Do you think chastity makes one more spiritually healthy?

I think it’s an appealing concept, to some but these two are not mutually exclusive, to me

You have been expressly designed over millions of years for the purpose of having sexual intercourse in order to procreate. Humans and a few other infra-human primate species also have sexual intercourse for pleasure. Why is it pleasurable? To induce you tto do it more. This makes me wonder why anyone would think it were healthy to ignore or deny one’s fundamental nature.

@pdworkin because people create other things ‘fundamental’ to them like spirituality

You mean that people torture their inherent nature into unrecognizable states in order to comply with the dictates of ancient fairy tales? Oh, I see.

@pdworkin yes, that, and many other things

I don’t think there has ever been a satisfying definition of “spiritual health.” I’ll pass on this one.

I find much happiness in the spirituality of the closeness I experience with the one that I love.

And yes, when I say closeness, I mean dirty raunchy nasty beautiful sex.

This is less about chastity and spiritual healthiness and more about the attack on american materialism, with which there is much fault but it has nothing to do with sex.

All sex is an indulgence and a pleasure, there is no superior sex cause you choose not to have it. It’s like saying we should all starve ourselves so that we can enjoy the pleasure of eating.

Sorry, but its fucking retarded.

What is the “spirit”?

There are so many different takes on what it is and what it needs and what it wants and who owns it and where it comes from and where it goes, how can anyone decide that one of those takes on it is the correct one? Obviously, in order for the human race to continue, some people need to have sexual intercourse, so it is impossible for the ultimate goal to involve complete sexual abstinence, otherwise there would be no humans and there would be no “point” to any of this in the first place. The sexual organs do not exist so they can not be used.

I’m not sure if you meant all sex or just non-procreative sex, though.

I’m not sure, but I know I’d be more satisfied with myself spiritually if I had waited until we were married to jump his bones.

Lets not glorify the Indians too much, now. It is certainly a beautiful culture, but it is also a culture that roundly fails to care for it’s least fortunate in spite of great wealth at the top (like America) and it is trying very hard to be an industrial, productive powerhouse (like America [was]).

If by spirituality you mean aesthetics in the street, you’d be right. If by spirituality you mean open opposition to any racial or caste distinctions, both legally and in practice, you’d be wrong.

India is a great place from what I hear, but it’s not the end-all-be-all of spiritual enlightenment. There’s a little buddhanature thriving in every culture.

it apparently doesn’t work for priests.

The quote is trying to explain to the Western mind a concept of Eastern philosophy that is not easy and obvious.

To the Eastern mind, the material world is a fantastic, dazzling, hypnotic illusion, Maya. When we are tempted by Maya, we are being tempted by the earthly delights and many are SO delightful

Being spiritually strong and clear, means that you are not focused on the illusion of Maya. Rather, you are focused on the higher planes of consciousness. Therefore, chastity or celibacy will come easily and naturally, will not be seen as a struggle, and will be associated with higher levels of spiritual attainment.

No. I don’t agree. Why should chastity make one more spiritually healthy? I think the only reason why this idea became popular is because so many of us are mindlessly having sex all the time. Lust is an extremely powerful feeling, and can make one do things which he/she will regret later. I think it’s safe to admit that people having too much sex is not good at all, and so in order to solve this problem, we prescribe an extreme solution (ie not having sex at all).

Everything in moderation my dears and the Earth will be a better place, even sex, especially sex.

@pdworkin: You make a good and generally acceptable point about the sexual drive in humans. However, I have known several people who either don’t enjoy sex much and/or have a lower level of the sexual hormones. They rarely seemed interested and as time went on, seemed to forgo all sexual experiences. (I wanted to finally use “forwent,” but it seemed ponderous.)

Lack of libido in men is rarer, apparently, than in women, and is different from erectile disfunction.

I think she he goes by Chaz now.

But the people you describe don’t appear to be fighting a sexual nature for “spiritual” reasons. It sounds more as if they are becoming comfortable with where they fit on the spectrum.

Physical joy is normal and will lead to a healthier spirit. No sex is abnormal and seems to defy the programming of the human species. But no doubt one can be happy without it, but in all probability happier with it..I speak for only myself, of course.

@AstroChuck that’s true

@dannyc: Pdworkin describes the spectrum of human desire and libido. Some people simply don’t have the hormonal drive, and lead contented and productive lives anyway.

@gailcalled . True, but they would be in the vast minority. I would postulate they have altered their brain synaptic firings to regions of existence that can mask out the urge to sexual drives. Or if the drive has been reduced due to hormonal changes, then they are simply at a different, abnormal setting. Also, we can learn much from people who can discipline or alter their behaviours where other interesting dynamics shape themselves. I am absolutely certain that they can be happy, but it would take a conscious effort to do so and an awareness.

@dannyc: I am no Endocrinologist, but I think that you are oversimplifying sexual drives. People with low drives are not necessarily abnormal; they have low or no libido.

@pdworkin Some people choose to view themselves as more than mere biological tools and seek to connect with the Absolute, a spiritual transcendence and understanding that is beyond the realm of the physical. At least, so did the guy Maugham wrote a novel about.

@InspecterJones I’m pretty sure “dirty raunchy nasty beautiful sex” would be incomparable to the illumination received from becoming one with the ultimate reality. That’s the point this young man tries to make. He doesn’t need to be tied down by any kind of human closeness or physical enjoyment. He found himself in his solitude, focusing on his own soul and its connection to a higher power.

@le_inferno

But is that supposed to be a goal for all humans? I don’t understand how it can be the perfect solution, since that would mean no one would ever procreate and no one would ever form relationships. Is it just then supposed to be for a select few?

@le_inferno Your answer requires us to accept the existence of some mode of being other than the empirical. That devolves into a religious argument, but clearly, I don’t believe that any suce thing exists, especially since those feelings can be evoked by temporal-lobe electro-stimulation.

@pdworkin you know we, as scientists, don’t know much about the brain, actually

We do know that we can induce feelings of spiritual transcendence through TL stim.

@pdworkin sure, in some people, and sure for centuries shamans have been basically getting high on fumes and all that…but it didn’t make it any less real for the people that believed in them…think of it this way – gender is a social construct but that doesn’t make one’s gender identity any less of a felt reality but our brains, ourselves aren’t only about us but what others make of us and what others make are all these ways to organize society…spirituality is just such a thing…

I’m sorry, I must be immune. No God, no “higher planes”, no “Trancendence of the Mundane” in my life. I suppose in some circles I would be an object of pity.

@DominicX Well, in the book a lot of the Indian men this guy encountered had families who they left when they grew up to go find spiritual illumination. I believe it was kind of the norm…

@le_inferno

I don’t really understand it, though. Who does the procreation, if not them? Are they supposed to just end it all with themselves? It always seems a little pretentious to me.

@pdworkin don’t know, I don’t run in those circles

There is no chaste nor base, There are those who make a vulgar display of their chastity as well as those who make eroticism holy.

@DominicX when I say they had families, I mean they were married with children.
@pdworkin The man who is written about originally did not know what to believe. He devoted years of his life to gaining knowledge and finding truth, trying to answer these such questions about a higher power. His trip to India confirmed that the soul is “distinct from the body and its senses, distinct from the mind and its intelligence; it is not part of the Absolute, for the Absolute, being infinite, can have no parts, but the Absolute itself. It is uncreated; it has existed from eternity and when at last it has cast off the seven veils of ignorance will return to the infinitude to which it came.”
and: “A God that can be understood is no God. Who can explain the Infinite in words?”

Both explanations that lead me, personally, to believe that the “empirical” cannot explain everything. The “mind and the intelligence” can only take us so far.

@le_inferno
Yes and tantra is all symbolic. ~_~
Pierce the veil and there is no inner or outer

No. I believe that having a healthy outlook on sexuality makes one more in touch with their essence.

On the contrary, with the exception of pedophiles. As long as they remain chaste they can become more spiritually healthy.

@mattbrowne How is that not arbitrary? I mean, I agree with your moral analysis in the sense that pedophilia is not ameliorative, but why, in this discussion, should there be an objection or an exception to a single, common paraphilia?

I think the quote is pretty clear about the need for balance.
“a pleasure rather than a need”

It is when the desires of the body becomes so overwhelming that one is consumed by them that the balance is lost and the spirit blocked.

The quote says that Western culture has lost that balance and is driven by their desire.

Seems pretty correct to me, has anyone seen the news lately? People shouting down their representatives rather than listening to them, people lying and taking money from others for their own benefit, people encouraging a sense of division and otherness rather than unity and oneness…

Hurting children and spiritual health is a contradiction.

Who defines spiritual health? Who defines “hurting”?

Who defines morals and ethics?

@mattbrowne Am I to assume that you are taking this new tack because you now agree with me?

@pdworkin – Not necessarily. Morals and ethical guidelines have to be defined. Secular states rely on elected representatives. They listen to various advisers and come up with good compromises. It’s not so difficult to define pain.

Oh, so waterboarding was an easy call.