanks for the Welcome ;)

markyy's avatar

Having faith is such a big part of humanity, that I’m not sure how one could exist without the other. By that I mean, in order for that change to happen it would have to be such a mindboggling huge discovery. I don’t think something like that can ever be achieved by a single piece of information/theory. Unless you are thinking of some pill that changes brainwave patterns or something like that I just don’t see it happening.

This message was brought to you by: someone who considers himself agnostic or atheist, depending on his mood.

barumonkey's avatar

@se_ven: Here comes the science! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation
“Observed examples of each kind of speciation are provided throughout.”

Bri_L's avatar

@se_ven – man’s presence on the earth is barely a blip in its life.

There are more species of insects alone, undiscovered than all the animals that have been named combined.

You can say “no one has witnessed” it. You cannot say it has not happened. Given what we have witnessed occurring naturally, not by crossbreeding, you can say with almost statistical certainty that it has.

Fly's avatar

@se_ven I am not saying at all that I have faith in the restaurant. Hope is not faith.
No, if I knew the restaurant did those things, of course I would not eat there, because there is proof that I should not. This is not faith that the restaurant is unsanitary, either. With proof, it becomes fact, not faith.

The actual dictionary definitions:
Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof
Hope: to have a desire with anticipation
Fact: a piece of information presented as having reality

By hoping that the restaurant does not do such things to my food, I eat there, still knowing that there is a possibility that such things could happen. Speaking as an agnostic, this is clearly not faith- I do not have faith that the restaurant is good, nor that it is not. I know that it could be bad, and I know that it could be good, but I do not have faith one way or the other. I hope for the better, but I have no faith in the restaurant whatsoever. I do not believe that the restaurant will be good nor bad, and I therefore have no faith in the matter.

mattbrowne's avatar

There’s a difference between some belief of Christianity and Christianity. There is hard evidence that science has proved some belief of Christianity to be right (1) and some to be wrong (2) and some remains open (3).

Here are some examples:

(1) Our world has a beginning, nonviolent action can drive change (Sermon on the Mount)
(2) Eve is made from a rib of Eve, Methuselah died at age 969
(3) God exists, God created the orderly biophilic universe

ragingloli's avatar

saying “it did not happen” purely because no one has witnessed it, would invalidate the entire field of forensics.

se_ven's avatar

@Fly from Wikipedia: Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing…not resting on logical proof or material evidence.

Not resting means there is some there…

barumonkey's avatar

@se_ven: I read “not resting” as meaning there does not have to be any there. There may or may not be proof, but any proof is considered irrelevant.

se_ven's avatar

@barumonkey I agree with you for the most part and truly that is the case for many people. But that doesn’t mean Faith can’t contain proof…

Fly's avatar

@se_ven, I read “not resting” as @barumonkey did; It means that there may or may not be some opposing fact, but if there is, it is ignored, meaning that no fact is used to support faith. According to both the Merriam-Webster definition and that of Wikipedia, faith does not need fact to exist. If you have “complete trust/faith” or “firm belief” in someone or something, fact would be completely irrelevant and would not compel you to have faith one way or another

whitenoise's avatar

@se_ven The nanulak seems to be one of your “new species that is able to replicate itself (i.e. Donkey + Horse = Mule which can’t reproduce)”.

The nanulak seems likely able to reproduce, like female tigons. The nanulak is hybrid that is now seen in the wild, though.

barumonkey's avatar

@se_ven: Correct. Faith can be supported by proof. But, for it to be called faith, there has to be at least one part of it that has not (yet) been proven.

whitenoise's avatar

I am afraid that you are right. Scientists that are too harsh on religion may create so much aversion, they kind of “shoot themselves in the foot”. People quite often rather cling to their own ideas, no matter how silly, than being forced to accept those of others.

Atheists should cross the bridge toward people of religion, to slowly lead them back to the realm of the sane. ;-)

se_ven's avatar

@Fly I think we are saying the same thing. Faith can contain no proof or some proof, but it represents something that can’t be known for sure.

I don’t mean to argue for the sake of arguing, it’s just that it bothers me that many people will not even consider Christianity because they think you have to check logic at the door. But this has always been an issue with the Christian faith:

1 Corinthians 1:23 “but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness”

Gundark's avatar

@softtop67 If faith only applies when believing in unreasonable things, then it’s worthless. There are people that have that kind of faith, but fortunately that’s not the whole story.

Faith is also believing in things that are perfectly reasonable, but that haven’t been proven, and perhaps can’t be proven. For instance, I have faith that my chair isn’t going to drop me on the floor every morning when I sit on it. In fact, I have so much faith in that fact, that i have never once checked under the chair before I sat on it. Can I prove that the chair won’t collapse? Maybe, and maybe not, but experience tells me that it is a reasonable belief, and so I choose to have faith in the chair.

This is exactly the opposite of the kind of faith you are talking about—it is faith based on common sense, and developed by experience. It is a very common type of faith, which applies to all kinds of unproved and unprovable things; theories of science, economics, athletics, and yes, even some religious beliefs. I would even argue that human being rely heavily on this kind of faith to get along in life; it would be impractical to prove the worthiness of every chair before I sit on it, or every economic theory before I buy something, or that gravity will not suddenly reverse before I leave the house. People who lose this kind of everyday faith quickly become paranoid, and non-functional.

Fly's avatar

@se_ven I think we are saying something similar, but not quite. I say that faith represents a belief that can’t be proven, even if it does have an original fact or two that ignites the belief.

Either way, we should end the conversation because we’re clearly getting nowhere with each other.

However, I would just like to respond to your last few statements, that “many people will not even consider Christianity because they think you have to check logic at the door.” Personally, I was born into a family where my mother was Christian and my father was Jewish. I have experienced both religions and in fact still find religion very interesting. I used to pray every night before dinner and bedtime when I was very young. I used to believe and have faith in religion and God. That being said, having experience those things, I chose later in life to be agnostic because of my lack of belief and faith. A majority of people who are agnostic or atheists were actually not raised that way, and started of as Christians, Jews, Catholics, etc., and then became so later in life. I just wanted to point out that a lot of people including myself did consider Christianity and other religions, but chose the path that’s right for us.

se_ven's avatar

@Fly I agree, no sense in arguing semantics ;)

I understand where you come from and how many people growing up in religion abandon it. I think a big part of it is because of discussions like this, they feel like they can’t answer the arguments and that they should be able to. I know I have felt that way before, and still do at times. That is when our friend faith comes into play

Thanks for taking the interest in discussing!

The_Compassionate_Heretic's avatar

Science is entirely quantifiable. It’d be foolish to discount scientific discovery.

troym333's avatar

I agree, christianity should change. It should be banned from being practiced on this earth and let science prevail. Thus creating a more scientific futuristic society.

I’m only part athiest

cbloom8's avatar

Christianity will have to change if it is to stay reputable and popularly perceived as correct, but that won’t likely happen. It has already rejected countless scientific discoveries, thus in my opinion, recking it’s credibility.

ShanEnri's avatar

I think it would depend on the christian and his/her beliefs. Some would throw it out, no matter what proof they have. Others will conveniently overlook it. Then there are those like me, not sure what to make of it so we neither accept nor reject it!

Ivan's avatar

I’m pretty sure that bats aren’t birds and that pi is not equal to 3. So… no.

In response to the column, I don’t think the issue with Collins is his religion. The issue is that he justifies unscientific beliefs with his religion. If Collins were simply an established scientist who happened to be Christian, no one would have any trouble with it, regardless of how often he talked about it. Many atheists, myself included, like to cite examples such as Ken Miller. These are people who are very religious individuals, but they don’t let their religion hinder their science, and they don’t use their religion to justify unscientific beliefs.

@Facade

Maybe you don’t care whether or not your beliefs are true, but I do.

fireside's avatar

The fourth teaching of Bahá‘u’lláh is the agreement of religion and science. God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 239)

erniefernandez's avatar

Christianity, in short, does not have to do shit. Individual Christians place their “faith” before reason, or their reason before their “faith”, and each of their faiths is actually different; even within a denomination.

Your question is just too general to answer.

bcstrummer's avatar

1st:god isn’t real, and even if he did exist he died along time ago, same with Jesus, so stop idolizing them like michael Jackson, 2: there are flaws in every religion, that’s why I don’t believe in any, it’s pointless, 3: Religion should never mix with anything, it’s already consumed politics and government and that sparked different beliefs and war, so I guess my answer is: no one should believe in god and should only believe in themselves, and then will world peace and all negativity cease

erniefernandez's avatar

@bcstrummer Believe in your self? How so?

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

From the article:
“64 percent of Americans would hold on to a cherished religious belief even if science had disproved it.”

It’s not just a religious phenomenon. It’s a people phenomenon. Nobody likes to have their comfort zone tampered with. Many scientists hold on to cherished beliefs even when science disproves it.

From the article:
“Many Americans who reject evolution—a stunning 46 percent, according to surveys—assuredly fall in this category.”

Such a broad term “evolution”... The question is no longer IF it happens. The questions revolve around the WAY it happens. People reject “evolution” because they don’t understand it. To understand it, they must ask questions. Many scientists don’t want to be questioned and thus depict their theories as untouchable. Therein lies the rift, floating on a raft of arrogance. I defer to the distinguished gentleman known as Dawkins. He certainly doesn’t want to answer any of my questions, and he will tout my stupidity for even considering such an offense.

From the article:
“He and other New Atheists attack faith without quarter, and insist that science and religion are fundamentally irreconcilable. In the process, they are helping to keep U.S. society polarized…”

Extremism is an ugly thing. One calls the other stupid, the other counters with judgmental self righteous accusations of sinners and eternal damnation. I have every “faith” that “evolution” will lead all extremists down the path of extinction one day soon enough. I hope my friends here can witness that along with me.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Oh I forgot to answer the question…

NO! Christianity would not “have” to change. Science does not control Christianity.

But YES! Christianity “should” change based upon scientific evidence. But that’s a bit of a sloped question Matt. Christianity has changed plenty of times already, and without the help of science.

I personally would like to see Christianity return to its original form before religion got a hold of it. Before religion called it Christianity, it was known as “The Way”. Christ and the disciples were NOT Christians. They were followers of The Way. I don’t know how it turned into this mess.

mattbrowne's avatar

It’s Saturday and now I’ve got a little more time to reply to some of the comments individually.

@softtop67 and @bpeoples – My understanding of faith is believing in something that common sense tells you to do, but can’t necessarily be proved by science. For example: I have faith that the physical laws are the same next year. Science can’t prove this and we have to wait till next year to find out. I believe in an orderly biophilic universe created by God and to me this is common sense. I also have faith in Jesus Christ and his teachings. To me it’s common sense to evolve beyond the ‘eye for an eye’ principle. Vicious circles of violence can be interrupted. To me that is common sense. There’s a lot of evidence made by social scientists that nonviolent action can drive change.

mattbrowne's avatar

@ragingloli – What is the percentage of Christians and Christian leaders in the year who

(1) support the flat earth society
(2) promote intelligent design and creationism
(3) profess that Galileo Galilei was wrong ?

And I mean worldwide and not just the US (because the US seems to have an above average percentage of scientific illiteracy and the situation is getting worse). There are about 2.1 billion Christians worldwide. You will find that the percentages are very low, especially for (1) and (3).

So, in reality, Christianity more often than not, simply rejects interpretations of the bible that contradicts science. As science has proved some belief of Christianity wrong, this already triggered Christianity to change. Is there any Pope in the 20th century who thought the Earth was flat?

mattbrowne's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies – You said ‘before religion called it Christianity, it was known as “The Way”. Christ and the disciples were NOT Christians.’ This is true. But you forgot to mention that they were Jews, followers of slowly changing Judaism.

mattbrowne's avatar

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 – Well, I think up to a point educated atheists and educated christians are capable of understanding each other. It seems that both fanatic dogmatic atheists and fanatic dogmatic christians are locked into their belief system and rigorous mindset and are unable to open their minds for other interpretations of the universe and other ways of life. I agree that scientifically speaking no one is able to disprove God. At the same time no one will ever be able to prove the existence of God.

mattbrowne's avatar

@se_ven – Evolution is a scientific fact and the evidence is overwhelming. Evolution is Gods ways to create and change living organisms. However the Darwinian principles of mutation and selection can’t scientifically explain abiogenesis. There must be other scientific principles we haven’t discovered yet.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Facade – A Christian shouldn’t care what science has to say about their beliefs? I couldn’t disagree with you more. Christians who don’t care have chosen a very dangerous path in their lives. And of course this attitude contributes to the increasing scientific illiteracy which can potentially kill thousands and millions of people. Here are some examples:

Tsunamis and the swine flu are created because people are sinful. Let’s pray and not be sinful and God will send no tsunamis and no swine flu. This is a core principle of the Hebrew bible. I say we should also look at what science has to say and install tsunami warning systems and continue the development of the H1N1 vaccine.

mattbrowne's avatar

@fireside – Christians can learn a lot from the Bahai !

galileogirl's avatar

I think The Way is Daoism which is not an antecedent of Christianity.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@galileogirl

True of Daoism, but not necessarily about Christianity. My theory is that Christ went to Asia to either learn or teach in the missing thirteen years of his life in the bible. He also warned the disciples to avoid Asia in their travels.

The earliest form of Christianity was known as “The Way”.
The term Christianity is not in the bible. Neither is the word Rapture.

(Acts 9:2)
...and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.”

(Acts 19:9)
“But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.”

(Acts 19:23)
“About that time there arose a great disturbance about the Way.”

(Acts 22:4)
“I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison,”

(Acts 24:14)
“However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,”

(Acts 24:22)
“Then Felix, who was well acquainted with the Way, adjourned the proceedings. “When Lysias the commander comes,” he said, “I will decide your case.”

galileogirl's avatar

1, It sounds like these biblical writers are anti- rather than pro-Dao what with the persecuting imprisonong and name calling. And that’s no way to treat Grandpa’s religion.

2. The Three Jewels, compassion, moderation and humility.are at the core of most religions but many modern Christians would faint at the thought of the practical applications “abstention from aggressive war and capital punishment”, “absolute simplicity of living”, and “refusal to assert active authority”.-Absolute opposite belief systems

3. The Dao view of sex would give the traditional church lady a stroke.

4. Damascus is a long way from Eastern Asia and although the principles of what we call Daoism in various forms arose in the Sheng dynasty it really became popular and widespread in the 1st century CE, way to late to be a forerunner to either Judaism or Christianity

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@galileogirl

You are making the comparison between Daoism and Christianity.

I am making the comparison between Daoism and The Way.

I do not compare Judaism or Christianity to Daoism.

@galileogirl said:
”...it really became popular and widespread in the 1st century CE, way to late to be a forerunner…”

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies said:
“My theory is that Christ went to Asia to either learn or teach in the missing thirteen years of his life in the bible.”

Works for me.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@galileogirl said:
”...these biblical writers are anti- rather than pro-Dao what with the persecuting imprisonong and name calling.”

They were victims of it, not causing it.

@galileogirl said:
“The Three Jewels, compassion, moderation and humility are at the core of most religions…“abstention from aggressive war and capital punishment”, “absolute simplicity of living”, and “refusal to assert active authority”

That’s what Christ taught. I can’t help what the Christians have misinterpreted.

galileogirl's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Then what were all the Biblical quotes about when you are comparing Daoism and The Way, which is another name for Daoism? I was merely responding to your assertion that Christianity came from The Way when the first followers of Christ and Christ himself were practicing Jews.

The original question was about proving the truth of Christian dogma and I was merely pointing out that modern Christian beliefs often have little to do with either the Christ’s teachings or Daoism. I certainly never blamed you for 2000 years of mistranslation and misinterpretation as well as downright sophistry.

However when the subject is scattered and muddled thinking, well. . .

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@galileogirl said:
“Then what were all the Biblical quotes about..?”

I made an assertion, you challenged, I supported my assertion with scriptural evidence.

@galileogirl said:
”...the first followers of Christ and Christ himself were practicing Jews.”

That is an unwittingly loaded assertion and half truth. Their “Judaism” was post Messianic practice, directly challenging animal sacrifice, circumcision, and the Law of Moses as no longer needed. “Eye for and Eye” was replaced by “Love your Enemies”. The fulfillment of Messianic prophecy overturned the mandate to adhere to the current Law of Moses standards (which had been overrun with corruption by the Pharisees with temple prostitutes and over taxation for sin, promoting the Temple as a marketplace).

When Christ said that he did not come to replace the Law, but that he came instead to fulfill the Law, he was NOT talking about the Law of Moses. He spoke of the Law of God, that being the 10 Commandments. He gave us a new commandment that fulfilled all the others. To “love one another”.

You are correct to note the truancy of modern Christianity. It’s been going on since Christ’s death. Fundamentalist Christians have become a parody of the Jewish Pharisees that they mock with judgmental self righteousness, name it and claim it love of wealth, justification of power and war in the name of G…, and countless hypocrisy against innocent children and faithful tithing followers.

Modern Christianity wants you to believe that Jesus came to make bad people turn good. That is a lie. Jesus came so that dead people could live. The spiritually dead could find spiritual life.

As to the point of the original question…

We don’t need science to “prove” that Christianity is wrong. The Bible does that just fine on its own. Christ never once claimed to be God, nor the son of God. Others have said those things about him and that notion has been taken completely out of context. The Virgin birth, the miracles, the Resurrection… all completely irrelevant. That is the dogma of Christianity and only serves the specious desires of men. It diverts attention away from the true message of Christ.

Christ said one thing about who he was…

“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life”

So accept the Way of Truth and Live.

What could possibly be more Daoist?

galileogirl's avatar

Boy you are the master of the half-truth and misquote aren’t you. From the beginning I stated that many religions have the same core values at their inception. That certanly does not prove that one religion is the forerunner of the other especially if they were contemporaneous, from cultures on opposite sides of the world.

τον τρόπο με τον does not equal 道.

As for your sophistry and logic—-(giant raspberry)

troym333's avatar

I have to crown RealEyesRealizeRealLies the champion and king atheist.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@galileogirl

What half-truth have I spoken?

Where have I misquoted you?

Where have I claimed to prove anything?

What does ”τον τρόπο με τον does not equal 道” mean?

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@troym333

What makes you believe that I’m an atheist?

ralfe's avatar

There is a misconception that science is some sort of unified whole. “If science proves…. ” is said as though the scientific community are some sort of united pillar of intellectual strength. This is not the case. For example, regarding elements of religion, there are groups within the scientific community who are evolutionists, and then there are those who are of the intelligent design faction. I have read research papers presented by both sides, and it cannot be said that one is less scientifically sound than the other.

My personal view is that science will always be hindered by fear of truth, whatever that truth may be. As humans, we have a fear of the unknown. It is assumed that such fears are countered by the scientific method. However, this is not the case.

Critter38's avatar

“I have read research papers presented by both sides, and it cannot be said that one is less scientifically sound than the other.”

Actually I am more than happy to state that ID is not science as it does not come even remotely close to being scientifically sound. Science requires testable and refutable hypotheses. ID cannot be refuted because it hinges on the existence of a being which could alter and or be above and beyond natural laws. As such although it could hypotehtically be demonstrated to be true, it cannot be demonstrated to be fase, because an unknown intelligent designer can be posited to be capable of anything. So it is simply not science. It fails at the most fundamental level. So would you mind providing a single scientific paper from a peer reviewed scientific journal which resorts to ID (just to pre-empt any sillyness, the Journal of Creation is not a scientific journal).

Just as a side note, the Dover ruling concluded this as well. ID is just creationism dressed in a labcoat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

“My personal view is that science will always be hindered by fear of truth, whatever that truth may be.”

Well perhaps you don’t have enough of an understanding of the scientific process or what drives scientists. Science is fundamentally driven by the pursuit of reality. In other words, we try to approximate truth every time we apply the scientific method, which in its modern form is honed to remove personal bias (or fear of truth if you like), as much as possible from result outcomes. And this is just the first step, then comes peer review, challenge, independent supportive or contradictory evidence, further replication, perhaps quantitative synthesis etc. etc. etc.

Science is the best antithesis of “fear of truth” we have, unless you define truth as that which is unsupported by scientific evidence.

mattbrowne's avatar

I noticed a slight mistake in my earlier post. Here’s the correct version:

There’s a difference between some belief of Christianity and Christianity. There is hard evidence that science has proved some belief of Christianity to be right (1) and some to be wrong (2) and some remain open (3).

Here are some examples:

(1) Our world has a beginning, nonviolent action can drive change (Sermon on the Mount)
(2) Eve is made from a rib of Adam, Methuselah died at age 969
(3) God exists, God created the orderly biophilic universe

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@Critter38

I understand your reservations on ID and Creationism. What is your impression of Intelligent Evolution?

Critter38's avatar

Could you specify what you mean by intelligent evolution? Without knowing more it sounds like an oxymoron.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@Critter38

First, a quick word about dogma. Unfortunately the ID/Creationist crowd are quickly rallying around this term “Intelligent Evolution” in hope of salvaging their previously rejected positions. This will easily taint the essence of IE to those who are wary of them sneaking in to the game again. ID/Creationists are much too eager to foist the traditional fundamentalist notions of God and Jesus Christ upon this science, thus having the effect of throwing the baby out with the bath water. This creates a dogmatic bias on both sides of the argument, illustrating the automatic rejection from any scientific principle put forth that happens to be supported by ID/Creationists, and also for ID/Creationists to jump to conclusions on science that they may not fully understand. I personally don’t feel they typically understand their own religious teachings, much less the intricacies of Intelligent Evolution.

The reasonable person will look past the unjustified references to God and Jesus Christ, and consider the evidence for what it actually is based upon biology, information theory, and linguistics alone. Intelligent Evolution will ultimately force ID/Creationists to question their dogmatic approach to understanding what a God actually is, while also forcing Darwinists to question their dogmatic approach to understanding what Information actually is.

Beyond the dogma, the core principles of Intelligent Evolution are two fold. The first requests the biologist to actually read deeply into the writings of Charles Darwin himself, revealing that he was not so against the idea of an ultimate creator, and that he never mentioned properties of random mutation to explain anything. The information sciences are rapidly sending the dogmatic concept of random mutation on its way to extinction, noting it as a placeholder much like the term “singularity” that science often coins to suggest empirical evidence where none is to be found. No one denies that evolution takes place. What we challenge is the way in which it takes place, and what permitted it to begin.

Darwin from On the Origin of Species:
“There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one;…”

“originally breathed”… Darwin’s comment directly addresses abiogenesis, and gives the first clue as to how a chemical evolution alone does not account for how the information arose from the beginning without an original programmer. AI, AL, Robotics, Cybernetics, Information Theory, Communication Theory, and Computer Science are swarming Biology and Genetics with a blitz of well founded understandings on how the Information processing systems of DNA/RNA actually work to manifest the immaterial genome into a physical reality.

This opens the second layer of Intelligent Evolution. Noting that code can rewrite itself to react upon external stimuli of the natural environment. But the resulting mutations are not random at all. The resulting mutations are very controlled and precise. And though natural selection can indeed take place in this manner, an original programmer must in all cases be required to author the original code with those properties to begin with.

Best explained in this hour long video by Perry Marshall. http://www.perrymarshallspeaks.com/

Try to look past the references to the traditional understandings of God and Jesus Christ. It will only taint the real evidence behind the science.

We live in an age where reasonable Atheists and reasonable Theists must come together for the sake of promoting good science.

JLeslie's avatar

Not sure if the people asking about Judaism are still following…I am an atheist Jew. Judaism is a religion, but I personally also look at it as an “ethnicity” some call race, but I think race is not correct, purely my opinion, but many do use the term. I think especially with recent history, hell history in general, the many examples of hatred towards Jews; Jews more and more identify as a group because that is how society groups us. Think of it this way…during Nazi Germany if I had said, “well, my parents were Jewish, but I don’t practice Judaism, I should not be going into that oven.” Do you think they would have considered me a Jew or not? Also, we are raised with a lot of pride in our heritage, traditions, and perserverance, not to mention our small numbers generally causes the non-religious Jew to still identify as Jewish, to want to not let the group die out. Remember there are only about 16 million Jews in the world more or less, feel free to correct me haven’t looked at stats in several years. At the time of the holocaust we were about 18 million. Hitler killed off ⅓ of us, it is not so much the number, 6 million, although it is horrifyingly large, but more significant is the percentage. The US is about 2.2% Jewish (7 million), nothing really, and Israel has about the same number of Jews.

Not sure if you can consider being Israeli a race? I guess so? Israel is a country that has both Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews. You could argue they are different races probably. I guess if your family has been living in the territory of Israel for generations you might be considered Israeli by race also? I never thought about it that way. Also, of course, there are Arabs and Christians who are Israeli.

Mostly I think it is a very blurry line, and it is up to each Jew how they identify themselves. In America we have Reformed, Conservative, and Orthodox Jews. I’m guessing over 60% of reformed Jews are atheists…the reason I guess this is because I have read stats that anywhere from 40–50% of Jews are atheists, and I am pretty sure they are primarily reformed.

Critter38's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

From this page

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/intelligent_evolution_quick_guide.htm

and this page

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/iidb.htm

Marshall’s arguments commit a fundamental logical fallacy (not to mention the fallacy of equivocation), his conclusions are amongst his assumptions. Here is his central theorem.

“1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.”

In other words, it makes the unsupported assertion (#2) that all complex things (codes in this variant of Paley’s old argument) must originate from a mind (ie have a designer), and then goes on to conclude that because life (code) is complex it must originate from a (mind) designer. It’s called circular reasoning, or begging the question.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

You also write:

“Beyond the dogma, the core principles of Intelligent Evolution are two fold.”
“The first requests the biologist to actually read deeply into the writings of Charles Darwin himself, revealing that he was not so against the idea of an ultimate creator,”

This makes the fundamental error of thinking that scientists should be as accustomed to falling for arguments from historical authority as the religious are. It is absolutely irrelevant to science what Darwin believed personally. Modern evolutionary theory is based on accumulated knowledge obtained via experiment and observation gathered by thousands of independent scientists over the last 150 years, not from every antiquated utterance, no matter how intended, written by Darwin.

You asked me what I thought of “Intelligent evolution”, as far s I can tell it is empirically vacuous creationist handwaving. Suffice to say I am underwhelmed.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@Critter38

Well first let me thank you for actually giving an honest consideration. That speaks volumes about who you are and sets a great example to everyone (including myself) as how to approach a discussion bereft of prejudgment.

My quip about Darwin was not intended to convert anyone. Only to portray the man as more open minded rather than so heavily entrenched as he so often is.

Unfortunately you’ve missed it with Marshall, noting that you think he equates code with complexity. But Marshall demonstrates exactly the opposite. He does not present a variant of Paley’s watch. Marshal presents a resolve to it.

His entire thesis is based upon contrasting the differences between code and complexity and does not relate them whatsoever.

Marshall does not deny Dawkins refutation of Paley’s watch. Complexity can indeed create phenomenon via the random processes of chaos. No problem there. But when a close inspection of the phenomenon reveals a pre-existing code (Tag-Heuer, Swiss Made, 1–12, stopwatch, chronometer) then that code must by default designate the necessity for sentient authorship.

The discovery of code resolves the Paley/Dawkins dispute.

Marshall’s argument stands until DNA is rejected as a code, or until a natural mechanism for code authorship can be demonstrated.

ragingloli's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies
marshall’s argument does not stand until he proves that all code require intelligent authorship.

Critter38's avatar

Marshall’s arguments will continue to be irrelevant to science as long as the sole basis for his claims are suppositions and logical fallacies.

There is simply no empirical support for the claim that DNA is the product of sentience regardless of whether one chooses to refer to it as code, language, or tofu.

And don’t make the mistake of thinking that unless X is demonstrated, Y must be true. Failure to completely understand a natural mechanism does not confirm the existence of a supernatural mechanism. This is simply a god of the gaps argument.

ragingloli's avatar

and in any case there are proposed natural mechanisms for the emergence of “code”.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@mattbrowne

Sorry Matt. I didn’t really mean to hijack your thread. It just kind of evolved into this… Intelligently.

It does however represent somewhat of an antithesis of your original question.
“If science proves some belief of science wrong, then science will have to change”
Do you agree?

@ragingloli

Deductive logic is a common tool for science to rely upon. We cannot prove that “all” balls will fall any more than we can prove that “all” codes have authors. Yet we confidently infer the existence of gravity and authorship because the falling ball and authorship are consistent, predictable, and falsifiable.

Your link is a derivative of “a hypothetical pathway”. It does not represent reality. There are many things engineered in a lab that do not occur in nature. Should we honestly rely upon synthetic ribosomes? If the “theoretical protocell” shown in the image ever becomes reality, then it will carry some weight for this discussion. Until that time it remains irrelevant.

@Critter38

The logical fallacy tag is refuted upon Marshall’s clear separation of complexity and code. That’s the standard ID/Creationist argument, to mandate complexity as designed. That is not the Marshall position at all and it is quite unfair to conflate the two.

Complexity consists of many different parts assembling by chance to make a whole.

Complexity is irreducible. Code is always reducible down to a factor of 1 bit.

Complexity cannot be copied. Codes can always be copied exactly.

Complexity only represents itself. Code always represents something other than itself.

Complexity does not require an alphabet, or sender mechanism, nor error correction, redundancy, noise reduction, receiver, syntax, semantics, or mapping faculties from code A to B. Code requires all of these mechanisms. There is a vast chasm between code and complexity.

The discover that DNA is a code IS the empirical evidence.

How may we empirically verify the anonymous author of a book with it’s cover ripped out? The anonymous author of a note found on the street? An anonymous etching carved in a tree? Anonymous graffiti on a box car? Anonymous message in the sand?

I cannot assume that all of these codes just wrote themselves. Marshall makes no assumptions either. Assumption is a tag best fit for those who believe that code can arise by chance when it has never been show to occur in that manner. Especially when there are billions of examples of sentient authored code every day for the last 20,000 years at least. Even longer when considering the animal kingdom.

”“Information, transcription, translation, code, redundancy, synonymous, messenger, editing, and proofreading are all appropriate terms in biology. They take their meaning from information theory (Shannon, 1948) and are not synonyms, metaphors, or analogies.” (Hubert P. Yockey, Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life, Cambridge University Press, 2005)

Claude Shannon model here:
http://www.ctphotographx.com/clients/infotheory/ShannonComModel.jpg

Hubert Yockey model here:
http://www.ctphotographx.com/clients/infotheory/YockeyComModel.jpg

Yockey did not force DNA into being a code. He recognized it as a genuine full fledged no holds barred grade A code. It fits perfectly. For him to deny that would be unscrupulous. I have no basis to deny it either, and I certainly won’t bend DNA to fit. The core protocols for Transcription are exactly the same for every code from English to Paelignian.

No one has been able to say that about whirlpools, quicksand or tofu. None of those things can run through the protocols, thus none of these things earn the suffix of code. Yockey’s protocols are exactly the reason biology refers to the double helix as the genetic “code”.

Here’s a fun page… DNA through the eyes of a coder:
http://ds9a.nl/amazing-dna/
My favorite quote…
“The source code is here. This not a joke. We can wonder about the license though.”
Even he knows it must be authored and I assume he is an atheist because of the Dawkins books for sale on the web site.

ragingloli's avatar

It shows a theoretical possibility for the emergence of code without an author which runs in direct opposition to marshalls claim. The mere possibility of this having occured in the past blows marshall’s claim out of the water, unless marshall or anyone else, can prove that this possibility is in fact impossible. And if/when it is replicated in a lab, marshall’s claim is effectively dead, even if that particular way did not actually happen at life’s beginning.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@ragingloli

But that’s not the way the scientific method works. The burden is upon the one who makes the hypothesis that code can arise naturally. That person must support their theory with much more than hypothetical possibilities and a smart video.

There is no burden to disprove anything.

It’s the same logical fallacy of arguing from the negative position of…
“You can’t disprove God”

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@ragingloli

The intelligent authorship theory is quite falsifiable by demonstrating a “proven” natural mechanism responsible for creating codified information.

Why can’t we go with what IS known about code and authors until it is falsified?

ragingloli's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies
they are working on it. in my estimation, it is only a matter of time.

marshall makes a claim as well, the hypothesis that code can not arise naturally. He has yet to show that it is so.

“Why can’t we go with what IS known about code and authors until it is falsified?”

The claim that code can not arise naturally is not “known”, not even close. It is an assumption based on the fact that all known code so far other than dna/rna was written by sentient beings (which incidentally happen to be all humans).
It is the same thinking that is behind the intelligent design arguments and makes the same fundamental mistake:

It compares man made constructs who lack the ability to mutate on their own, to reproduce on their own and to compete with each other and whose components lack the ability to interact and bond with each other on their own, with life forms, cells and protocells which can mutate on their own, which do reproduce on their own, that do compete with each other and whose components, by virtue of being chemicals, do interact and bond with each other.
The comparison is meaningless because of the fundamental differences between the two things.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@ragingloli

Therein lies the dogma of science. To automatically reject proven scientific observation simply because an inference to a creator is made. In that light, the pursuit of truth is trumped and any hope for honest debate is over. I am grateful however for the growing number of scientists who will honor the integrity of the scientific method no matter where it leads, creator or not.

Marshall’s claim is solid because it’s foundation is tangible. We are free to falsify it at any time.

Sentient authored code is not limited to humans. Wolf howls, Whale song, and the figure 8 bee waggle dance are all genuine codes that run through the Shannon/Yockey protocols with flying colors.

Again, it is quite unfair to continually conflate ID with IE. My hope is that the integrity of science will be preserved by moving beyond the God block and look to the empirical evidence of real and genuine codified information. I’m sorry that ID has latched onto this principle because it only serves to give atheists a back door out of the argument.

@ragingloli said:
”...cells and protocells which can mutate on their own, which do reproduce on their own, that do compete with each other and whose components, by virtue of being chemicals, do interact and bond with each other.”

Yes, just like words and computer code do…

No one is denying this. But they are always front loaded with this capacity from the beginning by an intelligent author who programmed them to do so.

Please, you must realize that claims of chaos authored code ultimately lends support for talking trees and whispering streams of myth and folklore. I cannot allow science to go there… Can you?

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

RETRACTION!

I should not have stated:
“I cannot allow science to go there…”

It would promote the very dogma I abhor. I should allow science to pursue truth wherever it may lead.

ragingloli's avatar

“To automatically reject proven scientific observation simply because an inference to a creator is made.”
I reject it because it relies on observation of the human world alone and then makes conclusions regarding the nature of nature. “all human code has an author , therefore all codes in nature also have an author”
It IS the same as ID, as it too relies on observation of human creations and then makes conclusions regarding the natural world. “all human complex creations have a designer, therefore everything in nature has a designer too,”
It is the same underlying thought.

“Sentient authored code is not limited to humans. Wolf howls, Whale song, and the figure 8 bee waggle dance are all genuine codes that run through the Shannon/Yockey protocols with flying colors.”

None of them invented the language they use, as , especially bees, lack the intelligence to do so. The language they use emerged naturally

“Again, it is quite unfair to continually conflate ID with IE.”
It is not. Especially when both are based on the same premises.

“Yes, just like words and computer code do…”

no they don’t
Imagine several textfiles full with random letters. You could wait aeons and there still would be the exact same given that the computer they are stored on is incorruptible.
This is because the letters lack any properties that would make them naturally bond with others, e.g. A has no incentive to bond with B to form AB. The text files also have no need to consume resources to survive, as a result there is no competion for resources, no selection for advantageous traits. Because of this, they need and external intelligent agent to rearrange them in a meaningful manner.
Completely different from the natural world, where chemistry and physics dictate how a molecule behaves.

“But they are always front loaded with this capacity from the beginning by an intelligent author who programmed them to do so.”

Again, that is purely based on observations of exclusively Human creations.
Remember the videos I posted in the earlier thread that showed how complex constructs can emerge naturally?

They did not emerge because the components were programmed to behave in that way, they emerged because the simulation emulated the natural world, and the components had properties emulated after the chemical properties of molecules and atoms (which in nature are based purely on physics).
If you say that an author gave these properties to atoms and molecules then you are back in the ID camp.

“Please, you must realize that claims of chaos authored code ultimately lends support for talking trees and whispering streams of myth and folklore.”

Not Chaos authored. “Authored” by the laws of physics, competition, and natural selection.
and in a sense, trees are “talking”. they just juse chemicals to do that (read it somewhere)

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@ragingloli

Humans can invent a language, but it is common knowledge that root languages evolved naturally thousands of years ago. When I say naturally, I refer to it being perfectly natural for sentient entities to embrace symbolic logic. But no, full language structure did not just leap into existence by accident. It is always sentient driven. English is not an invention, it is a continually evolving product of sentient human behavior. It evolved from other languages, which evolved from primitive symbolic representation.

So it does NOT rely upon the observation of human creations alone. It can, but it does not. Thus the animal code stands valid because languages are not necessarily invented.

So IE is NOT the same as ID.

ID infers design in chaos. IE rejects it. That’s a pretty vast chasm to pull together.

ID/Creationism does not base its foundation upon the existence of codified information. The IE platform is based solely upon the foundation of codified information. The only similarity is that they both infer the existence of a creator. ID claims it to be the Christian God. IE fully admits it could be any sentient entity beyond our biosphere, and not necessarily a God. Unfortunate that Perry Marshall has chosen to attribute authorship to the Christian God. It only serves to conflate the two notions. But IE is a theory based in science. ID is an opinion based in religious doctrine.

IE accepts Dawkins resolve of “apparent design”. ID rejects it.

IE and ID are miles apart from one another. They are not based upon the same premise at all.

And yes, words and code do indeed do react to each other on their very own just like cells and protocells do. You forget that both of them need a driving force for anything to happen. The driving force is different, as you almost noted, but the mechanisms are very much the same. That’s why people are so eager to confuse complexity with code.

Cells need the chaos behind the governing the laws of physics as their driving force. “By virtue of being chemicals” means they are subject to being comprised of energy and matter. They can be utilized as a medium to express an information bearing code. But they do not automatically form into a code by default. Energy and matter obey the governing laws of physics. It is simple cause and reaction, like a tornado. Take away the driving force of physics and neither the cells or tornado would do anything. They wouldn’t even exist in the first place.

Code is the same, but its driving force is not the laws of physics. The driving force behind code is a sentient mind. Take away the mind and the code does nothing. It wouldn’t even exist in the first place.

But when cells and code are equipped with their specific driving force (their animator) then they move in accordance with that which governs them.

A has incentive to bond with B to form AB…

Laws of physics bonds H2O
Protocols of code bond thoughts.

Need to consume resources, survive, competition, selection… for code? Why yes indeed…

Resources are the material medium which constructs the code. Smoke rings, vibrations, metal for typesetting, electricity and typing for emails…

Survival of the best code is the one which represents the best information. We are demonstrating that currently with this discussion. Just like Darwin’s thoughts survived among the eco-theories of his day.

Competition is represented by the other eco-theories.

Selection is the theory that science proves and the public accepts.

Googles entire platform is based upon this intelligent evolution of words, information and intentions. It is a perfect model of classic Darwinian evolution. People reject it only because they find out that code must be sentient driven, but not because of any fundamental flaw in the theory.

Science is being held back (much like in Barbara McClintock’s day) by refusing to accept that DNA must be examined like any other sentient authored code. Purely on the basis of the ultimate implications that acceptance would carry with it.

But I’ll go with any scenario that you want as long as the playing field remains equal, fair and balanced.

If you insist that code cannot evolve without its driving force of sentience, then I’ll insist that cells cannot evolve without their driving force of physics. In that case, neither one of them can evolve and react to anything on their own. Keep the game fair.

@ragingloli said:
“Remember the videos I posted in the earlier thread that showed how complex constructs can emerge naturally?”

That video does not account for where the information came from. It only illustrates the cause and effect results of classic physics. Physics alone does not produce information of any kind.

Remember the Norbert Weiner quote?
“Information is information. Not energy and not matter. Any materialism that does not allow for this cannot survive in the present”.
Cybernetics, p147

@ragingloli said:
“They did not emerge because the components were programmed to behave in that way, they emerged because the simulation emulated the natural world, and the components had properties emulated after the chemical properties of molecules and atoms (which in nature are based purely on physics).”

Just like a tornado. Just like an ice crystal. Just like aluminum.

@ragingloli said:
“If you say that an author gave these properties to atoms and molecules then you are back in the ID camp.”

I wouldn’t dream of it.

@ragingloli said:
“Not Chaos authored. “Authored” by the laws of physics, competition, and natural selection.
and in a sense, trees are “talking”. they just juse chemicals to do that (read it somewhere)”

The “laws of physics” are a human authored code to describe the mechanisms of chaos. And no, the trees aren’t talking in by any means whatsoever. Please don’t buy into the pseudo science of plant communication. When Martha Stewart says, “Miracles in the Garden”… she doesn’t really mean that. (at least I hope not).

And if you read any scientific paper on so called plant communication, make sure to read it very carefully. What you will find is a set of triggers producing cause and effect just like the cells and tornadoes are doing. Insect saliva is the most common which releases a defense strategy enzyme which happens to smell good to a wasp who comes and eats the insect. This is what I call “apparent information” in homage to Dawkins term “apparent design”.

No codified information has been produced in any form of so called plant communication.

ragingloli's avatar

“apparent information”
in the same way one can see DNA/RNA as “apparent information” which seems to contain information but is in fact nothing more than a molecule with chemical properties in a vast deterministic system. It too is the result of cause and effect.
Mutations introduce differences between dna molecules, different dna configurations have different chemical properties causing different effects on the host body. competition and natural selection (both pure cause and effect) decide which dna configurations survive.
This way life can start from the most simple of (purely chemical) systems, like the lipid vesicles, and by cause and effect turn into the most complex systems.
it could be said that dna is no code, contains no code, is no information and contains no information, but is just a part in a machine.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@ragingloli

Refer to Yockey. Transcription is not a result of apparent information. It predefines for a specific outcome. What specific outcome do protocells predefine for?

You might say that DNA is not a code, but I wouldn’t. If you do, then your beef is with Yockey and all other biologists who refer to it as the genetic “code”.

And if you think transcription is a simple case of cause/effect, then you have a beef with Barbara McClintock and James Schapiro.

“A goal for the future would be to determine the extent of knowledge the cell has of itself, and how it utilizes this knowledge in a “thoughtful” manner
when challenged.” emphasis mine
(McClintock, B. 1984. The Significance Of Responses Of The Genome
To Challenge. Science 226: 792–801.)

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@ragingloli

BTW…

Intelligent Design rejects evolution more often than not. Intelligent Evolution completely embraces evolution. It only rejects random mutation as a satisfactory author.

ragingloli's avatar

“It predefines for a specific outcome.”
how does it predefine? chemical reactions. what causes predefiniton? the chemical state of the organism.

“What specific outcome do protocells predefine for?”
they don’t. they are much simpler than today’s cells, and lack the mechanisms for this.

“You might say that DNA is not a code, but I wouldn’t. If you do, then your beef is with Yockey and all other biologists who refer to it as the genetic “code”.”
I think that is simply because of the lack of a better word.

As for McClintock’s quote, having knowledge requires intelligence, which a single cell lacks, so this remark about knowledge is most likely a metaphor for a more complex system.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Sure, chemical reactions are the mechanism to translate four letters to 20 amino acids. That is indeed the physical mechanism. But accepting that as the entire story is like stating electricity and phosphors alone have predefined my message to you right now. Ink on paper is a chemical reaction that acts as a physical medium to transmit information. But ink on paper is not responsible for that message any more than chemical reactions or amino acids are. It’s just the medium, it’s not the message. The medium represents the message. Where does the message come from?

The double helix represents something other than itself. It represents actions that need to be taken to create @ragingloli. And it predefines these actions to create you and only you very effectively. It predefines a set of actions, not reactions.

Cause into Reaction is from chaos. Thought into Action is from mind.

@ragingloli said:
“I think that is simply because of the lack of a better word.”

Science has never had a problem with inventing new words to describe phenomenon. Please consider the careful usage of “genetic code” because it is a genuine code that fits very specific and unique protocols. If it wasn’t a code, then it wouldn’t be called a code by the most respected scientists of our age.

Remember Yockey… “They take their meaning from Information Theory and are all appropriate terms in biology…not metaphors…”

@ragingloli said:
“…having knowledge requires intelligence, which a single cell lacks…”

But that’s the whole point of McClintock and Schapiro’s work. They refer to the cell as having intelligent properties. This does not mean the cell is sentient. Humans write intelligent programs all the time to react to stimuli and rewrite themselves accordingly.

ragingloli's avatar

“Sure, chemical reactions are the mechanism to translate four letters to 20 amino acids.”
No, there are no letters. there are only chemical components.

“Ink on paper is a chemical reaction that acts as a physical medium to transmit information. But ink on paper is not responsible for that message any more than chemical reactions or amino acids are.”
They are. Not in the immediate way like you think but in a longer chain of events.
What makes your muscles move? Chemical reactions and nerve impulses sent from the brain.
What creates the Nerve impulses? Chemical reactions
What created the brain? Chemical reactions, based on DNA.
What made DNA? Chemical reactions.

“Where does the message come from?”
The “message” is formed by thoughts in your brain. These thoughts are ultimately nothing more than a concerto of nerve impulses which themselves are based on chemical reactions.

“The double helix represents something other than itself. It represents actions that need to be taken to create @ragingloli.”
I have to point you towards how these “instructions” came to be.
A million years ago, this double helix “represented actions” not to create me, but to create an ape.
Much longer back in time, a fish-like creature.
Much longer back, a single cell organism that was much more primitive than today’s single cell organisms.
It “added” these “instructions” without an author , merely by trial and error.
This protocell in most likeliness did not even have a nukleus, did not have molecules dedicated to replicating, not even DNA itself, but a self replicating ancestor that just floated around inside after being absorbed from the outside and that from there influenced the host with its chemical properties.
Going back in time you can see that the “instructions” get simpler and simpler and the results less complex, down to the point where they are so simple and primitive that they merely increase the osmotic pressure of a single layer lipid vesicle, where you can see that the influences the molecule has are purely chemical.
No one needs to program a molecule to increase osmotic pressure or to replicate itself.
No one needs to program a molecule to combine with another molecule, changing the chemical properties of the resulting molecule.
It needs no programming or “authorship” to create DNA if you have chemistry, mutation, natural selection and a lot of time.

“Science has never had a problem with inventing new words to describe phenomenon.”
It creates them when appropriate and when already available terms are unfitting.
In the case of DNA, which resembles “code” strongly, there simply was no need to invent a new word.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

No letters? What do you think a codon is? Letters and codons equate to a symbolic structures that are used to build words and genes. Each codon is built from a very specific tri-nucleotide sequence just like the letter “K” has a very specific tri-stroke.

The telegraph operator does the same thing with
“ . . . __ __ __ . . . “ equating to “ S O S “

Letters come in many forms. The binary language your computer uses to make the letter “X” looks nothing like an X. But it is an X nonetheless.

The “chemical components” are arranged in such a fashion that they mean something other than “chemical components”. It’s the same as every code.

@ragingloli said:
“What made DNA? Chemical reactions.”

We agree. But that’s not the question here. The question is who/what wrote the Genetic Code. Chemical reactions have never been shown to write anything on their own any more than a book has never been show to write itself on its own.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies said:
“Where does the message come from?”

@ragingloli said:
The “message” is formed by thoughts in your brain.

How does my brain form the message represented in the closed loop DNA/RNA transcription communication system? That’s what created my brain. My brain certainly couldn’t form a thought to instruct DNA.

@ragingloli said:
“I have to point you towards how these “instructions” came to be.
A million years ago, this double helix “represented actions”…

I fully agree with evolutionary principles. I have no problem with evolution at all. The Ape, the fish, the single cell… fine fine no problem with that at all.

But when you say: “This protocell…“added” these “instructions” without an author , merely by trial and error.”

How do you expect me to take that as fact when it has never been shown to happen? Chaos has never been shown to write instructions. To believe so at this point is a giant leap of faith. Science doesn’t work on faith.

Sure, no one needs to program pressure, replication, combination…

But someone does need to program codified information which uses your end result as a medium to express the thought from a mind.

@ragingloli said:
“It needs no programming or “authorship” to create DNA if you have chemistry, mutation, natural selection and a lot of time.”

You are speaking as if this is fact. It is not. The key is the type of mutation. A random scrabble has never authored a meaningful sentence, and it has no decoding mechanism in place to act upon it if it did. Actions are made manifest through intentions communicated from a sender to a receiver. Sure the alphabet can be structured upon ANY physical medium. But what is the communication protocol acting upon? I’ll give you the alphabet. I’ll give you the redundancy and the replication. I’ll even give you the transmitter. But where are the semantic rules, the syntax, the error correction, the noise reduction, the code mapping from A to B, and the receiver mechanism?

How long will natural selection allow the protocell to exist without the full communication protocol in place?

@ragingloli said:
“In the case of DNA, which resembles “code” strongly…”

Are you really going to stand by that, saying that DNA only “resembles” a code…?

You can argue with Perry Marshall here:
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/dnanotcode.htm

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@ragingloli

I take back the redundancy. You should account for that as well when describing the full communication protocol.

ralfe's avatar

@Critter38 There are actually many peer reviewed research papers in support of intelligent design. For example:

Meyer, S. C. DNA and the origin of life: Information, specification and explanation, in Darwinism, Design, & Public Education (Michigan State University Press, 2003)

and

John Angus Campbell and Stephen C. Meyer, Darwinism, Design, & Public Education (Michigan State University Press, 2003)

The reason scientific research will always be bias is because it is only ever possible to consider a sample of the population of testable cases. Certainty can only be reached through consideration of the whole, which is not possible. I have found this to be the case many times in psychological research, where cultural artifacts of westernization were assumed to be universal constants, essentially because of a biased sample.

In addition, it is incredibly foolish to ignore the possibility of an intelligent being beyond the confines of what is observable by us. If that is where the evidence leads, then we cannot just push it asside because it is not possible to ‘measure’ god.

A simple case would be to ask what occured before the point where single cell organisms had the capability to reproduce? At best, amino acids have been reproduced in laboratory experiments simulating primordial conditions. That is a long way off from even the proteins required to construct basic elements of a cell, nevermind one capable of reproduction. This therefore takes away two out of three requirements for evolution; reproduction and variation. From the evidence we have, it is not scientific to make the massive leap to highly complex structures naturally occuring, such as DNA etc… I am aware of various papers arguing the case for DNA and RNA to occur through chance circumstances, however, this has not been able to be reproduced in the lab. Added to this, the statistical probability of this occuring is just too minute to consider.

Critter38's avatar

@real “No letters? What do you think a codon is?”

I think you persist in the code analogy because if you allow yourself to think not in terms of analogy, but in terms of biology, all of your arguments break down.

“But when you say: “This protocell…“added” these “instructions” without an author , merely by trial and error.” How do you expect me to take that as fact when it has never been shown to happen? Chaos has never been shown to write instructions. ”

This is a variant of the same old analogy that “It is as if a hurricane, blowing through a junkyard, had the good fortune to assemble a Boeing 747.” But the analogy is wrong. No one is talking about Chaos writing instructions. This is a straw man argument. We’re talking about variation in chemical combinations being selected through time by differential persistence to produce chemical combinations which are more effective at persisting and reproducing themselves. That’s not chaos.

As a side note don’t confuse arguments about mutations being non-random as support for intelligence or directed evolution. There are many chemical factors which limit the “randomness” of mutations, thereby making it suitable to refer to many forms of change in the genome as non-random.

Yes and increasing complexity in the genome as has been demonstrated by numerous experiments and observations.

You’ll find references here.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html

You also might be interested in reading the following two articles which directly challenge arguments from incredulity regarding abiogenesis.

http://www.reasonproject.org/newsfeed/item/chemist_shows_how_rna_can_be_the_starting_point_for_life/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/science/16orig.html?_r=1

You’ll note that in the first article written in May of this year refers to a scientist who is perplexed but persistent in addressing the problem of handedness of chemicals.

But in the second article, written in June answers to this problem may have already been found.

You should also note that in the first article it discusses how little was known regarding how nature could have solved these problems just a decade ago.

If you don’t understand this point you will always make the mistake of persisting in an argument from incredularity. At any stage in this process someone could have raised the goddidit card and intellectual process ceases.

Which I think raises the heart of the issue. This is my fundamental point which is why it is not dogmatic, but pragmatic, of science to keep god out of the equation.

It is this, god is a philosophically valid but scientifically sterile concept.

Let me explain.

Two deeply religious scientists have an extremely complex problem in front of them. Neither knows how natural processes could have possibly resulted in X. Both believe that god is at the heart of all; their lives, the universe and everything.

Scientist A: Only the hand of god could have enabled such natural magnificence to occur!
Scientist B: Yes I agree. But how do you think he did it?
A: We will never know because we cannot know his ways. God can do anything, appear in anyway, change natural laws, miracles, and frankly do things we cannot possibly imagine. natural processes can account for all these other problems we have solved together, but not problem X.
B: Perhaps. But maybe he is so magnificent that he invented a process that is so brilliant that even this most complex thing (Problem X), arose using only the rules of chemistry that he himself invented.
A: I can’t imagine how that could be done, therefore I don’t believe it (argument from incredularity)
B: You could be right. But I think I might have an idea…

In walks atheist colleague scientist C. Hey, you know that problem we’ve been trying to solve…I might have an idea.

Scientist B and C go on to find a natural explanation for the grand problem X.

The point is that belief that godditit is fine. Many scientists believe just that. But, there is no scientifically valid way of testing hypotheses if we insert a goddidit clause into any problem that seems too difficult to solve without it..because every unsolved problem in science begins this way.

IE assumes miraculous intervention, as does ID, as does creationism. IE says that DNA is a code and an intelligence must have made it. Okay, so what do we do then? Nothing. Because why bother trying to find a natural process for something that was created supernaturally. IE is an intellectual dead end.

So it makes no difference whether there is a god or not. Assuming that a god is behind the curtain doesn’t teach us anything. Which is why the Christian scientist and the atheist scientist can work just as effectively on a common scientific problem, as long as both don’t presume any obstacle to discovery..supernatural or otherwise.

This has happened throughout history. Watch this relevant talk by Neil degrasse Tyson

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-102519600994873365

So my point.

So you are more than free to believe that genetic code is too special to have anything but a supernatural or intelligent origin. But be thankful that scientists don’t assume that behind all ignorance is a miracle. It’s an intellectual dead end for science, and frankly for the religious, I can only imagine that it is simply hubris to presume the mind of god. Which is exactly what people do when they claim that X cannot be created by god through natural processes.

Critter38's avatar

@ralfe The anthology you mention did not go through a peer review process in any sense of the term. The claim is to give the book the appearance of scientific credibility.

Here is a relevant book review. Ask yourself whether that sounds like the independent, critical analysis that a stamp of peer-review implies.

http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/44/6/510

I believe I address your other points in my response to realeyes.

If you want some help I can give you a list of papers published by supporters of ID (see below). But do yourself a favour and check the specifics. Even legitimate peer-review is just the start of the scientific process, not the end point.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CI/CI001_4.html

ralfe's avatar

@Critter38 I have seen those url’s, thank you. Also, I realise that peer review does not make magically convert a theory into truth. However, the fact remains that there are those in the scientific community who pursue ID. In the context of the question “if science proves some belief of Christianity wrong, ...”, my original comment was to clarify that the scientific community is not a unified body, and there exists, within it, conflicting ideas.

I enjoyed reading your response to @real, and I agree with a lot of what you have to say. However, it is not about not wanting to pursue understanding and knowledge simply because we presume God was behind something, but rather, that should simply be a stepping stone directing further investigation.

Critter38's avatar

@ralfe

Fair enough, and thanks for the compliment.

Yes and I fully agree with your comment about science not being a unified body…that would be disastrous. But at the same time ID currently has no scientific merit, and it is my opinion that it will continue to be a dead end scientifically for the fundamental reasons I suggest above (god or not god).

But just to clarify, I don’t think that an exasperated religious scientist presumes god is behind some natural phenomenon because they personally don’t want further knowledge….Who knows what their motivation might be. But it doesn’t really matter. And frankly one religious person can use a love of god as a powerful motivator to investigate the natural world and achieve scientific greatness.

The problem comes when a scientific question remains unsolved and the intellectual difficulty in solving the problem motivates a supernatural explanation for lack of a known natural alternative. Some individual scientists have always done this, but it is only through the efforts of those who have not taken this route (religious or not) that has enabled progress in our scientific understanding and the pushing forward of our perimeter of knowledge.

So it is not about belief in god. It is about whether we presume to know the limits of nature and in our ability to understand a specific problem. Or, if you like, to presume to know the ways of god and our ability to understand his methods. To do so is to draw a line in the sand of wisdom and declare that none can pass.

This is why it is not dogmatism that keeps god out of the science books, it is a simple pragmatic necessity for religious and non-religious scientists alike.

ralfe's avatar

@Critter38 I see your point. But consider this:

If a geologist came across Stonehenge in England, would it not be a very sad waste of time for that person to dedicate years of research to understand what sort of geological forces caused the rocks to form that particular arrangement. If the evidence pointed towards some sort of intelligence behind the formation, would it not be prudent to rather research how people might have arranged those rocks, and possibly for what reason, instead of going down a path of reasoning which is nothing more than a mental exercise?

Critter38's avatar

I ask you to reconsider the usefulness of your analogy.

You are comparing

1) the capacity of a scientist to weigh up the likelihood of a structure being the product of relatively well known geological forces with all their limitations, or human activities and all their limitations.

with

2) the capacity of a scientist to categorically decide where the limits of natural processes end, and where the hypothetically possible but entirely unsubstantiated, and therefore unknown and unknowable supernatural intelligence begins to play around with the order of the universe.

Remember we are not even talking about the existence of god. For the sake of argument lets assume that he does exist. What we are talking about is where and when and how he chooses to interfere in otherwise natural processes.

So I invite you to try to draw that line in the sand and explain how you made your decision as to what natural phenomenon cannot and will never be explained by natural processes. And I hasten to add that you may be right in your decision. But if you are wrong (which is highly likely considering the by necessity arbitrary and entirely unjustifiable nature of making such a decision), it will not be you who finds out why. But the scientist who decided that the line wasn’t there at all, or the one who decided that supernatural involvement might exist further out on the perimeter of wisdom, and was thereby motivated to discover just that little bit more.

Does that make sense?

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Thanks for the links. I’d like to consider them before commenting at length, if at all.

Some of your comments should be addressed though.

@Critter38 said:
“Which is why the Christian scientist and the atheist scientist can work just as effectively on a common scientific problem, as long as both don’t presume any obstacle to discovery..supernatural or otherwise.”

That’s one of the most comforting statements I’ve ever heard on this subject. Upon those words, you shall be quoted.

As to the Godbox (goddidit)… and what is supernatural…

I personally have a slightly different perspective on this, being that, if “goddidit”, then it is perfectly natural for God to have done it. I don’t believe in the supernatural whatsoever. I believe there are many questions that are not and possibly cannot be explainable to current human understanding. But whatever those questions are, there must be real and valid answers, even if we are incapable of comprehending them. That is no excuse to believe in ghosts.

The term “God” is so subjective and loosely defined. That’s a strong clue in itself. Nothing substantial can be founded upon such a moving target. One underlying observation across many different religions is that God often manifests in ways that humans do not understand or agree with. This promotes me to believe that God is most likely something entirely different from traditional religious interpretations.

If God is real, then God must be a real entity. And no matter how separate it must seem to our human understanding, if it is real, then it must by default be perfectly natural.

@Critter38 said:
“I think you persist in the code analogy because if you allow yourself to think not in terms of analogy, but in terms of biology, all of your arguments break down.”

How can I let that go with any degree of integrity? How can you?
“Information, transcription, translation, code, redundancy, synonymous, messenger, editing, and proofreading are all appropriate terms in biology. They take their meaning from information theory (Shannon, 1948) and are not synonyms, metaphors, or analogies.” (Hubert P. Yockey, Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life, Cambridge University Press, 2005)

No insult intended, but not acknowledging this premise sets biology apart from all other information sciences that know differently. To do this would be akin to setting biology apart with the same stanchion as Papal Authority claims to own.

@Critter38 said:
“This is a variant of the same old analogy that “It is as if a hurricane, blowing through a junkyard, had the good fortune to assemble a Boeing 747.”

Please try an move beyond that notion. There is no codified information present in any argument from design. IE agrees with Dawkins completely on Paley’s watch and the Junkyard Jet scenario. Those arguments are based upon an equation of energy and matter alone. IE introduces a third agent to the equation. Energy + Matter + Information = Life.

“Information is information. Not energy and not matter. Any materialism that does not allow for this cannot survive in the present”
Norbert Weiner, Cybernetics p147

I wouldn’t dream of preventing anyone from looking for a chaotic mechanism that authors codified information. I wouldn’t dream of slowing the momentum of biology by denying what is already known about code either. I must question, how much more would the genome project and genetics as a whole benefit from pursuing research with the awareness of an authorship principle? Would it increase our ability to understand if we factored that possibility into our investigations?

Noting authorship does not automatically constitute anything supernatural or miraculous. This possible Being that we happen to call God, this Being deserves more than our superstitions. This Being also deserves more than our automatic rejection of it.

I will read your links and thank you kindly for your time.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@ralfe

Noting Stonehenge is a wonderful example. It is indeed a strong argument to examine Paley’s watch with the utmost scrutiny. The object itself must be observed with open awareness and curiosity. If our observation does not reveal a code, then the object must be considered a product of chaos. If our observation reveals a code, then the object must be considered a product of authorship. I see no other way around this.

ralfe's avatar

@Critter38 Yes, it does make sense. Perfect sense. But I feel it is dangerously restrictive. For, if God does exist, you will never acknowledge it due to these boundaries to understanding which you are placing on yourself. I imagine you would rebuttle that holding onto the idea of God would also detract from finding scientific truth, thereby placing boundaries on understanding as well.

Perhaps it comes down to whether or not one can live with knowingly removing a set of possibilities about something potentially very important.

It may be worthwhile considering that every recorded society has had a spiritual dimension, which moves way beyond mythological explanations of the incomprehensible. It suggests an inherent desire to worship something greater. We, as humans, seem to be uniquely designed to want to worship something.

It seems to me that we cannot know until some indisputable evidence appears revealing the existance of God. Although, many would argue that the universe is such evidence. In any case, there are just too many cases where the existance of God seems more logical than the alternatives. For example, assuming that time and space are intimately linked, and that the space-time continuum started at the point of the big bang, then the only possibility is that a force outside of the space-time continuum must have initiated the big bang. That seems very suggestive of the idea of God. However, I do realise that this conclusion is based on a few assumptions which cannot be confirmed.

Critter38's avatar

I’ll just address the issue of restriction which both Ralfe and Real bring up.

@ralfe “Yes, it does make sense. Perfect sense. But I feel it is dangerously restrictive.”

@Real “I must question, how much more would the genome project and genetics as a whole benefit from pursuing research with the awareness of an authorship principle? Would it increase our ability to understand if we factored that possibility into our investigations?”

Let me be clear, the restrictions I am talking about are inherent in the task at hand. Not external, but intrinsic.

So let’s take this to the actual scale of inquiry. You’re a scientist trying to determine the process by which two RNA molecules can promote each other’s synthesis from the four kinds of RNA nucleotides. You’re a prebiotic chemist trying to understand handedness in molecules. etc..

This is the scale at which answers are being sought to understand the origins of life.

Generic handwaving statements that such and such must involve intelligence offers nothing to the solution of these problems. Take the argument that intelligence must be behind DNA.

Now put yourself in the lab and ask yourself specifically what the scientist is to do with such a generic broad sweeping claim. What path can possibly be pursued to follow it up? How can the claim possibly be falsified? What testable predictions do such claims make?

Really try to answer these questions and you’ll see the intrinsic nature of the problem. This is not naturalistic dogma that keeps god out, but the practical realities of conducting science.

Because even if we assume an intelligence, we are still at a loss as to exactly where and when and how, and how much that intelligence interferes with natural processes. And without that knowledge, at which point in our pursuit of answers to scientific questions can we somehow justify assuming that it does kicks in. Eyes? Flagella? Prebiotic cells? DNA? RNA? Nucleotides?

For instance, even If after 100 years of trying we still don’t know the answer to how natural processes could do something, this does not by default indicate interference by an intelligence. And even if we find a natural explanation for a phenomenon, this by does not by default rule out interference by an intelligence.

So what are we left with?

Ralfe, you pretty much hit the nail on the head when you made the following comment. “It seems to me that we cannot know until some indisputable evidence appears revealing the existence of God.” but you have to add, AND, god fills us in on how and when he/she/it/they interferes with natural processes.

Until such time IE and ID will continue to be philosophies of ignorance, and scientists will continue to successfully pursue natural processes and explanations for the origin of life and related phenomena.

Unless someone has something very specific and preferably new to raise with me, I would prefer to bid you adieu and thank you both for the discussion. Also, apologises to MattBrowne for the somewhat tangential but hopefully interesting direction this has taken.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Critter38 – No problem at all. The discussion was interesting and highly entertaining!

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@Critter38

Very specifically… and maybe new with you although I brought the point up previously.

@Critter38 asked:
“How can the claim possibly be falsified?”

Demonstrate a chaotic mechanism that can author codified information.

@Critter38 asked:
“What testable predictions do such claims make?”

That all codes must ultimately be attributed to sentient authorship, even if anonymous.

@Critter38 asked:
”...ask yourself specifically what the scientist is to do with such a generic broad sweeping claim.”

It is a very specific observation, testable, predictable, falsifiable. It is not “a generic broad sweeping claim”. The first thing we do is acknowledge it as “that which is known”. What we do with that knowledge is up to the individual researcher. Some will continue their research un-phased by the assertion, and that would be perfectly fine. But others may approach genetics from an entirely different angle, and here’s where it gets extremely interesting.

When an Archaeologist unearths an ancient vase, she becomes aware of a specific object.

When a Biologist de-flesh’s DNA, she becomes aware of a specific object.

Both are capable of understanding that finding only to the degree that their observations of the physical material elements allow.

Yet when the vase or DNA is discovered to have writing upon it, a code, they turn to linguistics because both understand that this writing represents something other than the object. The writing on the vase does not mean “container”. The writing in DNA does not mean “double helix”.

The writing, first and foremost “means” something very specific beyond the medium used to express it.

One set of writing “means”
Culture of Pompeii.

The other writing “means”
@Critter38

Both sets of writing point to sentient authorship. And with that in mind, the Archaeologist and the Biologist are thus capable of pursuing further research on the nature and attributes about each of the anonymous authors.

We thus attempt to get “into the mind” of the rightly noted author at hand, discovering much more than if we only looked at the material object alone, disregarding the information that is right in front of our face.

Before noting the Bee Waggle as a code, science understood Bee colonies pretty well. But noting the Waggle 8 Dance as a code, we thus discover sentient properties in the creature that were otherwise left unnoticed. The dance codes specifically for distance, direction, wind drift and possibly more. Our understanding of Bees and Pompeii are vastly increased by noting codified information for what it actually is.

As to the nature of the mysterious DNA author, I recently heard a prominent Atheist make a case against a Creator based purely upon the supposedly poor design of the human anatomy. Unbeknownst to him, he was actually using the argument from Design in reverse (the game should be played fair). But my issue with his dissertation was quite different.

He rejected a Creator based upon the human digestive and waste tract being so closely positioned to the genitals. “What a poor design” he scoffed, “Why would an all powerful Being put the sexual reproduction system next to the filth of a digestive system”, making the comparison of placing a pleasure center next to a trash heap.

The audience applauded his observation and scoffed right along with him. How sad narrow-mindedness truly is. For he was unwittingly arguing against homosexual activity, while at the same time disregarding the efficiency of the mechanism.

Does not our current design promote cleanliness and hygiene? Our arms are long enough for our hands to reach the area. Does not our current design provide ample insulation from the waste tract to keep the reproductive system warm and active?

His shortsightedness is quickly revealed to be debatably beneficial. What other benefits may be discovered by accepting the principle of intentional authorship?

Do code hackers do better by just examining the 1’s & 0’s? Or are they better served by attempting to get “into the mind” of the author who wrote the program?

Shuttle128's avatar

Since, by your definition of natural, any laboratory demonstration of this will be assumed to be “front-loaded” with code anyway, I have abandoned all hope of convincing you with ribozyme experiments or other similar lab tests. However, it is possible to explain a process by which information could arrive in DNA.

Now please, try to follow this logically, simply as I write and explain this, rather than through your Shannon/Yockey lenses.

In order for a code to develop there must be an interpreter; some function to interpret the result of the initial code. When a function exists that can relate physical traits and their final outcomes a form of representation can develop. A code is a representation of one thing by another.

Let us take, for example, a self replicating molecule. A self replicating molecule in itself does not contain information because the molecule does not represent anything. However, if the molecule struggles for replication resources against other molecules, its ability to replicate is a function of the atoms that compose it and their configurations, and it alters its surrounding environment, then information can develop. A molecule can alter its surrounding environment by chemical reaction.

When this molecule alters its surrounding environment in a predictable and reproducible way it could be said that the molecule’s composition and orientation has become a code (a representation) for its surrounding environment. Because natural selection operates on the basis of the fitness of the entire organism (meaning the molecule and its surrounding environment) a code can develop as well as ways of transcribing and protecting the source of the organism’s structure.

Any alteration to the code will alter its surroundings. What alterations encourage better replication of the code will propagate due to natural selection. The development of a transcription process and other important code-like effects are perfectly natural results of natural selection and trial and error. How do you think we developed rules for information transmission? Trial and error. To say that information transmission is a purely intelligent operation is highly egotistical (I’m thinking of another word here but can’t seem to find the right one; similar to egotistical but more a human centric view of the universe).

From my studies on neural networks and thought, classification and representation are things that happen very naturally as a result of simple rules. It is not surprising at all that DNA could develop as a code through the simple rules of natural selection.

ragingloli's avatar

@Shuttle128
i already explained that to her in an earlier thread. apparently she will have nothing of this.

Shuttle128's avatar

Anthropocentric! That’s the word I was looking for.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@Shuttle128 said:
“Since, by your definition of natural, any laboratory demonstration of this will be assumed to be “front-loaded” with code anyway,”

I never officially defined Natural. But allow me to do so. Natural is that which is possible. It is not possible for code to arise on its own without sentient intervention.

I said,
“When I say naturally, I refer to it being perfectly natural for sentient entities to embrace symbolic logic. But no, full language structure did not just leap into existence by accident. It is always sentient driven.”

I said,
“If God is real, then God must be a real entity. And no matter how separate it must seem to our human understanding, if it is real, then it must by default be perfectly natural.”

@Shuttle128 said:
“Now please, try to follow this logically,..”
”…for a code to develop there must be an interpreter; some function to interpret the result of the initial code…”

I can’t follow you logically because you just leapfrogged over the entire process. That’s not how it works Shuttle. Horse before the cart.

For code to develop, there must be an author, not an interpreter. Authors don’t interpret. Authors describe or create, and they always do this with code. Upon that descriptive code is the genesis of signal transmission. We now have alphabet A.

An interpreter needs a code to interpret. Don’t confuse an interpreter with an observer. Observers don’t need a code. Observers author code.

Shuttle128's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies How does representation come about? Some function must relate the outcome to the initial state. It’s that simple. The author doesn’t have to be sentient. I don’t understand why you cling to the idea that representation must be caused by sentience.

Representation is at the heart of what you call code. You claim that the only way for representation to occur is for sentience to assign it. However, the role that sentience plays in creating code is simply a function that relates one thing to another. Natural selection fills this role, thus representation can develop without sentience.

I did ask you to try not to interpret my explanation through Shannon/Yockey definitions of code. Their assumptions are inherent to their theories and thus it is impossible for you to see what I am saying without denying the base assumptions of your world view. I do see where you might have been confused about me referencing the code that an observer interprets before a code had developed, however, I think I made my points perfectly clear.

I very much doubt there is anything more that I can say to make my point more clear. I would like to point out that humans have arrived at Shannon and Yockey’s version of information transmission in much the same way that DNA has, through trial and error. It is of no surprise that the information contained within DNA and it’s methods of preserving and transcribing it are similar to our own methods of information transmission. What Shannon, Yockey, and yourself fail to realize is that an author need not be sentient.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@Shuttle128 asked:
“How does representation come about?”

AnswerThrough sentient intervention.

@Shuttle128 said:
“I don’t understand why you cling to the idea that representation must be caused by sentience.”

ReplyWhich one of these definitions does not require sentient intervention?

rep·re·sent v
1.vt to act or speak on behalf of somebody or something
2.vt to symbolize or stand for something
3.vt to go or be present somewhere on behalf of somebody or something
4.vt to speak and act for somebody else in an official way
5.vt to express or explain what is happening or what people think
6.vt to be somewhere in large or small numbers
7.vt to be a sign or equivalent of something
8.vt to portray or present an image of somebody or something as being something in particular
9.vr to describe yourself as something you are not
10.vt to portray or perform a character or role on stage

Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation.

rep·re·sen·ta·tion n
1.the fact or right of being represented by somebody, especially of having a member in a legislature with power to vote or speak for an electorate
2.the system by which electors vote for people to represent them as legislators, administrators, or judges, or the group of people so elected
3.a visual depiction of somebody or something
4.action or speech on behalf of another, especially as an agent or deputy
5.a description, account, or statement of something real or alleged, especially one meant to induce a response from authority (often used in the plural)
6.a statement, real or implied, that encourages somebody to make an agreement
7.a theatrical performance or production

Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation.

@Shuttle128 said:
“Representation is at the heart of what you call code.”

ReplyYes, code always represents something other than itself.

@Shuttle128 said:
“However, the role that sentience plays in creating code is simply a function that relates one thing to another.”

ReplyBingo! Descriptive authorship relates one thing to another. The code you read from me is related to the thoughts from my mind. The code you read from the instructions about your new microwave oven is ultimately related to the thoughts from someone else’s mind. The code that our computers communicate between each other behind the scenes is ultimately related to the thoughts of our minds, and the minds of the programmers, developers and engineers that made the internet possible.

All code is ultimately traced back to a sentient mind, even if we don’t know who that mind is.

@Shuttle128 said:
“Natural selection fills this role, thus representation can develop without sentience.”

ReplyCan you demonstrate the mechanism that allows Natural Selection to author information? Just saying that it happens is not really good enough. We know that minds author code because it’s proven trillions of times every single day. Mind is the only valid mechanism until another is proven. A random assemblage of chemicals or molecules has never pre-defined, pre-determined, or represented anything beyond that which humans assign it to.

Molecules and Chemicals present cause and effect, creating the matter of the substance humans call water, granite, snowflake, petroleum. But those molecules and chemicals don’t pre-determine any of those things by themselves. In fact, they don’t even know that they have formed those things. They don’t even know themselves. How can they? They have no mind to do such a thing with. They are subject to, and reactive upon the natural forces of the universe. Which of any of them pre-defines for tsunami?

@Shuttle128 said:
“I did ask you to try not to interpret my explanation through Shannon/Yockey definitions of code.”

Who does such a thing? How can I possibly reject what every information science accepts?

@Shuttle128 said:
“Their assumptions are inherent to their theories…”

Sorry Shuttle. They make no assumptions at all. They adhere to proven science that is accepted by every industry that runs our modern day lives. Please provide an example of one industry that utilizes a different communication and information standard than the Shannon/Yockey protocols.

@Shuttle128 said:
”…thus it is impossible for you to see what I am saying without denying the base assumptions of your world view.”

This has nothing to do with “world view”. I adhere to the universally accepted mathematics of Information Theory. I’m not afraid of where that might lead. It is the Atheist who attempts a reduction of Shannon/Yockey/Weiner principles to mere assumption. If it was mere assumption, then why does your thermostat work? If it is assumption, then why can’t we pre-determine the thickness of next years tree rings?

@Shuttle128 said:
“What Shannon, Yockey, and yourself fail to realize is that an author need not be sentient.”

Shannon/Yockey never spoke on the matter as far as I know. I did, based upon the research of Perry Marshall. I’ve been trying to shoot a hole through his argument for nearly 5 years. I can’t… It is rock solid. The more I try to find a problem with it, the more support that I find, across multiple disciplines and numerous industrial and genetic sciences. Support that Perry doesn’t even know about.

http://www.perrymarshallspeaks.com/perryspeaks.html

My problem with Perry is that he automatically associates his research with Christianity and Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, he doesn’t see that it’s much bigger than that. His reference to the Judeo Christian God serve only to keep people from considering the actual science behind his thesis.

Gundark's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies His reference to the Judeo Christian God serve only to keep people from considering the actual science behind his thesis.

If someone does solid science, then the personal beliefs of the scientist shouldn’t be a factor in evaluating the scientist’s work, should it? If someone refuses to objectively evaluate the science of another person based on their personal beliefs, isn’t the problem as much with the evaluator as it is with the science being evaluated? It seems to me that people who are really interested in science should worry about whether the science is right, not who it comes from.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@Gundark

Agreed. I’d like to say our world is just as you describe. Unfortunately I cannot.

I’m grateful to the numerous other scientists, biologists, mathematicians… who land upon the same conclusions as PM. They are wise to keep their personal world view interpretations far away from the evidence at hand.

How awful for a chef to say how something he made actually tastes to me. Just put it out there and let truth speak for itself. How awful to claim it says something that it doesn’t.

Hibernate's avatar

Christianity won’t change but will adapt. If it comes to that I’m sure the exegets will find good ways to re-interpret these things and we’ll just adapt.
On the other hand it all depends which things will be up for discussion or proved wrong.

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