Why does Great Britain occupy Northern Ireland?

It doesn’t have to do with profit, but rather protection, protection for the Northern Protestants and as protection for England herself against having an enemy right next to her.

Britain has been in Ireland for nigh on 800 years so part of it is tradition. It started when King Dermott MacMurragh requested Norman and Welsh assistance to recover his throne back in in 1169. His effort ultimately failed when his son was slain as a beast would be slain for market, thus taking the heart out of Dermott. But the connection was forged.

Then, under Henry II, the English began settling in Ireland during the 12th century. This was because the system of male primogeniture in England left too many young men without land. Some were pushed into the Crusades, some to the Church, and some to Ireland. They pushed the locals off the land where necessary and claimed it for themselves. But it wasn’t until 1603 that a victory over the Irish in Ulster allowed Britain complete control of Ireland.

Ulster continued to be a troublesome province, so the English brought in Protestant Scots to farm the land (including a few of my ancestors) as long as they never sold it back to the Irish. Then after the English Civil War, Cromwell paid his troops with more Irish land, confiscated from the Irish who were shunted over to poor quality land in Connaught.

An important reason for the English desire to control Ireland was for Englishmen on Ireland to help defend Britain against raids. Early on it was raids by the Vikings, then problems with the Spanish. In 1798 it was the French that invaded, so that in 1801 England actually melded Ireland and England together as one country. Then, during World War II, the bulk of Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, maintained strict neutrality, leaving England uncertain as to whether she would be safe from invasion from that side.

Britain left Ireland in 1922 after 800 years of occupation, when a peace agreement was made to grant the present day Republic of Ireland autonomy as the Irish Free State, whilst Britain retained control of Northern Ireland.

The descendants of the Protestant Scots in the north wish to retain their connection to Britain and seek protection from the IRA. Thus, Britain cannot simply abandon those people to the not so gentle ways of the worst of the Catholics, and she wants a foothold on Ireland in case some enemy decides to attack from that direction.

Strategically, looking at that land and what lies outside it, how much of an advantage is it really to hold that parcel?

1) It is much easier to attack if you have a foothold on the land, than if you have to go over the sea (not saying the British ever will attack, but they don’t trust the Irish and the feeling is mutual).

2) The Protestants still want protecting from the more violent Catholics. Feelings still run high in a few places but the dead are still just as dead.

3) The British pride themselves on not retreating, and they enjoy keeping up tradition.

So the Irish are a serious threat to the British? I mean no disrespect but I had no idea. In fact the reason I asked the question was I couldn’t picture what major countries would be a threat from that direction.

During World War II they were rather useful at times to the Nazis, although technically neutral. The British haven’t ever forgotten that.

Nowadays all this has become irrelevant, since both the UK and Eire are in the EU. This is more or less the equivalent of Southern and Northern US states right after the civil war. There is still some tension, though not as much as there used to be a couple of decades ago, and the wounds are relatively fresh, with casualties on both sides, which is why the UK cannot just pack up and leave. There are people in the area (Unionists) who feel threatened, and feel safer with the English around. The UK itself has wanted to move out for ages now, and has no “profit” in staying anymore.
Hopefully this is one problem that will be solved easily as years go by, the borders have already disappeared, and people start moving around, mingling more, and marrying each other over the generations. After all, they’re all Irish, and religion is becoming increasingly irrelevant everywhere. It will certainly take many years before the conflict is entirely forgotten and only found in history books, but it will be solved eventually. And the process will be sped up once the UK adopts the Euro (something bound to happen sooner than planned after the latest financial crisis).

Ah, thanks so much. This is very interesting. I had a piss poor education thanks to a teacher who was a bit more interested in authority. She wasn’t very good.

Why do Americans occupy the United States? Many natives have waged war against them.

@mattbrowne – Because most of us either got thrown out of where we came from or left because we didn’t fit in. Thus, there is no place else for us to go, except maybe Australia, but the Aborigines might have some feelings about that.

@Darwin – My point was: two wrongs don’t make a right. When we look at human history migration has always occurred for various reasons. Sometimes it was peaceful, sometimes it was violent. In retrospect the founding of Israel should have been done differently. Many Palestinians lost their homes. So did Germans in Eastern Europe although some of them were opposed to the Nazi ideology. So did some of the Native Americans. So did some of the Catholics in Northern Ireland. If we repeat the mistake of people losing their current homes in 2009 just because in 1948 or 1850 or 1400 the land belonged to someone else the vicious circle of a wrong deed being answered by another wrong deed will never end. The people in Northern Ireland have to learn to become peaceful neighbors. It should not matter at all whether the region belongs to the UK or Ireland.

How does any of this differ from what the Romans and the Huns did to the Celts, and the Normans to the Saxons, and so on and so on?

At a certain point are we not supposed to have evolved beyond that? The Romans, the Huns, the Celts and so on didn’t even know how big the world was or how much land there was.

Exactly, the time of conquests is over. Humanity has more important issues to worry about, like what do we need to change so the Earth can accommodate 9 billion people, all thirsty and hungry and wishing for comfortable lives requiring resources and energy.

@Darwin Hey buddy have you ever heard of something called… MORALS???
And if you have any I would seriously start questioning them. One of the reasons you gave for occupying Northern Ireland is:
“The British pride themselves on not retreating, and they enjoy keeping up tradition.”
Well that sure is a good reason to take land away from its rightful owners!
Ok so I’ve looked this up. And ‘Protestants’ boil down to ‘British who are for taking Northern Ireland from the Irish.’ And ‘Catholic’ boils down to ‘Irish who want Northern Ireland back’.
Hey dude, there’s this REALLY cool thing called evacuation. The protestants can come over to Ireland as tourists and I’m sure they would be MORE THAN HAPPY to greet them with open arms!
Is this seriously the same line of reasoning that the British used when they occupied part of North America?
Oh wow I just spotted this one:
“Britain has been in Ireland for nigh on 800 years so part of it is tradition”
Maybe I read that wrong… Are you saying what I think you’re saying?
Does anyone else agree that keeping land from its rightful owners should be tradition?
Ireland attack Great Britain?....
Yeah… Dude…
Have you ever looked on a map?! It’s a wonder Ireland still exists!
SO this is it? THIS is why Britain remains in Ireland?
Ok So I personally got something that would be beneficial for everyone: The Irish agrees to join the UK in the fight against those oh-so-crazy radical Muslims and the UK agrees to, As it should have many years ago, give Ireland back to the Irish. This would not only help us to point our guns in the RIGHT DIRECTION but it would also encourage, for lack of a better word, friendship between the two nations.
@Darwin do you agree with this solution? Or are you just going to continue to be pure evil?
Ireland belongs to the Irish. Period.

So @w2pow2, dude, do you live on the lands that have always belonged to your ancestors?

And, BTW, personal attacks are frowned upon here at Fluther.

No DUDE I’m an Irish American DUDE what, you don’t like the word ‘DUDE’, DUDE? Well that’s tough… DUDE!
(It was very late and I was very tired when I typed this.)
Hey, normally I would be right there along side you, supporting the British to oppress the land and kill all the Irish bastards is Northern Ireland, if it weren’t for one thing:
The British stick out like a sore thumb!
Just look at poor ole Northern Ireland… No seriously I want you to google image it right now. Do ya see the problem there? Yeah it’s clear to any five-year-old that the British don’t belong there.
Is there any way on God’s great earth that the British can own that small piece of land without stirring a reaction from the Irish?
Now if a British man tries to stand there with one hand holding a British flag and the other on his hip, and a big smile beaming across his face as he proclaims loud and proud: “Sorry, ole chum. This land belongs to the Queen now.” No Irishman is going to be passive. We were here first…. Get the hell off of our land before I get my shotgun.
But ANYWAYS-
@Darwin Do you agree with my solution or not? Or will you continue to cry out: “Long live oppression!”?
Sorry I didn’t mean to attack you personally. You seem like an educated, reasonable fellow. So let’s be reasonable, eh?

@w2pow2 You’re Irish American? Doesn’t that mean you occupy land belonging to the Indians? Human history is full of examples of one nation conquering another. In some cases the difference between the armies was so enormous that it wasn’t even considered a war, but an “exploration” or “discovery”. When the New World was “discovered” a bunch of Europeans simply exterminated the locals, and then shipped over slaves that they had also “discovered” in parts of Africa. None of us are truly indigenous if you go back long enough.

@Jack79 Yeah what Americans did was pretty immoral, wasn’t it? Boy if I saw someone trying to pull off the same dastardly deed I’d want to kick their ass back to the stone age.
Personally I do love America, but I wouldn’t mind living in Ireland either.
Yeah so everyone was a lot less moral in those days. Does that make it any more unjust? What Americans did to the indians is just as bad, just as disgusting, as what the British are doing to the Irish.
Great Britain is Ireland’s next door neighbor. That’s why I want to encourage friendship between the two nations rather than hostility.

“Americans” did nothing to the Indians. Don’t take credit for that crap, you didn’t even exist back then. It was the evil Brits once again. I wouldn’t even say the world was less moral. It’s just that they had a different code of morality. Killing in the King’s name was just, because after all, the King was chosen by God Himself. What the British are doing to the Irish now (nothing basically) is not the same as what the British were doing to the Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and of course native populations worldwide 200,300, or even 400 years ago.
I don’t know if all this can be justified by the fact that others did it too. It probably can’t. But I think that the “occupation of Northern Ireland” is a minor inconvenience compared to the occupation of Northern Cyprus for example (as you may have heard new evidence came to light today concerning the mass slaughter of Greek Cypriots during the Turkish invasion). The problem of Northern Ireland is being solved as we speak, and things are looking good as far as the peace process is concerned. Which cannot be said for the Middle East, for example, where the seeds of future wars are constantly being sown.
I just think that the world had bigger problems back when this was a real problem, and it has bigger problems now that it isn’t. Not to say that everything was fine. There was a lot of hatred and bloodshed all over Ireland, for many generations. But as a species, we’ve done worse.

Yes I agree that there is much worse going on in the world. Like the genocide in Darfur.
But does that mean that this injustice can be overlooked? Me- I say of course not! What the Americans did to the Indians is what the British are doing to the Irish on a much larger scale. But that does not mean that we should just ignore Northern Ireland altogether.
That’s why we need to divide our forces. Irish Nationalists like me will take care of Ireland’s problems while everyone else helps to stop genocide or whatever other injustices there are. Both problems are resolved and everyone’s happy!
What do you mean America had nothing to do with it? Can you give me a link? I’ve never heard of British killing Indians before.
Peace process, eh? Is it one that excludes the option of a united Ireland?
My vision is that, in a couple centuries from now, Ireland will be free from British rule and allies with the UK just as much as the US is. And the previous war between Northern Ireland and the UK will be the laughter of the next generation.
That would be the coolest thing!
Now aint that something worth fighting for?

I meant there was no America back then (talking about 1492, not 1776). And let’s face it, even in 1776 there was no “America” as we know it today. It was just a bunch of colonies that didn’t want to pay their taxes. The genocide started long before the USA became what it is today.

As I said earlier, Ireland and the UK are already more or less one country within the EU. They share common external borders, and have become de facto something very similar to the US states. You won’t see Texans fighting a war against New Mexico in order to change their state borders, will you? Similarly, fighting a “liberation war” to “free Northern Ireland from British occupation” is already obsolete, if not ridiculous. People from 25 different countries, including Catholic Poland, Orthodox Romania and [mainly Atheist] Slovakia are allowed into Ulster. Why should anyone kick the Protestants out?

As the EU becomes (and feels) more and more like a “united states of Europe” such nationalist trends will become obsolete, and only serve a cultural purpose (preserving identity, local art and language, etc). The whole island will become de facto reunited (it already is), but that’s simply because so is everywhere else.

You can already travel between Dublin and Belfast without crossing any national borders. You don’t need a passport, nobody will bother you if you set up business in either city, and you’ll even be using the same coinage in a couple of years. So I don’t see the point in shedding any blood to do something that will happen anyway.

If you’re really looking for a war to fight, go kill some settlers in the West Bank.

@Jack79

America was forming, true, but was still America, with states when we were rear ending the Indians. We had a president. A supreme court that he ignored to let tribes get slaughtered so their land could be taken and treaties broke.

@jack79 “already more or less one country within the EU.”
Did you miss the 3,500 casualties that was the result of trying to keep that from happening? I (And I feel many other Irish feel this way as well) want to preserve the independent Irish culture, not blend it in with the UK.
“Fighting a “liberation war” to “free Northern Ireland from British occupation” is already obsolete, if not ridiculous.”
What did you miss the memo or something? Britain REALLY IS keeping land that isn’t theirs. Are you one of those people that deny the holocaust too?
Maybe you can talk about it so casually when you’re not Irish. But when you are, it makes your blood boil.
Over 3,500 dead and you call it “Ridiculous”...
“You can already travel between Dublin and Belfast without crossing any national borders. You don’t need a passport, nobody will bother you if you set up business in either city, and you’ll even be using the same coinage in a couple of years. So I don’t see the point in shedding any blood to do something that will happen anyway.”
So you’re saying that, in due time, I’ll be able to look on a map and Northern Ireland won’t be plastered with the initials “UK” on it? Are you saying that the British will stop calling Northern Ireland their own?

When did 3,500 die? Last year? Because even if this happened in 2007, it’s old news already.

I’m not saying that in due time you’ll be able to look at a map and Northern Ireland won’t be plastered with the initials “UK” on it. This is already a fact. There is no such thing as “Northern Ireland” even as we speak. Eire and UK are already one country. You can scratch the wounds of the past all you want, but they’ll heal despite your worst intentions. At some point in history this war made sense, and people (on both sides) died for their own reasons. Now these reasons are already gone. It’s no longer a liberation fight. It actually stopped being a liberation fight many decades ago. For the past century or so it’s been nothing more than a vendetta.

I’m not denying that there was a real war in N.Ireland. What I’m saying is that there is no reason for it to continue. This is not just my opinion, it’s the opinion of everybody else, including the IRA. Even the most bloodthirsty IRA fanatic sees no reason to spill any more blood than has already been spilt. But sure, if you insist on restarting a cycle of violence that everybody else has stopped, go ahead.

And don’t get me started on the Holocaust. I bet you’re probably American, and not really Irish. People in Europe have a completely different perception of what really happened in WWII than those who get their info from Hollywood movies. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, just that there is a huge difference between what really happened and what Hollywood says happened

I am wondering why an American with Irish ancestry cares so much about Ireland when they are a citizen of this country which has its own problems? I suggest anyone with such strong opinions about Ireland and its “oppression” should renounce US citizenship immediately and go back home.

@Darwin I’m 18 years old. And I do hope to move to Ireland.
@Jack79 “I bet you’re probably American, and not really Irish.” Are you calling me a liar? Do you think I’m lying about being Irish? I’m not a low-life like a lot of lying bastards that you see on the web.
But you’re saying something else, right? You’re saying that maybe I misunderstood my heritage or don’t quite understand it, right?
My name is Jonathan Jack Allen Fitzpatrick.
I got interested in my Irish heritage not too long ago. I’m trying to make it as an actor so I worked for an independent film maker for awhile. I was supposed to play the part of an Irish librarian, who had the accent to match. So I go on the web and I look at Irish folk songs. It was pretty much downhill from there.
That script was sold thanks to the boneheaded producer, but we did a much smaller script and I played a much smaller part. Keep an eye on youtube for the title: Ten Minutes and you’ll see me in it.
(The script sucked if you ask me.)
“Eire and UK are already one country.”
So is USA and Afghanistan. So is the North Pole and Fairyland .
Look if you can send me a link and give me facts then I won’t deny it, but so far it just sounds completely absurd. The UK does not own Ireland.

“But sure, if you insist on restarting a cycle of violence that everybody else has stopped, go ahead.”
Yes, my lust for blood can be seen in my previous comment:
“The Irish agrees to join the UK in the fight against those oh-so-crazy radical Muslims and the UK agrees to, As it should have many years ago, give Ireland back to the Irish. This would not only help us to point our guns in the RIGHT DIRECTION but it would also encourage, for lack of a better word, friendship between the two nations.”
It’s clear that blood-crazed maniac like me obviously wants destruction in the world!
Oh and I’ve got a big poster of Hitler in my bedroom…
And I got that Communist Manifesto lying around here somewhere…
(I thought I’d beat you guys to the punch)
(Wink Wink)
“Now these reasons are already gone. It’s no longer a liberation fight.”
Can this claim be backed up by facts or are you just starting to pull stuff out of the air now?
When did they go? How did they go?

Oh… PLEASE say you’re calling me a liar so that I can make you eat your words…

LONG LIVE OPPRESSION!!!!!!!
(Insert patriotic music here)
Comeon guys! Let our voices be heard!
LONG LIVE INJUSTICE!!!!!!!!

Ah, I see. The misguided passion of youth.

Well you got the passion part right…
PROVE I’M WRONG!
Who is this man who hath words without knowledge? His name is Darwin.

Oooohhhhh that kinda ticks me off. You say that my passion is ‘misguided’ and you don’t provide ANY facts to prove that I’m wrong in my beliefs.
Ever since I spoke up it looks like you’ve just let jack79 do all the fighting.
But hey it’s not like I’m calling you a coward cause I would never do that on Fluther!
No personal attack here!
:)

Oh and I wanted to get you started on the holocaust. Honestly I’m interested.
So how did it really go?

As I said before, personal attacks are frowned upon here at Fluther.

@Darwin So you’re done? That’s it?
You’re not even going to put up a reasonable argument?

Why? You have already accused me of being immoral and pure evil. I don’t agree, but since I would be arguing with someone who can’t even figure out that I am not a “dude,” what’s the point?

No way…
You’re a girl!?
Well how the hell was I supposed to know that?
I’m sorry. My dad taught me to have more respect for women. Sincere apologies.
“Why? You have already accused me of being immoral and pure evil.”
Why do people usually argue/ disagree? Is it to persuade the person who disagrees? Not usually. Usually they argue to convince the spectators.

There are no spectators.

Oh.
I just looked at the observing members thing. You’re right…
Well maybe there will be spectators in the future.

@Darwin – I have been watching and @w2pow2 has convinced me of a few things, but probably not what he meant to.

@Bri_L What have I convinced you of?

Oh I just realised you’re the same troll that wanted to pick a fight about the Holocaust.

The USA and Afghanistan are two countries. You have to show your passport to go from one to another. The equivalent of what you’re saying would be the USA and Hawaii. So yes, if you feel the Hawaiians are an oppressed people that demand justice, maybe you have a point. An even more valid point would be the injustices against native Americans.

Again, I am not denying the historical events. What I am saying is that the cycle of violence has ended, and most people (even in the IRA) have denounced violence and are trying to find peaceful solutions instead. The reasons that brought the violence in the first place have ceased to exist.

Going back to your Holocaust question, why don’t we start a war against Germany for all their crimes? Not only Israel vs Germany, but also France, Poland, Russia (and all the other former Soviet republics), the list is endless. Yet guess what? Just 60 years after WWII, not only have the French and Germans stopped the fighting, but they even have a common army. And of course they both belong to NATO, an alliance that incorporates both Germany and Italy, the former Axis foes, as well as foes from WWI and the times of the Austrohungarian Empire. Greeks and Turks are still mourning their dead from Cyprus (with thousands of people still missing), yet they serve side-by-side in Kossovo.

Eire and the UK belong to a thing called the European Union. They are two of 25 different states in a country with common borders and parliament. And they actually chose this.

When did the European Union start?

It began back in 1952 and has been enlarging ever since. The UK and Ireland both have been members since 1973.

So back to my former statement: The UK does not own Ireland!
Ireland and the UK are not the same country because of the EU. Does that mean that Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, West Germany, Ireland, and Great Britain are all the same country? Of course not!
Unless I’ve missed something incredible. And if I have then please oh please provide air-tight evidence!
France is proud to call itself an independent country.
So is Belgium
So is Ireland
So is the UK
So is Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands etc.

It says on wikipedia: “The European Union (EU) is an economic and political union of 27 member states, located primarily in Europe”
Nowhere does it say that the EU is a united country.
Perhaps my definition of ‘country’ is wrong, but at dictionary.com it says:
“country- a tract of land considered apart from any geographical or political limits”
Look, I acknowledge the fact that I am a very simple man. So if I am getting the wrong idea, then please, show me the light.

@w2pow2 – people might be more open to your point if you:

a. Postured less. That just stinks of “I hope they don’t respond or grow tired so I at least appear right by concession.” If you are right then why so uppity? You just keep making your points, with evidence to back them up. Let the truth come out.

b. We’re less sarcastic. Pointed intellectual commentary is far more valuable than what I would estimate to be about 9th grade sarcasm.

c. Didn’t tip your hat to some of the limitations in your thinking i.e.

“No way…
You’re a girl!?
Well how the hell was I supposed to know that?
I’m sorry. My dad taught me to have more respect for women. Sincere apologies.
“Why? You have already accused me of being immoral and pure evil.”
Why do people usually argue/ disagree? Is it to persuade the person who disagrees? Not usually. Usually they argue to convince the spectators.”

It is nice to know that the person one is debating with would behave differently depending on what the bathroom door is labeled. Also, one argues or debates to try and get someone to see their point. Of course it includes the person your debating. Otherwise there is no point.

@Bri_L I agree with almost everything you said accept for one thing:
“Also, one argues or debates to try and get someone to see their point. Of course it includes the person your debating. Otherwise there is no point.”
I would like my opponent to be immovable in his/her beliefs. They tend to throw more at you than the fragile or un-bi-est opponent, thus reassuring the spectators that your point of view is the truth.

@w2pow2 – I am not sure I follow you on that, sorry.

@Bri_L You said that persuading the person you’re debating is part of the reason why you’re debating in the first place, right? I don’t look at it that way. I don’t want an opponent who can be persuaded to change his/her beliefs. I want an opponent who is fixed and immovable in his/her beliefs. Close-minded opponents tend to be a lot more argumentative.
In my opinion, a heated argument is more persuasive than a light discussion.
Kinda like baseball. The faster the pitcher throws, the more distance the batter will launch the ball if he manages to make contact.

The European Union (EU) is an economic and political union of 27 member states, located primarily in Europe.

They do not own each other, and they do not fight with each other. They have COMMON BORDERS. In case you don’t understand what this means, it means that the west side of Eire is the west border of the EU. The east border of the EU (and also Eire) is not in Ulster. It’s in Poland.

To go back to Ireland: I have said this already, but will stress it once again: the reasons for the original struggle have become obsolete. Once upon a time people of a different Christian denomination could not get decent jobs in N.Ireland and were discriminated against (and this was particularly true when it was part of Eire and the Protestants were treated as “traitors”). Nowadays I could go to Belfast and start my own business and nobody would stop me. And I’m not even Irish. Similarly, someone could leave Cork and go open a business in London and his employees would be not just English, but also Germans, Maltese and Lithuanians. Why would such a person want to wage war now?

@w2pow2 – true, but you will never know if they can be changed unless you try.

@Jack79 Do you acknowledge that your previous comment which stated that “Eire and UK are already one country” is false?
“They do not own each other, and they do not fight with each other.”
They do not fight with each other? Let me ask you another question- When did Ireland join the EU and when did the IRA agree to stop the fighting? (And please answer these questions)
And you claim that the eastern border of Eire is in Poland? Did I miss something amazing again?
Again please provide a link with evidence.
Now lets get something straight here- The East border of Eire is NOT in Poland. The border of the EU is in Poland (If the EU even HAS borders considering that it is not a country but rather an ‘economic and political union.’ )
Again unless you can provide a link with evidence than I can’t take your statements seriously.
I mean, this is someone who said that Eire and the UK were one country, which was blatantly and obviously FALSE. So can you please provide evidence to back up your statements.
”...Open a business in London and his employees would be not just English, but also Germans, Maltese and Lithuanians”
Really? I guess I just missed the part where the UK owned part of Germany, Malta, and Lithuania. Because God knows that it would be COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT If otherwise.
Since I can’t get you to understand this very simple concept, I’ll say it in the form of a question that I expect you to graciously answer:
Does the UK claim to own land in N. Ireland that does not rightfully belong to them?
That land does NOT belong to Great Britain. It belongs to the Irish.
The reason that the UK owns N. Ireland is because of an imperialistic conquest 800 years ago. You would think that the morals of today would correct or punish that injustice.
It is an injustice that everybody else accept the Irish can shrug off because they think it is such a small and insignificant thing.
Make no mistake: The reason for the war in N. Ireland was always correction of an injustice. The fact that the English were unfair to them was just a whole lot of fuel to the fire.
800 years ago the English seemed to think: “Hey- since those guys over to the west of us have a weak military, that means I can kill them and take their land!”

I refuse to have a conversation with you. Good luck figuring out the world, I have better things to do with my time, sorry.

@Jack79 – GA

@Jack79 Yeah GA!
Boy I wish more people in the world would just walk out on a debate when the other guy is looking to actually learn something!
So lets raise our glasses to refusal of enlightenment!
Here’s to a clueless and ignorant tomorrow!

And we were so close too! If you had just gone one step further and provided some good solid facts then I would have proven wrong in my beliefs!
Maybe you gave up because you couldn’t provide a good counter-argument…
But what I fear most is that you actually had a good counter argument but you were too damn lazy to share it!

So shall we raise our glasses to ignorance?

I am Professor of History at King’s college and have lived in and as far as I know have entirely English ancestors.
Does the woman who answered the initial question have any idea how many catholic Irish fought in the second world war? Although the government remained neutral, due to unprecedented financial constraints; many, many thousands from the Southern parts of Ireland fought and died, many of these fought as volunteers.
I appreciate you other comments, but unfortunately it is has weakened your view, which is ignorant as a result of its emotional pathos.

You’re saying that logic and passion cannot co-exist? If you can see any flaw in my logic then please point it out.
Please don’t get me wrong- I do appreciate your comment. I was hoping that this discussion would not die.
Which side did the Southern Irish fight for? I heard that Ireland supported Hitler at the time.
And what is your view on the British occupied Northern Ireland?
And I also heard that Ireland once fought a civil war due to religious differences. Or perhaps a religious cleansing. Would you happen to know anything about that?

I wouldn’t know anything about religious cleansing, I would imagine that it was more to do with devolution.
I was simply pointing out that Irish citizens fought for the British army – its not a matter of hearsay.
Apart from being scattered throughout numerous regiments, I believe there is a regiment called the ‘Irish guards’, other evidence is to be found in numerous sources, enlistment records being one.

“devolution”? I hope you don’t mean what I think you mean.
And you called my view “Ignorant”. I would expect you to be a proper gentleman and expand on that little comment…
And what is your view on the British occupied Northern Ireland?
And why don’t we toss in the American Revolution, just for fun. What do you think about the American Revolution?

Devolution – power given from the central government, that is how the free state was created, was it in 1922 I believe.
I am uncertain as to what the discussion is – my view on British occupied Northern Ireland would be that the word ‘occupation’ is far too strong. Would you say Scotland or Wales were British occupied?
Scotland has its own governance with regard to parliament and law, Wales does not.

N.B I believe my original response was in fact directed at ‘Darwin’, who answered the original question.

British presence in Northern Ireland. Liberation, occupation, picnic, whatever you want to call it. What is your view on it?
The fact remains that Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Is this justified?
And when the Free State was created, citizens of that Free State had to swear allegiance to the British crown. How can that possibly be morally justified?

It seems you have your own agenda here young man.

@Halebaron With all due respect, will you please answer the question?

It would be my pleasure. What is the question?

“British presence in Northern Ireland. Liberation, occupation, picnic, whatever you want to call it. What is your view on it?
The fact remains that Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Is this justified?
And when the Free State was created, citizens of that Free State had to swear allegiance to the British crown. How can that possibly be morally justified?”
Pardon me- question(s)

There isn’t a British presence in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. The majority of people living there want it to be this way and that is how it is. It is the same as Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands. Since the 2nd World War the UK has withdrawn from dozens of countries which want to govern themselves. I am sure that if/when Northern Ireland wants to do so it can. The same with Scotland and its nationalist party’s ambition.

On the Free State and swearing allegiance to the crown; it wasn’t morally justifiable which is why De Valera refused to do it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Valera

The world is imperfect; Darfur, Israel/Palestine, Kashmir, Kurdistan but thankfully force of arms is generally frowned upon as a means of resolving conflict nowadays.

And yet force of arms is sometimes necessary, as President Obama explained in his Nobel Peace Prize Acceptance Speech.

their are more Irish in the British army from the republic of Ireland than from northern Ireland. why would the rep Irish join if they where been oppressed in the north?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7749793.stm

like you my heritage is Irish my name is Brendan Donald Hickey which is Irish but i will always be English, i was born in England, i have English accent, culture and traditions and have a sense of belonging to England, i’m a catholic and its never an issue! their are catholic churches all over england and we live in peace. you should embrace America and stop been Irish American and you will get a sense of belonging and happiness.

Ireland has only ever been united under the British. before that is was divided into 4 KINGDOMS, ulster has never been a republic and why should they be forced to adopt the republican ideology? i would support the unification of Ireland if they adapted our monarchy.

btw you do realized that England, Wale and Scotland are still different countries in the UK they have their own laws, culture and stuff all they basically share is economic, military and foreign affairs.

Well I dont think I can stop being Irish American…
To be honest, although I like my ancestory a lot, I like America even more.
Nothing beats living in the USA, plain and simple!
And I’ve never thought of England as currently being controled by a monarchy. I thought the Queen was just a figurehead.

Britain does not occupy or own Northern Ireland, it is owned by the people of NI, the majority of the people in NI vote in free elections every 4 years (supervised by the USA government) and at the last vote voted unionist by about 60% to 40%.

NI was kept in 1922 in order to attempt to avoid a civil war, which happened in the south anyway.

Personnally i would like to be rid of the place, Britain would be better off without NI, and the so called unionist are as bad if not worse than the republicans, however we can’t until they vote for it. It is still unlikely as both the North and the Republic are economic basket cases at the moment and could not afford it.

The most important thing is most people in Ireland just want peace.

And yes the USA is a great country, have you moved to Ireland yet??

And yes the Queen is just figure head.

Some Irish and the IRA did help the Nazis, but most did not, over 100,000 joined the British army and many others sold food and other products to Britain or worked in British factories

I thought about it and I’ve decided I’m going to grow old in the USA.

I was just quickly browsing this forum when I came accross this thread, it may be outdated but i do want to leave a point if this this the end, I am an Irishman, I have been born and raised in Northern Ireland. With all my heart I want a united Ireland, to be “free” from british occupation. But.. I would never, never force those who live there to leave, i’m not british, i’m not saxon, i’m not english, but there are those in my country who are. The dark days of the troubles are behind us. I’m sorry w2pow2— you were not there, your father was not dragged into the street at night and held in interment camps. your civil rights were not violated and abused. ours were, and yet i can say that i can live beside the british in my country and let the peace process continue. slowly and surly nationalist support grows, and with recent dissident attacks on security forces, popular support for armed resistance is very low. I do NOT support in any way dissident attacks on security forces. those men are traitors to the cause of a united ireland and thier arrogance will be our undoing. the land of Nothern Ireland belongs to the Irish, it always will, its not important who lives where, people have made thier homes there we do not have the right to tell them to go. We will not be like the black and tans of 1920. important is that we keep our culture alive, our music, our language, our books. If you want to support the Irish cause, learn irish and then it teach people.. then learn the whistle.. then enjoy your cluture in a good pub. Good luck lads.

I got as far as the ‘more violent Catholics’ someone posted and had to laugh. Ever hear of the UDA and its many cohorts? How about the atrocities committed by the Black and Tans. I will say there are atrocities committed on both sides, one is not more innocent than the other, but as far as I am concerned and I consider myself somewhat of an Anglophile, the Brits need to get the fuck out of Ireland and that includes Ulster. As the song goes “and we will fight you for 800 more”.

To clear the statement up- I am not suggesting that the people whom live in Ulster pack up and leave, but am using the term Brits to indicate the occupational government and forces.

Many Protestant and Catholic stood together for a free Ireland in the past, as it should be so again.